The Welsh Regions and the URC

by LordDowlais Thu 14 Apr 2022, 12:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was reading the latest article on WOL the other day titled How to save Welsh rugby - The uncomfortable truth facing our game and the difficult solutions that need to be explored. There was the usual nonsense spouted, and the demonising of the semi pro game getting too many votes and the what not, but it did get me thinking, especially the bit about reducing the waste and fixing the pathways. Here is the link if any of you are interested:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-save-welsh-rugby-uncomfortable-23671119

What started me thinking was how the regions could live within their means and still be competitive, and to be honest, they cannot. Then I started thinking about the league since it's inception and the regions involvement, has it really been a success ?

Trophy wise you could argue a point, but then I started thinking a little more. Leinster and Ulster aside, the Welsh regions average about the same attendances as the rest, but on derby day the Welsh regions get full houses. So the question I wanted to ask, is the league a good thing for Welsh rugby ?

Wales is a small place, and the teams rely on ALL the fans, both home and away. Would playing in a Welsh league do more for Welsh rugby than the league they are in now ? The teams would get bigger crowds I would wager. It is far easier to travel from Newport to Llanelli than it is from any Welsh region to Glasgow or Dublin. Would we get a lot more "full" stadiums if it were Welsh teams playing Welsh teams every week ? At the moment, the regions just rely on their own fans turning up, and none of the regions have a massive city like Dublin, or a whole country like Ulster to back them up.

I know a Welsh league would struggle to get the TV money the URC can generate, but would the extra fans at the ground make up for it ? I don't know, I'm no expert in these things, all I can say is what I bare witness to, and the URC is not very popular here in Wales, even after the best part 20 odd years, it's been messed around with too much, and people do not know what they are following anymore, changes of structure, changes of tv companies ect.....

I would like to see a 8/10 team Welsh league, with the best players from "each region" playing in a 4 team end of season regional league, where the top two go into the the top tier Euro comp, and the bottom two go into the lower Euro comp. Yes the regions still compete in Europe, but the players also represent their clubs in the league, rekindle the old rivalries, which still have the embers burning by the way.

Also, I would like to see a shake-up of the coaches in Wales, there are far too many jobs for the boys, people getting highly paid at the regions to do jobs that most people volunteer to do in the leagues below. Even though most of the article is just personal opinion, there is a lot to surmise from reading it.

Also, can we please debate the article and the subject, and not me. Very Happy

What are the thoughts of other fans on this subject ?

by RugbyFan100 Mon 09 May 2022, 4:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

For a start one wants to sacrifice the community game so that his team can have more

Literally nobody has said that. That is an outright lie.

by Jimmy Moz Mon 09 May 2022, 4:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:How can you expect a supporter to start supporting a team that refuses to have anything but what they always have been ?

I guess at least Cardiff Rugby have finally admitted that they are not a region, never have been and never will be. That shut up some of my Blues mates who think anyone from the Valley's refusing to watch Cardiff is some kind of slur on Welsh rugby. It doesn't occur to them that Cardiff's refusal of anything to do with the Valley's other than having Valley's players in the squad/academy might put people off. These guys would never support the British & Irish Lions if they were called the England Roses. To be honest mind I don't really think anyone refuses to watch the Cardiff Rugby Blues Rags or whatever they are called anymore. No one gives a flying about the team or the product they offer. Simple as that.

by LordDowlais Mon 09 May 2022, 4:48 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

For a start one wants to sacrifice the community game so that his team can have more

Literally nobody has said that. That is an outright lie.

So what are these comment supposed to mean then ?

RugbyFan100 wrote:Ideally the community rugby and sevens rugby money needs to come down by a few million a year.

RugbyFan100 wrote:It is a hobby whether you like the term or not. Nearly £12m are spent on these clubs a year..... In a day and age when the professional leg of the sport in Wales is on it's arse.

There are a few more, but I cannot be bothered going through this whole thread to find them.

by LordDowlais Mon 09 May 2022, 4:54 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:How can you expect a supporter to start supporting a team that refuses to have anything but what they always have been ?
I guess at least Cardiff Rugby have finally admitted that they are not a region, never have been and never will be. That shut up some of my Blues mates who think anyone from the Valley's refusing to watch Cardiff is some kind of slur on Welsh rugby. It doesn't occur to them that Cardiff's refusal of anything to do with the Valley's other than having Valley's players in the squad/academy might put people off. These guys would never support the British & Irish Lions if they were called the England Roses. To be honest mind I don't really think anyone refuses to watch the Cardiff Rugby Blues Rags or whatever they are called anymore. No one gives a flying about the team or the product they offer. Simple as that.

Yep and we saw it all before as well. Llanelli threatening to take a bankrupt WRU to court at the start, then all the fans throwing their toys out of the pram when it was suggested that Scarlets and Ospreys should merge a few months back. You couldn't write about it could you ? Oh hang on, they have. Laugh

All jokes aside though, that is another massive hurdle we have in Wales, with the sport we all follow, massive hypocrisy. People telling others how it is, when they have not been through half of what others have when it comes to supporting Welsh rugby.

by Guest Mon 09 May 2022, 4:56 pm

Oakdene wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Yes Scarlets are a good example I think. Pivac did well but took time to bed in, Mooar was good and I thought Delaney would have been good in the long run. Scarlets now have Peel at the helm with some recent ex-players as coaches. Ben Franks is a big name player but a relative newcomer as a coach at this level. Dai Flanagan is only a few years out of playing and is now backs coach for a European rugby side. And he wasn’t great as a player either. Hugh Hogan? Leinster age grade and A teams. And Peel himself? Not a huge run up to him becoming Scarlets head coach. And I wonder if the results and performances are indicative of a coaching team a little out of depth at this level?

If we ignore the ridiculous amount of injuries we have had (think we were missing 21 players for one of the games against the Dragons), surely you can't say that Pivac did well after the initial rocky period & say that the early results & performances for Peel & co mean they're out of their depth. We have played some really nice rugby this season, scoring tries for fun at times but we do need to work on our defence. I was worried when we appointed Hugh Hogan as a defence coach when he was contact skills coach at Leinster & given only Zebre have conceded more points that us, my worry remains.

Hey Oakdene, Scarlets are my 2nd team so I’ve got no beef with them. I want them to do well. Yes, I can see how my post might be a bit contradictory but my point was about the experience of the current coaching team. I just don’t think they look like a coaching setup that screams of a top pro team. Scarlets have been our top region for a few years but the coaching teams seem to have declined since Pivac IMO. And I think the results have followed.

by Brendan Mon 09 May 2022, 4:56 pm

While a bit tongue in cheek but the SARU would probably pay good money to get the 4th Welsh spot for the Cheetahs.

If they get rid of one Region it is then easier to get rid of another one in 10 years and be down to two.

People always compare Welsh teams to Leinster but not Munster and Ulster. They don't have the private school pipeline of Leinster either but are constantly outperforming the Welsh Regions. Munster probably has the largest % of supporters who are 100km (Cork city) from their stadium. Both are bringing through young talent to top up their squads.

Welsh Regions probably have more schools who play rugby in their area than either Ulster or Munster and definitely Connacht and most of those schools are not the high performance centres Leinster have.

How compeditive is the school comps in Wales. Ireland has the 4 regional cup but no all Ireland one. If you get in the junior Munster squads u14-18 you have to be at one of the top clubs in your area or at one of the top schools so they can be playing at a higher level from a young age. Is it like that in Wales.

by Guest Mon 09 May 2022, 5:14 pm

*quoted the wrong post so editing this one!*

by RugbyFan100 Mon 09 May 2022, 5:20 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

For a start one wants to sacrifice the community game so that his team can have more

Literally nobody has said that. That is an outright lie.

So what are these comment supposed to mean then ?

RugbyFan100 wrote:Ideally the community rugby and sevens rugby money needs to come down by a few million a year.

RugbyFan100 wrote:It is a hobby whether you like the term or not. Nearly £12m are spent on these clubs a year..... In a day and age when the professional leg of the sport in Wales is on it's arse.

There are a few more, but I cannot be bothered going through this whole thread to find them.

The community game needs a review to see where the money goes. It needs an audit to make sure the 12m that goes on it is spent where it is supposed to be spent, and not on enticing players back from Uni every weekend by paying them a £50 backhander to play for Division 3 teams. That sort of audit would lead to the Union being able to tell which clubs are performing as they should and which are not. The community game is supposed to be amateur, but it is not, and that badly needs fiing.

"Sacrificing the community game" is just a pathetic, sweeping generalisation.

by RugbyFan100 Mon 09 May 2022, 5:24 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Llanelli threatening to take a bankrupt WRU to court at the start.

Pontypridd RFC also did exactly the same. Funny how nobody ever adds that context.

by Guest Mon 09 May 2022, 5:58 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Some good points there, Rec. An interesting one about the football and something I think perfectly sums up the ridiculousness of the current ‘regional’ approach in rugby. People say we’re losing fans to football because club rugby fans are becoming disenfranchised. Yet look at the top football clubs in Wales: Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Wrexham. The FAW didn’t force them to ditch their place names and become ‘East Wales Titans’ or ‘North Wales Raiders’. They have developed a fan base from all over Wales simply by existing, winning a bit, getting some promotions (and then relegation)…..all while being named after the places they are based.

I really have a problem when people compare the regions to the pro football teams in Wales, there are so many variables.

Take Swansea City FC for example, who are their direct competition ? Who could they lose fans to ? Swansea city FC get fans from all over Swansea and West Wales, I have a caravan in Tenby, and you see loads of Swansea city tops being worn over there.

Now in the same area, you have Ospreys, Scarlets and about 100 or so rugby clubs, all in direct competition with each other, even teams like Neath and Llandovery and Camerthen in the Welsh prem. All rugby teams, around two regions with not only people directly involved, but going to support them as well, all these people might be lost to the regions, but they are not lost to Welsh rugby, if you average it out between all the age grades at all the rugby clubs, players wise, you would be at about 100 people, adults and kids, then times that by lets say 100 clubs, that's potentially ten thousand people in that region who might not have the time or money to be in two places at once, so they cannot go and watch their region, and that does not even include all the fans. Swansea city FC will not get that problem at that scale.

Secondly, but not surprisingly, people are not taking into account the pyramid/competition the football clubs all mentioned are in. Yes, that's right, the English leagues. All clubs that you can go and watch your team play against without having to fly or sail to get to and lets not forget the historic rivalries that the border clubs have, Bristol City, Bristol Rovers ect....

If we are going to compare the professional football teams with the pro rugby teams lets take everything into account. I bet if you added Cardiff and Dragons average gate, and compared it to Cardiff cities average gate, they would not be that far off.

The Oracle wrote:Back in 2003 I was fully on board with the regional approach in rugby but for the past 7 or so years I’ve come to realise how damaging it has been. It has developed a sense of entitlement in fans across Wales. Suddenly fans feel they need to be ‘represented’ and if there is no pro team that covers their area then rugby is somehow doing them a disservice and they decide to walk away. But even in the halcyon days of the Welsh top flight before the regions you still had only 12 or so pro teams. All town and city based, and proud to use their place name. Places like Newport, Pontypool, Caerphilly, Cardiff, Pontypridd, Llanelli, Ebbw Vale, Swansea, Bridgend, Neath, etc. Only those 12 or so towns and cities were ‘represented’ in pro rugby, yet there were no calls of disenfranchisement as we hear now. Just picking places at random now, but if you were from Abertillery, Monmouth, Newtown, Aberystwyth, Cardigan….you could name hundreds of places…..they didn’t have a pro team either. But it was never an issue. Their club teams had some support and locals probably supported a pro team in varying degrees of interest too. But the regional approach has created this situation where everyone feels they have to have a pro side to represent them. Football shows us that clubs do not need to represent anyone. They can represent you if you support them, regardless of where you live. There are big groups of valleys Cardiff city fans, for example. Yet the thought of that in rugby is apparently out of the question. I know of coach services to take fans from the valleys to Liverpool to watch them play, and they are oversubscribed. Liverpool doesn’t represent the valleys of South Wales. So unfortunately I think we’ve opened some sort of can of worms with regional rugby and I don’t know how we’re going to get it back to where it was. If at all.

Thats a very unfair view on things. We saw the outrage a few months ago when the idea of merging two regions caused.

The thing is, people were not demanding to be given something, people were demanding to be included. At least with three of the regions you had something to get behind "Gwent" Dragons. "Neath/Swansea" Ospreys, "Llanelli" Scarlets, what were the other region called "CARDIFF" Blues.

How can you expect a supporter to start supporting a team that refuses to have anything but what they always have been ? There is no sense of entitlement, and it is comments like that which are rife, that ruins any bridge building.

Yes not every club were as elite as the Pontypridd's and Cardiff's and Neath's of this world, but even the teams in the lower divisions were included, as they had the opportunity to challenge, play or emulate these clubs. Every fan felt included, and that is what we need to understand, it's not a sense of entitlement, far from it.

You mention buses going to Liverpool, yes you are correct, they have them in Merthyr, but perhaps we should consider the product on offer, the URC unfortunately is not a product to be desired at the moment, hopefully it will be, but they first need to repair the damage they caused by putting their product on a channel nobody in Wales were going to fork out for, bar a few of the regional fans, and they need to stop messing about with it, and make it easier for the average casual fan to start following, its changed so many times since it's inception, nobody knows what's going on, the Premier Football league has bee just that for 30 years.

Again, sorry if it sounds like I am having a rant, but I am not.

The point is, LD, people should just support who they want rather than complain no team has been created to cater for them. If you live in Rhyl but support Scarlets, great. If you live in the Gwent region but support Pontypool only, great. There shouldn’t be a problem with that. If you don’t support any team because there is no pro team in your area that is fine too but there shouldn’t be one created for you just because one doesn’t exist already. This has been the biggest issue with ‘regional’ rugby, and now we have ridiculous suggestions from people trying to get everyone covered such as ‘create north, south, east and west regions’; or ‘let’s close the current teams and create east and west teams. What’s that, where will they play? Oh, in Cardiff and Swansea!’ Just drawing lines on the map for rugby support has been shown over the last 20 years not to work. I think our history, culture and tradition is for club teams (like in England). They (England) don’t have pro sides that cover everyone and it seems to work fine there. We didn’t have top flight teams to cover the whole country for over 100 years and that was fine too. Just let clubs be clubs and let people support who they want.

by RugbyFan100 Mon 09 May 2022, 7:20 pm

This is how it is in Wales. This is how the game is run. By amateur hobby rugby enthusiasts, who are so entitled, they have brought about the downfall of the sport in their own country. Selfish, arrogant and narrow minded:

The plan to revolutionise Welsh rugby that was killed by the amateur clubs four years ago

There was a plan to prevent all this, but it was stopped as the amateur clubs maintained control

The governance of Welsh rugby has been thrust into the spotlight in recent weeks, with the game here teetering on the edge of chaos.

Panic buttons have been smashed simultaneously all along the M4 corridor. All four pro teams have missed out on the URC play-offs and the men's, women's and under-20s sides all lost to Italy in this year's Six Nations. Financially, the regions are treading water and, by their own admission in some cases, are unable to compete in the league.

Fans across the country are furious with the Union's handling of the situation. We're at the point where regional chairmen and head coaches are openly criticising the game's governing body. Professional rugby in Wales is a circus and those tasked with the running of it are largely unable to rectify things because of the WRU's governance structure, which is decades past its sell-by date.

There was a plan to prevent all this and it was put before the clubs four years ago. But the community clubs buried it and effectively neutered the Professional Rugby Board (PRB), which is tasked with the running of the elite game. This is because the PRB can't make a move without the WRU Board - which has a community game majority - approving it, which is crucial.

In 2017, then-WRU Chairman Gareth Davies and Chief Executive Martyn Phillips recognised that reform was way overdue. They attempted to make changes that would bring the organisation up to speed with professionalism and make it agile enough to operate the way it needed to.

So they put a proposal together which involved;

Cutting the WRU Board from 20 to 12 members
Bringing five appointed 'area' directors onto the board, instead of five 'district' council members elected by the clubs
Appointing an independent chairperson, with a casting vote, to the Board
Splitting the running of the game in Wales with the creation of the Professional Rugby Board and Community Game Board
Ring-fencing the community game's £11.8 million funding, to smooth the changes over

A key part of the proposals involved doing away with the nine 'districts' and the creation of five 'areas' which would fall within the boundaries of the four professional regions plus one in Mid/North Wales.

The WRU would appoint a director, via an interview process which would assess the individual's business experience and suitability for the role, to head up the five 'areas' and sit on the WRU Board. Those area directors would then head up boards of their own, which would consist of a rep from the regional side, a Premiership rep, a Championship rep and grassroots club reps from within their area.

They would be tasked with ensuring the player development pathway systems in their area were working and that regions were effectively reaching out to clubs in their area to drive affiliation and ultimately attendances. The hope was that with the game aligning at all levels, general interest and participation would rise.

As well as ring-fencing the funding, another condition of the proposals was that the pro-game also had to modernise, which led to the appointments of David Buttress at the Dragons, Simon Muderack at the Scarlets, Alun Jones at Cardiff and eventually Y11s takeover of the Ospreys, with Nick Garcia coming in as CEO. In short, the pro-game held up their end of the bargain.

The proposals were passed in principle by the then-cumbersome 20-member Board and would be put forward at the AGM in 2018, where the clubs would decide.

In the six months that preceded the AGM, Phillips and Davies went on a roadshow around the nine districts in Wales to sell their vision. A source who was in attendance at one of the meetings said the WRU chiefs did not mince their words and issued stark warnings over the current structure.
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It's understood that the feedback was that it was too much change in one go and that a better course of action would be to make some of the changes at the 2018 AGM and then get the rest of the changes through at the next one. This is where the amateur game got cute.

What was agreed at the 2018 AGM was the cutting of the Board from 20 to 12 members, the splitting of the professional and community game and the ringfenced funding. Crucially, Davies and Phillips were not able to get through an independent chairperson or the five appointed area directors.

What they wanted was a 12-person board comprising of;

An independent chairperson, WRU CEO, WRU Finance Director, Chair of the Community Game Board, Chair of the Professional Rugby Board, Two non-executive directors and appointed area directors.

A board set up in this way would be far more conducive to change in the professional game and be more likely to pass proposals that the PRB put forward, given that it would not be riddled with allegiances to the community game.

What we ended up with in 2018, and still have today, is a board comprising of;

WRU CEO, three independent directors (including Chair of the Professional Rugby Board), Chair of the Community Game Board (Rob Butcher, the WRU Chairman), two national council members (both elected by clubs) and five district council members (all elected by clubs).

Announcing the governance change, the WRU trumpeted the approval of 'proposals to modernise the governance structures of the game and revolutionise rugby in Wales for generations to come'. In truth, they revolutionised nothing.

Out of the 12 members on the WRU Board, eight of them were elected by the community clubs. That means any move the PRB wants to make still has to be signed off by a board that has a majority of members elected into roles by the amateur game. That is a problem and is why the pro game is effectively in a state of paralysis, unable to quickly make changes it needs in order to recover from the current situation.

Weren't Davies and Phillips supposed to come back and complete their changes at the next AGM? Get their independent chair and do away with the nine districts?

They were. But before they could, the community clubs - who will protect their right to call an Emergency General Meeting, which requires just 32 clubs, at all costs - ousted Davies from his role as chairman and replaced him with Rob Butcher. Seeing the situation for what it was, Phillips also left his post as CEO.

The community game had their funding ring-fenced, installed a chairman who has done little to dispel his reputation as simply a grassroots man and maintained their control on the WRU Board. Taking the money and getting rid of Davies, refusing to allow the kind of reform befitting of an almost £100 million business was a display of flagrant self-interest from the clubs and the floundering pro game is paying the price.

What Welsh rugby is also left with is a chairman, CEO, Commercial Director and Finance Director who have previously never held an equivalent role before. So in the midst of an all-out crisis, they have little practical experience to fall back on.

Many in Welsh rugby ponder how the game here might look had we thrown our lot in with the English league structure when the opportunity presented itself two decades ago. It is viewed as a missed opportunity that is still rued to this day.

Similarly, how different might the outlook be for the game in Wales had things turned out differently in 2018.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/plan-revolutionise-welsh-rugby-killed-23907697

by Oakdene Tue 10 May 2022, 8:59 am

The Oracle wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Yes Scarlets are a good example I think. Pivac did well but took time to bed in, Mooar was good and I thought Delaney would have been good in the long run. Scarlets now have Peel at the helm with some recent ex-players as coaches. Ben Franks is a big name player but a relative newcomer as a coach at this level. Dai Flanagan is only a few years out of playing and is now backs coach for a European rugby side. And he wasn’t great as a player either. Hugh Hogan? Leinster age grade and A teams. And Peel himself? Not a huge run up to him becoming Scarlets head coach. And I wonder if the results and performances are indicative of a coaching team a little out of depth at this level?

If we ignore the ridiculous amount of injuries we have had (think we were missing 21 players for one of the games against the Dragons), surely you can't say that Pivac did well after the initial rocky period & say that the early results & performances for Peel & co mean they're out of their depth. We have played some really nice rugby this season, scoring tries for fun at times but we do need to work on our defence. I was worried when we appointed Hugh Hogan as a defence coach when he was contact skills coach at Leinster & given only Zebre have conceded more points that us, my worry remains.

Hey Oakdene, Scarlets are my 2nd team so I’ve got no beef with them. I want them to do well. Yes, I can see how my post might be a bit contradictory but my point was about the experience of the current coaching team. I just don’t think they look like a coaching setup that screams of a top pro team. Scarlets have been our top region for a few years but the coaching teams seem to have declined since Pivac IMO. And I think the results have followed.

I agree somewhat but I feel we need to actually give Peel some time to work things through, I would expect to see us in a better place by the end of next season. We desperately need to get a better defensive structure in place as we have shipped 50 points 4 times this season.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 10 May 2022, 9:02 am

Hobby rugby? You mean amateur?

by Oakdene Tue 10 May 2022, 9:06 am

Players are paid in division 3, it may not be much but I know of one player who is championship standard but plays for his local club as they pay his mortgage for him. We played that team & it was close until half time then they brought him on & well the rest is history.

There does need to be a separation between the amateur game & the professional game but people have to remember that the majority of the players playing for Wales & the regions started out on wet & miserable Sunday mornings down their local club playing tag rugby.

by Guest Tue 10 May 2022, 10:27 am

I don't think anyone is saying to get rid of the community game. It will still be there as it always has and will continue to feed up to the pro game, so those who shine in the lower divisions will still rise up through the leagues and get spotted for a pro contract. What needs to be separated is the governance. As mentioned before, if the WRU chairman or chef exec proposed changes to the pro game (including more funding to them) and the amateur clubs do not like it then just 10% of them can trigger an EGM and they can vote to remove the guy in charge. That is apparently what happened with Gareth Davies and he was replaced (as voted by the clubs) by Rob Butcher who is very much a grass roots rugby man now heading up a multi million pound business with little experience of such a thing. But he was voted in by grass roots clubs as someone they saw as less of a threat. He's got no experience of pro rugby but now he's running the show at that level for the national team and the pro clubs. So perhaps separate arms of the WRU are needed for grass roots and pro?

On another note I don't think I've actually heard from Butcher. Has he done any press conferences of note? He's been in post since Nov 2020 but I can't remember seeing or hearing him. Not sure i'd know him if he walked past in the street. Don't think he's come out and contributed anything in this regional discussion has he? Previous chairmen seem to have been much more visible and vocal.

by Jimmy Moz Tue 10 May 2022, 10:28 am

I heard David Moffett being mentioned on BBC Radio Wales news. Couldn't quite catch what they said though. I assume it's to do with the cutting down to 3 teams. Probably the only thing I have agreed with the man on.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 10 May 2022, 2:46 pm

From the BBC:

'The man who brought about the existence of Wales' four professional teams says they should be replaced by three clubs.

David Moffett was Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) chief executive when the initial five teams were launched in 2003.

He says Welsh rugby is a global "laughing stock" and WRU-owned Dragons should be ditched unless bought out.

"There's a saying isn't there: the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome," he said.

In a wide-ranging interview with BBC Radio Wales, Moffett also said:

The United Rugby Championship (URC) is not working because fans do not travel in great numbers to away games.
Welsh teams should play in England, "but that's never going to happen".
Welsh infighting must stop, with making Wales "a winning national team" the starting point.
Three teams would mean Wales coach Wayne Pivac having "quality over quantity to choose from".
His original plan for regions has not worked because while WRU clubs overwhelmingly backed it, "the people that didn't vote for it were the fans".
Moffett's belief that Welsh rugby can sustain only three professional teams mirrors that of a proposal to cut a Welsh region which emerged in a report commissioned by the Professional Rugby Board (PRB).

The PRB runs the professional game in Wales, with members from the four regions and WRU sitting on the board, which has Malcolm Wall as an independent chairman.

Debates over Welsh rugby's structure resurfaced after a fifth-place finish in the 2022 Six Nations and with none of its regions making a significant impact in Europe or the URC.

Moffett said Welsh rugby "is at war with itself continuously" and questioned the WRU board and leading figures' ability to improve the game's fortunes at international and domestic level.

"I don't know what the board and executives have by way of key performance indicators, but obviously they are not fit for purpose because if they were you would have seen in the last 10 to 15 years an improvement in the Welsh rugby set-up - in fact, it's going backwards," he said.

Moffett added: "I've said for some time that regional rugby and the concept that I put in place has not worked, mainly because the Welsh believe that they've got a mortgage on parochialism, and that parochialism can work for you or in this case against you.

"And so what do we do? We see this unedifying spectacle every year about, you know, Pontypridd should have a professional team, or that valley should be a professional team, and it goes nowhere and it affects Welsh rugby really badly.

"So for a couple of years now I've been suggesting it was right for the time, it's obviously not right now, so scrap it, just have three club-based teams.

"It's not going to make any difference to the number of people that actually support them because the regions are not being supported now anyway."

Archive: February, 2003 - WRU drops provincial bombshell
Archive: March, 2003 - Moffett accepts five-team plan
Archive: July, 2003 - Wales' regional squads
Dragons are again Wales' worst-performing team, with two URC wins and a draw from their 16 games so far in 2021-22, and Moffett says they should not be "sacrosanct" as WRU-owned.

Moffett said: "My three teams would be Llanelli, Swansea and Cardiff, but I'll put a caveat on that - I could live with Newport instead of Swansea because they are so close to Llanelli, only on the basis that they [Dragons] became privately-owned like the other clubs and that the WRU gave up ownership."

He added: "The WRU should not have a free pass on what they've done by taking over Newport [Dragons], they've kept the game relatively poor because of their poor financial management and something's going to break."

Moffett says the WRU is unable to afford four teams because "the only thing they seem to be able to do is just cut, cut and cut costs".

He also argues Wales "don't have enough players of sufficient quality" to sustain more than three teams.'

Well, his aim seems firmly on producing players for Wales, and a view point that the URC doesn't work for the Welsh public and never will so you may as well pump some money into 3 clubs.

by Jimmy Moz Tue 10 May 2022, 3:20 pm

Moffett said: "My three teams would be Llanelli, Swansea and Cardiff

While I have no major objection to calling a spade a spade, this should also mean that Llanelli, Swansea and Cardiff should not have 'B' teams in the Premiership

He says Welsh rugby is a global "laughing stock" and WRU-owned Dragons should be ditched unless bought out.

I think we all agree on that except the Newport faithful

We see this unedifying spectacle every year about, you know, Pontypridd should have a professional team

Well the main reason for Pontypridd not having a a professional team is money. But if they were to have the money or say someone bought Ponty or another a Welsh Premiership club...they I guess they would have every right to request to be a pro team if you are goin down the Llanelli, Swansea and Cardiff old school route

The United Rugby Championship (URC) is not working because fans do not travel in great numbers to away games.

The quality of the rugby and lack of intensity is the main issue

by No 7&1/2 Tue 10 May 2022, 3:27 pm

If his aim is to improve the national team though Jimmy surely it makes more sense to spread the 3 teams as wide as possible?

by Jimmy Moz Tue 10 May 2022, 3:34 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:If his aim is to improve the national team though Jimmy surely it makes more sense to spread the 3 teams as wide as possible?

So which 3 teams would you keep then?

by Brendan Tue 10 May 2022, 3:40 pm

Was listening on one of the Welsh pods (not sure which one) and they talked about some sizeable clubs not running a junior program but using their money to bring in players for the adult teams so avoiding the extra costs. Surely that can't be correct as it would seem to me being from a rural GAA village (boys and girls on the same team and 12 instead of 15 aside for the small villages like mine) that the numbers for underage was much larger and it was once you got to u18 or u21 you might combine with another club (mainly due to school exams and going away to college and mixed teams only allowed up to u16 so lost a few players).

Are there any rules around paying players outside the Premership in Wales as that would seem poor practice to me of paying someone in a much lower duvisiin. Or is it a case like GAA over here where certain clubs players work at certain companies that give them very flexible hours and possibly over inflated wages for their job. Or the classic works at the club as a barman.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 10 May 2022, 3:42 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:If his aim is to improve the national team though Jimmy surely it makes more sense to spread the 3 teams as wide as possible?
So which 3 teams would you keep then?

Pick 3 areas on the map that aren't near each other and go with it. If the aim is to provide the stepping stone to internationals you surely want to cover as many populations as possible and make it as easy for the young players to get to training etc. Seems a bit pointless having sides next to each other making it more difficult and more costly for youngsters. The aim in this proposal is not to tick a box for any supporters or increase the competitiveness of the teams so that seems logical.

by Brendan Tue 10 May 2022, 4:14 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:Moffett said: "My three teams would be Llanelli, Swansea and Cardiff

While I have no major objection to calling a spade a spade, this should also mean that Llanelli, Swansea and Cardiff should not have 'B' teams in the Premiership

He says Welsh rugby is a global "laughing stock" and WRU-owned Dragons should be ditched unless bought out.

I think we all agree on that except the Newport faithful

We see this unedifying spectacle every year about, you know, Pontypridd should have a professional team

Well the main reason for Pontypridd not having a a professional team is money. But if they were to have the money or say someone bought Ponty or another a Welsh Premiership club...they I guess they would have every right to request to be a pro team if you are goin down the Llanelli, Swansea and Cardiff old school route

The United Rugby Championship (URC) is not working because fans do not travel in great numbers to away games.

The quality of the rugby and lack of intensity is the main issue

Would Welsh fans be up for doing a partnership with the SRU or IRFU (It may not have the money) to fund the fourth team. I doubt most fans would care if half the Dragons team was Scottish or Irish if they won half their games.

The IRFU have too many players and not enough places and to a lessor extent Scotland Maybe the IRFU/SRU could fund some of the players (say 20-30% of wages) and keep them in "Their System".

Gives the fourth Welsh team better players and allows the SRU/IRFU save costs on younger players who need more game time. I think the SRU have two Glasgow wingers in the Super 6 they might have been happy to loan to Dragons under a deal like that.

You would figure that the SRU would feel they would like to give a few of their players more opportunity rather than lose them to other clubs.

Getting rid of the 4th team seem to be irreversible but there doesn't seem to be any outside the box thinking from the powers that be. If SRU and IRFU gave 1m each (Just throwing out numbers) and dragons got players like Leinster 3rds Scottish equivalent) would that be acceptable. If they go to 3 teams less Welsh players are getting chances anyway so not like Welsh players would be stopped progressing.

As an example someone like Harry Byrne doing a year in Wales next year getting good playing time to come back and try usurp his brother on Sexton's retirement. Probably same would apply to Crowley at Munster who the IRFU are paying but may let go for a year and save half the cost as he is clearly 3rd choice and not getting massive game time as he would as Dragons back up 10.

Not sure the URC doesn't fit the Welsh needs and not sure how no away support should affect club support. It's not like people go support their team because those mean away fans are there. I always find it funny when people bring up things like the league isn't phyisical enough or a high enough standard. Only Leinster can say that as they rarely lose. As a Munster Fan I know Munster will be as physical and intense as the opposition will melt under. If they had to go up a level in the URC that would be great but the opposition doesn't require it. If teams can't live with the physical and intense side of the game what would happen if Edinburgh brought their standard v Sarries or Glasgow at home v Exeter to Wales or the three Irish will against Toulouse. If teams want the league to be better maybe start with what you bring to the pitch as we have seen Ospreys start to do again and have turned over all 3 big Irish teams in the last two years.

by RugbyFan100 Tue 10 May 2022, 4:32 pm

Brendan wrote:

Would Welsh fans be up for doing a partnership with the SRU or IRFU (It may not have the money) to fund the fourth team. I doubt most fans would care if half the Dragons team was Scottish or Irish if they won half their games.

That truly is special.

The IRFU have too many players and not enough places and to a lessor extent Scotland Maybe the IRFU/SRU could fund some of the players (say 20-30% of wages) and keep them in "Their System".

Gives the fourth Welsh team better players and allows the SRU/IRFU save costs on younger players who need more game time. I think the SRU have two Glasgow wingers in the Super 6 they might have been happy to loan to Dragons under a deal like that.

You would figure that the SRU would feel they would like to give a few of their players more opportunity rather than lose them to other clubs.

Getting rid of the 4th team seem to be irreversible but there doesn't seem to be any outside the box thinking from the powers that be. If SRU and IRFU gave 1m each (Just throwing out numbers) and dragons got players like Leinster 3rds Scottish equivalent) would that be acceptable. If they go to 3 teams less Welsh players are getting chances anyway so not like Welsh players would be stopped progressing.

As an example someone like Harry Byrne doing a year in Wales next year getting good playing time to come back and try usurp his brother on Sexton's retirement. Probably same would apply to Crowley at Munster who the IRFU are paying but may let go for a year and save half the cost as he is clearly 3rd choice and not getting massive game time as he would as Dragons back up 10.

by geoff999rugby Tue 10 May 2022, 4:50 pm

Brendan that is bonkers.

So Ulster have reduced their wage bill by between about £1 million pounds in the last year and now you want to give £1 million to the Welsh !
Leinster may have too many players Ulsters don't - we started last year with 38 professionals of whom 11 were front row players.
Thats 27 players for 12 positions - given internationals and injuries there is very little fat on the bone.

Why base a Scottish/Irish team in Wales.
Here's an idea base such a team in..lets see... Scotland and Ireland.
Neither Scotland or Ireland are here to prop up Welsh rugby.
Why would Welsh fans go to watch Scottish and Irish players play in Newport

As to intensity the Saffers have up the anti.
If Welsh supports want the intensity improved then it needs to come from the rugby played by Welsh teams.

You need to go and have a lie down your talking gibberish

by Guest Tue 10 May 2022, 5:11 pm

Where have the Welsh said the intensity is not high enough?! Haven’t heard that myself.

For me, a drop to 3 teams is very short sighted. They say we can’t afford 4. I don’t think we can afford to drop to 3. The WRU would lose TV money, competition money, they’d be in trouble for not fulling their obligations in terms of entrants into the tournaments (possibly fines for this?). You’ve for player contracts to buy out. You’ve got the Ospreys with a 50 year lease on the stadium they use. Scrap them and what happens with that?! Dragons are the obvious ones for scrapping, for sure. But I can’t see funding to the other 3 increasing based on the above. Plus, more Welsh internationals spread across 3 instead of 4 teams…….there’s going to be even more holes in the regional squads when all of those are away with Wales. At any squad camp or tournament the 3 remaining regions could have 12 or 13 players missing. How’s that going to make them more competitive in the league? The only way would be to have even more expensive squads with greater depth, and who’s going to foot the bill for that?

I’ll say it again, but cutting to 3 will make things worse in no time at all, IMO.

by Brendan Tue 10 May 2022, 6:01 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:

Would Welsh fans be up for doing a partnership with the SRU or IRFU (It may not have the money) to fund the fourth team. I doubt most fans would care if half the Dragons team was Scottish or Irish if they won half their games.

That truly is special.

The IRFU have too many players and not enough places and to a lessor extent Scotland Maybe the IRFU/SRU could fund some of the players (say 20-30% of wages) and keep them in "Their System".

Gives the fourth Welsh team better players and allows the SRU/IRFU save costs on younger players who need more game time. I think the SRU have two Glasgow wingers in the Super 6 they might have been happy to loan to Dragons under a deal like that.

You would figure that the SRU would feel they would like to give a few of their players more opportunity rather than lose them to other clubs.

Getting rid of the 4th team seem to be irreversible but there doesn't seem to be any outside the box thinking from the powers that be. If SRU and IRFU gave 1m each (Just throwing out numbers) and dragons got players like Leinster 3rds Scottish equivalent) would that be acceptable. If they go to 3 teams less Welsh players are getting chances anyway so not like Welsh players would be stopped progressing.

As an example someone like Harry Byrne doing a year in Wales next year getting good playing time to come back and try usurp his brother on Sexton's retirement. Probably same would apply to Crowley at Munster who the IRFU are paying but may let go for a year and save half the cost as he is clearly 3rd choice and not getting massive game time as he would as Dragons back up 10.

Glad I could lighten your day but you would still get to keep 4 teams for when things get better, rather than looking at it after Covid years and make a rash choice (See NZRU and SR)

by Brendan Tue 10 May 2022, 6:09 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Brendan that is bonkers.

So Ulster have reduced their wage bill by between about £1 million pounds in the last year and now you want to give £1 million to the Welsh !
Leinster may have too many players Ulsters don't - we started last year with 38 professionals of whom 11 were front row players.
Thats 27 players for 12 positions - given internationals and injuries there is very little fat on the bone.

Why base a Scottish/Irish team in Wales.
Here's an idea base such a team in..lets see... Scotland and Ireland.
Neither Scotland or Ireland are here to prop up Welsh rugby.
Why would Welsh fans go to watch Scottish and Irish players play in Newport

As to intensity the Saffers have up the anti.
If Welsh supports want the intensity improved then it needs to come from the rugby played by Welsh teams.

You need to go and have a lie down your talking gibberish

I did say that I didn't know if the IRFU could afford it, the SRU would. I'm not talking about loads of players but if each union sent a few it would be stronger than what the Dragon currently have. Even 5 players and IRFU/SRU pay 40k per player and the Region makes up the difference it's not that much.

I know IRFU have made cuts and maybe it would be a way to help keep players on board.

Like all fans Dragons fans want to see winning teams and top topping up the Current players with some better fringe won't cause fan walk outs.

Anyway we won't need to worry as it doesn't benefit the Welsh Prem so the WRU wouldn't be allowed

Agree regarding SA teams and think Munster benefited v Toulouse as a result of the players that went to SA

by RugbyFan100 Tue 10 May 2022, 6:22 pm

The Oracle wrote:Where have the Welsh said the intensity is not high enough?! Haven’t heard that myself.

For me, a drop to 3 teams is very short sighted. They say we can’t afford 4. I don’t think we can afford to drop to 3. The WRU would lose TV money, competition money, they’d be in trouble for not fulling their obligations in terms of entrants into the tournaments (possibly fines for this?). You’ve for player contracts to buy out. You’ve got the Ospreys with a 50 year lease on the stadium they use. Scrap them and what happens with that?! Dragons are the obvious ones for scrapping, for sure. But I can’t see funding to the other 3 increasing based on the above. Plus, more Welsh internationals spread across 3 instead of 4 teams…….there’s going to be even more holes in the regional squads when all of those are away with Wales. At any squad camp or tournament the 3 remaining regions could have 12 or 13 players missing. How’s that going to make them more competitive in the league? The only way would be to have even more expensive squads with greater depth, and who’s going to foot the bill for that?

I’ll say it again, but cutting to 3 will make things worse in no time at all, IMO.

I'm pretty sure the WRU would have to pay back 25% of the CVC money it earned (sorry, the regions earned but didn't see a penny of) via the URC too.

by Brendan Tue 10 May 2022, 6:26 pm

The Oracle wrote:Where have the Welsh said the intensity is not high enough?! Haven’t heard that myself.

For me, a drop to 3 teams is very short sighted. They say we can’t afford 4. I don’t think we can afford to drop to 3. The WRU would lose TV money, competition money, they’d be in trouble for not fulling their obligations in terms of entrants into the tournaments (possibly fines for this?). You’ve for player contracts to buy out. You’ve got the Ospreys with a 50 year lease on the stadium they use. Scrap them and what happens with that?! Dragons are the obvious ones for scrapping, for sure. But I can’t see funding to the other 3 increasing based on the above. Plus, more Welsh internationals spread across 3 instead of 4 teams…….there’s going to be even more holes in the regional squads when all of those are away with Wales. At any squad camp or tournament the 3 remaining regions could have 12 or 13 players missing. How’s that going to make them more competitive in the league? The only way would be to have even more expensive squads with greater depth, and who’s going to foot the bill for that?

I’ll say it again, but cutting to 3 will make things worse in no time at all, IMO.

Intensity was in regards to the post I quoted that talked about why the URC was not fit for purpose.

If it is a case of not affording a 4th team I just feel like there are a load ways to cut costs over a few years without losing the team. Getting in players from other Unions who can part pay the wages for releases etc.

I only used SRU/IRFU as more practical.
Argentina would love to have control over a few players. They looked at placing a team in Spain. Would they fund they take on a lease of say 4-8 years while WRU finances improved. If things didn't improve WRU could sell the spot to them.. giving up a team and paying penalties and giving away things for free seems madness as if the WRU only put out 3 teams the URC won't have a hard time selling the extra spot.

Australia are struggling financially could the WRU and RA do a deal where RA players who have no games for half a year because of SR lenght, unless internationals could play in Wales to cover Welsh internationals rest periods. Basically give Welsh test players June to November off rather than weeks all over the season. You would be talking Jack Demspey type players to get them going and then the internationals come back rearing to go. Similar thing with Japan.

Maybe it's too out there of an idea but plenty people looking for solutions to their problems that WRU should be talking to instead of trying to keep it all in house and making bad choices.

by RugbyFan100 Tue 10 May 2022, 6:32 pm

Please stop.

by Jimmy Moz Wed 11 May 2022, 11:11 am

This is all currently being discussed on Jason Mohammad BBC Radio Wales. Some usual bat mad crazy ideas. The East Wales and West Wales option I support has been mentioned. Some of the current "regional" supporters saying that they would never support another team now. Won't be seeing anything of Dragons faithful down at the Arms Park anytime soon then if they are the one to axed.

by mikey_dragon Wed 11 May 2022, 11:21 am

I was waiting for Moffett to pop up. He always does and says that he has a new plan to save Welsh Rugby. Wasn't his last idea franchises, which re-new or disband every 10 years? He literally disappeared after that. Now he's back running the 3-team thing.

by mikey_dragon Wed 11 May 2022, 11:23 am

Jimmy Moz wrote:This is all currently being discussed on Jason Mohammad BBC Radio Wales. Some usual bat mad crazy ideas. The East Wales and West Wales option I support has been mentioned. Some of the current "regional" supporters saying that they would never support another team now. Won't be seeing anything of Dragons faithful down at the Arms Park anytime soon then if they are the one to axed.

Why, are they getting axed soon? If so, how soon?

by Jimmy Moz Wed 11 May 2022, 11:30 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Jimmy Moz wrote:This is all currently being discussed on Jason Mohammad BBC Radio Wales. Some usual bat mad crazy ideas. The East Wales and West Wales option I support has been mentioned. Some of the current "regional" supporters saying that they would never support another team now. Won't be seeing anything of Dragons faithful down at the Arms Park anytime soon then if they are the one to axed.

Why, are they getting axed soon? If so, how soon?

I used the word IF

Look it up and then I won't need to explain to you.

by mikey_dragon Wed 11 May 2022, 11:31 am

Jimmy Moz wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Jimmy Moz wrote:This is all currently being discussed on Jason Mohammad BBC Radio Wales. Some usual bat mad crazy ideas. The East Wales and West Wales option I support has been mentioned. Some of the current "regional" supporters saying that they would never support another team now. Won't be seeing anything of Dragons faithful down at the Arms Park anytime soon then if they are the one to axed.

Why, are they getting axed soon? If so, how soon?
I used the word IF

Look it up and then I won't need to expain to you.

You also said soon, so how soon? Very Happy

I see you're not answering questions as always. It's as if you type rubbish and expect people not to shoot you down.

by **RiscaGame** Wed 11 May 2022, 11:34 am

Let's leave it there lads. Getting a bit excitable already and there's no need for petty bickering over supposition.

by RugbyFan100 Wed 11 May 2022, 11:38 am

Jimmy Moz wrote: The East Wales and West Wales option I support has been mentioned. Some of the current "regional" supporters saying that they would never support another team now.

I'm a season ticket holder at a region. I wouldn't support a team based at the stadium called 'West Wales', even if they played in the same colours they do now. You wouldn't expect a Liverpool or Man Utd fan to just accept their side being renamed 'North West FC'.

I can't speak for all season ticket holders, but I expect the amount of support for a completely new, rebranded team to be nowhere near what they are now. Some people have long standing traditional family ties to the current teams, even though some people like to claim they were only formed in 2003. You can't expect Pontypridd fans to support Cardiff. You can't expect Cardiff fans to support East Wales RFC.

by Jimmy Moz Wed 11 May 2022, 11:39 am

RiscaGame wrote:Let's leave it there lads. Getting a bit excitable already and there's no need for petty bickering over supposition.

I agree with you. Everything is hypothetical at the moment hence I am not giving times or dates or exact way situations are going to play out. It's just a forum for discussion.

To be honest I would put this question to any regional supporter about whether they would support the nearest pro team if their team was axed. Just for discussion that's all. No right or wrong answer.

by Jimmy Moz Wed 11 May 2022, 11:58 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm a season ticket holder at a region. I wouldn't support a team based at the stadium called 'West Wales', even if they played in the same colours they do now. You wouldn't expect a Liverpool or Man Utd fan to just accept their side being renamed 'North West FC'.

Agreed but Liverpool and Man Utd are global world wide brands watched by 50-75K people every home game. The Welsh rugby clubs are not. I understand your point but maybe not a good comparison.

RugbyFan100 wrote:I can't speak for all season ticket holders, but I expect the amount of support for a completely new, rebranded team to be nowhere near what they are now. Some people have long standing traditional family ties to the current teams, even though some people like to claim they were only formed in 2003. You can't expect Pontypridd fans to support Cardiff. You can't expect Cardiff fans to support East Wales RFC.

Also agree. But I think East Wales RFC would get a whole new set of fans (at least in time). I would go for different names anyway other that East and West Wales. Not sure what but something far away from any history in Welsh rugby.

by RugbyFan100 Wed 11 May 2022, 12:00 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I'm a season ticket holder at a region. I wouldn't support a team based at the stadium called 'West Wales', even if they played in the same colours they do now. You wouldn't expect a Liverpool or Man Utd fan to just accept their side being renamed 'North West FC'.
Agreed but Liverpool and Man Utd are global world wide brands watched by 50-70K people every home game. The Welsh rugby clubs are not

RugbyFan100 wrote:I can't speak for all season ticket holders, but I expect the amount of support for a completely new, rebranded team to be nowhere near what they are now. Some people have long standing traditional family ties to the current teams, even though some people like to claim they were only formed in 2003. You can't expect Pontypridd fans to support Cardiff. You can't expect Cardiff fans to support East Wales RFC.
Also agree. But I think East Wales RFC would get a whole new set of fans (at least in time). I would go for different names anyway other that East and West Wales. Not sure what but something far away from any history in Welsh rugby.

There has been first class rugby played in Llanelli for 150 years. They've been known as the Scarlets for that duration.

Who would watch a team called something else in place of them?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 11 May 2022, 12:07 pm

The proposal here though from Moffett is not about getting bums on seats for these teams. His primary outcome is to produce international players. So realistically it doesn't matter if people spit the dummy and don't turn up.

by Jimmy Moz Wed 11 May 2022, 12:08 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:Who would watch a team called something else in place of them?

Well I would assume people who want to watch pro rugby. This is the 21st Century and Welsh rugby is in disarray. 150 years of history and a long standing name is not going to move things forward sorry.

by RugbyFan100 Wed 11 May 2022, 12:31 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Who would watch a team called something else in place of them?
Well I would assume people who want to watch pro rugby. This is the 21st Century and Welsh rugby is in disarray. 150 years of history and a long standing name is not going to move things forward sorry.

They should poll the approx 10,000 - 12,000 season ticket holders of the current 4 regions and ask them if they'd still buy a season ticket to a new pro team if their current team is shut down.

That's an awful lot of season ticket holders to replace if they are not interested.

by Jimmy Moz Wed 11 May 2022, 12:36 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:That's an awful lot of season ticket holders to replace if they are not interested.

Same thing happened back in 2003 though. That was classed as a necessary sacrifice for the benefit of Welsh rugby. 20 years on are the WRU really going to stagnate just to appease one team's supporters?

by RugbyFan100 Wed 11 May 2022, 12:39 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:That's an awful lot of season ticket holders to replace if they are not interested.
Same thing happened back in 2003 though. That was classed as a necessary sacrifice for the benefit of Welsh rugby. 20 years on are the WRU really going to stagnate just to appease one team's supporters?

The WRU can't shut independent businesses down, or make them change their trading name. So I guess so.

Crowds are way up now compared to pre-regional levels by the way.

by Jimmy Moz Wed 11 May 2022, 12:54 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Jimmy Moz wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:That's an awful lot of season ticket holders to replace if they are not interested.
Same thing happened back in 2003 though. That was classed as a necessary sacrifice for the benefit of Welsh rugby. 20 years on are the WRU really going to stagnate just to appease one team's supporters?

The WRU can't shut independent businesses down, or make them change their trading name. So I guess so.

Crowds are way up now compared to pre-regional levels by the way.

True. Which makes it look like the Dragons would be the axed team IF the WRU chose that option. Be a good Cardiff Rugby side mind. But would they be able to work with the Gwent clubs.

by RugbyFan100 Wed 11 May 2022, 1:06 pm

Can't see it happening. It's just an excuse for the CEO of Welsh rugby to say :

"This is why we are in for some very lean years in the next decade....we were advised to cut down to 3 teams, but nobody was prepared to look at the good of the game and make the tough choices"

No self reflection. No inward looking analysis on why the CVC £50m was spent on buildings and not pro rugby. No proper recruitment. No resignations. No answers on why Amanda Blanc resigned. No investigation into the appalling burden of debt that was forced on the 4 pro clubs during covid.

But at least the WRU are conducting a thorough investigation into a photo of some white power on one of their trophies. That's the important thing.

by Guest Wed 11 May 2022, 1:08 pm

Glasgow and Edinburgh - how come they haven’t gone for East and West Scotland? Why keep the place names in? Doesn’t that disenfranchise the rest of Scotland? They are SRU owned/controlled too as far as I know, so they would have the power to include the whole of Scotland in their branding should they wish. Any ideas why they don’t?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 11 May 2022, 1:10 pm

Isn't it the WRU who are in charge of the teas who participate in the URC? They would then have the choice of removing any team they wanted.

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