Ukraine

First topic message reminder :

Today is first anniversary of the ahem, "special operation" that Russia has mounted against Ukraine. Been several excellent documentaries on it, the BBC Panorama one on Tuesday was superb.
Horrendous what that utter $%"^ Putin is doing.

Can only hope Western backing doesn't diminish. There is opposition to support America is giving from the Republican party apparently. Without support from Nato countries Ukraine won't win, even with it's going to be another brutal year at least.

mountain man wrote:

Why not more talk about Zelensky and his Mates taking money out of the Country..Locking up opposition leaders and silencing pro opposition radio and TV voices...

Not heard anything about these claims so whilst I'm not saying they are untrue, I'd like to see you back up your accusations with some proof.
Pretty sure if the Ukraine govt were as bad as you say then support be a little less than it is.

You mean like the Saudi Arabia who are destroying the Yemen......Don't hear much about that either because they are on the West's side...

Come on don't be so naive..

So, this proof then about Zelensky?

Got any or not.

mountain man wrote:So, this proof then about Zelensky?

Got any or not.

The Zelensky that has banned 11 opposition parties in the Ukraine including "Platform for life" one of his main opponents...Banned private TV stations...and turned up in the Pandora papers.......

Is it that Zelensky or another one ??

Like I said, got actual proof of just hearsay?

I'm not defending anything, just I like to have facts not rumours.

mountain man wrote:Like I said, got actual proof of just hearsay?

I'm not defending anything, just I like to have facts not rumours.

Not rumours are they hence I said he was in the Pandora papers and he banned ELEVEN parties....FFS.

So that's a no then. No doubt a Putin supporter.

mountain man wrote:So that's a no then. No doubt a Putin supporter.

Say something I've been programmed to disagree with... Putin supporter!

But here you go, took me 5 seconds

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/ukraine-suspends-11-political-parties-with-links-to-russia

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/10/4/pandora-papers-ukraine-leader-seeks-to-justify-offshore-accounts

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-zelenskiy-bans-three-opposition-tv-stations/a-56438505 - this seems to have been done before the war too.

It takes some impressive mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that Ukraine or Zelensky are somehow at fault for being invaded.

Soul Requiem wrote:It takes some impressive mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that Ukraine or Zelensky are somehow at fault for being invaded.

It would indeed. Who is doing that?

Anyone 'both siding' Russia and Ukraine in relation to this war is quite the c*nt.

mountain man wrote:So that's a no then. No doubt a Putin supporter.

Childish response...

superflyweight wrote:Anyone 'both siding' Russia and Ukraine in relation to this war is quite the c*nt.      

Not siding with either Country......Don't like either of them......

But I do care about innocent human life.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

superflyweight wrote:Anyone 'both siding' Russia and Ukraine in relation to this war is quite the c*nt.      

Not siding with either Country......Don't like either of them......

But I do care about innocent human life.....

There's one clear and obvious culprit for the loss of innocent human life in this conflict - but you seem reluctant to acknowledge that.

superflyweight wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

superflyweight wrote:Anyone 'both siding' Russia and Ukraine in relation to this war is quite the c*nt.      

Not siding with either Country......Don't like either of them......

But I do care about innocent human life.....

There's one clear and obvious culprit for the loss of innocent human life in this conflict - but you seem reluctant to acknowledge that.  

I've acknowledged Russia is the aggressor......I also acknowledge that Ukraine scores near the bottom when it comes to Human rights and Zelensky is no hero.....

This war can go on and on......and all wars generally end in some kind of compromise..

Personally I'd rather it came sooner than later..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

mountain man wrote:So that's a no then. No doubt a Putin supporter.

Childish response...

Aw diddums.

mountain man wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

mountain man wrote:So that's a no then. No doubt a Putin supporter.

Childish response...

Aw diddums.

Why don't you scroll up and look at The Goon's post.....Notice you avoided it..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

mountain man wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

mountain man wrote:So that's a no then. No doubt a Putin supporter.

Childish response...

Aw diddums.

Why don't you scroll up and look at The Goon's post.....Notice you avoided it..

Good thing he was there to back you up, you almost started looking foolish.

Samo wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

mountain man wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

mountain man wrote:So that's a no then. No doubt a Putin supporter.

Childish response...

Aw diddums.

Why don't you scroll up and look at The Goon's post.....Notice you avoided it..

Good thing he was there to back you up, you almost started looking foolish.

Didn't back me up as such...My points were valid....Just easier for the ignorant to attack the poster instead....I don't take it personally.

People use labels when they can't argue.....I don't like the Ukrainian Govt or the Russian one but I'm a Putin apologist because people on here can't debate...

Different back home where you can have a grown up debate.. ...Why the US is number 1...

The US is number one with a bullet (usually in school playgrounds).

I like the grown up debates they have in America. Like this one.

Now listen, you queer...

Duty281 wrote:I like the grown up debates they have in America. Like this one.

Now listen, you queer...

I agree it does sound interesting..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

mountain man wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

mountain man wrote:So that's a no then. No doubt a Putin supporter.

Childish response...

Aw diddums.

Why don't you scroll up and look at The Goon's post.....Notice you avoided it..

Nope been out on bike all day.

As for Zelensky suspending 11 political parties, ITS BECAUSE OF THEIR LINKS TO RUSSIA.

Not sure if you noticed but Russia has invaded Ukraine.

USA #1? At what exactly? Serious question.

Defense spending and incarcerations per capita.

Number one for obesity and shooting up schools.

Duty281 wrote:Number one for obesity and shooting up schools.

You ever wonder what would have happened to your little Island if we hadn't have implemented "The Marshall Plan"....$4 billion loan at a paltry 2% over 50 years to a dying Country that came begging....

How much would 4 billion be worth today ???........All because we liked our "little friend"...

Worst investment we ever made....But there is more to life than money...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Number one for obesity and shooting up schools.

You ever wonder what would have happened to your little Island if we hadn't have implemented "The Marshall Plan"....$4 billion loan at a paltry 2% over 50 years to a dying Country that came begging....

How much would 4 billion be worth today ???........All because we liked our "little friend"...

Worst investment we ever made....But there is more to life than money...

You seriously put down your cheeseburger to write that nonsense? Do better, Truss.

Timeline

A) British Foreign Minister pays an unannounced visit to Ukrainian President Zelensky.
For example we have the Sky News Report "Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy has met UK foreign secretary James Cleverly in Kyiv:  Mr Zelenskyy thanked the UK for its 'big support' and said he had made 'very important decisions' during his conversation with Prime Minister Rishi Sunak"
https://news.sky.com/video/ukrainian-president-volodymyr-zelenskyy-has-met-uk-foreign-secretary-james-cleverly-in-kyiv-12897071

B) Shortly after that visit the "Kakhovka dam" is blown up and the immediate narrative in the West is that the Russians did it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/06/russia-ukraine-war-live-dam-near-kherson-blown-up-by-russian-forces-ukrainian-military-says?


Quick Recap of the Reporting on the British Side:  When the Russians mounted what they called their "Special Military Operation" into Ukraine last year the British and most Western governments banned all access to Russian State Media for their citizens including IP blocking to such sites.  They then provided "emergency funding" to counter what was described as "Russian propaganda" with taxpayers money going to Western state media.  E.g. the BBC:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/bbc-gets-emergency-funding-to-fight-russian-disinformation

There is an old saying that the first casualty in any conflict is the truth or something.   Clearly lessons have been learnt over such things as "weapons of mass destruction" used for another conflict.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Number one for obesity and shooting up schools.

You ever wonder what would have happened to your little Island if we hadn't have implemented "The Marshall Plan"....$4 billion loan at a paltry 2% over 50 years to a dying Country that came begging....

How much would 4 billion be worth today ???........All because we liked our "little friend"...

Worst investment we ever made....But there is more to life than money...

Were you personally involved in any of that? Seems odd to take pride in something you had nothing to do with, other than to happen to be born in the same geographical location in a later time period.

Zelensky is a hero. He's a long way from being perfect. He wasn't that popular at home before the war. I would say he isn't obviously corrupt and he has been working to reduce corruption, but that isn't the most important stuff.

He's a hero because he is absolutely brilliant at saying the right thing at the right time, making the right gestures. 'Ammo not a ride' - appearing at the front lines. How good he is at being a leader is actually secondary, and he's not making military decisions because he's got specialists doing that for him. If he was to die tomorrow he'd become a martyr and Ukraine's soldiers would fight harder in his name.

Anyway it isn't just a spat between neighbours. Ukraine is an important source of grain for a number of other countries for one thing, and now with Russia's actions overnight that position as a breadbasket will be damaged for years. I am so happy that our friend Truss can content himself with disliking both sises when people start starving in Africa again

No name Bertie wrote:Timeline

A) British Foreign Minister pays an unannounced visit to Ukrainian President Zelensky.
For example we have the Sky News Report "Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy has met UK foreign secretary James Cleverly in Kyiv:  Mr Zelenskyy thanked the UK for its 'big support' and said he had made 'very important decisions' during his conversation with Prime Minister Rishi Sunak"
https://news.sky.com/video/ukrainian-president-volodymyr-zelenskyy-has-met-uk-foreign-secretary-james-cleverly-in-kyiv-12897071

B) Shortly after that visit the "Kakhovka dam" is blown up and the immediate narrative in the West is that the Russians did it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/06/russia-ukraine-war-live-dam-near-kherson-blown-up-by-russian-forces-ukrainian-military-says?


Quick Recap of the Reporting on the British Side:  When the Russians mounted what they called their "Special Military Operation" into Ukraine last year the British and most Western governments banned all access to Russian State Media for their citizens including IP blocking to such sites.  They then provided "emergency funding" to counter what was described as "Russian propaganda" with taxpayers money going to Western state media.  E.g. the BBC:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/bbc-gets-emergency-funding-to-fight-russian-disinformation

There is an old saying that the first casualty in any conflict is the truth or something.   Clearly lessons have been learnt over such things as "weapons of mass destruction" used for another conflict.

I'm trying to figure out the insinuation. Are you saying that you believe the Ukranians blew up their own dam and left thousands of their own people homeless?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Number one for obesity and shooting up schools.

You ever wonder what would have happened to your little Island if we hadn't have implemented "The Marshall Plan"....$4 billion loan at a paltry 2% over 50 years to a dying Country that came begging....

How much would 4 billion be worth today ???........All because we liked our "little friend"...

Worst investment we ever made....But there is more to life than money...

Were you personally involved in any of that? Seems odd to take pride in something you had nothing to do with, other than to happen to be born in the same geographical location in a later time period.

Thats nationalism for you.

Samo wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Number one for obesity and shooting up schools.

You ever wonder what would have happened to your little Island if we hadn't have implemented "The Marshall Plan"....$4 billion loan at a paltry 2% over 50 years to a dying Country that came begging....

How much would 4 billion be worth today ???........All because we liked our "little friend"...

Worst investment we ever made....But there is more to life than money...

Were you personally involved in any of that? Seems odd to take pride in something you had nothing to do with, other than to happen to be born in the same geographical location in a later time period.

Thats nationalism for you.

No it's saying if it wasn't for People like me you'd either be speaking German or you'd have been bankrupt and dead on your backside...Although I get being proud of your Country is a notion some people find hard to grasp.

The only thing Truman got wrong with the Marshall plan was not insisting Britain changed its name to "America's little B**ch"..

As for Ukr v Rus..........The Korean war...Vietnam...and most other wars in history end in compromise with very little changing....Especially the Korean..

This one will end in compromise too......So let's not have too many families getting devastated...That's what I say....

Broker a way however hard for both both to claim victory.

Soul Requiem wrote:I'm trying to figure out the insinuation. Are you saying that you believe the Ukranians blew up their own dam and left thousands of their own people homeless?

Our self-appointed internet policeman cast aspersions against someone providing a timeline.  I gave a timeline - make what you want out of it.  

And to correct an insinuation that you have made with your own comment:  The dam was and is under the control of the Russians, in the same way that the gas supply to Nordstream pipeline was fully under the control of the Russians, in the same way that the Russians have control over the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant.  

That the dam has been target of the Ukrainians has been known since July of last year and was the reason given for the Russian pull out from Kherson city.  The British have provided the Ukrainians with boat drones packed with explosives which have been used in a number of joint Ukrainian-British operations.   Both Britain and America have made a point of saying they are fully behind Zelensky and provide him with weapons, satellite intelligence, and planning.

No name Bertie wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I'm trying to figure out the insinuation. Are you saying that you believe the Ukranians blew up their own dam and left thousands of their own people homeless?

Our self-appointed internet policeman cast aspersions against someone providing a timeline.  I gave a timeline - make what you want out of it.  

And to correct an insinuation that you have made with your own comment:  The dam was and is under the control of the Russians, in the same way that the gas supply to Nordstream pipeline was fully under the control of the Russians, in the same way that the Russians have control over the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant.  

That the dam has been target of the Ukrainians has been known since July of last year and was the reason given for the Russian pull out from Kherson city.  The British have provided the Ukrainians with boat drones packed with explosives which have been used in a number of Ukrainian operations with the British.   Both Britain and America have made a point of saying they are fully behind Zelensky and provide him with weapons, satellite intelligence, and planning.

A simple yes would have sufficed.

Mel Gibson is making a 4 part docu-series on the $34 billion global child sex trafficking market involving the Ukraine.....

Could be interesting....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Samo wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Number one for obesity and shooting up schools.

You ever wonder what would have happened to your little Island if we hadn't have implemented "The Marshall Plan"....$4 billion loan at a paltry 2% over 50 years to a dying Country that came begging....

How much would 4 billion be worth today ???........All because we liked our "little friend"...

Worst investment we ever made....But there is more to life than money...

Were you personally involved in any of that? Seems odd to take pride in something you had nothing to do with, other than to happen to be born in the same geographical location in a later time period.

Thats nationalism for you.

No it's saying if it wasn't for People like me you'd either be speaking German or you'd have been bankrupt and dead on your backside...Although I get being proud of your Country is a notion some people find hard to grasp.

The only thing Truman got wrong with the Marshall plan was not insisting Britain changed its name to "America's little B**ch"..

As for Ukr v Rus..........The Korean war...Vietnam...and most other wars in history end in compromise with very little changing....Especially the Korean..

This one will end in compromise too......So let's not have too many families getting devastated...That's what I say....

Broker a way however hard for both both to claim victory.

You're proud of America?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:.... This one will end in compromise too....

Have you heard of the Minsk Agreements and what Angela Merkel and others have said about them?  There was also a peace agreement being brokered in April 2022 when the Russians pulled back from around Kyiv.  The timeline shows: peace negotiations, a visit by Boris Johnson, a Western media narrative of a massacre, and then Zelensky rejecting the peace agreement.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No it's saying if it wasn't for People like me you'd either be speaking German

People like you?

Go on then, Truss, which battle(s) did you fight in?

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No it's saying if it wasn't for People like me you'd either be speaking German

People like you?

Go on then, Truss, which battle(s) did you fight in?

Lost family members in WW2 in combat with the Japanese......They won't ever mess with America again will they....Don't moan about the two bombs either.....They saved allied lives.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No it's saying if it wasn't for People like me you'd either be speaking German

People like you?

Go on then, Truss, which battle(s) did you fight in?

Lost family members in WW2 in combat with the Japanese......They won't ever mess with America again will they....Don't moan about the two bombs either.....They saved allied lives.

I don't give a toss about the two bombs. Japan committed the worst atrocities of the war and they had to be stopped by any means necessary. If it weren't for the nuclear bombs, the war would have dragged into the 50s and maybe beyond that.

Just taking an issue with you saying 'people like you' won the war, when you didn't do a day's fighting. Grossly insulting to those who actually fought.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No it's saying if it wasn't for People like me you'd either be speaking German

People like you?

Go on then, Truss, which battle(s) did you fight in?

Lost family members in WW2 in combat with the Japanese......They won't ever mess with America again will they....Don't moan about the two bombs either.....They saved allied lives.

Terrorism is terrorism or does it only apply when done to the mighty USA?

With regard the dropping of two nuclear bombs on civilians in two Japanese cities after the defeat of the Nazis and while conflict was ongoing but reaching its final stages in Japan - the effect of the two bombs in significantly shortening the war and reducing the number of possible final casualties is debatable.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Number one for obesity and shooting up schools.

You ever wonder what would have happened to your little Island if we hadn't have implemented "The Marshall Plan"....$4 billion loan at a paltry 2% over 50 years to a dying Country that came begging....

How much would 4 billion be worth today ???........All because we liked our "little friend"...

Worst investment we ever made....But there is more to life than money...

This, in a nutshell, is the 'typical' American. Hell yeah!

Well done. Pillock.

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No it's saying if it wasn't for People like me you'd either be speaking German

People like you?

Go on then, Truss, which battle(s) did you fight in?

Lost family members in WW2 in combat with the Japanese......They won't ever mess with America again will they....Don't moan about the two bombs either.....They saved allied lives.

I don't give a toss about the two bombs. Japan committed the worst atrocities of the war and they had to be stopped by any means necessary. If it weren't for the nuclear bombs, the war would have dragged into the 50s and maybe beyond that.

Just taking an issue with you saying 'people like you' won the war, when you didn't do a day's fighting. Grossly insulting to those who actually fought.

.....'Americans' beat Japan and with Russia won WW2 with some help from Britain.....'People like me..'..I like Britain..I'm married to a Brit.

Anyway...You know how the ditty goes....

When Captain America throws his mighty shield..
All those that choose to oppose the Shield must Yield.
If it comes to a fight and the duellers duel..
The Red and the White and the Blue will come thru..

When Captain America throw his mighty shield....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No it's saying if it wasn't for People like me you'd either be speaking German

People like you?

Go on then, Truss, which battle(s) did you fight in?

Lost family members in WW2 in combat with the Japanese......They won't ever mess with America again will they....Don't moan about the two bombs either.....They saved allied lives.

I don't give a toss about the two bombs. Japan committed the worst atrocities of the war and they had to be stopped by any means necessary. If it weren't for the nuclear bombs, the war would have dragged into the 50s and maybe beyond that.

Just taking an issue with you saying 'people like you' won the war, when you didn't do a day's fighting. Grossly insulting to those who actually fought.

.....'Americans' beat Japan and with Russia won WW2 with some help from Britain.....'People like me..'..I like Britain..I'm married to a Brit.

Anyway...You know how the ditty goes....

When Captain America throws his mighty shield..
All those that choose to oppose the Shield must Yield.
If it comes to a fight and the duellers duel..
The Red and the White and the Blue will come thru..

When Captain America throw his mighty shield....

'Captain America' couldn't win a war in Vietnam, with or without his tiny shield.

America's a complete dump of a country, though, I can see why you'd rather live here.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Samo wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Number one for obesity and shooting up schools.

You ever wonder what would have happened to your little Island if we hadn't have implemented "The Marshall Plan"....$4 billion loan at a paltry 2% over 50 years to a dying Country that came begging....

How much would 4 billion be worth today ???........All because we liked our "little friend"...

Worst investment we ever made....But there is more to life than money...

Were you personally involved in any of that? Seems odd to take pride in something you had nothing to do with, other than to happen to be born in the same geographical location in a later time period.

Thats nationalism for you.

No it's saying if it wasn't for People like me you'd either be speaking German or you'd have been bankrupt and dead on your backside...Although I get being proud of your Country is a notion some people find hard to grasp.

The only thing Truman got wrong with the Marshall plan was not insisting Britain changed its name to "America's little B**ch"..

As for Ukr v Rus..........The Korean war...Vietnam...and most other wars in history end in compromise with very little changing....Especially the Korean..

This one will end in compromise too......So let's not have too many families getting devastated...That's what I say....

Broker a way however hard for both both to claim victory.

God, you're arrogant. We wouldn't be speaking German; we'd likely be speaking Russian you plum. As would most of Europe.

One could easily posit that any support from America was wholly selfish and political in order to stymie the U.S.S.R. America ensured that there'd be no British Empire post-WWII. No problem with that - it's geopolitics, but you can just **** off.

And if it weren't for the British, the Yanks would be speaking Spanish. Or French. And if it weren't for the Normans, we might still be speaking Old English. And round and round it goes.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Mel Gibson is making a 4 part docu-series on the $34 billion global child sex trafficking market involving the Ukraine.....

Could be interesting....

Mel Gibson? Good grief. That upstanding non-misogynist? I await this contribution to the pantheon of great historical documentaries with bated breath...

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Samo wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Number one for obesity and shooting up schools.

You ever wonder what would have happened to your little Island if we hadn't have implemented "The Marshall Plan"....$4 billion loan at a paltry 2% over 50 years to a dying Country that came begging....

How much would 4 billion be worth today ???........All because we liked our "little friend"...

Worst investment we ever made....But there is more to life than money...

Were you personally involved in any of that? Seems odd to take pride in something you had nothing to do with, other than to happen to be born in the same geographical location in a later time period.

Thats nationalism for you.

No it's saying if it wasn't for People like me you'd either be speaking German or you'd have been bankrupt and dead on your backside...Although I get being proud of your Country is a notion some people find hard to grasp.

The only thing Truman got wrong with the Marshall plan was not insisting Britain changed its name to "America's little B**ch"..

As for Ukr v Rus..........The Korean war...Vietnam...and most other wars in history end in compromise with very little changing....Especially the Korean..

This one will end in compromise too......So let's not have too many families getting devastated...That's what I say....

Broker a way however hard for both both to claim victory.

God, you're arrogant. We wouldn't be speaking German; we'd likely be speaking Russian you plum.

Like I said Russia and the US won the War with help from Britain....

Without that help you would be called Karl Heinz...But on the brightside you would be better in penalty shootouts..

Being right isn't arrogant.....It's being right...

No name Bertie wrote:With regard the dropping of two nuclear bombs on civilians in two Japanese cities after the defeat of the Nazis and while conflict was ongoing but reaching its final stages in Japan - the effect of the two bombs in significantly shortening  the war and reducing the number of possible final casualties is debatable.

It really isn't, you know. Please also don't start trying to view the use of those devices through 21st century eyes and away from the context of time they were used; much appreciated.