Brexit

First topic message reminder :

Tea anyone?

Do you have evidence that membership did not want May's deal? After all, they helped vote May in as PM, to get a deal, then the ERG defied her.  

Also, no deal is not in the membership's best interests.

The membership didn't vote May in as PM at all, Leadsom pulled out before it got that far but they did overwhelming vote in Johnson.

That's true, Leadsom pulled out. So May had no legitimacy at all. Why didn't the members revolt and demand she be removed?

Also - Do you have evidence that membership did not want May's deal?

Shifty wrote:I started out as a reluctant remainer, ended up voting leave because no one in all the debates during the referendum could actually tell me what benefit to us the EU was, all they did was threaten us. Rolling out Major and Blair side by side was a massive mistake, so many people hate Tony Blair with a passion that was probably the worst possible mistake they could of made. Then finally George Osbourne threatening us with that budget was the final straw for my vote.

I am sorry, this is such an immature reason to decide how to vote on such a high stakes issue.
Who cares if you don't like some of the politicians who supported remain? I can list even more unpleasant figures on the Brexit side. Perhaps you should base your vote on what's pragmatic instead?

And as for the fact Remainers were negative and had Project Fear... I do agree that they did exaggerate the impact. However it is true that our economy has already lost billions to Brexit, and we haven't even had it yet. No Deal would cause our already flailing economy to go into a recession.
Also logically, it is hard for the Remainers to not sound like Project Fear. As we're already in the EU, the best way for them to illustrate the positives of being in the EU is discuss how things would be worse if we leave. It's hard for them to talk about positive improvements when they're trying to defend the status quo. People need to stop reacting emotionally and think with their head.

Or people can vote the way they want for the reasons they want.

Soul Requiem wrote:Or people can vote the way they want for the reasons they want.

Including MPs. That's what the public elect them to do.

Soul Requiem wrote:Or people can vote the way they want for the reasons they want.

Right. And if it's for childish and immature reasons, I'm allowed to call that out.

Soul Requiem wrote:Different situation altogether, the membership are the one who provide the party with a means to survive and the party should be acting in their best interests not the other way round.

Government policy and party policy are two different things.

To the bit in underline: No.
The MPs should be acting in the best interests of their constituency and the country. Party members are not representative of the average population, they tend to be more split on the extremes.

Prediction...

Johnson who is 11...12....7 points ahead in the latest polls loses control of Brexit in the Commons on Wednesday....Which in fairness he hopes to..

Thursday he says Parliament are trying to screw the British public who voted for Brexit..

Says he wants a GE...Labour have to fall in behind the demand...How can they not ???

Farage says he will back Boris with No Deal...


The above scenario makes sense because Farage has stated if No Deal Brexit doesn't happen on 31st October Johnson is a fraud.

If a GE is called next week or the week after....Looking at Oct 17/24..

Also looking at a filthy...lying...racist...misogynistic bigot getting a decent majority..

Very sad...

It Must Be Love wrote:

Shifty wrote:I started out as a reluctant remainer, ended up voting leave because no one in all the debates during the referendum could actually tell me what benefit to us the EU was, all they did was threaten us.  Rolling out Major and Blair side by side was a massive mistake, so many people hate Tony Blair with a passion that was probably the worst possible mistake they could of made.  Then finally George Osbourne threatening us with that budget was the final straw for my vote.

I am sorry, this is such an immature reason to decide how to vote on such a high stakes issue.
Who cares if you don't like some of the politicians who supported remain? I can list even more unpleasant figures on the Brexit side. Perhaps you should base your vote on what's pragmatic instead?

And as for the fact Remainers were negative and had Project Fear... I do agree that they did exaggerate the impact. However it is true that our economy has already lost billions to Brexit, and we haven't even had it yet. No Deal would cause our already flailing economy to go into a recession.
Also logically, it is hard for the Remainers to not sound like Project Fear. As we're already in the EU, the best way for them to illustrate the positives of being in the EU is discuss how things would be worse if we leave. It's hard for them to talk about positive improvements when they're trying to defend the status quo. People need to stop reacting emotionally and think with their head.

"no one in all the debates during the referendum could actually tell me what benefit to us the EU was"

So your telling me that no politician campaigning for Remain could tell me what benefit to the country or myself the EU was, yet it's an immature reason to vote to leave it?

The people who voted to leave the EU overwhelmingly where the older people, yet when they were young they were the hippy generation, you can't get more left wing than that lot, it should tell you all you need to know about how much failure has resulted from our membership.  

The Euro has been a total disaster, and hurt the EU citizens of and bankrupted several countries, the EU knew with 100% accuracy in 1990 that this would happen, but did it anyway to "build the project".  The Deutsche bank clearly stated that Greece would first go bankrupt, then Italy would follow later on and collapse the currency.  If you read Norman Lamont's autobiography "In Office", it was published in 1996, while the Euro appeared in 1999, and Greece went through in 2008.  He tells you why he chose not to sign us up to the Euro, essentially, because the Germans told us not to because it would be a total disaster!

Idiots keep trying to unify Europe, which eventually leads to a total mess and war is the final result.  But most people aren't even aware we are near the same place we were prior to World War 1.  The Euro is basically the Deutsche Mark.  The last time Europe did this, the French Franc was the lead currency, and it collapsed because Greece couldn't be fiscally responsible, and because the Greeks took the mickey, the Italians copied them, and they were big enough to collapse it because they were too big to bail out.  Most of you know Greece has gone bust with debts of $400 billion for a population of 10 million.  While Italy are bankrupt, but haven't collapsed because of Target2, and quantitative easing and that will last until at some point a German will realise that they are owed billions of Euros by the countries around them who are taking them for a ride.  The fun will really begin when they try to call in those debts?

Look at the EU's own Target2 charts:
http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

The Germans are owed 942.3 Billion Euros.  What do you think happens if the currency collapses and they go to Spain and Italy and ask for 407, and 447 billion Euros respectively? I can guess and I want the UK as far away from it as possible!

I don't think we're heading for a Corbyn majority Trussman66 so no racist misogynist PM for a while yet.

Soul Requiem wrote:I don't think we're heading for a Corbyn majority Trussman66 so no racist misogynist PM for a while yet.

We currently have a racist one - based on his previous public utterances.

Shifty wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

Shifty wrote:I started out as a reluctant remainer, ended up voting leave because no one in all the debates during the referendum could actually tell me what benefit to us the EU was, all they did was threaten us.  Rolling out Major and Blair side by side was a massive mistake, so many people hate Tony Blair with a passion that was probably the worst possible mistake they could of made.  Then finally George Osbourne threatening us with that budget was the final straw for my vote.

I am sorry, this is such an immature reason to decide how to vote on such a high stakes issue.
Who cares if you don't like some of the politicians who supported remain? I can list even more unpleasant figures on the Brexit side. Perhaps you should base your vote on what's pragmatic instead?

And as for the fact Remainers were negative and had Project Fear... I do agree that they did exaggerate the impact. However it is true that our economy has already lost billions to Brexit, and we haven't even had it yet. No Deal would cause our already flailing economy to go into a recession.
Also logically, it is hard for the Remainers to not sound like Project Fear. As we're already in the EU, the best way for them to illustrate the positives of being in the EU is discuss how things would be worse if we leave. It's hard for them to talk about positive improvements when they're trying to defend the status quo. People need to stop reacting emotionally and think with their head.

"no one in all the debates during the referendum could actually tell me what benefit to us the EU was"

So your telling me that no politician campaigning for Remain could tell me what benefit to the country or myself the EU was, yet it's an immature reason to vote to leave it?

The people who voted to leave the EU overwhelmingly where the older people, yet when they were young they were the hippy generation, you can't get more left wing than that lot, it should tell you all you need to know about how much failure has resulted from our membership.  

The Euro has been a total disaster, and hurt the EU citizens of and bankrupted several countries, the EU knew with 100% accuracy in 1990 that this would happen, but did it anyway to "build the project".  The Deutsche bank clearly stated that Greece would first go bankrupt, then Italy would follow later on and collapse the currency.  If you read Norman Lamont's autobiography "In Office", it was published in 1996, while the Euro appeared in 1999, and Greece went through in 2008.  He tells you why he chose not to sign us up to the Euro, essentially, because the Germans told us not to because it would be a total disaster!

Idiots keep trying to unify Europe, which eventually leads to a total mess and war is the final result.  But most people aren't even aware we are near the same place we were prior to World War 1.  The Euro is basically the Deutsche Mark.  The last time Europe did this, the French Franc was the lead currency, and it collapsed because Greece couldn't be fiscally responsible, and because the Greeks took the mickey, the Italians copied them, and they were big enough to collapse it because they were too big to bail out.  Most of you know Greece has gone bust with debts of $400 billion for a population of 10 million.  While Italy are bankrupt, but haven't collapsed because of Target2, and quantitative easing and that will last until at some point a German will realise that they are owed billions of Euros by the countries around them who are taking them for a ride.  The fun will really begin when they try to call in those debts?

Look at the EU's own Target2 charts:
http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

The Germans are owed 942.3 Billion Euros.  What do you think happens if the currency collapses and they go to Spain and Italy and ask for 407, and 447 billion Euros respectively?  I can guess and I want the UK as far away from it as possible!

There is a big difference between having the Euro as a currency and being a member of the EU.

When you write, in quotes, "no one in all the debates during the referendum could actually tell me what benefit to us the EU was" - who is that quote from?

JuliusHMarx wrote:There is a big difference between having the Euro as a currency and being a member of the EU.

When you write, in quotes, "no one in all the debates during the referendum could actually tell me what benefit to us the EU was" - who is that quote from?

The quote was from me.

The people running the EU are the same people who set up the Euro, the same people who were willing to inflict all this misery on European citizens so they could build the project.  Even going back to 1990 reading Norman Lamont's autobiography you will read the name Jean Claude Junker in that book.

It's why I'm worried.  I can see that Tommy Robinson could potentially be our Hitler, for most British World War 2 was not a bad thing.  It's was a backs to the wall heroic war won with British Bull Dog spirit.  We didn't surrender like the Italians, Germans and French to learn the lessons.  He has his scapegoat in Muslims, as Hitler did the Jews.  Still though if I didn't have Farage, I'd still vote UKIP over the Liberals, Tories and Labour because I think they are even worse!

Shifty wrote:

So your telling me that no politician campaigning for Remain could tell me what benefit to the country or myself the EU was, yet it's an immature reason to vote to leave it?

I criticised one of your specific reasons as immature because you wrote that the optics of having politicians you didn't like such as Blair standing next to John Major, made a significant difference in how you decided to vote.

As for no one telling you what the benefit to remaining in the EU was... if someone says that if we leave the EU, our GDP in 10 years time would be 4% lower compared to if we stayed in, that is the benefit to remaining. It just has to be framed as a 'potential loss' because the status quo is being in the EU. But you could equally view that as a 4% benefit.

As for the rest of your post, we aren't in the euro, and were already exempted from bailing out failing Euro countries. Leaving the EU will mean we are hurt economically, and we will also probably have less control as we have less leverage with trade deals with other countries outside Europe.

It Must Be Love wrote:I criticised one of your specific reasons as immature because you wrote that the optics of having politicians you didn't like such as Blair standing next to John Major, made a significant difference in how you decided to vote.  

As for no one telling you what the benefit to remaining in the EU was... if someone says that if we leave the EU, our GDP in 10 years time would be 4% lower compared to if we stayed in, that is the benefit to remaining. It just has to be framed as a 'potential loss' because the status quo is being in the EU. But you could equally view that as a 4% benefit.

As for the rest of your post, we aren't in the euro, and were already exempted from bailing out failing Euro countries. Leaving the EU will mean we are hurt economically, and we will also probably have less control as we have less leverage with trade deals with other countries outside Europe.

We've given £7 billion to Ireland, £4.3 billion to Portugal, £1.2 billion to Greece directly, and £9.2 billion towards the IMF bail out already.  They worked around the "veto" years ago...
The IMF bails out the Euro countries to the tune of 544 billion Euroes.  We are part of the IMF, so the "veto" is and always was irrelevant.

Soul Requiem wrote:I don't think we're heading for a Corbyn majority Trussman66 so no racist misogynist PM for a while yet.

Corbyn is useless and I blame him for the upcoming Johnson majority....But I don't believe he is a racist....You certainly can't give me a single quote...Though I can quote Johnson..

Perhaps not take everything 'The Sun' writes as gospel..

Happy to vote Labour though just like I'd be happy voting Lib Dem..Green...SNP or Plaid if they were the opposition in a marginal against a No deal Candidate..

Recomnend others too hold their noses and vote for the leading anti Tory Candidate whether they hate Labour..Lib Dems..SNP etc or not..

No Deal will be a disaster.

I'm a reader of 'The Sun' now am I? That's quite some generalisation.

Julius

In response to your post earlier about the Tory membership not ousting May, I actually don't have an answer to that and would ask them myself as to why they didn't do more in that regard.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Corbyn is useless and I blame him for the upcoming Johnson majority....But I don't believe he is a racist....You certainly can't give me a single quote...

I agree, I prefer to call him a Weak, Anti-British, Leftist Cuck.  Who's from an outdated version of Marxist Socialism that the Globalists thought they had eradicated decades ago.  I'd still back him over Tony Blair every day of the week and twice on Sundays!
I must admit I do like George Galloway though, what he did in the US senate is the stuff of legend!   Not since 1814 has a British guy stormed into the capital and burnt it down quite like George did.  Yanis Varoufakis is another favourite,  very, very clever bloke who talks a lot of sense.

Also, nothing wrong with the Sun newspaper:
2019 monthly circulation:
The Sun 1,410,896 <--- British Working Class
Daily Mail 1,246,568 <--- Middle Class
The Guardian 141,160 <--- Lefties

Shifty wrote:

We've given £7 billion to Ireland, £4.3 billion to Portugal, £1.2 billion to Greece directly, and £9.2 billion towards the IMF bail out already.  They worked around the "veto" years ago...

What has this got to do with the EU?

Shifty wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Corbyn is useless and I blame him for the upcoming Johnson majority....But I don't believe he is a racist....You certainly can't give me a single quote...

I agree, I prefer to call him a Weak, Anti-British, Leftist Cuck.   

I've yet to come across anyone who uses cuck as a pejorative during a political debate who is reasonable.

It Must Be Love wrote:What has this got to do with the EU?

Eu ->
Eu advised not to create Euro ->
Eu creates Euro to advance project ->
Eu makes mess and countries go bankrupt ->
Eu citizens suffer, leading to rise of far right across Europe
Countries smart enough not to join the Euro bail it out indirectly via the IMF despite "veto"

It Must Be Love wrote:I've yet to come across anyone who uses cuck as a pejorative during a political debate who is reasonable.

On the grounds hes campaigned against the EU as an MP from 1983 to 2015, then suddenly changed his mind as soon as he became Labour leader I think it's a fair choice of words.

Shifty wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:There is a big difference between having the Euro as a currency and being a member of the EU.

When you write, in quotes, "no one in all the debates during the referendum could actually tell me what benefit to us the EU was" - who is that quote from?

The quote was from me.

The people running the EU are the same people who set up the Euro, the same people who were willing to inflict all this misery on European citizens so they could build the project.  Even going back to 1990 reading Norman Lamont's autobiography you will read the name Jean Claude Junker in that book.

It's why I'm worried.  I can see that Tommy Robinson could potentially be our Hitler, for most British World War 2 was not a bad thing.  It's was a backs to the wall heroic war won with British Bull Dog spirit.  We didn't surrender like the Italians, Germans and French to learn the lessons.  He has his scapegoat in Muslims, as Hitler did the Jews.  Still though if I didn't have Farage, I'd still vote UKIP over the Liberals, Tories and Labour because I think they are even worse!

I suppose if you prefer the most bigoted, racist and intolerant party (UKIP) over the others, that's your choice.

Soul Requiem wrote:I'm a reader of 'The Sun' now am I? That's quite some generalisation.

Julius

In response to your post earlier about the Tory membership not ousting May, I actually don't have an answer to that and would ask them myself as to why they didn't do more in that regard.

Most logically, it's because they wanted her in there to get a deal - which the ERG then voted against i.e. they voted against the wishes of the membership. Surely grounds for deselection?

The membership didn't want her in there at all, the fact they didn't try to remove her doesn't really alter that, it's not as if she or her deal were particularly popular.

Soul Requiem wrote:The membership didn't want her in there at all, the fact they didn't try to remove her doesn't really alter that, it's not as if she or her deal were particularly popular.

How do you know the membership didn't want her? Do you have any evidence of that?

How do you know if her deal was popular with the membership or not?

Don't just speak on behalf of a group of people without backing it up with evidence.

I could equally say 99% of the population don't want no deal - if we're going the route of just making stuff up and pretending it's fact.

JuliusHMarx wrote:I suppose if you prefer the most bigoted, racist and intolerant party (UKIP) over the others, that's your choice.

Strictly speaking if there was an election tomorrow I'd go with the Brexit party.  I voted Labour in 1997, and 2001.  I voted Conservative in 2005, 2010, 2015 and 2017.  If Boris gets us out in October I would vote for him.  My logic being is that we had a Remainer Prime Minister in Theresa May and she made a hash of it, we will never leave with a deal because the EU won't give us one. We should go no deal and let German pragmatism and common sense do the rest. If Boris doesn't get us out in October I'm sticking with Farage, if Nigel retires I'd go with UKIP over the other shambles that passes for parties by default.  I'm an interested floating voter, who votes for the least rubbish of the available options.

Do you know any members of the Conservative party?

It doesn't take a genius to work it out really, all party polls had Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Javid, Patel and Gove down as more preferable leaders of the Conservatives, then there's ultimately voting in Johnson an advocate of leaving with or without a deal and not Hunt.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I don't think we're heading for a Corbyn majority Trussman66 so no racist misogynist PM for a while yet.

We currently have a racist one - based on his previous public utterances.

Boris Johnson is not a racist.  

You clearly have not directly experienced racism because you wouldn't trivialise it if you had experienced it.  

By trivialising racism you JuliusHMarx are a racist.

Pretty sure he's a bit of a racist.

Soul Requiem wrote:Do you know any members of the Conservative party?

It doesn't take a genius to work it out really, all party polls had Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Javid, Patel and Gove down as more preferable leaders of the Conservatives, then there's ultimately voting in Johnson an advocate of leaving with or without a deal and not Hunt.

That's simply not true.

No name Bertie wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I don't think we're heading for a Corbyn majority Trussman66 so no racist misogynist PM for a while yet.

We currently have a racist one - based on his previous public utterances.

Boris Johnson is not a racist.  

You clearly have not directly experienced racism because you wouldn't trivialise it if you had experienced it.  

By trivialising racism you JuliusHMarx are a racist.

JuliusHMarx is not a racist. By failing to condemn Boris Johnson's racist remarks, you NoNameBertie are a racist.

Samo wrote:Pretty sure he's a bit of a racist.

So you have never directly experienced racism either?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Do you know any members of the Conservative party?

It doesn't take a genius to work it out really, all party polls had Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Javid, Patel and Gove down as more preferable leaders of the Conservatives, then there's ultimately voting in Johnson an advocate of leaving with or without a deal and not Hunt.

That's simply not true.

It simply is true, let me guess you don't personally know any of the members?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I don't think we're heading for a Corbyn majority Trussman66 so no racist misogynist PM for a while yet.

We currently have a racist one - based on his previous public utterances.

Boris Johnson is not a racist.  

You clearly have not directly experienced racism because you wouldn't trivialise it if you had experienced it.  

By trivialising racism you JuliusHMarx are a racist.

JuliusHMarx is not a racist. By failing to condemn Boris Johnson's racist remarks, you NoNameBertie are a racist.

You have never experienced racism. You are disgustingly co-opting the label racism for your own political means. You are just like the arrogant racists that I have had to face in real life.

Soul Requiem wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Do you know any members of the Conservative party?

It doesn't take a genius to work it out really, all party polls had Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Javid, Patel and Gove down as more preferable leaders of the Conservatives, then there's ultimately voting in Johnson an advocate of leaving with or without a deal and not Hunt.

That's simply not true.

It simply is true, let me guess you don't personally know any of the members?

I know about 4 or 5 of them, but don't know thousands and thousands of them. Do you know, say, a thousand of them, that you spoke to as a good representative sample?

If you check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Conservative_Party_leadership_election#Opinion_polling, for example, you will find that your statement is not true, and repeating that it is true won't make it any more so.

No name Bertie wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I don't think we're heading for a Corbyn majority Trussman66 so no racist misogynist PM for a while yet.

We currently have a racist one - based on his previous public utterances.

Boris Johnson is not a racist.  

You clearly have not directly experienced racism because you wouldn't trivialise it if you had experienced it.  

By trivialising racism you JuliusHMarx are a racist.

JuliusHMarx is not a racist. By failing to condemn Boris Johnson's racist remarks, you NoNameBertie are a racist.

You have never experienced racism.  You are disgustingly co-opting the label racism for your own political means.   You are just like the arrogant racists that I have had to face in real life.

How can you possibly know what I have or have not experienced in my life? Are you saying that unless everyone reacts to racism in the same way as yourself that they are reacting in the wrong way? And that by reacting in a different way to yourself, then that makes them also a racist?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Do you know any members of the Conservative party?

It doesn't take a genius to work it out really, all party polls had Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Javid, Patel and Gove down as more preferable leaders of the Conservatives, then there's ultimately voting in Johnson an advocate of leaving with or without a deal and not Hunt.

That's simply not true.

It simply is true, let me guess you don't personally know any of the members?

I know about 4 or 5 of them, but don't know thousands and thousands of them. Do you know, say, a thousand of them, that you spoke to as a good representative sample?

If you check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Conservative_Party_leadership_election#Opinion_polling, for example, you will find that your statement is not true, and repeating that it is true won't make it any more so.

Fascinating in its irrelevance.

Soul Requiem wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Do you know any members of the Conservative party?

It doesn't take a genius to work it out really, all party polls had Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Javid, Patel and Gove down as more preferable leaders of the Conservatives, then there's ultimately voting in Johnson an advocate of leaving with or without a deal and not Hunt.

That's simply not true.

It simply is true, let me guess you don't personally know any of the members?

I know about 4 or 5 of them, but don't know thousands and thousands of them. Do you know, say, a thousand of them, that you spoke to as a good representative sample?

If you check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Conservative_Party_leadership_election#Opinion_polling, for example, you will find that your statement is not true, and repeating that it is true won't make it any more so.

Fascinating in its irrelevance.

"All polls showed May behind the others."
"Here's proof that isn't the case."
"Proof is irrelevant."
"Seen any unicorns lately?"

Polls from 2016 are very much relevant to today aren't they and must of course show that the membership were well behind a deal that hadn't even been negotiated yet, bravo.

You're the one who first mentioned the 2016 polls, to state that May was not wanted by the Tory membership. I'm simply pointing out that the polls didn't all show that.

The polls don't really show anything of the sort to be honest Julius, they show she was seen as preferable to Leadsom and Gove at the time, the latter has seen his stock rise within the party markedly in recent years.

Your argument is that any MP who votes against BJ should be deselected, as they are voting against the membership.

Some of the 2016 polls show that May was supported by the membership, but you don't think that any MP who voted against May, and thus did also vote against the membership, should be deselected.

Your position lacks consistency.

The polls don't show that at all and you're extrapolating information that simply is not there, if you'd ever been to a party conference you'd the actual position of party members.

Shifty wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:What has this got to do with the EU?

Eu ->
Eu advised not to create Euro ->
Eu creates Euro to advance project ->
Eu makes mess and countries go bankrupt ->
Eu citizens suffer, leading to rise of far right across Europe
Countries smart enough not to join the Euro bail it out indirectly via the IMF despite "veto"

Right. So this has nothing to do with UK leaving the EU. You brought up the Euro as justification for wanting to vote leave.

The Prime Minister and the MPs are paid to do best for the country, not their membership.

Soul Requiem wrote:The polls don't show that at all and you're extrapolating information that simply is not there, if you'd ever been to a party conference you'd the actual position of party members.

The poll of Tory party members that had May preferred to Johnson isn't extrapolating (any more than any poll extrapolates from a sample).

So do you have actual evidence that May was not supported by the membership? And that the membership supported the MPs who voted against her? Or just anecdotal evidence at best?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I don't think we're heading for a Corbyn majority Trussman66 so no racist misogynist PM for a while yet.

Corbyn is useless and I blame him for the upcoming Johnson majority....But I don't believe he is a racist....You certainly can't give me a single quote...Though I can quote Johnson..

Perhaps not take everything 'The Sun' writes as gospel..

Happy to vote Labour though just like I'd be happy voting Lib Dem..Green...SNP or Plaid if they were the opposition in a marginal against a No deal Candidate..

Recomnend others too hold their noses and vote for the leading  anti Tory Candidate whether they hate Labour..Lib Dems..SNP etc or not..

No Deal will be a disaster.

No worries Truss my vote will be on the SNP.

I am very proud to say I have never voted Tory in my life and I never will. That includes times when I have lived in England when either Labour or the Lib Dems got my vote.

It Must Be Love wrote:Right. So this has nothing to do with UK leaving the EU. You brought up the Euro as justification for wanting to vote leave.

Nope my argument consistently has been that the EU has always put the advancement of the project ahead of the well being of the individual European citizens, any organisation which does that is rotten to the core.  Greece has been crushed for no other reason than to trap people into poverty and suffering.  It was categorically stated that we had to have full political unity before introducing the single currency or it would be a disaster.  The rejection of the Maastricht Treaty by several countries proved that people did not want a United States of Europe so they forced it upon people a lot of the countries that were gullible enough to jump off a cliff.  

If MEP numbers were selected by countries population, could propose legislation and we could vote for our European Commissioner, AND abolish Westminster, the Lords and the regional assemblies I'd happily vote for the EU.  But we are so over governed under this system it's a complete joke.

Shifty wrote:
If MEP numbers were selected by countries population, could propose legislation and we could vote for our European Commissioner, AND abolish Westminster, the Lords and the regional assemblies I'd happily vote for the EU.  

I would never vote for that, that means other countries would be voting for our domestic spending and tax agenda? So weird you'd be happy with that.

Shifty wrote:Nope my argument consistently has been that the EU has always put the advancement of the project ahead of the well being of the individual European citizens, any organisation which does that is rotten to the core.

I agree that the EU, and other European institutions aren't perfect. But pragmatically we are better off in the EU than out, in terms of economics and control.