Bill McLaren's all-time XV

Back in March 2002, I think, commentator Bill McLaren revealed his all time World XV as revealed in The Times

Full back - Andy Irvine
Scotland and British Lions full back whose offensive genius marked him out from the rest. Always willing to take a risk in attacking play.

Left wing - David Campese
Enigmatic Australian wing - McLaren's favourite player of all time - who allied entertainment with match winning skills.

Right wing - Gerald Davies
Wales and British Lions speedster whose pace was only matched by a devastating side-step.

Outside centre - Danie Gerber
Strong and aggressive South African, who was at his peak when the Springboks were banned from world rugby.

Inside centre - Mike Gibson
Ireland and British Lions back who played in almost every position behind the scrum. Career spanned 16 seasons.

Fly-half - Rob Andrew
England and British Lions general remowned for his kicking game. Always calm and steady presence behind the pack.

Scrum-half - Gareth Edwards
Wales and British Lions legend who became the first Welsh player to reach 50 caps. Passed, kicked and ran impeccably.

No 8 - Mervyn Davies
Wales and British Lions stalwart known as "Merv the swerve." Influential in both lineout and scrummaging.

Openside flanker - Fergus Slattery
Ireland and British Lions maverick, who caused chaos in Springbok ranks in the 1974 Lions tour. Quick, hard and uncompromising.

Blindside flanker - Zinzan Brooke
All Black legend whose physical and tactical skills marked him out above the rest. Bagged three drop goals for the Kiwis.

No 5 - Frik Du Preez
South African lineout expert, cultured with hands, feet and tactically aware. Won his first ten internaionals.

No 4 - Colin Meads
New Zealand totem voted All Black of the century by Kiwi public in 1999. Played a record 133 times for his country.

Loose-head prop - Graham Price
Wales and British Lions anchor from the Pontypool school of front-rowing. A quiet achiever who let his playing do the talking.

Hooker - Sean Fitzpatrick
Tough New Zealander who led his country 51 times. Renowned for his throwing, mobility, and advice to referees.

Tight-head prop - Fran Cotton
England and British Lions bulwark who was solid in the scrummage, quick to breakdowns and a strong leader.

ONLY of players that the great man could not at that point (2002) have seen in their pomp (ie you can't replace Irvine with Blanco as Bill would have seen them both play at their peak), how would you change his list, if at all?

Don't really think I can comment much as I haven't seen most of the list. The only player I can genuinely say is better is Dan Carter ahead of Rob Andrew. The chasm between the two is massive.

Hmmm, Dan Carter for Rob Andrew stands out like a beacon. Ditto McCaw for Slattery since I can't say Michael Jones.

Edit, Munsty beat me to the DC one

I still miss Billl Mclaren. I wonder what he'd have made of the game as it is now. on topic i probably wouldn't change anything other than Carter as above...

I was surprised that there wasn't a single French player on BM's list - is that a fair reflection?

Very surprised Michael Jones isn't his first choice 7.

Which French players would you have gone for As?

Published in early 2009, a competitor list to the Great One's from a contributor on the Roar:

15 – Fullback: Serge Blanco – France 93 caps
Serge was the greatest attacking fullback of all time, and a gentleman on the field. He scored 38 tries, most of them from deep. Not as defensively brilliant as some 15s, he made the game look effortless.
RUNNER UP: Gavin Hastings – Scotland

14 – Wing: David Campese – Australia 101 caps
With a goose step and desire to attack at all costs, causing him to be a average defender and mistake maker. But when it worked, did it work! He dazzled his way to a world record 64 test tries.
RUNNER UP: John Kirwan – New Zealand

13 – Centre: Philippe Sella – France 111 caps
An attacker so stunning that few realised his defensive strength. A weaving magician who had the “strength of a bull and the touch of a piano player.” A Five Nations superman with 50 appearences.
RUNNER UP: Tana Umaga – New Zealand

12 – Centre: Tim Horan - Australia 80 caps
With two World Cups – and 1999’s player of the tournament – and the lightest feet even seen. A great defender, brilliant pace, runner of the cleanest attack, and a great decision maker.
RUNNER UP: Will Carling – England

11 – Wing: Jonah Lomu – New Zealand 63 caps
Youngest man to wear the black jersey and the most unstoppable force ever seen in rugby. Became the first global rugby sensation – and singlehandedly ran through entire teams. Terrifying.
RUNNER UP: Gerald Davies – Wales

9 – Scrum Half: Gareth Edwards – Wales 53 caps
Edwards was regarded by many as the greatest player of all time, and the catalyst for the Welsh golden age. Won ten caps for the Lions with series victories over both the All Blacks and Springboks.
RUNNER UP: Joost van der Westhuizen – South Africa

10 – Flyhalf FOUR WAY TIE: Barry John – Wales, Hugo Porta – Argentina, Mark Ella – Australia, Jonny Wilkinson – England

8 – Number Eight: Mervyn Davies – Wales 38 caps
Played all of his matches consecutively and was the figure head of the Welsh pack of the 1970’s. Played in two victorious Lions tours, won two Grand slams and three triple crowns.
RUNNER UP: Brian Lochore – New Zealand

7 – Flanker: Michael Jones – New Zealand 55 caps
The Iceman revolutionised this position, following the ball religiously – while his faith famously prevented him playing Sundays. Regarded by purists as the finest flanker in the game’s history.
RUNNER UP: Wavell Wakefield – England

6 – Flanker: Francois Pienaar – South Africa 29 caps
Francois captained Transvaal to be Super 10 and Currie Cup champions in 1993 before marking the world by winning the 1995 World Cup. A man far beyond a rugby player with his global impact.
RUNNER UP: Graham Mourie – New Zealand

5 – Lock: Colin Meads – New Zealand 55 caps
Pinetree was the most devastating forward of his era, and visions of him with ball in one hand still would haunt many ex-players. A monster who could not be stopped, he is the iconic All Black
RUNNER UP: Willie-John Mcbride – Ireland

4 – Lock: John Eales – Australia 86 caps
The most successful Wallaby captain – and the highest points scoring forward in history. The iconic Queensland lock was the linchpin of the Australian golden age from 1999 into the new millennium.
RUNNER UP: Martin Johnson – England

3 – Prop: Jason Leonard – England 114 caps
The most durable prop of all time with three series appearances with the Lions, and responsible for anchoring what became the world’s strongest scrum leading up to a World Cup win in 2003.
RUNNER UP: David Sole – Scotland

2 – Hooker: Sean Fitzpatrick – New Zealand 92 caps
The most capped captain of New Zealand – 51 times. Sean is alongside Meads as the most influential All Black ever. Key for Auckland’s and New Zealand’s complete supremacy in the late 1990’s.
RUNNER UP: Keith Wood – Ireland

1 – Prop: Wilson Whineray – New Zealand 32 caps
One of the All Blacks’ most enduring captains, with 25 wins as leader – and probably the first rugby prop that could run with the pill, and play both sides of the scrum. An Enduring Kiwi icon.
RUNNER UP: Os du Randt – South Africa

Agreed on McCaw and Carter.

Maybe a debate for Smit ahead of Fitzpatrick....I'd probably go with SF, but you can argue that one both ways.

Obviously I'm a massive fan of Bill McLaren, but Rob Andrew? Seriously!

Munsty, I suppose that Sella and Blanco are the two that come to mind, altho the Great One would have seen both in action many times, and he was perhaps the most impartial commentator ever

No one is going to agree on every player, but to put Andrew ahead of Phil Bennett is insane. I guess their his favorites for different reasons though.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Munsty, I suppose that Sella and Blanco are the two that come to mind, altho the Great One would have seen both in action many times, and he was perhaps the most impartial commentator ever

The selection of Andrew is clearly McLaren demonstrating his impartiality as a Scotsman!

Rob Andrew !!!

Plenty of others that Bill would've have seen should have replaced Mr Andrew. However, sticking to the GUIDELINES as stated by ASBO -

Myler, Farrel, Hodgson, Flood
Hook, Preistland. Matthew Morgan, Steven Shingler, Lewis Robling Biggar (yes even him)
Jackson
Sexton
Skrela, Trinh-Duc, Beaxis
Cooper, Barnes
Carter, Donald, Evans
Jantes, Lambie, Steyn

You forgot Dan Parks!

He'd have seen Parks, but I did miss out our Chris Parks (Cardiff Saracens & Welsh Districts cap)

funnyExiledScot wrote:You forgot Dan Parks!

PenfroPete wrote:He'd have seen Parks, but I did miss our Chris Parks (Cardiff Saracens &n Welsh Districts cap)

PenfroPete wrote:Rob Andrew !!!

Plenty of others that Bill would've have seen should have replaced Mr Andrew. However, sticking to the GUIDELINES as stated by ASBO -

Myler, Farrel, Hodgson, Flood
Hook, Preistland. Matthew Morgan, Steven Shingler, Lewis Robling Biggar (yes even him)
Jackson
Sexton
Skrela, Trinh-Duc, Beaxis
Cooper, Barnes
Carter, Donald, Evans
Jantes, Lambie, Steyn

And where's ROG?

He'd have seen ROG. However, I did think of our Roger Evans (Cardiff Saracens) but he normally plays 2nd Row so maybe Andrew just shades him as an outside half ? 50/50 call I guess

PenfroPete wrote:He'd have seen ROG. However, I did think of our Roger Evans (Cardiff Saracens) but he normally plays 2nd Row so maybe Andrew just shades him as an outside half ? 50/50 call I guess

That is one mean team AsLongasBut100ofUS. Only one South African though and not sure Francois Pienaar would be the one player. I´d go for Richard Hill.

Like how Serge Blanco and Gavin Hastings made fullback. They were two of my favourite non AB players when I was growing up. But that´s the problem with lists like this. How do you not have Christian Cullen in the mix at fullback. How can you compare Brian Lochore with Zinzan Brooke for example? But good for having a few beers and debating with your mates.

One thing is for sure, if you put forward Rob Andrew´s name in a bar, a fight would start out. Grant Fox was better than Rob Andrew and I sure wouldn´t have him in my all-time list! Personally, I thought Rob Andrew made a better administrator. I have no idea how he lasted so long doing so little. I still don´t know what exactly he did except undermine the various English managers and to be honest I think he´s still giggling as to how he got away with it for so long.

funnyExiledScot wrote:You forgot Dan Parks!

I thought Parks was the reason Mclaren retired from commentating!

Just starting to read Bobby Windsors book and I must agree with Fran Cotton who wrote the forward the Duke would be in at No2.

FUll back I would have had JPR Blanco or Cullen over Irvine though did like watching him play.

Anyone over Rob Andrew

Never sore Gerber or DU Preez play so would swap Sella and Jonno Willie John for them.

But having been lucky enough to meet Bill in the lmid 90s I won't disagree with the man.

True Gent and Real Legend

MBTGOG wrote:Don't really think I can comment much as I haven't seen most of the list. The only player I can genuinely say is better is Dan Carter ahead of Rob Andrew. The chasm between the two is massive.

Bill must have been good mates with Andrew because he was commentating in the days of some of the real greats of flyhalf play that even make Carter humble, great player that he is.

But anyhow, even for Rob Andrews era, he was not as good as Jonathan Davies, Grant Fox, Micheal Lynear, Mark Ella, Naas Botha, Andrew Merhtens etc etc etc

but it is a personal choice...

I would probably have suggested Carlos Spencer as he was the most entertaining... Personal choice obviously, just like BMs

maestegmafia wrote:I would probably have suggested Carlos Spencer as he was the most entertaining... Personal choice obviously, just like BMs

You forgot about Phil Bennett didn't you?

Or Barry John?

For me 15 is Blanco v Cullen.
And i dont think young England winger Hislop would think that Blanco is a gentleman on the field.

And not Rob Andrew

didnt want to make it sound like my beloved Wales produced all the best Flyhalves.

add cliff morgan to that list though

Dan Carter for Rob Andrew and no objections there, because carter is a truly great player, out in a league of his own, but Mccaw, well if he actually did play a game within the rules and wasn't permanently camped in an offside position i'd be able to give a true opinion of the skills that he possesses.

However, his undoubted skill is, for me rather tarnished by his, Hmm, what shall i call it 'Gamesmanship' and thats being charitable. But Carter is the best despite his lack of World cup success! but who knows, he and the AB's will probably remedy that this year. Refs willing!!

english warrior wrote:Dan Carter for Rob Andrew and no objections there, because carter is a truly great player, out in a league of his own, but Mccaw, well if he actually did play a game within the rules and wasn't permanently camped in an offside position i'd be able to give a true opinion of the skills that he possesses.

However, his undoubted skill is, for me rather tarnished by his, Hmm, what shall i call it 'Gamesmanship' and thats being charitable. But Carter is the best despite his lack of World cup success! but who knows, he and the AB's will probably remedy that this year. Refs willing!!

I think one point would have been that this team was probably written when Bill retired in 2002. Therefor Carter hadnt been capped by NZ

Warrior get over it already. He's not offside if he gets to the tackle first as it's not a ruck yet. He can come in from wherever he wants. Pretty much every 7 has been accused of this. McCaw is the best of the modern era so of course he cops it, mostly from people who want to see refs penalise him for the sake of it. But he knows the laws better than the referees.

EW
No english player has ever been prone to stretching the off side laws, most especially not Dean Richards or Neil Back.

In Deano's case, I can think of two explanations:
1 - The IRB issued a special directive excempting him from the off side laws
2 - The refs were scared that he'd deck them if they gave a penalty against him.

While I don't agree with Bill Mac's choice of Andrew at 10, I can understand to some extent why he picked him. He was the fulcrum of an England team at the time that managed to put them in the right areas of the field to play to the strengths of their pack. 'Up the jumper' rugby as it was called by many who had no answer to it .

Having been brought up with Borders rugby, often played in foul conditions, I am hazarding a guess that it was a skill McLaren admired.

During his time he probably also felt that Barry John retired without really fulfilling his potential, given the gifts he had.

Well 9 out of 15 from the NH says it all.

Slattery over many including Jones?
Rob Andrew? Whaaaaat?
Davies over Lomu...
Again the context thing is kicking in- what Davies did to the top SH3 compared to what Lomu did to England does even compare. He was good in his own back yard, ok in 71 but thats it....context.

I think poor old Bill must have been senile when he made the list and when I think back he didnt see a lot of SH rugby played down here so horses for courses.

Forwards are ok other than Slattery for Jones- no comparison.

It really reflects the impression these players had on hime at the peak of his commentating years which is understandable. I know he was an Irvine fan during the 70's as I was too and I could tell that from his commentary- same with Mervyn Davies.

I used to be of the Anti-Andrews camp, moaning if cod-face had been picked.

But......

Not so long ago I bought a few English DVD's, the older stuff. In some of these games he's outstanding. And these are not just the bog standard 5 nations opposition, these are against the Ozzies and Boks. This might sound absolutely barking mad, but I'd rate him over Wilko. He didn't use it much, but when Andrews had to, or could see it was on, he did have a running game, not nearly as good as Carter, but he had the knack of drawing the defence in and then unloading to strike runners.

I know I'm going against the tide here, but there you go.

Mind you I'd still put Carter ahead of him, but I think those that just produce a list of ANY number 10 and say that the are better than Andrews, have not really studied his game.


My opinion.

That was the thing with Andrew - on the very VERY rare occasions he did actually run with the ball he looked much better than you'd expect.

Still he had Carling and Guscott outside him a lot so must occasionally have given them the ball