Scotland v Italy, final day of 6Ns

Scotland v Italy

BT Murrayfield

KO 1230pm

I thought I'd start this as I want to find out what changes you'd make for next week due to, 1) poor performance today, 2) injury worries to Richie Gray, Finn Russell, Stuart Hogg and Blair Kinghorn and 3) the 6 day turnaround.

This is a potential banana skin but we have enough attacking threats that SHOULD have too much for this Italy team that have just lost at home to arguably the worse team this 6N. Imho we need to win this to firstly appease the supporters are had to endure that dire 2nd half today, secondly to end the campaign on a high (likely ending 3rd) and finally to give us something to build on for the world cup warm ups and the world cup itself.

I posted in the 6Ns build up thread that I think today probably seals Gregor's fate at the end of the year so he'll be looking to win what is likely his last yN match as head coach.

I can't predict a potential 23 as the OPs of the other matchday threads have so I'll leave that to you peeps :P.

Other than forced changes due to injuries I can’t see Toonie changing anything. If everyone gets a clean bill of health then Toonie may tinker a little. If big Ritchie and dancer are injured for example then replacements will possibly be Cummings starts and skinner on the bench and maybe Healy at 10 but for continuity, no other changes will be made.

If everyone is fit then Toonie has to punt Ali price and Fraser brown out the Squad for hornito and ashman as pride and brown were utter garbage.

I can't see RG recovering from a rib injury in 6 days and Finn certainly looked like he was limping quite badly as he went off. You have got to assume that they are both very doubtful.

Hogg did not seem obviously as bad, but again you would have to say that Kinghorn looked more dangerous when he came on for him, again! Now that he has reached his 100 cap milestone which was well deserved and needed to be respected, there is good enough reason to rest him for this game, even more so if his fitness is marginal, which it may well have been for the whole championship.

Assuming injuries then, maybe a team like this:

1. Schoeman
2. Turner
3. Fagerson Z
4. Gray J
5. Cummings
6. Ritchie
7. Darge
8. Dempsey
9. White
10. Healy
11. Maitland/Steyn - am leaning towards Maitland
12. Tuipolotu
13. Jones
14. DVDM
15. Kinghorn

Subs

Nel
Ashman
Sutherland
Skinner
Fargerson M
Horne
Redpath
Steyn/Maitland

Ditto Big Gee’s team. It’s been a roller coaster few weeks after the very positive start. Sad we didn’t quite have enough to sit in contention for the final weekend or win a triple crown, but lots of positives regardless.

I know Ireland had injuries but losing R Gray was a big loss for the Scottish lineout. Had he not been off early I think we would have done a lot better at poaching ball from their line out and organising ours. He’s had a great tournament.

Wouldn't disagree too much with the team above, except that I would have Steyn to start and Ollie Smith on the bench. I think that Maitland is now a too conservative, backward-looking choice, and Smith is the future.

Agree with Demosthenes.

Would also play Sebastian. He has been in camp and has a couple of caps. Lets see what he can do rather than relying on the old man. We need three TH's and Berghan seems to have fallen back in the last couple of seasons. Whether we rotate the front rows to Sutherland - Ashman - Sebastian to start or on the bench, I don't mind

Swap M Fagerson to start over Dempsey and get rid of Redpath (been average for Bath) for either Christie, McDowall or Harris and we are there

I thought Hoggy was really quite poor yesterday, he saw a lot of ball but did very little with it and was easily covered by the Irish defence. Wondering if the occasion got to him a bit too much. Either way, I was relieved when Blarehorn came on, and would definitely give him a start v Italy regardless of whether Hoggy is fit. I do hope we see Healy involved too

This game has the potential to be interesting from a selection point of view.

Realistically we’re finishing 3rd this tournament.  I can’t see a world in which England beat Ireland, in Dublin to let them finish ahead of us, nor can I see France losing (spectacularly) in Paris to Wales, to let us sneak 2nd.

Therefore, this game is almost meaningless, which does tend to be the case quite a lot for our last game of the tournament against Italy, other than for wooden cutlery.  With that said, there is an argument that Toonie could release his inner tombola and go to town on the selection.

I’m not saying this is likely to be the squad, or if Toonie will actually stop fighting his natural inclinations to go full balls out with his selection, as he’s probably wanting to win against, a winless but improving Italian side, but if it was up to me, I’d be tempted to look at something along these lines;

1. Schoeman
2. Turner
3. Fagerson
4. Gray
5. Cummings
6. Ritchie
7. Darge (if fit, Crosbie if not)
8. M. Fagerson
9. White
10. Healy
11. DVDM
12. Tuipolotu
13. Jones
14. Steyn
15. Kinghorn

So far pretty similar to BG’s team.

16. Sebastian  - I don’t personally rate him, but I’m guessing someone at the SRU does, if he is seen as the future(ish, he’s 28 so not exactly a fresh faced youngster) then he should be involved to get him gametime at international level
17. Ashman – Obvious really
18. Sutherland – Same as Ashman
19. Henderson
20. Dempsey (I prefer Fagerson starting, not least because I’m not loving this rule change that allows Dempsey to switch nationalities, but that’s a petty thing from my side)
21. Horne or Dobie – Horne is no longer the up and coming player and whilst he has been very good for Glasgow now he’s been given a chance, an argument could be made to get Dobie a run now, so that he’s not 27/28 before he’s even really had a proper tase of international rugby.  Happy with either to be honest, just might be a good chance to get Dobie into the side
22. Redpath
23. Smith

I realise now I’ve typed that team out that it’s far less controversial than I previously advertised at the start of this post.

EWT Spoons wrote:This game has the potential to be interesting from a selection point of view.

Realistically we’re finishing 3rd this tournament.  I can’t see a world in which England beat Ireland, in Dublin to let them finish ahead of us, nor can I see France losing (spectacularly) in Paris to Wales, to let us sneak 2nd.

Therefore, this game is almost meaningless, which does tend to be the case quite a lot for our last game of the tournament against Italy, other than for wooden cutlery.  With that said, there is an argument that Toonie could release his inner tombola and go to town on the selection.

I’m not saying this is likely to be the squad, or if Toonie will actually stop fighting his natural inclinations to go full balls out with his selection, as he’s probably wanting to win against, a winless but improving Italian side, but if it was up to me, I’d be tempted to look at something along these lines;

1. Schoeman
2. Turner
3. Fagerson
4. Gray
5. Cummings
6. Ritchie
7. Darge (if fit, Crosbie if not)
8. M. Fagerson
9. White
10. Healy
11. Duhan
12. Tuipolotu
13. Jones
14. DVDM
15. Kinghorn

So far pretty similar to BG’s team.

16. Sebastian  - I don’t personally rate him, but I’m guessing someone at the SRU does, if he is seen as the future(ish, he’s 28 so not exactly a fresh faced youngster) then he should be involved to get him gametime at international level
17. Ashman – Obvious really
18. Sutherland – Same as Ashman
19. Henderson
20. Dempsey (I prefer Fagerson starting, not least because I’m not loving this rule change that allows Dempsey to switch nationalities, but that’s a petty thing from my side)
21. Horne or Dobie – Horne is no longer the up and coming player and whilst he has been very good for Glasgow now he’s been given a chance, an argument could be made to get Dobie a run now, so that he’s not 27/28 before he’s even really had a proper tase of international rugby.  Happy with either to be honest, just might be a good chance to get Dobie into the side
22. Redpath
23. Smith

I realise now I’ve typed that team out that it’s far less controversial than I previously advertised at the start of this post.

I know he is good, but you have picked DVDM on both wings!

BigGee wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:This game has the potential to be interesting from a selection point of view.

Realistically we’re finishing 3rd this tournament.  I can’t see a world in which England beat Ireland, in Dublin to let them finish ahead of us, nor can I see France losing (spectacularly) in Paris to Wales, to let us sneak 2nd.

Therefore, this game is almost meaningless, which does tend to be the case quite a lot for our last game of the tournament against Italy, other than for wooden cutlery.  With that said, there is an argument that Toonie could release his inner tombola and go to town on the selection.

I’m not saying this is likely to be the squad, or if Toonie will actually stop fighting his natural inclinations to go full balls out with his selection, as he’s probably wanting to win against, a winless but improving Italian side, but if it was up to me, I’d be tempted to look at something along these lines;

1. Schoeman
2. Turner
3. Fagerson
4. Gray
5. Cummings
6. Ritchie
7. Darge (if fit, Crosbie if not)
8. M. Fagerson
9. White
10. Healy
11. Duhan
12. Tuipolotu
13. Jones
14. DVDM
15. Kinghorn

So far pretty similar to BG’s team.

16. Sebastian  - I don’t personally rate him, but I’m guessing someone at the SRU does, if he is seen as the future(ish, he’s 28 so not exactly a fresh faced youngster) then he should be involved to get him gametime at international level
17. Ashman – Obvious really
18. Sutherland – Same as Ashman
19. Henderson
20. Dempsey (I prefer Fagerson starting, not least because I’m not loving this rule change that allows Dempsey to switch nationalities, but that’s a petty thing from my side)
21. Horne or Dobie – Horne is no longer the up and coming player and whilst he has been very good for Glasgow now he’s been given a chance, an argument could be made to get Dobie a run now, so that he’s not 27/28 before he’s even really had a proper tase of international rugby.  Happy with either to be honest, just might be a good chance to get Dobie into the side
22. Redpath
23. Smith

I realise now I’ve typed that team out that it’s far less controversial than I previously advertised at the start of this post.

I know he is good, but you have picked DVDM on both wings!

My inability to multi task has let me down again

I'm going to go back and edit the post but will acknowledge my error here for all to share in my shame

So, Hogg and Russell out; Richie Grey stays in camp to be assessed.  Bayliss and Savala added.

Big blows, but a chance to look at our depth.  

I don't see that Savala will be near the 23 unless there are questions over Kinghorn as well.

John Barclay was talking up Cooney's inclusion last month, on account of his goal kicking. If ever he is to be added, it would realistically be here.

If we are being cynical about it - and why not - Healy can probably wait.

Don't see why Cooney would be considered primarily for his kicking. George Horne has been kicking, and kicking well, for Glasgow.

Rumours that Kinghorn is struggling as well

Surely they got to go with Healy at FH for this one. Ollie Smith may come knto the reckoning at FB

I don't actually mind us testing our depth a bit for this one. Some of these players are only an i jury away from starti g anyway and do need some exposure.

Italy will definitely be licking their lips about this one now. Is there any other player in the championship who is so fundamental to the way the team plays as Finn is for Scotland? Probably not.

It's also been a long old championship and two very mentally draining games recently. We definitely need to bring in fresh enthusiasm, which looks like it's going to happen anyway.

I think the bench is an obvious area for change and I'd replace the whole front row bench. I'd also cap Henderson.

The backs all depend on Kinghorn 's fitness - if he's fit he starts at 10, Healy bench. If he's not that means Healy start and Savala maybe?? I'd probably rather bench Redpath as an emergency 10.

Final thing to say is we really need to win this one. We desperately need to end the tournament on a high and give a positive finish to the squad before they next meet up. The players deserve 3 wins too for the effort that's gone in.

Surely they got to go with Healy at FH for this one

Please no. Far too soon to parachute him in. What does it say to our other fly halves that he gets parachuted in like that? Cooney certainly not. We have plenty of SH and do not need him

TJ wrote:

Surely they got to go with Healy at FH for this one

Please no.  Far too soon to parachute him in.  What does it say to our other fly halves that he gets parachuted in like that?  Cooney certainly not.  We have plenty of SH and do not need him

What other FHs?

Finn - injured

Kinghorn - in squad but also possibly injured

Duncy - not in squad and several years past international stage

Thompson - not in squad as injured

Savia - In squad but please! - This shows how poorly off we really are!


It is a straight play off between Kinghorn and Healy.

Kinghorn may also be required to play FB even if he is fit and Healy is a genuine FH who has played there all his career, we are lucky that he has committed to Scotland.

TJ wrote:

Surely they got to go with Healy at FH for this one

Please no.  Far too soon to parachute him in.  What does it say to our other fly halves that he gets parachuted in like that?  Cooney certainly not.  We have plenty of SH and do not need him

Out of interest, which other fly halfs..??

Savala isn't good enough for professional rugby. End of.

I'd start Healy and have Kinghorn at 15, bringing Smith onto the bench.

Cummings comes in for Ritchie Gray and I'd put Skinner on the bench.

Wouldn't change anything else, other than asking Schoeman and Fagerson to play the full 80 minutes because our other props are mince.

Is Hastings still injured? Haven't seen him mentioned.

demosthenes wrote:Is Hastings still injured?  Haven't seen him mentioned.

Just to answer myself, yes, it appears he is still out after shoulder injury.

I hadn't realised so many were broken I have to say. I still do not want Healy parachuted in tho. I'd rather play meatball

Healy has had no time with the players at all. He doesn't know the playbook.

TJ wrote:I hadn't realised so many were broken I have to say.  I still do not want Healy parachuted in tho. I'd rather play meatball

Healy has had no time with the players at all.  He doesn't know the playbook.

Thought he was with the squad? But if not, he is in just the same position vis a vis playbook, etc , as any other OH if all the squad members are broken.

Weir might be an emergency option, at least he would know most of the players.

Healy has been in the squad since the beginning of the tournament!

Russell, Kinghorn and Healy were picked as the fly halves so if kinghorn is available he shall probably start and Healy would win his first cap off the bench. Saying that if Healy started I don’t think that is a big problem either given he has been involved with the squad from the start.

Given the continuity of the squad a few players seem likely to miss out all together this 6N but they’re still vital for depth. Lots of rugby to be played over the next few months before the buildup to the World Cup.

The bill of health may be a blessing in disguise. Forces us to try some of the wider squad who, frankly, need to be tested sooner rather than later.

Healy has been signed for the Edinburgh 10 jersey and has played in big games for Munster. A semi-crocked Blairhorn is not going to be an upgrade.

Someone made a fair point about mentally and physically taxed side (the case if we lost, battle-tested if we win). Having young players who are new to the Six Nations get some experience at home against a renewed but flawed Italy side surrounded by some experienced campaigners (Turner, Fagersons, J Gray, Ritchie, H Jones, Steyn) is probably the best time to blood them rather than waiting for an injury crisis in the RWC and facing Ireland in a do-or-die match

It’s looking pretty wet in Edinburgh this weekend. Given Italy love to play fast and loose that might play into Scotland’s hands. It would have been better to have Russell and Hogg’s kicking but Healy is a very good kicker and Smith, Maitland and kinghorn also more that competent.

TJ wrote:I hadn't realised so many were broken I have to say.  I still do not want Healy parachuted in tho. I'd rather play meatball

Healy has had no time with the players at all.  He doesn't know the playbook.

BigGee wrote:Healy has been in the squad since the beginning of the tournament!

Plus Weir hasn't been in any squad at all for several years....he's not exactly going to know the gameplan either.

TJ you could just say "I don't want an Irish born person playing for Scotland!

There's too many d*mn Irish in our team, thats what I say! What with their well rounded skillset, professionalism, ability to win high intensity test matches, it's just not what I want in my Scotland team.

Call me a racist but I prefer to be a complete loser than have depth in the squad ahead of our pool games against South Africa, Ireland and Tonga.

I've been watching Scotland play since the Matt Williams days and all i know is whats important is winning the moral victory!

No-one is talking about Tonga in our pool, but with the players they are bringing back into their fold, they may be a banana skin waiting to happen and cannot be taken lightly at all by any of SA. Ireland or Scotland.

Hence the need for Scotland to have a full squad of international ready players and not jyst a good starting XV

That’s our undoing Gee

Our depth is horrendous. The drop in quality from our staters to many of our replacements is quite large.

The World Cup will be brutal. I can see us beating either Ireland or SA and whoever we beat then beats whoever beats us and Scotland will be the only side not to get a bonus point vs Tonga and boom, we’re out the cup on points.

RDW - I don't want him parachuted in. I donot believe he has any allegience to Scotland. He took a huff becvause he couldn't get a first team starter spot in Ireland and didn't get selected for Ireland so tried us.

Maybe I am wrong but to me he seems the worst sort of mercenary - not even honest about it like Visser was

TJ wrote:RDW - I don't want him parachuted in.  I donot believe he has any allegience to Scotland.  He took a huff becvause he couldn't get a first team starter spot in Ireland and didn't get selected for Ireland so tried us.

Maybe I am wrong but to me he seems the worst sort of mercenary - not even honest about it like Visser was

Same for Ben White?

The SRU interweb page FnB meme thingy has pics of 4 players today. Shona is joined by; Healey, Redpath and Ollie Smith.

jimbopip wrote:The SRU interweb page FnB meme thingy has pics of 4 players today. Shona is joined by; Healey, Redpath and Ollie Smith.

Healy starting at loosehead (the SRU thought it was the other Healy we pinched)

Redpath in the bench to cover the backline

Final changes I've been told include

Watson to start, fagerson to bench

Ollie Smith 15
BLAIRHORN 10

Skinner to replace injured Richie gray

Bench: ashman, sutherland, Nel, Cummings, fagerson, price, healy, redpath

Yes, happy with that team, if a little bit worried about a lack of a top kicker to start the game.

At some stage no doubt. We'll see BK drop back and Healy come on for his debut. Hopefully we'll be in front by then and he will close out the game.

If certsinly looks a better bench, especially pleased to see Ashman and Sutherland come in, our front row replacements last week were pretty dissapointing.

Scotland team to face Italy in the Guinness Six Nations on Saturday 18 March at BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh, kick-off 12:30pm GMT – live on BBC One

15. Ollie Smith (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
14. Kyle Steyn (Glasgow Warriors) 9 caps
13. Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) 35 caps
12. Sione Tuipulotu (Glasgow Warriors) – Vice-Captain – 15 caps
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Edinburgh Rugby) 27 caps

10. Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh Rugby) 42 caps
9. Ben White (London Irish) 13 caps

1. Pierre Schoeman (Edinburgh Rugby) 20 caps
2. George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) 34 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 57 caps
4. Sam Skinner (Edinburgh Rugby) 24 caps
5. Jonny Gray (Exeter Chiefs) – Vice-Captain – 76 caps
6. Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh Rugby) – Captain – 40 caps
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) 56 caps
8. Jack Dempsey (Glasgow Warriors) 8 caps

Replacements

16. Ewan Ashman (Sale Sharks) 6 caps
17. Rory Sutherland (Ulster Rugby) 22 caps
18. WP Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) 53 caps
19. Scott Cummings (Glasgow Warriors) 24 caps
20. Matt Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 32 caps
21. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) 60 caps
22. Ben Healy (Munster) uncapped
23. Cameron Redpath (Bath Rugby) 4 caps



Tramp spot on again!

I think the lesson that Toonie may have taken from last weekend is that we need some impact from the bench. We got just about nothing last week, but this one looks to have a lot more about it.

I'm pleased with that, and that front row bench looks much better and indeed the whole bench comes with more impact.

Not sure we need Redpath and Healy on the bench together though.

I think we need to get Healy up and running as the injury situation shows that we cannot always rely on Finn.

Redpath is never going to be more than an emergency stand in at FH but he deserves his chance as well as will likely be in the WC squad as well.

RDW wrote:I'm pleased with that, and that front row bench looks much better and indeed the whole bench comes with more impact.

Not sure we need Redpath and Healy on the bench together though.

Agreed on the front row bench. Real impact there, and a massive step-up from the mediocrity that came on last week (far too early in the game).

I'd have thrown in Healy, but not worried about Smith at 15 and we know that Kinghorn will offer a real running threat at 10. Concerned that we don't have a decent place kicker mind you. Suspect we'll have to score in multiples of 5!

Still, nice to see Watson back and Skinner/Gray is a grafting second row that will put in a big shift. Cummings and Fagerson will also bring impact off the bench.

I’m just gutted big Ritchie is gubbed. He’s been an absolute rock for us and is key to our lineouts as was evident vs Ireland

Fingers crossed that Finn is up and about before the end of the summer and can get up to speed again for the World Cup.

You do wonder if VDF would have had such an easy ride at hooker if it was big Ritchie jumping at the front instead

RDW wrote:You do wonder if VDF would have had such an easy ride at hooker if it was big Ritchie jumping at the front instead

Don’t. I still have ptsd. We didn’t even put a front jumper up. Nor did we ping kicks to the corner. We just were not switched on in noticing this weakness and failed miserably to potentially capitalise on it

Lesson learned you’d hope.

Cracking side for Italy. Great to see Redpath and Sutherland back, quality players. Great to see Ashman and smith getting a go too. Maybe a bit unfortunate for Henderson who could be a great lock for Scotland in the future but his chance will come this summer you’d expect.

Looking wet as for this weekend so it could be a bit scrappy. I’ll be in the west stand watching on! Can’t wait

Can't complain at that team and so glad to see Jones/Tuipulotu as the 12/13 combo as they have been excellent all 6N and also happy that Ollie Smith gets his shot because he was excellent in the summer and autumn .

It will be interesting to see how Ben Healy gets on and the reshuffles made when he comes on, will BK come off altogether or will he go to 15 or the wing with someone else replaced for Healy

I am slightly disappointed Cammy Henderson or Stafford McDowall didn't get any game time but as @bsando says, they'll likely get a chance in July/August .

The prospect of Redpath back has cheered me up. I know plenty of Bath fans who think he's still dining out on that first cap against England but quality is quality and he needs to be given the chance to get that mojo back.

Is Capuozzo the Deadly Pixie still injured? From a partisan perspective, I kinda hope so.

By the way, got 4 spares for Saturday if anyone is interested. PM me. Obviously top notch seats. You'll be practically sat on Princess Anne's lap.

funnyExiledScot wrote:By the way, got 4 spares for Saturday if anyone is interested. PM me. Obviously top notch seats. You'll be practically sat on Princess Anne's lap.

Butler service and footmen to keep riff raff like jimbo away?