Transgender - world Rugby set to introduce 'rugby-specific' policy - Part 2

by TightHEAD Thu 27 Feb 2020, 4:05 pm

World Rugby set to introduce 'rugby-specific' transgender policy separate from IOC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51662872

Good news and common sense.

Part 1 was closed down, good to see 606v2 is ahead of the game in raising these points!

by tigertattie Fri 28 Feb 2020, 1:06 pm

Of course there needs to be a rugby specific policy.

It's a deeply emotive and sensitive subject though so hopegully people can debate it without resorting to insults and poor behavious.

by Guest Sun 01 Mar 2020, 9:13 pm

I’ve always agreed that for player safety, etc. rugby needed to treat this subject differently and introduce its own transgender policy. So I agree with the proposals. However, yesterday I read a good point someone raised (Twitter I think) and it got me thinking. They basically asked what the issue is with a transgender player in the women’s game when in the men’s game you can have someone like Eben Etzebeth playing against someone like Faf De Klerk? The point was that, actually, rugby is perhaps the one sport where we already have huge mismatches in size, strength, power, etc so perhaps it is the one sport where maybe we can integrate transgender players. Not sure I agree, but food for thought.

by TightHEAD Mon 02 Mar 2020, 11:13 am

Huge mismatches are part of our game that is very true and part of the appear for the larger and smaller players who like the challenge, but there is a reason we have age grade rugby and don't allow U15s to batter U10s on a Sunday morning.

by Guest Mon 02 Mar 2020, 12:01 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Huge mismatches are part of our game that is very true and part of the appear for the larger and smaller players who like the challenge, but there is a reason we have age grade rugby and don't allow U15s to batter U10s on a Sunday morning.

Good point, TightHEAD. Good point indeed.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 06 Mar 2020, 10:16 am

Though some places (especially NZ) are talking about weight banding age group rugby as there are such disparities in size.

by Guest Sat 07 Mar 2020, 10:14 pm

Hmmm. So perhaps the argument goes back to size, and maybe gender is then negated?

by SecretFly Sun 08 Mar 2020, 2:21 pm

The Oracle wrote:Hmmm. So perhaps the argument goes back to size,

Stop always boasting, Oracle. Be serious.

by Old Man Tue 10 Mar 2020, 8:39 am

The question for me is how much stronger and physical is a male on average vs a female?

Is that not the crux of the issue?

Compare a man that weighs 90kg vs a female that weighs 90kg, the physical strength is where the disparity is, and by how much?

by TightHEAD Tue 21 Jul 2020, 9:11 am

Rugby leading the way.........

World Rugby could ban transgender athletes from playing women's rugby because of safety concerns.

It would be the first international sports federation to prohibit transgender women from competing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/53476972

by Exiledinborders Fri 24 Jul 2020, 2:03 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
It would be the first international sports federation to prohibit transgender women from competing.[/i]

Actually it wouldn’t. They will as they always have been able to play along with others of the same sex (as opposed to gender).

by Brendan Tue 28 Jul 2020, 9:10 am

There seems to be a pushback in sport against having players/athletes who have gone through male puberty who then choose to identify as a woman because these transgendered athletes are starting dominating woman's sports at younger levels.

In soccer women's international teams are about the same standard as under 16 boys as backed up by results as they are simillar size, but even at that age they are stronger so imagine what a 22 year old would do. I knew a woman who was on the fringes of the Munster squad and I would have been comfortable stronger and faster and I wouldn't get near any of the rugby schools squad in Munster.

While there are disparities in size happening, having any of the players playing in the any semi-professional mens level would be head and shoulders above any current women playing rugby. The reasons are size, strenght, standard of rugby at a young age.

Sports either want a place where female people can play sports against their peers or we don't care about female sport.

I think we will see three forms of rugby, mens, womens and other. Or we just have one form and the best get on.

The other issue is what is transgender in terms of sport as there is alot of ambiguity
1. Identify as the opposite gender to birth but have taken no other actions
2. Taking hormones
3. Undergone surgery.

If a woman was to take testostone because they feel like a man for two years and then go back to being a woman should they be allowed to start straight back into womens sport on the day they choose to go back.

by the-goon Wed 29 Jul 2020, 9:11 am

Men shouldn't play women's rugby, it's really simple.
And you can't change your sex, you are one or the other from birth to death as determined by your bioolgy.

Reality doesn't care about your feelings.

But on the otherhand, watching men put on a wig and dominate the womens game is entertainment in it's own way. It will destroy women's sport, but maybe new women's sporting bodies will be setup that don't conform to the science denying ideology of the radical intersectional left. And we will be better off for it.

by TightHEAD Wed 29 Jul 2020, 4:15 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
It would be the first international sports federation to prohibit transgender women from competing.[/i]

Actually it wouldn’t. They will as they always have been able to play along with others of the same sex (as opposed to gender).

You are wrong.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 29 Jul 2020, 4:24 pm

the-goon wrote:Men shouldn't play women's rugby, it's really simple.
And you can't change your sex, you are one or the other from birth to death as determined by your bioolgy.

https://isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex/

by **LondonTiger** Wed 29 Jul 2020, 4:24 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
It would be the first international sports federation to prohibit transgender women from competing.[/i]

Actually it wouldn’t. They will as they always have been able to play along with others of the same sex (as opposed to gender).

You are wrong.

Are there currently rules prohibiting Trans-gender women playing against men?

by the-goon Thu 30 Jul 2020, 4:55 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
the-goon wrote:Men shouldn't play women's rugby, it's really simple.
And you can't change your sex, you are one or the other from birth to death as determined by your bioolgy.

https://isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex/

Intersex is a general term used for a variety of conditions....

It's the first line, intersex conditions are medical conditions caused by genetic defects. The process of creating a human is messy and complicated, and sometimes nature gets it wrong. Still only 2 genders/sexes.

Doesnt mean these ppl are less worthy, so don't strawman me here.

But this transgender stuff isn't about these ppl, it's about ppl who are healthy men/women FEELING like they are the opposite gender or something made up, and the rest of society have change to accomodate their delusion.

But as I said, I don't really care. This won't affect the men's game, and I don't care about woman's sport. Watching 6"4 men smashing women aside will be quite funny though.

by Exiledinborders Tue 04 Aug 2020, 4:16 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
It would be the first international sports federation to prohibit transgender women from competing.[/i]

Actually it wouldn’t. They will as they always have been able to play along with others of the same sex (as opposed to gender).

You are wrong.

Why?

A transgender woman (i.e. genetically male)
could play men’s ruby as they always could. A transgender man (i.e. genetically female)
could play women’s ruby as they always could.

Whether they wish to is a different matter.

by quinsforever Sat 22 Aug 2020, 10:43 pm

don't think a trans man can play womens rugby as they would fall foul of the doping given all the hormone treatments they tend to be taking (testosterone etc)

and a trans woman should never be allowed to play womens rugby given the competitive advantages due to a near full developmental life as a man with all the attendant hormonal and steroidal physical benefits

this is a huge issue in the US currently, especially in the area of competitive college sports where a recent court decision made it illegal not to accept trans women into women's college sports scholarship programmes. beggars belief imo. it's just cheating.

by Mr Fishpaste Tue 25 Aug 2020, 9:01 am

Sports that are segregated are segregated according to biological sex and not according to gender identity. Hence, it doesn't matter how you identify, what matters is what your biological sex is. Women playing rugby against biological men will end in serious injury, if not death.

by quinsforever Fri 09 Oct 2020, 10:47 pm

rugby players who used to be men have been banned from elite women's rugby

common sense prevailed

i can hear the snowflakes bleating already

by TightHEAD Sat 10 Oct 2020, 2:00 pm

quinsforever wrote:rugby players who used to be men have been banned from elite women's rugby

common sense prevailed

i can hear the snowflakes bleating already

They are.......
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54491179

by Soul Requiem Sat 10 Oct 2020, 2:21 pm

I don't really understand how any group or person can criticize this decision, the wellbeing of female players is paramount.

by quinsforever Sat 10 Oct 2020, 9:29 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I don't really understand how any group or person can criticize this decision, the wellbeing of female players is paramount.

i see what you did there and i agree Wink

by funnyExiledScot Mon 12 Oct 2020, 5:02 pm

I agree with this decision, and I think it's the correct one for sport in general.

by lostinwales Tue 13 Oct 2020, 10:15 am

At least this prevents the 'you can play international rugby but we have to cut your balls off first' conversation from ever happening. Run

by **LondonTiger** Thu 15 Oct 2020, 11:29 am

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/14/rfu-clears-trans-women-to-play-womens-rugby-at-all-levels-in-england

Transgender women will still be allowed to play women’s rugby at all non-international levels of the game in England for the foreseeable future, the Guardian can reveal, after the Rugby Football Union decided that more evidence was needed before implementing any ban.

The RFU’s position is sharply at odds with World Rugby, which last week ruled that trans women could no longer play international women’s rugby after a major review of the latest science concluded that the risk of “significant injury” was “too great”.

World Rugby’s new transgender guidelines do, however, allow national unions to exercise “flexibility” in determining their transgender rules. The RFU believes that more work is needed to assess the science, as well as investigating whether there are safe ways to allow trans women to keep playing the sport they love, rather than ban them from the domestic game. This position, it is understood, is supported by a number of other countries, including the US and Canada.

The RFU told the Guardian that while it welcomed World Rugby’s work on this “complex subject which invokes many strong opinions” the organisation did not support all the global governing body’s conclusions.

“The RFU does not currently plan to adopt World Rugby transgender guidelines as it believes further scientific evidence is required alongside detailed consideration of less restrictive measures in relation to the eligibility of transgender players,” it added.

“We will assess the current evidence alongside safety concerns that have been raised. The RFU will also undertake further consultation with players in the women’s game to understand their views. The RFU is committed to LGBTQ+ inclusion as well as safety and fairness across all levels of the game.”

The RFU’s decision means that trans women can continue playing women’s club rugby in England for now, provided their concentration of testosterone in serum has been less than 5 nmol/L continuously for at least 12 months. However, they are no longer eligible for selection for the Olympics or the Six Nations, competitions governed by World Rugby rules.

Last week World Rugby became the first international sports body to ban trans women from the women’s game after an eight-month review. It concluded that it was not possible to balance inclusivity with safety and fairness given that biological males, whose puberty and development is influenced by androgens/testosterone, are “stronger by 25% to 50%, are 30% more powerful, 40% heavier, and about 15% faster than biological females.”

Reacting to the RFU decision World Rugby said: “The updated guidance … recognises that the available evidence in relation to testosterone suppression does not currently support trans women playing full contact international rugby on safety grounds.

“While the guideline applies to all World Rugby tournaments at the international level, the respective national unions with jurisdiction at domestic level will be able to exercise flexibility in their application based on national requirements.”

The RFU’s decision was greeted with disappointment by the women’s rights group Fair Play for Women. “Everyone knows that in a rough sport like rugby it is dangerous for males to play against females,” said the campaigning group’s Nicola Williams. “And if it’s not safe, it can never be fair either. The science is clear. Growing up male will give transgender athletes a lifelong edge that simply cannot be fully reversed by a period of testosterone suppression.

“Sport must be inclusive of everyone, but the sports categories can’t be. The category for the female sex was invented so women and girls could be included in sport. World Rugby has put the safety of its professional female players first. If the RFU don’t do the same then thousands of amateur players will be left asking why they don’t deserve the same protections.”

by **LondonTiger** Thu 15 Oct 2020, 11:31 am

Please keep any discussions polite.

I must say I like way Nicola Williams has worded that last section.

by Old Man Thu 15 Oct 2020, 11:40 am

It is simple, take ten transgender rugby players and 10 female players, take them to a gym and see the difference, then let them tackle a bag and measure the impact, then let them run a 100 meter sprint to see the difference in speed.

In my opinion it is unfair to pit women athletes against men, it isn’t a fair contest.

At top level the difference between winning and losing is marginal, male dna in a contact sport is more than marginally stronger, faster etc.

by TJ Fri 16 Oct 2020, 5:24 pm

The real problem with this if a cis woman is injured by a transgender woman the the RFU would have no defense to a liability claim IMO as they know that this is more likely

by **profitius** Tue 20 Oct 2020, 2:29 pm

Women have the physicality of 12 or 13 year old boys. Putting them in with transgender people is a potential health hazard.

by Duty281 Fri 29 Jul 2022, 6:02 pm

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12040/12661168/rugby-football-union-and-rugby-football-league-ban-transgender-women-playing-female-rugby

Transgender women will be banned from playing female rugby union in this country, after a vote by the RFU passed by 33-26.

This seems to me to be an obvious decision, based on the scientific evidence around safety (most important) and competitiveness. Can anyone who disagrees with this ruling explain why, as many seem to be up in arms about it?

by No 7&1/2 Sat 30 Jul 2022, 10:27 am

Just look up any of the threads squidge has helped promote. I'll now ignore the normal skip fire theses become.

by BamBam Sun 31 Jul 2022, 4:29 pm

The Tory / UKIP types have decided to dog whistle this as the next battleground for the culture war

It’s a complex issue, my general view is that women’s rugby clubs/players should make the decision and most that I’ve seen have supported inclusivity.

by dummy_half Fri 05 Aug 2022, 3:44 pm

Read elsewhere that this affects 8 players in England, a few of them playing at the top club level. Some personal opinions:
1 - Sport should be open to all, however the capability to participate in top level competitive sport and/or make a living out of it is not a right but should be on individual merit.
2 - A greater standard of care is needed in contact and collision sports to ensure safety of female players
3 - A trans woman who has gone through puberty as a male will on average have body morphology advantages (height, bone density etc) compared with an average cis woman. Playing around with testosterone suppression will only take you so far in redressing this.
4 - However, a trans woman that transitioned as a child before puberty* would not have these advantages, and probably should be allowed to participate alongside cis women in rugby.

So, in summary I think an absolute blanket ban is probably a little too far, but there should be a presumption, at this stage on the grounds of player safety, that trans women should only participate in men's rugby unless they can demonstrate transition beginning prior to puberty.

* This to me raises philosophical and psychological questions of how someone would know before puberty and the associates sexual maturity that they were trans sexual. Perhaps just difficult for me to understand as a middle aged straight man... Hell, when I went to University, it was only the LGB society, not LGBTQIA2S+. The times, they are a-changing...

by geoff999rugby Thu 11 Aug 2022, 7:07 pm

BamBam wrote:The Tory / UKIP types have decided to dog whistle this as the next battleground for the culture war

It’s a complex issue, my general view is that women’s rugby clubs/players should make the decision and most that I’ve seen have supported inclusivity.

Not my experience talking to women playing rugby.
This is not a political issue - your reference to Tory/UKIP types is a red herring

by LeinsterFan4life Sun 30 Jul 2023, 6:57 pm

BamBam wrote:The Tory / UKIP types have decided to dog whistle this as the next battleground for the culture war

It’s a complex issue, my general view is that women’s rugby clubs/players should make the decision and most that I’ve seen have supported inclusivity.

What do you think of this?

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-female-rugby-players-complain-trans-opponent-hits-too-hard

Clown World.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 31 Jul 2023, 6:20 am

Glad to see the sun newspaper is the same everywhere.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 31 Jan 2024, 2:40 pm

Granted it's League but has anyone seen the clip going around twitter of a lass being trolled for playing in a womens match. Think they're just after page 3 girls playing sport.

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