The New Zealand All Blacks Thread - post RWC & 2020 season.

[Guest]

A thread to discuss all things NZ and All Blacks.

[Guest]

26 applicants have been invited to apply for the ABs job, all kiwis, so if they’re all currently head coaches I’d be surprised if we’ll over half of them arent currently in NH club rugby, unless they’ve asked co coaches like Tony Brown. If there’s that many be surprised if Pivac isn’t on the list. If it precludes those with contracts don’t think I could even name that many. Unless they’re scraping the barrel on names like Pat Lam.

Think Rueben Thorn is right though, they should now be including players opinions on what the new coaches qualities should be, rather than the old ways of you get so you get. Players that have served under various Super rugby coaches, and both overseas and AB coaches have a combined amount of knowledge on what works in a way that those selecting the new coach will have. An obvious bias to favouring one that is more likely to select you might be an issue but it would be interesting what a player vote would throw up. I’m thinking that would clearly favour Razor, even amongst non Crusaders players.

He’s the new generation, like Rassie, under 50 and pro players themselves.

[Guest]

Taylorman.

I have all ways had the thought that when a coach, like Hanson is set to leave the Abs, there is some one all ready line up for the job...Like when Graham Henry was in charge it was obvious the Steve Hanson would be taking over.

It their no obvious choice this time?

That’s because they won. Previously coach selections were tumultuous affairs with Hart vs Wyllie versus Mains in the 80s and 90s, then the awful divisive Mitchell era, each coach was replaced every losing World Cup coach except for Henry who just about divided the country to stay on. Hansen got in mainly due to the win in 2011, and Henry retiring, and was retained in 2015. Now they’ve lost the title, the obvious that was Foster, is now not so obvious. He didn’t win, he hasn’t coached overseas and his own record as head coach is poorer than others.tThere might be thinking that the further away from the Henry, Wayne Smith...Hansen and now Foster...the power thinking is now lost. Time for a new direction.

Henry is on the panel for selecting the new coach, as is an ex netball captain/ coach so they are going for not only knowledge in rugby but also in leadership and coaching in sport general. I just think they should include players opinions, even if only recently retired ones. Carter, McCaw, Conrad, Nonu, SBW, Brad Thorne, Cruden etc.

I’m thinking fave is now either Razor or Jamie Joseph. They may retain Foster or Grant Fox.

Tony Brown was approached by Razor who declined (the candidates need to put their case, including co coaches, forward at application so one wonders whether he wants OGara, knowing the risk that the panel may have already ruled out outsiders. Without Brown or OGara, Razors back coach options are looking slim.

Be interested to know who the 26 are. It’d be like the ABs to leave no stone unturned meaning anyone could have been invited...Pivac, Schmidt, Gats, Joseph, even Wayne Smith, regardless of contracts or what they’re stated intentions were.

[Taylorman]

Ha ha, what a clown

[Guest]

Who, Hansen?

Bit harsh.

[Guest]

Here is the list of 26 coaches all invited to apply for the postion.

They are all for the Head Coach position. No assistants. Only about 2 or 3 look like serious candidates.

Foster
Robertson
Joseph
Rennie
Mitchell
McKee
Haig
Jackson
Gatland
Plumtree
Boyd
Lam
Cotter
Mannix
Crawley
Mooar
Mauger
MacDonald
Thorn
Penney
Umaga
Hammett
Coventry
Deans
Smith
Blackadder

[Taylorman]

Here is the list of 26 coaches all invited to apply for the postion.

They are all for the Head Coach position. No assistants. Only about 2 or 3 look like serious candidates.

Foster
Robertson
Joseph
Rennie
Mitchell
McKee
Haig
Jackson
Gatland
Plumtree
Boyd
Lam
Cotter
Mannix
Crawley
Mooar
Mauger
MacDonald
Thorn
Penney
Umaga
Hammett
Coventry
Deans
Smith
Blackadder

Source?

[Guest]

I'm keeping that to myself, sorry.

[Guest]

RugbyPass with another excellent documentary.

[majesticimperialman]

Have the likes of Umaga, Macdonald ever coached any team's at all

Surely who ever take over the coach of the Abs, will be a well, known international coach all ready?

[Guest]

I think it's basically guaranteed to be Foster, maj, with Robertson being the only other serious contender. It depends how much they rate Gatland - Foster would do a job for 4 years and if Gatland succeeds, he'll have his shot in 4 years' time.

I can't help but feel the way Gatland was banging on about laying the foundations for Wales in the lead up and now aftermath of the RWC, he was making sure everyone in NZ would see it as a penclled in tick next to his name that he would be able to coach while keeping the ABs system still churning forward.

[Dirtydave]

It's strange how little Gatland is spoken about in regards to the NZ job...

Henry and hanson were both being touted as heavy favourites, despite doing far lesser jobs with wales!

I don't actually rate Hanson very highly, I think he's regularly made arrogant but silly selections. The NZ success is due to the kiwi junior development system, and they regularly beat teams despite a poor initial set up.

[Dirtydave]

Also, why is Schmidt not on the list?

[Guest]

My thoughts exactly, Dave. Very interesting that Schmidt isn't on the list.

[Guest]

Also I think the ABs do it differently. Less of a hierarchical approach to coaching. Grant Fox has a big say in selection, so if you have an issue with that, it's probably not solely Hansen's fault.

[Dirtydave]

I'd add, the RWC semi final line up will probably go down as the dullest selection in RWC history! Granted after he had played the entire tournament with the young inexperienced backline he had to persist, but it was obvious England were going to throw the kitchen sink at that backline, especially the 13 channel.

The only world beater in that backline was Barrett, and he was out of position, this backline was poor in the championship, and as soon as England put them under pressure they folded.

Crotty and Smith would've made a massive difference!

[Collapse2005]

Also, why is Schmidt not on the list?

because he didnt apply. He has said he wants to remain in Ireland with his family and take a break from coaching.

[Guest]

Seems a rare instance where a coach isn't bluffing in the media. He really is ruled out.

[SecretFly]

Schmidt isn't on the list because he stated already that he was taking time out from rugby.  I think he's recently intimated it to be about until Juneish next year.  Says he's had approaches but he and his family are sticking to his initial intention of taking time away.

So I presume New Zealand want the position filled before then.......

[RiscaGame]

Just change the title to the Miaow and Taylorman bicker thread and keep your guff to this please. At least then I know, it’s not a genuine discussion thread and it can be avoided. Seeing your squabbling on the site has been embarrassing, that grown adults could bicker like you pair do.

[Galted]

Who's likely to captain Wales once AWJ retires? Tipuric would be a possible choice but might not have too long left on the clock.

[Taylorman]

Also, why is Schmidt not on the list?

Schmidts ruled himself out according to NZ Rugby.

Mitchell will not be on there. He was a rubbish head coach, divisive and not what the ABs are all about.

He'll never coach in NZ again, hes burnt that bridge, and many others.

No way on earth he will have been invited.

[Taylorman]

Have the likes of Umaga, Macdonald ever coached any team's at all

Surely who ever take over the coach of the Abs, will be a well, known international coach all ready?

Umaga (was) and McDonald (now) have the Blues, McDonald was part of the Crusaders set up. Schmidts out cos he wants downtime, Gatlands out because of the Lions tour. Cant be AB coach with that sort of commitment hanging around.

Neither means they're not on the list (Maiows list is fake news as usual, from some web site thats guessing.) as these are the invites, who knows, Schmidt might have a change of heart.

With Foster now in the 'lost' group, and not being overly successful as a head coach in his own right, as well as no overseas experience I think a new guard is needed. Either the Joseph camp or Razor. Rennie probably the next on the list.

[BamBam]

Top class forum captaincy again

[Guest]

Thanks for your support, Officer Dribble.

[Pal Joey]

Thanks for setting up a fresh new All Blacks thread, miaow.

I think it deserves it's own big paddock.  Also gives us more breathing space on the other ones.  

[No 7&1/2]

Ha. No source. No idea.

[Gooseberry]

I'd add, the RWC semi final line up will probably go down as the dullest selection in RWC history! 

Stop derailing this discussion with talk of Wales

[LondonTiger]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/why-new-zealand-rugby-is-up-against-it-to-produce-a-world-cup-winning-all-black-side-in-2023

[Taylorman]

Bit of a long bow equating u20 non success with World Cup success, too many factors in between cast a lot of doubts on a single simple theory.

If there’s one thing we learned about this tournament is you need to have a game that can match more than one style and adapt. NZ chose very late in 2019 to adopt a single effort of trying to play extreme width and pace almost abandoning set piece and breakdown play and it cost them big time.

England chose to focus almost exclusively on beating the ABs from a tactical and prep point of view where they were spent and tactically and mentally unprepared for SA, who simply played whoever were in front of them.

Single theories based on what happened five or even eight years ago don’t win world cups, winning three very different knockout matches does.

[LondonTiger]

I think all they are saying is that the production line of players is not as strong as previously.

[Taylorman]

Yes obviously but tying it to world cup success is a tenuous link, ok to say one thing without drawing such a long conclusion. It’s NZs Super rugby success that creates All Blacks, the standard, continuity and consistency through the five sides over dozens of matches not the u20s success which is a three week tournament of one offs, a long bow. They didn’t lose this year because of some u20 result in the past is all I’m saying.

In saying that, it’s possibly a point due to the domination of previous under 20 sides but I also think it’s about other sides, like Wales, England, Ireland and SA putting more into their under 20 programmes. NZ didnt even play anyone before those tournaments back then, where the 6 N has a 6N of it going on from what I read here. So I just think it’s the same old story of others playing catch up...again.

Going forward NZ will want to come up with ways of getting back on track, getting back to the usual dominance it’s used to, and aptgats what tends to happen after a NZ loss. One step back, two steps forward. We’ve just gotta be smarter about how we approach the opposition. We need to focus on them as much as ourselves. I think Hansen forgot that a little.

When Jones says he’s been preparing for this for two years, you listen. As you said with Cane being dropped, Hansen threw another carrot in by removing a major breakdown specialist. Although it had positives it proved part of the downfall. We didn’t make tactical errors like that last time around. And as good as the 2015 side was, they were still beatable, semis and at times in the final. But tactically they were right up there.

[Guest]

Anyone who subscribes to the Telegraph willing and able to share this article?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/11/11/warren-gatland-turned-blacks-loyalty-lions/

[BamBam]

Not like the Welsh to expect others to pay for things they want to make use of

[LondonTiger]

I do not have a subscription but:

Warren Gatland says he turned down New Zealand’s invitation to apply for the All Blacks job out of loyalty to the British and Irish Lions as well as the Chiefs, the Super Rugby club he joined after leaving his post with Wales.

Gatland was on New Zealand’s list of candidates to succeed Steve Hansen but stuck with his plan to lead the Lions to South Africa in 2021. “I was asked to apply for the position now and I’ve gone back to them to say I won’t be putting my name forward, because at this point I’ve made a commitment to the Chiefs and I’ve made a commitment to the Lions,” Gatland told Telegraph Sport in an interview to launch his autobiography.

“They appreciated it, they understood it,” Gatland said. “I just think it would look poor me applying [for the All Blacks job]. It wouldn’t sit well with me, having already made those commitments to the other two parties.”

Commonly seen as the No 1 in international rugby coaching, Gatland was coy on the possibility of one day managing England, but reflected on his history of mind games with Eddie Jones while criticising the Rugby Football Union for not building a national training centre to match the one Wales have: “I don’t know why they haven’t recognised what a difference that would make.”

The Lions will be relieved to learn that Gatland deferred his wish to coach his home nation. He says: “The thing about the All Blacks is, going back to New Zealand, being involved in Super Rugby, seeing how the Lions go - in another couple of years with the Chiefs, if you’re successful where you are, the opportunities come.

“I’m not saying ‘how do I become the All Blacks coach?’ That will happen if you do a good job and you’re successful. That means that if I’m successful with the Chiefs, that opportunity might come along. Maybe it won’t. It’s not at the forefront of my thinking.”

In Gatland’s absence, Ian Foster, Scott Robertson, Jamie Joseph and Dave Rennie are the front-runners to coach the All Blacks, beaten by England in the World Cup semi-finals. “The next six weeks will be interesting. I’ll kind of sit back and enjoy the process,” Gatland says.

With Eddie Jones staying on at Twickenham, the possibility of Gatland coaching England has receded. The suspension of their rivalry meanwhile will deprive the Six Nations of much spice. In the latest round, Gatland suggested England may have already played the World Cup final in their semi, prompting Jones to say he hoped Gatland would enjoy “the third and fourth-place play-off.”

“I wasn’t talking specifically about England,” says Gatland, who cites New Zealand’s laboured performance against France in 2011 World Cup final after they had beaten Australia 20-6 in the semis. “I was referring back to that. What people have got to realise as well was that in that England semi-final, when you get to a performance like that it’s right at the highest point of emotion. And people don’t realise it’s very, very difficult to bring that emotion the following week. I’ve experienced that in the past. That’s sport. Potentially it may have happened to England.

“New Zealand had beaten South Africa in pool play and England had dominated their semi-final; there was so much expectation, with people thinking they were going to win, but it just didn’t happen for them in the final. I thought that England performance [against the All Blacks] was one of the best rugby performances I’ve seen for a long long time. A different team turned up the following week.”

Gatland says of the friction with Jones:  “It’s a game. We realise it’s a game. I think we both know how it works. Sometimes the questions that are asked of us, if we haven’t seen the comments of the other, are twisted a little bit, manipulated.

“We’ve been out for dinner a couple of times with the coaching staffs, before the Six Nations. I think we’re aware there’s a bit of side games that go on sometimes. You might say things where you’re taking a bit of pressure off the players and that becomes the focus. I’ve learnt not to get too involved in that. In the past I would have thrown a few hand grenades in there and said things, but you’ll have noticed in the last few campaigns and even the World Cup I didn’t say a lot of things publicly, just kept my head down. And Eddie’s brilliant at it; [he can] do enough talking for all of us.

“He talked about them [New Zealand] being the greatest team in the world and Kieran Read being the greatest captain in the world. He was obviously contrived with some of the comments. One of the things you learn about New Zealand is that they take it so much to heart if you’re critical about them.”

As his book amply demonstrates, Gatland is a worldly figure. He speaks movingly of South Africa’s World Cup win: “I was at the dinner on the Sunday - the World Rugby awards dinner - and Siya Kilosi [the black Springbok captain], the way he spoke was outstanding. It kind of brought everything back into perspective - that sport is bigger sometimes than the game or the result. What winning, to South Africa, actually meant, to the nation, the country.”

Coaching England was a prospect that enticed him, he says, during his spell at Wasps (2002-2005): “Definitely at that stage, at some time it would have appealed to me. I went through an exercise in my mind and looked at the two squads at this World Cup and thought - how many of our players would make the England squad, and I thought - maybe eight or nine.

“How many would have started? I’m not too sure. Our guys gave us everything, yet there’s probably 10 or 15 England players who didn’t make the England squad who would possibly be good enough for our squad as well. That’s a testament to the Welsh boys in how much they gave.

“You’re right about the resources England have. I know they’ve got Pennyhill Park, but one of the things that’s surprised me is why they haven’t got their own training centre. I’ve been surprised over the years that England have spent millions and millions of pounds on Twickenham and haven’t gone and built a purpose-built training centre that would be the envy of the world. That’s a step they’ve missed along the way in the time I’ve been here.”

In the home of the Grand Slam champions, Gatland says, “Players come in for the first time and go ‘wow - I can see why Wales have done so well.’”

Wales now face the daunting challenge of preserving the gains made by Warren Gatland, who argues that the country’s self-image has been transformed.

“At 16-all with seven minutes to go in that semi-final, we just felt a bit of a momentum shift towards us and I honestly believed we were going to win that game,” Gatland says of Wales’ defeat in Yokohama. A late line-out penalty against Wales was, he says, “a harsh decision. Handre Pollard’s kicked it and we’ve lost the game 19-16. No disrespect to England but I spoke to a number of South Africans at the dinner afterwards and they felt that semi-final game was a lot harder than the final against England.

“I’m not saying we’d have beaten England in the final but it would have been brilliant for northern hemisphere rugby to have us and England in the final.”

Gatland paid tribute to the players he has left behind: “They don’t know how to give up. I kind of liken it to a sponge. We squeezed every last drop of water out of that sponge and the players gave us everything. I’m really proud of what we’ve achieved as a small nation and I can walk away from Wales with my head held high and say we definitely have the respect of other teams in the world because of what we’ve achieved in Six Nations, Grand Slams, and what we’ve done in World Cups. That to me is the biggest accolade.

“Knowing how important rugby is to the Welsh, they can walk around with their chests pumped out a little bit, with pride and respect. When those players put that red jersey on it really means something to them in a team that, on their day, is capable of beating anyone in the world.”

Pride and Passion: My Autobiography by Warren Gatland is published in hardback by Headline on Thursday

[No 7&1/2]

I wish they'd stop talking about him and england. Keep it to New Zealand.

[Gooseberry]

At risk of agreeing with Taylorman...
Englands record in the U20s world cup has been as good as anyones, last year was the first time they've finished outside the top two since 2013 and they have 3 seconds and a third in the ones prior to that. 
1 final, one group stage, one quarter final in that era. 

SA and NZ have been much better at translating young talent into world cup winners. Although NZ had a rare blip in world cups "only" reaching the semi final they were the dominant side in the world only two years ago. 

It does look like we have entered a period where there will be more competition for them in the RC than there had been for a number of years, but that should drive them to get better and demand more from their players. England and SA are both well placed to keep pressuring NZ, but whilst it might be a bit more competitive than things felt 4 years ago I dont buy that the wheels have fallen off  the All Blacks altogether.

[LondonTiger]

It is just a fluff piece for his book launch that happens in London - talking about England is the best way to drum up interest. The NZ launch will see different questions asked.

[No 7&1/2]

Hope so LT. Hes obviously a good coach but for me a terrible selector. Gets away with it for wales as theres much less choice but reckon that would be the thing that did for him in either england or New Zealand posts.

[LondonTiger]

At risk of agreeing with Taylorman...
Englands record in the U20s world cup has been as good as anyones, last year was the first time they've finished outside the top two since 2013 and they have 3 seconds and a third in the ones prior to that. 
1 final, one group stage, one quarter final in that era. 

SA and NZ have been much better at translating young talent into world cup winners. Although NZ had a rare blip in world cups "only" reaching the semi final they were the dominant side in the world only two years ago. 

It does look like we have entered a period where there will be more competition for them in the RC than there had been for a number of years, but that should drive them to get better and demand more from their players. England and SA are both well placed to keep pressuring NZ, but whilst it might be a bit more competitive than things felt 4 years ago I dont buy that the wheels have fallen off  the All Blacks altogether.

Not sure anyone is saying the wheels have fallen off, but I have seen a number of articles stating that players coming through the system at the moment are not as good as in the past. It is correct not too put too much emphasis on the U20's performances in a one off competition, but that the number of players coming through that pathway into super rugby has declined. Any weakness in that pipeline only becomes really apparent about 8 years later when you are expecting the guys in their late 20s to be the core of the team.

NZ were an ageing team in 2015 and there is a lot of experience heading out of the door now too. The All Blacks will cope, but the job for the new coach will not be an easy one.

[Old Man]

It can only be a good thing if England and SA can consistently compete with NZ, as much as I respect them the game needs competition at the top.

Whether SA and England can continue on from here is of course another matter alltogether

[SecretFly]

And what about Australia?

They've beaten ABs five times plus two draws since 2010, is it?

I think of all the sides that might find consistency of competitiveness ( in the post Cheika years) it looks a good bet that Australia will be up there....... provided NZ themselves keep their standards up in the first place.

[Old Man]

Yes, Australia has been through some worrying times, but hopefully new coach, new success

[mikey_dragon]

Who's likely to captain Wales once AWJ retires?  Tipuric would be a possible choice but might not have too long left on the clock.

Wrong thread!

[mikey_dragon]

Yes obviously but tying it to world cup success is a tenuous link, ok to say one thing without drawing such a long conclusion. It’s NZs Super rugby success that creates All Blacks, the standard, continuity and consistency through the five sides over dozens of matches not the u20s success which is a three week tournament of one offs, a long bow. They didn’t lose this year because of some u20 result in the past is all I’m saying.

In saying that, it’s possibly a point due to the domination of previous under 20 sides but I also think it’s about other sides, like Wales, England, Ireland and SA putting more into their under 20 programmes. NZ didnt even play anyone before those tournaments back then, where the 6 N has a 6N of it going on from what I read here. So I just think it’s the same old story of others playing catch up...again.

Going forward NZ will want to come up with ways of getting back on track, getting back to the usual dominance it’s used to, and aptgats what tends to happen after a NZ loss. One step back, two steps forward. We’ve just gotta be smarter about how we approach the opposition. We need to focus on them as much as ourselves. I think Hansen forgot that a little.

When Jones says he’s been preparing for this for two years, you listen. As you said with Cane being dropped, Hansen threw another carrot in by removing a major breakdown specialist. Although it had positives it proved part of the downfall. We didn’t make tactical errors like that last time around. And as good as the 2015 side was, they were still beatable, semis and at times in the final. But tactically they were right up there.

Back in the days when the U20s was a one team competition, when the Baby Blacks would put 100 points on teams, wasn't it due to a host of their players having ITM cup experience? Perhaps one or two even had SR experience. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't NZ and Aussie schools regularly play each other anyway? That's basically the U18s team.

Even if NZ u20s don't continue to win every year I'm certain a number of those players will make the step-up. When you're playing SR you're playing at the level required for international rugby. So I can't picture NZ ever not producing a side that can win trophies.

[No 7&1/2]

It can certainly help hugely when you get a side with a wealth of talent that becomes the core senior side. However realistically you could have mediocre u 20s sides with 1 world class player and it would be more than enough to maintain standards at the higher level.

[eirebilly]

I actually think that Stuart Lancaster would be the ideal coach for the All Blacks...

[majesticimperialman]

I actually think that Stuart Lancaster would be the ideal coach for the All Blacks...

I all ways thought the head coach for the All Blacks, (HAD) to be a kiwi.

[Guest]

Not like the Welsh to expect others to pay for things they want to make use of

I bet you live in your mother's basement, don't you.

[Guest]

Thanks LT

[Sponsored content]