EU exit - So folks what are you all thinking?

First topic message reminder :

Just curious to know what you all think and what way you will be voting.

Will it have an affect on rugby (from point of view of bringing in non-British players, coaches for example).
Will sterling devalue so that it will be impossible for English clubs to compete with French Euro clubs
What about Scotland? Will this push them out of the UK?
How about Ulster fans - are you looking forward to the reinstallation of the Border?

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:For me I'm deeply concerned about the direction the EU is moving on and utterly appalled at the direction the UK is moving in, and while the rest of Ireland is a debt colony that has been granted limited probation shacking up with them isn't exactly pushing my buttons either.

It seems either way the referendum goes, the current status quo that has allowed this little window of stability and a fragile peace will be eventually sacrificed in the name of Scottish or English populism. Worrying times. We are truly on our own! And when you're governed by the slow learners class of British and Irish politics thats just as alarming as it sounds.

Who are the smart voices in Europe?  MEPs?  I'll give you some pictures and profiles of some of them... it's like a version of that show that a few might remember called EuroTrash.

Or maybe we should think that the European Commission are the ones - the better idealists than our own shabby politicians at home.  I'd still prefer the local idiots - at least I can keep my eye on them.

Where are the smart people that might 'Lead' if only the eejits left the arena?

Probably internet forums, I'd say 

God! I'm too busy now to take over Europe. Meself and billy have agreed to take over Ireland hen Joe goes.

Just found this sentence on a job ad in Switzerland:

Due to work permit restrictions we can unfortunately only consider applications from EU or Swiss citizens as well as current work-permit holders for Switzerland.

Note "Norway" is not covered.

Just a reminder, the right to live and work (but not immediately claim benefits) is not just a cost to the UK. It's a benefit.

Alex_Germany wrote:Just found this sentence on a job ad in Switzerland:

Due to work permit restrictions we can unfortunately only consider applications from EU or Swiss citizens as well as current work-permit holders for Switzerland.

Note "Norway" is not covered.

Just a reminder, the right to live and work (but not immediately claim benefits) is not just a cost to the UK. It's a benefit.

Yup.

So it'll be a mass transportation of British workers out of prime jobs all across Europe the day after a Bex-it?

In this sort of thing I would normally go against whatever the Tories wanted (including 'Tories' like UKIP). Unfortunately they want both sides but it feels like the 'worse' Tories want out. Anyone know which way Hunt is leaning? That might be the nail.

I don't know enough about the economics to make a fully considered decision in that regard. But I know enough about modelling to know that economic models are about as good as those for the weather and are largely based on replicating historical trends rather than being truly predictive. So I discount those (although expect there will be at minimum great turmoil and uncertainty in the short term).

So I'm learning towards staying but I can't shake that 'I wonder what this big red button does?' desire. Similar with the Scottish vote (I wanted them to go, just to see what would happen), I wouldn't be dead against it. And yes, I know that if it goes badly (and perhaps even if it goes well) a lot of people lives will be ruined.

But to end, the main reason for staying is that without the EU oversight, I'm pretty terrified about what a UK elected government would do. I'm clearly not in the majority in this country in general and worry about human rights issues.

Voting remain.

Alex_Germany wrote:Just found this sentence on a job ad in Switzerland:

Due to work permit restrictions we can unfortunately only consider applications from EU or Swiss citizens as well as current work-permit holders for Switzerland.

Note "Norway" is not covered.

Just a reminder, the right to live and work (but not immediately claim benefits) is not just a cost to the UK. It's a benefit.

Huge demand for Irish passports at the moment. They have taken on 200 extra staff issuing them. People from Northern Ireland will have the best of both worlds - eligible for both passports.

As far as I know, 4th generation British people are eligible for an Irish passport (i.e., if you have one Irish great grandparent you can get an Irish passport).

Seems there will be huge problems for British retirees in EU countries.

HammerofThunor wrote:In this sort of thing I would normally go against whatever the Tories wanted (including 'Tories' like UKIP).  Unfortunately they want both sides but it feels like the 'worse' Tories want out.  Anyone know which way Hunt is leaning? That might be the nail.

You see this is part of the issue. It shouldn't be a factor which politicians, or anyone else, is on what side. Ultimately everyone is on their own side.

Being part of the EU influences all our lives in the UK to some degree but it's for each individual to decide whether that influence is more negative or positive.

No economist or politician can predict the future, in or out of the EU. However as the default position is that we are in the EU and have been for most of our lifetimes then it should be for the leave campaign to outline how life will be outside and they cannot do it.

They cannot make guarantees that shortfall in EU subsidies and grants will be underwritten to poorer regions of the UK.

They cannot guarantee what the economic impact will be.

They cannot guarantee which trade agreements will be formed, with which countries and over which time frame, and to what conditions they will entail -we know any deal with the EU will involve free movement of people.  

They cannot outline the legal implications as a lot of our laws are tied to EU directives - so we will need new legislation in a lot of areas.

What is guaranteed is that we will leave the single market and lose all the associated benefits, which is bad for consumers and certainly bad for businesses which trade with the EU. It definitely won't be good for travel to and from the EU.

There's a lot of speculation but plenty of facts out there and they don't come from Cameron or Johnson. Some of the blatant lies in this campaign, by both sides but especially leave totally beggars belief.

rodders wrote:

No economist or politician can predict the future, in or out of the EU. However as the default position is that we are in the EU and have been for most of our lifetimes then it should be for the leave campaign to outline how life will be outside and they cannot do it.

They cannot make guarantees that.....

They can guarantee one thing that the Remain Camp can't, rodders - they can guarantee that it was their negative opinion of the EU that provoked a Referendum on EU Membership. Now that may not be enough of a number to achieve a Leave result but that is not a number or 'lobby group' that can be easily shuffled away back into a corner marked 'Irrelevant'. And whatever the outcome, it's the Sceptics that gave the British People a direct say in this Project EU that has been developing and developing these last 40 years or so. Are they to be blamed too for giving the British Public a voice the British Public didn't want to have?

They forced a British Prime Minister to hold a Referendum on the issue against his will. That to me is Democracy putting its best foot forward.

And yes, the Bex-iters can't prove a future outside the EU any more than Neville Chamberlain could guarantee 'Peace in Our Time' with a slip of paper signed by a man who burned books. The future is out there - let's hope you all can convince another Prime Minister in the future to actually hold a Referendum again if the future EU proves to be less attractive than the present seems to be.

SecretFly wrote: And whatever the outcome, it's the Sceptics that gave the British People a direct say in this Project EU that has been developing and developing these last 40 years or so.  Are they to be blamed too for giving the British Public a voice the British Public didn't want to have?

Well it's not a voice if the campaign is built around myths and lies - this is the opposite of democracy - indoctrination on a scale not seen since the national socialists in Germany.

I have no issue with someone wanting to leave the EU and casting their democratic right to vote on it but I have an issue with the scaremongering, lies and hyperbole - the scapegoating of the EU and in particular immigrants for the failings of the domestic government policy in the UK and general issues within the global economy.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote: And whatever the outcome, it's the Sceptics that gave the British People a direct say in this Project EU that has been developing and developing these last 40 years or so.  Are they to be blamed too for giving the British Public a voice the British Public didn't want to have?

Well it's not a voice if the campaign is built around myths and lies - this is the opposite of democracy - indoctrination on a scale not seen since the national socialists in Germany.

I have no issue with someone wanting to leave the EU and casting their democratic right to vote on it but I have an issue with the scaremongering, lies and hyperbole - the scapegoating of the EU and in particular immigrants for the failings of the domestic government policy in the UK and general issues within the global economy.

No it's democracy, and a Nation State having its own say.  A voice you don't agree with being allowed a voice is democracy - not myths and not lies - an opposing view.  

As for National Socialists............:





Take a listen to this guy all of him, especially the second one.  Remind you of someone?  Yeah, let's save the peoples of Europe from themselves by taking them over.

Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Fuhrer.

The Myth is that the fears are a Myth, rodders.

Britain would be better off leaving the EU. I'm all for smaller, governments and decentralisation.

Voted remain.

Good for you Notcho.

IN

Anyone else seen this? Shocking stuff.
Clear evidence of vote rigging.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGNzD0XEjnM

this is the smartest thing I've seen you guys do in a long time. Europe needs you more than you need Europe.

aucklandlaurie wrote:this is the smartest thing I've seen you guys do in a long time. Europe needs you more than you need Europe.

The UK is like a mini EU - a lot of dissent within the UK as well - how long is that union going to last? One thing for sure, this is a terrible result for the people of the island of Ireland.

Brave New World eh?

Without the bogeyman of Europe what are the far right going to use as a Trojan horse come next election.

Bit disappointed but what the heck, it's not a declaration of war (not yet anyway).

Bugger...

Salary cap on Premiership clubs will be shooting up now they have an extra £350 million a week to spend on wages.

Well well well, just goes to show that if turkey is dumb enough and you show him enough propaganda he'll vote for xmas after all.

350 million extra for the NHS? Jesus wept, it would funny if it wasn't so serious.

Congratulations British people. It's a great day for Europe because it's a massive blow to the EU superstate agenda.

You say British people, you mean English people. We're getting dragged out against our will by English nationalists.

profitius wrote:Congratulations British people. It's a great day for Europe because it's a massive blow to the EU superstate agenda.

The majority of people in 2 out of the 4 states that make up the Union voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU and nearly half the people in the UK as a whole voted to remain.

If this was a general election there would be a hung parliament and fresh election until a significant majority for one side was declared.

At least the EU provided a veto to protect member states - this is a blow to democracy not for it.

I really feel for people in Northern Ireland

Overwhelmingly voted to remain, but now face the prospect of a border being put up within Ireland

Not sure of the politics in Ireland at the moment, but I have seen that Sinn Fein have called for a vote on Irish unity

Given the result in Scotland, I'd just like to thank David Cameron and cronies for pandering to the UKIP idiots at the last election, and in all quite likelihood, facilitating the break up of the United Kingdom

Remember that less than 75% registered to vote, so 25% were undecided plus 48% who voted remain so the majority of the UK did not vote to leave.

This has been a mess by the government - there should have been a clear majority required, at least 55% and majorities in each region, by the leave vote to change the status quo.

When the good Friday agreement referendum was held for example, majorities were needed by both communities and on both sides of the border to ensure minority rights were respected.

How can you implement such a fundamental and permanent change to the national constitution on a 4% majority with a quarter of the population abstaining from voting?

Notch wrote:You say British people, you mean English people. We're getting dragged out against our will by English nationalists.

English and Welsh.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:You say British people, you mean English people. We're getting dragged out against our will by English nationalists.

English and Welsh.

Blood Welsh, they'll be wanting out of the pro12 next.

What am I thinking?

sh*t!

That's what I am thinking....

rodders wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:You say British people, you mean English people. We're getting dragged out against our will by English nationalists.

English and Welsh.

Blood Welsh, they'll be wanting out of the pro12 next.

Phil is smiling anyway. His plan is a circuitous one but bit by bit it's coming together nicely. Now all he needs is a war between China and Japan and the Pro12 will be no more.

The irony of the Welsh situation is that I wonder who is actually going to invest in Wales now all that EU 'convergence' funding will be a thing of the past.

The UK?

SecretFly wrote:The UK?

Too busy spending on the NHS....

Well at least they are spending. Try being sick in a supposed Pro-Euro Nation like Ireland

I joke of course - Don't try it... avoid being sick!

Thanks EU

Too busy spending on the NHS....

This is a blow for the areas outside of the M25, the further you get from Westminster the less ££££ you get spent on you, that's where the EU helped, but blow me daft it's the wooliebacks that have benefitted the most that voted us out of Europe, as Rodders mentioned, Turkeys voting for Christmas.

TrailApe wrote:

Too busy spending on the NHS....

This is a blow for the areas outside of the M25, the further you get from Westminster the less ££££ you get spent on you, that's where the EU helped, but blow me daft it's the wooliebacks that have benefitted the most that voted us out of Europe, as Rodders mentioned, Turkeys voting for Christmas.

yep. Seems there is a lot of thought that the vote was as much if not more a reflection on lack of leadership presented by the government and a lack of connection between the government and regions outside of the M25. That plus a failure to present sensible arguments by either side throughout the campaign has led to a victory for the stupid factions.

TrailApe wrote:

Too busy spending on the NHS....

This is a blow for the areas outside of the M25, the further you get from Westminster the less ££££ you get spent on you, that's where the EU helped, but blow me daft it's the wooliebacks that have benefitted the most that voted us out of Europe, as Rodders mentioned, Turkeys voting for Christmas.

In some way I have to applaud such a political masterclass in deception.

Compare:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/01/mapped-where-in-the-uk-receives-most-eu-funding-and-how-does-thi/

to:-

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36616028

Unbelievable.

125K odd signatures so far:-

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Well that's Putin and Trump who support our choice. Go us.

Every day that passes and article 50 isn't invoked the less likely it ever will be.
The referendum is in no way legally binding on the government

Every day that passes and article 50 isn't invoked the less likely it ever will be.
The referendum is in no way legally binding on the government

HammerofThunor wrote:Well that's Putin and Trump who support our choice. Go us.

Kim Jong-un too.

I still haven't found a silver lining. I haven't seen a single explanation from a Leave voter anywhere that explains how we'll now be better off, just vague and poorly-defined statements about immigration and a sense of delight that they've given the middle classes and establishment a kicking. The establishment are of course highly adept at making these things work for them and against the people who are so happy about this. It's hard to see how they'll be better off in the short or long term. I don't blame the voters, I blame the government for letting the communities that were strongest for leave wither on the vine.

I also keep seeing statements like 'the EU makes 50% of our laws' which is genuinely alarming when you realise that people uncritically believe these things. A very complex truth stands no chance against a biased oversimplification.

Northern Ireland and Scotland now need their own referenda. A border poll in NI is extremely unlikely to happen, but I support the need for it even if I don't intend to vote for unity. Without the European Union the whole political settlement in NI is called into question. We now need a conversation on a new settlement. Scotland should and will have a second referendum. The UK they voted to stay in is about to disappear forever.

Well if latest rumours are to be believed Boris and grove want a deal like Norway's.
So still the freedom of movment of people
Still pay into the EU
Still bound by the majority of us law
Still able to apply for er funding (but a lot harder to get)

But absolutely no say in how Europe works.
Well played leave voters you have got nowhere and have less say

I'm moving to Cuba

carpet baboon wrote:Well if latest rumours are to be believed Boris and grove want a deal like Norway's.
So still the freedom of movment of people
Still pay into the EU
Still bound by the majority of us law
Still able to apply for er funding (but a lot harder to get)

But absolutely no say in how Europe works.
Well played leave voters you have got nowhere and have less say

I'm moving to Cuba

Yes, of course- because they never had strong feelings about the EU either way, they just had strong feelings about running the Tory party. They've played on the fears and insecurities of many like a fiddle and now one of them is about to land their dream job.

Notch wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Well if latest rumours are to be believed Boris and grove want a deal like Norway's.
So still the freedom of movment of people
Still pay into the EU
Still bound by the majority of us law
Still able to apply for er funding (but a lot harder to get)

But absolutely no say in how Europe works.
Well played leave voters you have got nowhere and have less say

I'm moving to Cuba

Yes, of course- because they never had strong feelings about the EU either way, they just had strong feelings about running the Tory party. They've played on the fears and insecurities of many like a fiddle and now one of them is about to land their dream job.

Wonder how all the people who voted out to "take back control" will react to the news.
Could be the shortest promotion in history.

I am devastated and angry. Its an utter disaster and will cause nothing but trouble. Cameron is an utter pillock for getting us into this mess. My hatred of the foreign owned press who do so much to distort public discourse in the UK has increased several notches.

the only signs of hope are that Scotlands route to independence and remaining in the EU seems clearer and the tory party might well tear themselves apart.

Its the single worst political event in my lifetime. I loathe what England has become.

Notch wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Well if latest rumours are to be believed Boris and grove want a deal like Norway's.
So still the freedom of movment of people
Still pay into the EU
Still bound by the majority of us law
Still able to apply for er funding (but a lot harder to get)

But absolutely no say in how Europe works.
Well played leave voters you have got nowhere and have less say

I'm moving to Cuba

Yes, of course- because they never had strong feelings about the EU either way, they just had strong feelings about running the Tory party. They've played on the fears and insecurities of many like a fiddle and now one of them is about to land their dream job.

Notch is 110% spot on. BJ (!!?) and MG couldn't give a flying Falkirk about the EU, they just want the bragging rights in their old age of having been Tory leader / PM.

In the aftermath and post-event interviews its becoming more and more evident that for a large part of the out voters this was a protest vote, a vote against the status quo, a vote against 'The Man'.

Others of the Outers obviously believed that the UK, Britain, England The Shires are better off without Johny Foriegner telling them what to do with their house servants, however most of these are of an age were seeing in the next RWC is only a possibility, they have stuck out at those nasty Yropeens and job done can go back to dreaming about their childhood days on a tea plantation in the foothills of Kashmir. 'Shame about that upstart Momtbatten giving them independence, it was such a nice place, gone to the dogs now I hear...'

Meanwhile the unfranchised and disposed are wrecking the place and shrugging their shoulders - 'Can't get much worse for me can it'?

If only they knew, my one of my Granddads was a bit of a waster and back in the day was rounded up with a bunch of other similarly work challenged blokes and shipped up to the wilds of Northumberland to live in huts (they were called Instructional Centres) and create Kielder Forest.

Now I'm a great believer in young people, but can you imagine the trauma a modern twenty something of today is going to experience if they are press ganged into a similar 'strategic' project? and given the inclination of those in charge at the minute, these types of schemes would be a whizzo idea to get the unemployment figures down and get some of the scumbags unfortunate citizens off the streets and into a place where they can be more easily managed.

Meanwhile Nero is packing his bags, doing a runner and passing on his fiddle to one of the arsonists, 'here you go old boy, try to get a tune out of that - is it me or is it getting a tad warm in here? - have fun - toodles!'

Breaking News

well yes that £300,000 we were going to reinvest in the NHS was just a little insiders joke, you didn't believe us did you - really? and well, these immigrants we don't want, well we really need them to do the Poopie jobs that we can't be bothered to pay a living wage for, so whoops - err Sorry?

Yer gotta larf.