Brexit

First topic message reminder :

Tea anyone?

Duty281 wrote:The Tories slide down the polls, and the Brexit Party’s incline, is set to begin.

Johnson's team has been clever.......Spun gullible folk into thinking it's not his fault the extension and he has a willing MSM ready to churn out bollox for him....The young Lady from the BBC being a case in point....She ought to be on the Conservative payroll..

Won't be a Farage revival.....He has been outflanked.

I thought that, according to the Fixed Term Parliament Act, Britain had given a mandate to the current Government until 2021. Strange that we're being forced to vote again on this when it suits the Tories, but that a confirmatory referendum on a Brexit deal that will make Britain significantly poorer is "undemocratic".

CaledonianCraig wrote:
As I see it an early December election makes sense for several reasons. It will allow voters to voice their opinion on the Brexit situation so would be a sort of People's Referendum.

They're just not the same thing. My folks voted Remain, they are also Tories, they aren't going to swing away from years of that because of one issue.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:
As I see it an early December election makes sense for several reasons. It will allow voters to voice their opinion on the Brexit situation so would be a sort of People's Referendum.

They're just not the same thing. My folks voted Remain, they are also Tories, they aren't going to swing away from years of that because of one issue.

Of course there will be die-hards who will stick with their party come what may. However, rumour has it that as many as 50% of the UK electorate just now are undecided voters or floaters such is the confusion and chaos caused by Brexit.

That rumour is definitely not being represented in polling

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:
As I see it an early December election makes sense for several reasons. It will allow voters to voice their opinion on the Brexit situation so would be a sort of People's Referendum.

They're just not the same thing. My folks voted Remain, they are also Tories, they aren't going to swing away from years of that because of one issue.

Of course there will be die-hards who will stick with their party come what may. However, rumour has it that as many as 50% of the UK electorate just now are undecided voters or floaters such is the confusion and chaos caused by Brexit.

That does include the 30% of the electorate who don't vote so very misleading.

So how long before the first whispers of a Tory/Brexit Party pact are floating around? That scruffy tw4t in number 10 will do anything to stay PM, including offering Farage a place in the cabinet

BamBam wrote:So how long before the first whispers of a Tory/Brexit Party pact are floating around? That scruffy tw4t in number 10 will do anything to stay PM, including offering Farage a place in the cabinet

I think the Brexit Party offered such a pact before Boris agreed a deal that Farage was far from happy with so I cannot see there being any pact there.

Still think there's a strong possibility of talks between them that would promise some sort of "clean break" that Farage and the ERG muppets keep blithering on about

BamBam wrote:Still think there's a strong possibility of talks between them that would promise some sort of "clean break" that Farage and the ERG muppets keep blithering on about

It is possible I won't deny that as if it did happen it would mean both Johnson and Farage reneging on something they have said they won't do in the past.

[quote="BamBam"]So how long before the first whispers of a Tory/Brexit Party pact are floating around? That scruffy tw4t in number 10 will do anything to stay PM, including offering Farage a place in the cabinet[/quote]

How would they do that? He's not an MP, nor will he be after the next election. They could make him a lord I suppose. Lord D!ckhead of Thanet maybe? He's also got no talent except for making trouble (which might still put him ahead of some of the cabinet, but still..).

What would a pact actually mean. 'We ask our supporters to vote conservative?' No guarantee they will. No guarantee they will get any seats at all, although I'd bet on them getting 3rd even 2nd places in the odd hell hole of a constituency.

So is a NO DEAL Brexit completely off the agenda / impossible? Jeremy Corbyn is saying there is now a guarantee of this and so he will agree to an early General Election. Is this true?

No name Bertie wrote:So is a NO DEAL Brexit completely off the agenda / impossible?   Jeremy Corbyn is saying there is now a guarantee of this and so he will agree to an early General Election.  Is this true?

He must have been given assurances. If that is the case then rule out any pace between the Tories and the Brexit Party. This could get interesting.....

lostinwales wrote:

BamBam wrote:So how long before the first whispers of a Tory/Brexit Party pact are floating around? That scruffy tw4t in number 10 will do anything to stay PM, including offering Farage a place in the cabinet

How would they do that? He's not an MP, nor will he be after the next election. They could make him a lord I suppose. Lord D!ckhead of Thanet maybe? He's also got no talent except for making trouble (which might still put him ahead of some of the cabinet, but still..).

What would a pact actually mean. 'We ask our supporters to vote conservative?' No guarantee they will. No guarantee they will get any seats at all, although I'd bet on them getting 3rd even 2nd places in the odd hell hole of a constituency.

He's surely going to stand in a strong leave seat? Suppose the pact could be that they would not field candidates in the strong Tory heartland Home Counties with big leave majorities, while the Tories would stand down in the northern constituencies where they would never win anyway, and it will be Brexit Party vs Labour in the strongest leave supporting areas[/quote]

BamBam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

BamBam wrote:So how long before the first whispers of a Tory/Brexit Party pact are floating around? That scruffy tw4t in number 10 will do anything to stay PM, including offering Farage a place in the cabinet

How would they do that? He's not an MP, nor will he be after the next election. They could make him a lord I suppose. Lord D!ckhead of Thanet maybe? He's also got no talent except for making trouble (which might still put him ahead of some of the cabinet, but still..).

What would a pact actually mean. 'We ask our supporters to vote conservative?' No guarantee they will. No guarantee they will get any seats at all, although I'd bet on them getting 3rd even 2nd places in the odd hell hole of a constituency.

He's surely going to stand in a strong leave seat? Suppose the pact could be that they would not field candidates in the strong Tory heartland Home Counties with big leave majorities, while the Tories would stand down in the northern constituencies where they would never win anyway, and it will be Brexit Party vs Labour in the strongest leave supporting areas

If No Deal is off the table as Corbyn must have been assured then similarly there will be no deal between the Tories and the Brexit Party.

I think he is a fool for believing any assurances. He must think the best time to get his hands on the keys to number 10 is now, as Boris hasn't succeeded on what he promised. Leave it any longer then that will evaporate and people will start turning their anger at his party for dithering and delaying.

You have Leavers, Remainers and Just Get On With It-ers. I think a good portion of those that voted Leave are now in this bracket.....maybe not as convinced as before on the merits of Leave, but equally not in anyway desiring to Remain.

Yay, so who's excited about the December general election then?

Yep, thought as much.

I'll be honest and as a Corbyn supporting Remainer who wants to see the back of the Tories, I'm worried. Not so much worried about prospects of Labour, but more about what will happen to our NHS following a Tory majority - I really do think its on its last legs and would be finished off next time round.

Labour did do well in 2017, but that was with an excellent (and surprisingly unified) campaign they ran then up against a disastrous Tory campaign. This time round, under Johnson, the Tories will avoid any gaffes like the 'death tax' and keep their message brutally simple whilst ramping up the dirty tricks under Crosby. Expect an anti-Semitism scandal or 2 to miraculously emerge in time for the election campaign.

I'm a bit disappointed in the change of tactics amongst the opposition - I thought SNP/Lib Dems and Labour worked really well together on fighting the parliament suspension and helping to stop no Deal, but I fear they've made a mistake here (for which I blame all 3 of those parties) enabling Johnson to fight election on pretty much his terms.

Even if Johnson gets a single figure majority, due to the defections and expulsions of Remain minded Tory MPs he will end up with a much easier route to implementing a hard Brexit due to a more Brexity parliamentary intake amongst the next parliament's Tory MPs.

Feeling pessimistic at moment - can anyone give me some reasons to be cheerful from a centre/left of centre Remain point of view?

I may be wrong - but this "no deal assurance" - may be an assurance that a no deal can't now happen by hook or crook before 31 Jan 2020. So a general election before then cannot be used as a tactic to default the UK out of the EU.

No that is true, but I read it as it will tie any Remainer MPs hands behind their back.

As long as the Tory party is the largest party (even without a majority), Boris can say it is a mandate from the people. It is either my deal or no deal. Woe betide any MP that try and delay again - rightly or wrongly.

Mr Invisible - I do feel your only hope is a monumental Boris gaff. I can't even see there being any sort of Leaders debates. I think the Tories will win as the Leave party and the Remain vote will be split a few ways. I did suggest before that it could be a Brexit Party v Lib Dems shootout, but now Boris has a "deal" its enough for those who voted Brexit Party in the Euro elections to come back into the Tory fold.

Reason to be cheerful is that if anyone is likely to make a gaff, then it is our current PM!

Is a Brexit without a full customs union inconsistent with the Good Friday Agreement of NI?  I recall Angela Merkel being quoted as saying something similar and saying that was an issue for Westminster and not the EU.  Boris' deal treats NI as a separate entity from the rest of the UK with a custums border separating it from the rest of the UK (which some might see as the beginning of NI separation from the UK and possibly a reabsorption into the rest of Ireland).

MrInvisible wrote:more about what will happen to our NHS following a Tory majority - I really do think its on its last legs and would be finished off next time round.

Labour did do well in 2017, but that was with an excellent (and surprisingly unified) campaign they ran then up against a disastrous Tory campaign.  This time round, under Johnson, the Tories will avoid any gaffes like the 'death tax' and keep their message brutally simple whilst ramping up the dirty tricks under Crosby.  Expect an anti-Semitism scandal or 2 to miraculously emerge in time for the election campaign.

Ah yes, the old NHS will be killed off under the Tories line. Repeated ad nauseam since the 60s, never comes to pass. Funny that.

Agree that Labour will find it tougher in this election, as while Johnson’s credibility is trashed, he is an astute political campaigner. Also agree that anti-semitism scandals will be pronounced during the election campaign...but as Labour is an anti-Semitic party, you have to expect and accept that this will happen.

Duty281 wrote:

MrInvisible wrote:more about what will happen to our NHS following a Tory majority - I really do think its on its last legs and would be finished off next time round.

Labour did do well in 2017, but that was with an excellent (and surprisingly unified) campaign they ran then up against a disastrous Tory campaign.  This time round, under Johnson, the Tories will avoid any gaffes like the 'death tax' and keep their message brutally simple whilst ramping up the dirty tricks under Crosby.  Expect an anti-Semitism scandal or 2 to miraculously emerge in time for the election campaign.

Ah yes, the old NHS will be killed off under the Tories line. Repeated ad nauseam since the 60s, never comes to pass. Funny that.

A rather reductive argument, don't you think? How's funding been for the NHS since the start of the Cameron years?

Oh dear...Seems like the Mysogynistic...Racist...Bigot is getting cold feet because despite trying to 'fix' the Election by bringing in Voter ID and disenfranchising poor people everywhere...He is complaining that votes at 16 is being added to try to 'fix' the Election..

Aw bless him.

No name Bertie wrote:So is a NO DEAL Brexit completely off the agenda / impossible?   Jeremy Corbyn is saying there is now a guarantee of this and so he will agree to an early General Election.  Is this true?

He has to agree to the GE..........Everyone else wants one..

Forced into it.

Government spokesman confirms that if amendment for extension of franchise to 16/17 year olds and EU citizens passes, the government will pull the bill.

Can't have people who are actually likely to be affected for more than 10 years before dying be allowed to vote obviously

Duty281 wrote:

MrInvisible wrote:more about what will happen to our NHS following a Tory majority - I really do think its on its last legs and would be finished off next time round.

Labour did do well in 2017, but that was with an excellent (and surprisingly unified) campaign they ran then up against a disastrous Tory campaign.  This time round, under Johnson, the Tories will avoid any gaffes like the 'death tax' and keep their message brutally simple whilst ramping up the dirty tricks under Crosby.  Expect an anti-Semitism scandal or 2 to miraculously emerge in time for the election campaign.

Ah yes, the old NHS will be killed off under the Tories line. Repeated ad nauseam since the 60s, never comes to pass. Funny that..

Churchill scraped a victory in 1950...(Lost the popular vote)...So he didn't have the numbers..

Heath and MacMillan were moderates from what I have read about them (McMillan was scathing about Thatcher's privatisation).....

Britain joined the EU before Thatcher......Major would be a Lib Dem these days and Cameron had a coalition..

So your statement doesn't really float...

Given the age of criminal responsibility is 10 for the UK, I think there is a good case for extending the age of franchise down to 10.

BamBam wrote:Government spokesman confirms that if amendment for extension of franchise to 16/17 year olds and EU citizens passes, the government will pull the bill.

Can't have people who are actually likely to be affected for more than 10 years before dying be allowed to vote obviously

Time to call Boris 'frit', 'yellow', 'yellow-bellied' and scared perhaps?

BamBam wrote: ... Can't have people who are actually likely to be affected for more than 10 years before dying be allowed to vote obviously

Maybe those people with less than 10 years to live on average should be removed from the franchise. It only seems fair.  Let's have a voting age of 10 to 69 for men and 10 to 73 for women.

No name Bertie wrote:Given the age of criminal responsibility is 10 for the UK, I think there is a good case for extending the age of franchise down to 10.

It’s 10 for England and Wales, 8 for Scotland.

I was fully aware of the world at 10, I barely knew which power ranger I preferred let alone a political party.

Duty281 wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:Given the age of criminal responsibility is 10 for the UK, I think there is a good case for extending the age of franchise down to 10.

It’s 10 for England and Wales, 8 for Scotland.

Wow - thanks for that information. I read somewhere that "childhood" was a modern invention - that in the past the view was that you had swaddling infants and young adults.  In the past large families were the norm where "young adults" had to contribute to the economic survival of the family / clan.

Soul Requiem wrote:I was fully aware of the world at 10, I barely knew which power ranger I preferred let alone a political party.

When is your 11th birthday ??

I fully accept that there are arguments to allow 16/17 year olds to vote, and personally don't have a strong opinion either way on it.

Is adding it to a bill calling for an election really the right time for it to be debated though?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Oh dear...Seems like the Mysogynistic...Racist...Bigot is getting cold feet because despite trying to 'fix' the Election by bringing in Voter ID and disenfranchising poor people everywhere...He is complaining that votes at 16 is being added to try to 'fix' the Election..

Aw bless him.

Which one?

Trebs wrote:I fully accept that there are arguments to allow 16/17 year olds to vote, and personally don't have a strong opinion either way on it.

Is adding it to a bill calling for an election really the right time for it to be debated though?

I don't see it as an issue considering that 16 and 17-year-olds have voted in Scotland and Wales for a number of years now without any issues.

They were allowed to vote in the Tory leadership Election too..

As I understand it the reservations are with allowing EU citizens a vote.

If 16 year olds and EU citizens can't vote, then coffin dodgers and "ex pats" particularly those who voted leave from the Costa Del Sol should also have their vote removed

Duty281 wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:Given the age of criminal responsibility is 10 for the UK, I think there is a good case for extending the age of franchise down to 10.

It’s 10 for England and Wales, 8 for Scotland.

Scotland lose again!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I was fully aware of the world at 10, I barely knew which power ranger I preferred let alone a political party.

When is your 11th birthday ??

What time are the riots? Dont want to be late.

Brexit as a name now looks olde language. Its sexiness has migrated downfield and no amount of viagra is going to re-engorge it. It's mucho stale in light of the new climate of campaign speeches and empty-promise bandwagoning.

So Time for a name change - Elexit!

SecretFly wrote:Brexit as a name now looks olde language.  Its sexiness has migrated downfield and no amount of viagra is going to re-engorge it.  It's mucho stale in light of the new climate of campaign speeches and empty-promise bandwagoning.

So Time for a name change - Elexit!

Or if Lib Dems get in ..... Scrubbit.

Thought theirs was Bollexit?

Have we left yet? They're cutting it fine. Do or die.

Who moved the ditch?

I'm just dreading all the riots that will happen if Brexit doesn't get done on October the 31st. No riots so far. It is nippy outside though...

The rioters stayed at home. Who needs to go to a riot when you get your way?

All quiet on the back fence, fly?