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6N Team of the Tournament

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Post by George Carlin Mon 20 Mar 2023, 12:12 pm

I haven't started a fight in ages, so here goes.

In my defence, all I'm doing is relaying two ToTs which have already been chosen - the first by the PA News Agency and the second by PlanetRugby.com (therefore with a quite a diverse range of influences).

PA NEWS AGENCY

15. Hugo Keenan (Ireland)
14. Damian Penaud (France)
13. Huw Jones (Scotland)
12. Gael Fickou (France)
11. Mack Hansen (Ireland)
10. Finn Russell (Scotland)
09. Antoine Dupont (France)

08. Caelan Doris (Ireland)
07. Josh Van der Flier (Ireland)
06. Sebastian Negri (Italy)
05. James Ryan (Ireland)
04. Thibaud Flament (France)
03. Finlay Bealham (Ireland)
02. Dan Sheehan (Ireland)
01. Pierre Schoeman (Scotland)

PLANETRUGBY.COM

15. Thomas Ramos (France)
14. Damian Penaud (France)
13. Huw Jones (Scotland)
12. Sione Tuipulotu (Scotland)
11. James Lowe (Ireland)
10. Johnny Sexton (Ireland)
09. Antoine Dupont (France)

08. Caelan Doris (Ireland)
07. Francois Cros (France)
06. Charles Ollivon (France)
05. James Ryan (Ireland)
04. Thibaud Flament (France)
03. Finlay Bealham (Ireland)
02. Dan Sheehan (Ireland)
01. Andrew Porter (Ireland)

Have at it. picard
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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 20 Mar 2023, 12:22 pm

George Carlin wrote:I haven't started a fight in ages, so here goes.

In my defence, all I'm doing is relaying two ToTs which have already been chosen - the first by the PA News Agency and the second by PlanetRugby.com (therefore with a quite a diverse range of influences).

PA NEWS AGENCY

15. Hugo Keenan (Ireland)
14. Damian Penaud (France)
13. Huw Jones (Scotland)
12. Gael Fickou (France)
11. Mack Hansen (Ireland)
10. Finn Russell (Scotland)
09. Antoine Dupont (France)

08. Caelan Doris (Ireland)
07. Josh Van der Flier (Ireland)
06. Sebastian Negri (Italy)
05. James Ryan (Ireland)
04. Thibaud Flament (France)
03. Finlay Bealham (Ireland)
02. Dan Sheehan (Ireland)
01. Pierre Schoeman (Scotland)

PLANETRUGBY.COM

15. Thomas Ramos (France)
14. Damian Penaud (France)
13. Huw Jones (Scotland)
12. Sione Tuipulotu (Scotland)
11. James Lowe (Ireland)
10. Johnny Sexton (Ireland)
09. Antoine Dupont (France)

08. Caelan Doris (Ireland)
07. Francois Cros (France)
06. Charles Ollivon (France)
05. James Ryan (Ireland)
04. Thibaud Flament (France)
03. Finlay Bealham (Ireland)
02. Dan Sheehan (Ireland)
01. Andrew Porter (Ireland)

Have at it. picard

Can I put in a complaint because it doesn't inlcude my desired players? That seems to be the protocol on 606V2 this morning. Who's getting banned for posting this?

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 20 Mar 2023, 12:24 pm

I think most would be in agreement on selecting Doris, and Sheehan was probably the standout at hooker. Bealham missed almost half the tournament, he's up there, not sure I can think of anyone else though. Flament is an excellent choice.

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Post by TJ Mon 20 Mar 2023, 12:49 pm

Nice to see Jones get it both teams and Finn get a mention but if I were choosing the ToT it would only be Irish and French players
Looks to me like both have worked hard to put players from other teams in

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Post by Collapse2005 Mon 20 Mar 2023, 7:40 pm

Was surprised Flament wasnt named in the shortlist for player of the tournament. Nominees are Henson, Dupont, Ramos, Keenan, Doris and Penaud. All fair enough, Doris or Penaud for me.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 21 Mar 2023, 4:25 am

Not that much in some calls.....you're either Irish, French or SA (Sorry Scotland fans...just messing) to get in the side.

I'm punting for:

15. Hugo Keenan (Ireland)
14. Damian Penaud (France)
13. Gael Fickou (France)
12. Sione Tuipulotu (Scotland)
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Scotland)
10. Finn Russell (Scotland)
09. Antoine Dupont (France)

08. Caelan Doris (Ireland)
07. Josh Van der Flier (Ireland)
06. Charles Ollivon (France)
05. James Ryan (Ireland)
04. Thibaud Flament (France)
03. Zander Fagerson (Scotland)
02. Dan Sheehan (Ireland)
01. Cyril Baille (France)

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Post by king_carlos Tue 21 Mar 2023, 2:28 pm

1.Schoeman
2.Sheehan
3.Fagerson
4.Flament
5.Ryan
6.Ollivon
7.van der Flier
8.Doris

9.Dupont
10.Sexton

11.Hansen
12.Fickou
13.Jones
14.Penaud
15.Keenan

Back row probably the hardest area. Aldritt started slowly but ended brilliantly. The entire Italy back row of Lamaro, Negri and Cannone I thought were really good too. Whilst Cros and POM had strong tournaments.

The centres for me were Fickou plus one. I went with Shug but could just as easily have been Tuipulotu. Ringrose was excellent as usual but missed a couple of games sadly.

It's a shame Capuozzo got injured as he'd have had a very good shot at the 15 jersey if not. Fullback was a strength across the tournament though. Ramos and Steward having good showings as well.

Lowe and Duhan the more obvious hon mentions for the wingers. Bruno as well from Italy for me, I thought he had an excellent tournament.

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Post by George Carlin Tue 21 Mar 2023, 3:05 pm

The BBC stats summary was very interesting:
Six Nations 2023: What were teams good at and what are their World Cup chances?

With the 2023 Six Nations done and dusted, Opta's Nick Bentley takes a look at the numbers to see how the teams performed and how they are shaping up for this autumn's Rugby World Cup in France.

Ireland

The 2023 Six Nations was pitched as a battle between the top two ranked teams in the world, Ireland v France, and that's how it played out. Ultimately Ireland had too much for all their opponents and won a third Six Nations Grand Slam and fifth Championship overall.

In trademark Andy Farrell style, Ireland kept a firm grip on their matches by playing tight. In fact a competition high 55% of their play remained within 10 metres of the previous breakdown. That said they also had arguably the most potent back-three in the Championship, meaning when they did move the ball to those extremities, more often than not they scored.

Hugo Keenan and James Lowe topped the metres gained rankings while Lowe also contributed 10 line breaks, the most of any player. In fact, as a unit, Ireland's tally of 39 breaks was the most of any team.

Ireland were also extremely disciplined, conceding a competition low 44 penalties and finishing the Championship as the only side not to receive a card. A miserly defence in the red zone was also crucial, conceding just 1.2 points per entry to the 22, the best rate of any side.

Can anyone beat Ireland? They've lost just two of their past 24 matches (v France and New Zealand) and are on a 10-game winning streak, including a pair of wins over the All Blacks, victories over South Africa and Australia and a Grand Slam.

Their World Cup history is probably the most disappointing of any leading rugby nation, having never progressed past the quarter-finals. But this Ireland side fears no-one and has the talent, leadership and strategy to go all the way.

France
Les Bleus headed into this Six Nations on a record 13-game unbeaten run, however they could only extend that to 14 games before they were undone by a brilliant Ireland side. They bounced back with flamboyant wins against Scotland, England and Wales.

As a team they avoided nearly a third (29%) of the tackles they faced, with Damian Penaud, Antoine Dupont and Ethan Dumortier all in the top five of this category individually. Penaud had a remarkable tackle evasion rate of 81%, dodging 25 would-be defenders and only being tackled six times.

Best tackle evasion (20+ tackles faced)
Player Country Tackle evasion

Damian Penaud France 81%
Blair Kinghorn Scotland 60%
Antoine Dupont France 55%
Ange Capuozzo Italy 53%
Ethan Dumortier France 53%

Fabien Galthie's men were also clinical when they made a break, converting 50% (17/34) of their line breaks into tries, the best rate of any side. This attacking efficiency is mirrored in the fact they averaged three points per opposition 22 entry, again the best rate of any team. A competition high gainline success rate of 55% rounds off the CV, so despite having the least possession (45%), they definitely took the prize for best attack.

As World Cup hosts, the pressure will be firmly on France come September, especially as they kick the tournament off against three-time champions New Zealand. But this side are phenomenally talented and have the cohesion to go deep. If they do lose that opener, they could face a nervy final pool game against Italy to decide who progresses to the knockout stages.

Scotland
A solid defence is a vital foundation for any side and Scotland's tackle success rate of 92% was the best of any team; Jack Dempsey (55/55) and Jonny Gray (51/51) made more tackles than anyone else in the tournament not to miss a single hit.

On the flip side, Scotland chose to play with width in attack, going wide more often (14%) than any other side. This bravery was rewarded with the second-best red zone conversion rate in the tournament, averaging 2.8 points per opposition 22 entry.

Individually, Finn Russell is their star. However, his game is high risk, high reward. High for missed tackles (12) and turnovers conceded (12) but also sitting joint top for try assists (4), and top among fly-halves for metres gained (218) and defenders beaten (11).

Duhan van der Merwe is slightly more consistent in his threat. In this Six Nations he was one of two Scotland players to play every minute (also Jamie Ritchie), beating 35 defenders along the way, surpassing his own record from 2021 (31).

Most defenders beaten in a single Six Nations campaign
Player Country Defenders beaten Year

Duhan van der Merwe Scotland 35 2023
Duhan van der Merwe Scotland 31 2021
Brian O'Driscoll Ireland 30 2000
Emile N'tamack France 26 2000
George North Wales 26 2016

Scotland head into the World Cup with big ambitions, however a tough pool awaits. Defending champions South Africa are first up before a huge match against Ireland. They'll be underdogs to escape the pool but both the Springboks and Ireland will be nervous about playing a rejuvenated Scotland. As with everything Russell is involved in, expect the unexpected.

England

Steve Borthwick endured a challenging first Six Nations as head coach. His side broke the defensive line the least often of any outfit (16 times), and combined with the lowest tackle success rate (83%) and worst goal-kicking (62%) you can understand how they failed to pick up more than a couple of wins.

Having the slowest average ruck speed (3.8 seconds) of any team didn't help their attack find the gaps, nor did the four unique midfield combinations (10-12-13) they had through the campaign.

One area of success they did have was in the set-piece and maul. England managed the best line-out success rate (92%) of any team, made the most maul metres of any side and scored as many tries from mauls (3) as the other nations combined. They completed the set-piece strength by managing the best scrum success rate in the Championship (96%).

Country Scrums won

England 96.3%
Ireland 91.3%
France 90%
Scotland 89.3%
Italy 85.7%
Wales 80.8%
Country Line-outs won
England 92.4%
Italy 88.8%
France 87.5%
Ireland 85.7%
Scotland 85.3%
Wales 85.1%

England start their World Cup with tough games against Argentina and Japan, both of whom are familiar with picking up big scalps in the tournament. Can Borthwick build cohesion and confidence in the short time before that opening game?

There will be no freebies to build into the tournament and their hopes could be all over before they play Chile and Samoa if they don't hit the ground running.

Wales
Warren Gatland's return provided some pre-tournament buzz but in the end a somewhat fortuitous victory against a wasteful Italy spared them the Wooden Spoon. Their lack of attacking threat and leaky defence are big worries.

Their tally of 147 points conceded was their highest since 2002 (188) while they also had the lowest success rates at the line-out (85%), scrum (81%) and breakdown (95%). They were also the only team not to score a try from a counter-attack and they sat bottom of the charts for defenders beaten (79) and metres gained (1,807).

One positive to draw upon is that they were getting in the positions to score points, behind only Ireland (10.6) and France (10.2) for opposition 22 entries per game (10). The worry is they only registered 1.6 points per entry, the poorest return for any side.

Wales have a lot of work to do if they want to go deep at the World Cup. A relatively sympathetic pool - thanks in large part to Wales' ranking back when the draw was made - means they'll be confident of escaping to the knockout stages. There are serious banana skins against Georgia (who beat them last November) and Fiji (who beat them in the 2007 RWC) which could derail those ambitions.

Italy
Although Italy picked up an eighth consecutive Wooden Spoon, and 18th in total, their performances were vastly improved. Their average result margin this year was -12, their best in 10 years and one big positive was their ability to hang on in the second half. In fact, the Azzurri 'won' the second half in two of their matches (v England & Wales) and drew another (v France).

Quick ruck speed was crucial to Italy's momentum in attack, their average of three seconds per ruck was the fastest of any side, and in Paolo Garbisi they have a real maestro who can marshal that advance. Despite playing just 232 minutes, only Mack Hansen (7) made more passes that led to a line-break than the Italian fly-half (6).

Player Country Minutes Break assists
Mack Hansen Ireland 400 7
Juan Ignacio Brex Italy 400 6
Paolo Garbisi Italy 232 6
Finn Russell Scotland 320 4
Owen Farrell England 354 3
Bundee Aki Ireland 268 3
Romain Ntamack France 367 3
Tommaso Allan Italy 328 3

Italy face the unenviable challenge of playing New Zealand and France at the World Cup. They've never beaten the All Blacks and have an average losing margin of 48 points from 15 matches. A narrow defeat against Les Bleus (29-24) in this Championship, however, will give them a glimmer of hope of upsetting the hosts in their final game and sneaking out of a devilish pool.
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Post by Collapse2005 Tue 21 Mar 2023, 4:12 pm

England have done a good job of getting their set piece a bit better and they have scored a lot more tries this year than last year. Still plenty of work to do in attack and defense but definite improvements in my view. England have never lost a world cup warm up game v Ireland and they have a chance to extend their world cup warm up record ton 4-0 v Ireland in August. In the six nations their record v Ireland at 10 wins -14 losses isnt as good.

Also by losing to Ireland on Saturday they also lost their mantle as the team with the most ever match wins in the six nations to Ireland albeit England obviously have more titles.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 21 Mar 2023, 6:31 pm

The set-piece was a big bright spot for England. Especially when you consider several variables. How it had slipped under Jones. The inexperience of Chessum and latterly Ribbans in second row. The likely return of Cowan-Dickie, Stuart and Lawes. I'm also hopeful that Marler will be involved for the RWC as well.

The tackle completion is abysmal considering that for the first 4 rounds they actually employed a fairly soft line speed, competed few rucks and prioritised numbers in the line. This should lend itself to high tackle completion and good defensive alignment. The first of which was pretty dire and the second very inconsistent. That's certainly a concern but also indicative of what the defence loses with Lawes and Tom Curry absent from the back row. Both are excellent in the tackle, line speed and work rate. Underhill is realistically the best replacement for either defensively when he's on form too.

Whilst these teams are just some arbitrary fun the absence of any England or Wales in players in all the XVs I've seen is telling of the tournament we've just watched though.

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Post by Collapse2005 Sat 25 Mar 2023, 9:52 pm

Thought the team and player of the tournament was meant to he announced yesterday

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Mar 2023, 2:19 pm

Dupont becomes the second player to win 6Ns player of the tournament 3 times. Have to admit he wouldn't have made it to my shortlist I don't think. He was superb against England but before that I thought he was quiet.

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Post by theslosty Wed 29 Mar 2023, 2:46 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Dupont becomes the second player to win 6Ns player of the tournament 3 times. Have to admit he wouldn't have made it to my shortlist I don't think. He was superb against England but before that I thought he was quiet.
France's defeat against Ireland would have been a couple scores heavier but for his performance. Would have liked to have seen Keenan win it but think it probably is the right call, just because Dupont's brilliance is now expected shouldn't mean it isn't recognised
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 29 Mar 2023, 3:07 pm

Just thought he had a pretty slow start to the tournament. Not saying he was average for him, just average.

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Post by Collapse2005 Wed 29 Mar 2023, 3:08 pm

Ten Irish players made the team of the tournament. Dupont player of the tournment. I voted for Doris but you cant really say Dupont doesnt deserve to be player of the tournament as he is so good.

Strange that they took so long to announce it as it was meant to be announced last Friday.

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Post by George Carlin Thu 30 Mar 2023, 5:47 am

Six Nations team of the tournament: Keenan (Ire); Penaud (Fra), Jones (Sco), Tuipulotu (Sco), Lowe (Ire); Sexton (Ire), Dupont (Fra); Porter (Ire), Sheehan (Ire), Bealham (Ire), Flament (Fra), Ryan (Ire), O'Mahony (Ire), Van der Flier (Ire), Doris (Ire).

I don't agree with O'Mahony who benefits very much from the glow of the Irish Grand Slam halo, but otherwise all fair enough.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 30 Mar 2023, 5:57 am

A little OTT on the Irish selections there....they've obviously took the close decisions with the GS.

I did see one Irish poster on Twitter outraged that Hansen wasn't selected ahead of Penaud as he's "twice the player".....that made me chuckle.

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Post by Collapse2005 Thu 30 Mar 2023, 8:18 am

It was probably the most dominant grand slam of all time in the six nations, 27 points is the highest points total ever, no team has come so close to getting a try bp in every game, lowest winning margin was 11 points win. Its not that surprising there were lots of Irish players but I do agree 10 is more than I expected anyway.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 30 Mar 2023, 9:12 am

I'd certainly picked Schoeman at LH. I thought he was the clear standout there. It's a position of strength across the tournament though. Fischetti was impressive for Italy, Baille good throughout, Genge a bright spot for England, Porter and Healy both good. A position with lots of strong contenders but I thought Schoe was the fantastic.

Ollivon or Lamaro over POM too. I thought both had terrific tournaments.

Hansen I'd pick instead of Lowe rather than Penaud. I thought he was the better of the Irish wings though Lowe has developed impressively into a really rounded player. Penaud was the standout wing across the tournament for me.

Maybe Fickou over Tuipulotu as well but both were very good.

TH didn't really have any big standouts though Beelham was good. I'd probably say Fagerson was a touch better just in a worse pack. A very tight call though.

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Post by Mr Bounce Thu 30 Mar 2023, 9:59 am

I thought Danty when he returned was fantastic. I guess he didn't play enough to warrant selection. Fickou was awesome too.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 30 Mar 2023, 11:50 am

Collapse2005 wrote:It was probably the most dominant grand slam of all time in the six nations, 27 points is the highest points total ever, no team has come so close to getting a try bp in every game, lowest winning margin was 11 points win. Its not that surprising there were lots of Irish players but I do agree 10 is more than I expected anyway.

.... because when that England team dominated there were no bonus points in the 6N. Were you as dominant as them?

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Post by Collapse2005 Thu 30 Mar 2023, 1:10 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:It was probably the most dominant grand slam of all time in the six nations, 27 points is the highest points total ever, no team has come so close to getting a try bp in every game, lowest winning margin was 11 points win. Its not that surprising there were lots of Irish players but I do agree 10 is more than I expected anyway.

.... because when that England team dominated there were no bonus points in the 6N. Were you as dominant as them?

Yeah I think the England team that won a slam in 2003 were probably the only team that can compare really. They wouldn't have got 5 bonus points but only would have got four just like the Ireland side. That England team only beat their closest rivals France by 8 points at home and only scored one try in that game and less tries overall but hammered everyone else. The difference though with Ireland's slam though is the quality of competition is much much higher this time round, even Italy were a challenge for most sides.

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Post by George Carlin Thu 30 Mar 2023, 1:28 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:It was probably the most dominant grand slam of all time in the six nations, 27 points is the highest points total ever, no team has come so close to getting a try bp in every game, lowest winning margin was 11 points win. Its not that surprising there were lots of Irish players but I do agree 10 is more than I expected anyway.
I agree that it's relevant they only introduced bonus points recently.

I think a better example of dominance is to look at the points differences of the teams. Ireland on +79, France on +59, Scotland on +20. Then quite a big gap to England on -35 and Wales on -63.
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Post by Collapse2005 Thu 30 Mar 2023, 1:53 pm

George Carlin wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:It was probably the most dominant grand slam of all time in the six nations, 27 points is the highest points total ever, no team has come so close to getting a try bp in every game, lowest winning margin was 11 points win. Its not that surprising there were lots of Irish players but I do agree 10 is more than I expected anyway.
I agree that it's relevant they only introduced bonus points recently.

I think a better example of dominance is to look at the points differences of the teams. Ireland on +79, France on +59, Scotland on +20. Then quite a big gap to England on -35 and Wales on -63.

Not sure that's a very reliable indicator either really as if that was the case Ireland last year had a points difference of +105 and Frances' was +68 but most people would agree France were quite dominant. Some years there is obviously higher competition than others of course too.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 30 Mar 2023, 2:13 pm

Probably should be noted it's a vote from fans as well.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 30 Mar 2023, 4:20 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:It was probably the most dominant grand slam of all time in the six nations, 27 points is the highest points total ever, no team has come so close to getting a try bp in every game, lowest winning margin was 11 points win. Its not that surprising there were lots of Irish players but I do agree 10 is more than I expected anyway.

.... because when that England team dominated there were no bonus points in the 6N. Were you as dominant as them?

Yeah I think the England team that won a slam in 2003 were probably the only team that can compare really. They wouldn't have got 5 bonus points but only would have got four just like the Ireland side. That England team only beat their closest rivals France by 8 points at home and only scored one try in that game and less tries overall but hammered everyone else. The difference though with Ireland's slam though is the quality of competition is much much higher this time round, even Italy were a challenge for most sides.

Wouldn't disagree with any of that.

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Post by Collapse2005 Thu 30 Mar 2023, 4:27 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably should be noted it's a vote from fans as well.

Which makes it surprising to me that only Mike Brown has won the award from England.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 30 Mar 2023, 6:15 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably should be noted it's a vote from fans as well.

Which makes it surprising to me that only Mike Brown has won the award from England.
It just makes it surprising to me that Mike Brown won to be honest.  Laugh

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Post by George Carlin Thu 30 Mar 2023, 7:05 pm

Phil Vickery cruelly overlooked.
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6N Team of the Tournament  Empty Re: 6N Team of the Tournament

Post by lostinwales Thu 30 Mar 2023, 11:17 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably should be noted it's a vote from fans as well.

Which makes it surprising to me that only Mike Brown has won the award from England.
It just makes it surprising to me that Mike Brown won to be honest.  Laugh

That season he was fantastic. I don't understand why he didn't get a look in with the Lions

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