New Zealanders cheat.....

by Adam D Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:56 am

Well according to former Wallabies coach Bob Dwyer they do!

As the Crusaders prepare for Saturday’s Super 15 final, former Wallabies coach Bob Dwyer has labelled some of their key players “serial infringers” of the laws of the game.

The World Cup-winning coach singled out Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Owen Franks and Hurricane Conrad Smith for special mention.

Dwyer praised the Crusaders, per se, for making it to Saturday’s Super 15 final against the Reds in Brisbane.

“Their technique is beyond reproach which is what makes them the great side they are.”

But he slammed certain players, particularly All Black captain McCaw.

“You only have to watch what Richie does in a match. He would be guilty six times of obstruction in every game. He knocks players away from the ruck so his players can get in first to the ball. They are very good at it.

“For a variety of offences, players like Kieran Read, Owen Franks, Wayne Crockett and Conrad Smith [of the Hurricanes] are all serial infringers. The amount of infringements New Zealand props get away with is incredible.”

Dwyer also took a stab at New Zealand referees.

“Believe me, playing in New Zealand with New Zealand referees is the world’s most difficult task.”

He took New Zealand international referee Bryce Lawrence to task for his handling of the Crusaders-Sharks playoff match in Nelson a fortnight ago.

“In that Crusaders v Sharks game, Brad Thorn arrived at the tackle situation with about six players already involved there. He completely by-passed that and took out a defender one and a half metres behind the tackle area. I just ask, how do New Zealanders get away with these things?

NZ REFEREES

“The answer is, they do so because all New Zealand referees are bred on a diet of mayhem at the tackle contest and they commit mayhem in numbers which confuses referees. The trouble is, none of the other countries grow up on that diet because they are not allowed to play that way.

“It’s not part of their DNA; they don’t think they can get away with it so they don’t employ those tactics. But New Zealand refs let players do that, certainly New Zealand players.

“I think we have to keep criticising the New Zealanders and making people aware of what are illegal tactics. The law book clearly states you are not allowed to do what they do constantly.”

RINGING ENDORSEMENT

Nevertheless, Dwyer offered a ringing endorsement of the rugby played and the players’ skills this season.

“The standard of the rugby across all three countries has been fantastic, the best yet,” said the Australian, now 70. “The standout is the wear and tear on the players. But the bottom team has been able to challenge the top team and although not necessarily beat them, give them a real contest.

“There has been a lot of enterprise. That by itself might not be all that fantastic; you need a few other things, like ability for one. But you also need accurate technique and we have seen that in many teams.

“Even a new team like the Melbourne Rebels, who might have been expected to struggle, have had their moments.

“Injuries have been the biggest problem for Super 15 teams. The Waratahs had 11 of their 22 squad players missing through injury for their playoff match against the Crusaders. Eight or nine of them were Wallabies and it’s hard to make up for that sort of loss.”

source - http://www.ruggaworld.com/2011/07/05/mccaw-is-a-serial-infringer/

So do you agree?

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:07 am

Cover this up we dont want Robb reading this...he doesnt need anymore encouragement
talk about whinge............

by Rob B Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:35 am

Did I tell you Bob Dwyer is actually my father in law?

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:36 am

Gee Id of thought you were closer related than that.............

by Rob B Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:41 am

Not as close as Taylorman and DC so it seems (must be his love child I guess).

by maestegmafia Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:41 am

Dwyer could say most of those points about the game as a whole. He is correct and he is right to do so.

by mckay1402 Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:48 am

He is right to a degree. New Zealand have been accused of cheating since day one with Dave Gallaher and are still accused of it now. They play the laws as close to the bone as they can and usually they are clever enough to get away with it. They have a completely ruthless edge when it comes to rugby and all the best sides are the same. South Africa aren't exactly known for their whiter than white play and the England side up to 03 was often close to the edge.
You need this in a good team and it's one thing Wales lack. The ruthless exploitation of the laws in order to get an edge on your opponent. So maybe New Zealand do cheat a bit but until they get penalised it doesn't really count

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:50 am

Funny how he is doing an interview with an English journalist.he can name 6 rugby players as "serial infringers" and guess what every one of them plays for the Canterbury Crusaders,(couldnt even think of one Australian).
then one would have thought that for a bit of jounalistic balance ,in light of the seriousness of the accusation,the English journalist might have considered giving anopportunity to reply????

by Effervescing Elephant Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:51 am

I think Wales showed a willingness to sail close to the wind with a certain try against Ireland this last six nations. Play to the whistle.

by OzT Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:57 am

(couldnt even think of one Australian)....

That's cause ALL aussie players are law abiding players... did not everyone know that???? Smile

To be fair, as already mentioned, he coudl have said that about the way th egame is played by quite a few other sides nowadays, although I think the aussies generaly play to the laws...

by mckay1402 Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:57 am

ha yes that is very true but specifically at the breakdown where games are basically won and lost these days, Wales lack any kind of ruthlessness...

by Davie Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:58 am

Good old Barbed Wire - always one for a controversial comment!

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:01 am

Who is barbed wire???

Ithought that was what they call that beer in Queensland......XXXX

by Davie Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:02 am

Bob Dwyer = Barbed Wire .. just think of it spoken in a certain accent...

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:03 am

Well fair enough Reds are going into a final with the Crusaders. Could´ve mentioned the breakdown vs the Blues but that´s not the point of the article. Of course there´s truth in what he says but it´s not the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Lovely sensationalist title. But it´s true. Never make me banker in Monopoly. I´ll rob all day long because I´m a serial cheat and I just can´t help myself.

by propdavid_london Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:10 am

Sadly, all the best teams do it!
Munster for a very long time.
Ireland over the last few years are very saavy at the breakdown
England 2000-2003
NZ just seem to get away with it more.

However, they come undone at WC's when they play their usual way and get a Ref that isnt doenst conform.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:37 am

It never fails, a big game between an NZ and an Aus team approaches, and some senior Australian figure pipes up about NZers cheating in the hope of influencing the ref Whistle

If we didn't use the same tactic on occasion I might get angry about it Wink

by TheGreyGhost Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:49 am

BOB DWYER SERIAL WHINGER

You only have to watch what ex-Wallabies do before a match. They would be guilty six times of attemping to manipulate the referees in every season. They knock the best players at the ruck so their team's players can get in first with the decisions the referee will make. They are very good at it.

For a variety of offences, ex-players like Dwyer, Campese, Farr-Jones and Fitzsimmons are all serial infringers. The amount of complaining about alleged infringements by New Zealand ex-Wallabies get away with is incredible.

The Australian understanding of the laws of the game is very simple: If someone is better than they are, they must be cheating. It's not that the Wallabies have a woeful scrum that is the laughing stock of elite professional rugby - it's that the AB props cheat. It's not that their loosies are a naive or lack physicality, it's that AB loosies cheat.

Yawn. Move along. Nothing to see here.

by TheGreyGhost Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:53 am

As for a great example of obstruction and cheating...check out the Blues v Reds game where Payne makes a break out counter-attack mid way through the second half. Ranger is tracking him and attempting to get into an inside supporting line.

Two reds players (I can't remember which - I'd have to check the video) run from two different angles, and double-tackle Ranger off the ball. It's so blatant as to be absurd. How it wasn't spotted by Kaplan or either of the AMR's I'll never know.

The TV coverage angles for the game were very tight, but I'd wager a wider view would have revealed many more instances of this tactic in a game notable for a suspicious lack of Blues supporting runners.

by caoimhincentre Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:57 am

Heaslip is getting pretty good at it too thank god. Check out leinster first two tries in the HC final.

G'wan Jamie ya good thing

by disneychilly Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:06 am

Propdavid stop talking rubbish. 07 was the only NZ WC defeat where the ref had an influence. Refs should conform by making correct calls-kind of what they're paid to do. Barnes didn't conform because he stuffed up 20 times. What are you smoking pal.

Whenever there's a big Aussie NZ game they all whinge about cheating Kiwis. Get over it. They're no angels themselves. Also thought it was bloody rich in the Saders Sharks game that a lot of Saffas went off their trolley. Short memories-it was no coincidence that after apartheid and the introduction of neutral refs SA's record vs NZ went downhill. Anyone remember Gert Bezuidenhout?

Kearns is ridiculous. Probably the worst of the lot interms of bleating.

by **Biltong** Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:11 am

disneychilly wrote: Short memories-it was no coincidence that after apartheid and the introduction of neutral refs SA's record vs NZ went downhill. Anyone remember Gert Bezuidenhout?

Disney, SA rugby didn't go downhill because of neutral referees mate.

by G2 Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:21 am

For budding journalists, here’s how to write the aforementioned article

Prior to a rugby final or important international match

[Insert name of ex player / coach] slams cheating [insert team name & or players(s)]

[Insert name of opposing team] always infringe at the [insert game area in question e.g. scrum, breakdown] in particular [insert name of key opposition player] is the worst offender he always [insert name of offense] and always seems to get away with it, the referees from [insert country name or hemisphere] would never allow that serial offending to happen on such a regular basis, if the game were played in [insert country name or hemisphere] he would be penalised and possible in the sin bin.

The article may be further enhanced by:-

Naming referees especially if the will be the one refereeing the match in question

Citing particular examples where said player committed an offense that led to points being scored or denied

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:27 am

G2
Peter Bils has got a pad of those forms.......

by disneychilly Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:32 am

Biltong mate may have been venting a bit. Think it comes from being a lone Kiwi at the Woolshed in Dublin on Saturday listening to blokes not quite as impartial as yourself. Apologies.

by **Biltong** Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:39 am

disneychilly wrote:Biltong mate may have been venting a bit. Think it comes from being a lone Kiwi at the Woolshed in Dublin on Saturday listening to blokes not quite as impartial as yourself. Apologies.

No worries mate. thumbsup

by propdavid_london Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:48 am

disneychilly wrote:Propdavid stop talking rubbish. 07 was the only NZ WC defeat where the ref had an influence. Refs should conform by making correct calls-kind of what they're paid to do. Barnes didn't conform because he stuffed up 20 times. What are you smoking pal.

Whenever there's a big Aussie NZ game they all whinge about cheating Kiwis. Get over it. They're no angels themselves. Also thought it was bloody rich in the Saders Sharks game that a lot of Saffas went off their trolley. Short memories-it was no coincidence that after apartheid and the introduction of neutral refs SA's record vs NZ went downhill. Anyone remember Gert Bezuidenhout?

Kearns is ridiculous. Probably the worst of the lot interms of bleating.

I'm just suggesting that there is a difference in the law interpretations between refs from different regions (nationality) - as the article stated. I, personally would rather a Northern Hemisphere ref over a Southern Hemisphere ref when watching an England game.

by disneychilly Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:57 am

What I'd like to see is the refs swap hemispheres. If SH refs do a NH season and vice versa they might gain more of a sense of empathy with how players from the other hemisphere play the game and then move closer to universal consistency with interpretations.

by TheGreyGhost Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:02 am

I understand your frustration disney...The worst thing about this kind of so-called journalism is that your average fair weather fans tend to either read it, or have it sent to them and believe it wholesale because they don't understand the game well enough to form an objective opinion of their own

I spent 2 years with an infuriating boss who liked to have a conversation twice a day about how much he enjoyed watched New Zealand being refereed "properly" by Wayne Barnes and pointing out just how average New Zealand looked when refereed "properly", the problem according to him was that the team was full of poached south sea islanders who typically lack discipline. To a chorus of agreement from his many underlings.

The Aussies are typically masters of the wind-up. Luckily they haven't paid the same attention to the set piece.

by Guest Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:07 am

TheGreyGhost wrote:I spent 2 years with an infuriating boss who liked to have a conversation twice a day about how much he enjoyed watched New Zealand being refereed "properly" by Wayne Barnes and pointing out just how average New Zealand looked when refereed "properly", the problem according to him was that the team was full of poached south sea islanders who typically lack discipline. To a chorus of agreement from his many underlings.

Finally! It's all becoming clear now. We now know the story of greyghost's past and why you post like you do Very Happy

It's taken a while, but thanks for clearing it up.

by munkian Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:15 am

McCaw does seem to lie completely in the way a lot whilst waving his hands wearing a sh*t eating grin

by disneychilly Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:31 am

So did/do Neil Back, George Smith, Olivier Magne, David Pocock, Martyn Williams...what's your point?

I've been in GG's position too where a lot of people will just gob off about the same things-they're completely wrong and won't even enter into serious debate. If you like me treat the people the way you want to be treated as GG's boss I'd expect to get both barrels! Problem is you can't tell your boss to jog on in a lot of those cases. Sucks even worse when there are other sheep around the place just copying one pillock.

by welshy824 Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:38 am

to be honest, can anyone here who does or has played rugby say they have never cheated? i am sorry if a player gets a chance to put hands in the ruck and get the ball for his team they will try and do it. late tackles, offside at the ruck etc every player does it and you push the rules to as far as they can and sometimes if you play cleverly step over that line and "cheat" and if the ref doesnt pick you up then you carry on.

it is often what makes a good flanker. i mean at scrums i hold on the opposite flanker to stop him getting away early, put my foot out so scrum half cant get round and sometimes "happens" to trip over my foot.

its not always fair play but its intelligent play.

by snoopster Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:49 am

munkian wrote:McCaw does seem to lie completely in the way a lot whilst waving his hands wearing a sh*t eating grin

Yes he does.

I wish he was English....

by TheGreyGhost Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:16 pm

Thing I don't really get is that his article is actually the kind of racist slander that would have been moderated from say, 606, were it published by your average punter. It'd be worth a stab by the NZRFU to sue the publishing media outlet, if for no other purpose to hopefully stem the tide of this rampant (and unfortunately increasingly frequent) vauge, largely unsubstantiated and motivationally transparent assault by former Wallabies.

"We have to keep criticising New Zealander's and make people aware that what they do is illegal" for example is particularly questionable.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:22 pm

Bob Dwyer's mistake was not to state that New Zealanders cheat - they do - but to imply that only New Zealanders cheat.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:42 pm

Bob Dwyer´s mistake was that moustache. He might have got away with it in the 60s, possibly the 70s and maybe in the Magnum PI 80s but it ain´t Movember Bob ol´son, you are allowed to smile once and a while. A twist of lemon in an a**ehole is how I´d describe his face. And people think Graham Henry is grumpy!

by munkian Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:43 pm

snoopster wrote:
munkian wrote:McCaw does seem to lie completely in the way a lot whilst waving his hands wearing a sh*t eating grin

Yes he does.

I wish he was English....

I'll happily admit I wish he was Welsh Very Happy

by yappysnap Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:46 pm

disneychilly wrote:So did/do Neil Back, George Smith, Olivier Magne, David Pocock, Martyn Williams...what's your point?

I've been in GG's position too where a lot of people will just gob off about the same things-they're completely wrong and won't even enter into serious debate. If you like me treat the people the way you want to be treated as GG's boss I'd expect to get both barrels! Problem is you can't tell your boss to jog on in a lot of those cases. Sucks even worse when there are other sheep around the place just copying one pillock.

You're all in the wrong jobs. No one at my office knows a thing about rugby, infact the only person they could probably name would be Johnny Wilkinson and even then it's only in conjunction with a certain kick. I would love to work with people i could actually have conversations with.

Frankly your lucky to work with people with similar hobbies!!

by TheGreyGhost Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:48 pm

I also get the feeling he's stockpiling ammunition for the event of a Crusaders victory. Roll on the inevitable articles about how the Reds were robbed by canny New Zealander's who resorted to cheating to break the otherwise invincible Reds...all sanctioned under the watchful monocle of NZs partizan referee.

Interesting that he didn't mention the Reds are probably only in the final in the first place because of their far easier path to the final due to the grossly lop sided structure of the competition. They'll also be less fatigued, have fewer injuries and have home advantage. If they can't win this one, I doubt very much the refereeing will have anything to do with it. There's a reason this is the first time in donkey's years we have Ockers in the final, and it 'aint because they're unearthed a crop of new talent.

by damngoodOvalball Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:53 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Thing I don't really get is that his article is actually the kind of racist slander

pot - kettle - black

by disneychilly Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:33 pm

Yeah I have reservations about the conferences too. Not having to play the Lions and Rebels-I mean those are almost 5 point byes for the better teams. Brumbies have been awful as have the Force on occasion, plus they missed out on whipping my useless Hurricanes due to the quake too. Face it if the Saders were in the Aussie conference they may have only dropped one or two of the derbies.

Not looking for excuses though. They've shown that they're so good that despite all that's happened they want to be judged solely on results. Can't get much better than winning the thing which I hope they do.

by TheGreyGhost Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:37 pm

Yep - agree on the no excuse making, merely raising the point that it's interesting that the Aussies have started whinging before the game is played now, rather than after despite having the deck stacked in their favour.

But I suppose winning graciously is not something you expect to find in the Australian book of sportsmanship anyway.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:39 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Yep - agree on the no excuse making, merely raising the point that it's interesting that the Aussies have started whinging before the game is played now, rather than after despite having the deck stacked in their favour.

But I suppose winning graciously is not something you expect to find in the Australian book of sportsmanship anyway.

Be nice GG. IMO the Aussies are quite good winners most of the time ...

by nottins_jones Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:43 pm

Same ol same ol Laugh

by **Pal Joey** Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:55 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Yep - agree on the no excuse making, merely raising the point that it's interesting that the Aussies have started whinging before the game is played now, rather than after despite having the deck stacked in their favour.

But I suppose winning graciously is not something you expect to find in the Australian book of sportsmanship anyway.

No wonder I couldn't find that book in the library this afternoon...let me guess, is the author G.S. Chappell?

Then again, I was in the Sporting section - not the Psychology/How to Wind Up With Success sub-section. laughing

Take it easy GG - You guys are damn good at both too, don't forget.

by boomeranga Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:00 pm

Great thread

by **Pal Joey** Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:02 pm

Until 'we' ruined it, boomer...

It didn't work tonight, did it?

by **Biltong** Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:55 pm

boomeranga wrote: Great thread

Now why are you enjoying this so much? boxing

by Guest Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:10 pm

I've been a Wales supporter for over 50 years and find Bob Dwyer's comments predictable. He's an Australian, he personally has a reputation for complaining, and it's not long to the RWC in New Zealand!

The question other teams must solve is how to beat New Zealand in open play, not how to influence referees against them before the RWC starts - which won't work anyway, because refs know full well already that every team will cheat in the RWC if it can get away with it.

As for the forms of cheating Dwyer cites, there are many other ways to cheat - feigning injury to get your side a breather, for instance - as he must know, being an experienced top coach.

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