WALES VS ENGLAND - MATCH THREAD - Friendly????

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

WALES VS ENGLAND........................................It deserves a dedicated match thread.

Date: 17th AUG 2019
KO Time: 14:15
Venue: Principality Stadium, Cardiff.

Teams

Wales

Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Hadleigh Parkes, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Gareth Davies; Nicky Smith, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis; Jake Ball, Alun Wyn Jones (C); Aaron Wainwright, James Davies, Ross Moriarty.

Subs: Elliot Dee, Wyn Jones, Dillon Lewis, Aaron Shingler, Josh Navidi, Aled Davies, Jarrod Evans, Owen Watkin.

England

England starting XV v Wales
15 Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31 caps)
14 Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 41 caps)
12 Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
11 Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 5 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps) C
9 Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
1 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
2 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59 caps)
5 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps)
6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 72 caps)
7 Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps)

Finishers
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 59 caps)
18 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps)
19 George Kruis (Saracens, 33 caps)
20 Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1 cap)
21 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps)
22 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps)
23 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps)

Head to head -  Played 133 - England 63 - Wales 58 - Drawn 12

[WELL-PAST-IT]

LT, as a ref, what is your take on the ref allowing a quick penalty to be taken when:

He had had stopped the game to review of the deliberate knock on or not, Watson was still on the field walking off.
Heinz was down being treated for a head injury and a replacement had been called for and was on the touchline waiting for the officials to let him on.
Three water carriers were still on the field distributing drinks.
He obviously had not given any indication to the England side that he was ready to continue.
He did mark the spot, but is that an indication that the game can continue.

[RDW]

Did not see the game, nor seen any highlights etc (spending time with daughters and Tarantino to make up for going to Twickenham last week). I am told that while England could argue the balance of referee decisions were not in their favour, Wales were fully deserving of the win. 

If you had told me the lineups for the two games in advance I would have bitten your hand off for the aggregate score. Wales are a very good team and their 12 month form means they have deservedly won the right to be the number 1 ranked side in the world. Not sure what effect upcoming games will have on the rankings prior to WC start, but it should give the Welsh players a further confidence boost. 

So, while happy with the aggregate scores, a touch disappointed with the lack of discernible impact from our bench. Also a touch worried by the score from Nice.

On that point it's hard to know exactly what the result means for your group - Scotland were absolutely rank awful and clearly not yet match ready and were blown away. France were very, very good at times though and look to have finally got their sh!t together behind the scenes.

[LondonTiger]

LT, as a ref, what is your take on the ref allowing a quick penalty to be taken when:

He had had stopped the game to review of the deliberate knock on or not, Watson was still on the field walking off.
Heinz was down being treated for a head injury and a replacement had been called for and was on the touchline waiting for the officials to let him on.
Three water carriers were still on the field distributing drinks.
He obviously had not given any indication to the England side that he was ready to continue.
He did mark the spot, but is that an indication that the game can continue.

It is criminal for a pro side to switch off as I am told we did. That is the main thing I would take from the incident. 

The presence of physios on the pitch does not prevent a quick penalty. Watson not quite off the pitch does not prevent a quick penalty being taken. 

However there is an issue with the water carriers (other than being an utter abomination). They are only allowed to come on with the ref's permission and when there is a break in play. Play is only allowed to restart when the ref indicates. Similar with the replacement which can only happen in a break of play. If the 4th official had alerted the ref to the replacement it must be allowed to happen.

Thus the only reason that the quick tap should have been allowed is if the ref had not actually signalled a break in play and given water carriers permission to come on. I suspect that like England the ref switched off too and then panicked.

All in all though I refer to the first comment I made. England seem to have switched off. Hopefully they learn from this.

[No 7&1/2]

The ref had blown the whistle to restart play as well tbf.

[Yoda]

Either way it was a good try two crossfield kicks and a stroll in on the wing vacated by a winger. As a sent off player it's always best to jog off and players should be conditioned to turn in defensive line ready, so completely the players fault on that one. Gats will be happy with that shows brains are working at least. The contest was bitter attrition especially at the breakdown with England quite clearly trying to offload out of the tackle, clearly we are not quite proficient at it yet.

[RDW]

Poor 1/2P - apparently he had done a heavy fitness shesh on Friday then leg weights and a bike session on Saturday morning. Then had to play 80 minutes in the afternoon!

[majesticimperialman]

The ref had blown the whistle to restart play as well tbf.

I agree the ref did blow for restart. But surely he should of blown again when Watson was still going off, and for a yellow card. and the Heinz Head injury. 

That is what i cannot understand allowing play to go on wile players are still on the field who should not be.

[Hoonercat]

A bit harsh to accuse England of switching off. Players need breaks, they take them when play is stopped. I'm not convinced that any team would have been ready for play to resume with 6 water boys/physios on the field grouped in amongst the players and Watson was still only half way across the field. Credit to Biggar for quick thinking, no awards for sportsmanship though.
But as I said earlier, Wales would very likely have scored had Watson not intervened so it didn't really affect the result.

[No9]

There was nothing wrong with the quick take of the penalty, the ref blew to restart and Biggar reacted quickly. If roles reversed, you wouldn't be harping on about it.

As for coaches learning from these warm-up games, etc., is total baloney. Apart from testing one or two players, if any coach doesn't know his squad now, they are in a bad way and unprepared.

The warm-up games are exactly that. A chance for teams who haven't played a game since last season, to get themselves back match fit, and doesn't matter if they are nailed on to their shirt, they wont get match fitness unless you play them. Big risk, like Anscombe, is they can get injured, but you have to weigh that against them going into the tournament without playing a competitive game in months. The risk of injury is one you have to take for match fitness.

So what are the coaches learning. Eddie, nothing at all. He has named his squad and as such, the only purpose of these warm-ups is to gain match fitness. If they loose their remaining warm up games (which is unlikely), some will say they will go to the RWC with a psychological disadvantage. I think that's rubbish, as the strength of the England side (squad) is such, that they will bounce back stronger from losses.

Gats, has chosen to hold back on announcing his squad, and that itself is a good tactic, as those on the fringe will still give their all, to put a marker down as injuries (we know happen). But Gats and the team, know who are on the plane, which exception of a couple on the fringes. So what's Wales learning from the warm-ups. Learning, nothing really... what they are gaining is match fitness and giving them the chance to polish out the rustiness. I don't know why it is, don't think anyone does, but Wales do start campaigns slowly, so these warm-up games are essential to ensure the Welsh engine is running before the tournament starts.

So in summary, has these games meant anything so far.... Nope.. bu88er all. Only thing we cant conclude is that Wales and England have faced each other 3 times in 2019, and Wales are winning 2-1. BUT if they get to face each other again, the next one is the ONLY game that really matters.

[Cyril]

That was a terrible game. Awful to watch in terms of skills and tactics by both sides. None of these warm-up games so far have given any indication that the NH sides are going to have any impact at the RWC. Sadly it looks like a NZ/SA final already. NZ fans must have been laughing at what we’re serving up at the moment.

[LondonTiger]

I did not see any rugby yesterday so cannot really comment Cyril. By all accounts NZ were good, SA only so so. 

What I can say is that what I had seen of NZ in the RC games, their performances were the worst I have seen from them in many a year. While there may be reasons, I just do not see any teams a long way ahead of others.

[robbo277]

Disappointing game for an England fan, not that much in it for the neutral either I wouldn't have thought.

Touted the back row before the game but we struggled to secure our own ball and they'll have to hold their hands up to that.

Both teams will need to be better to challenge the sharp end of the World Cup.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

LT, as a ref, what is your take on the ref allowing a quick penalty to be taken when:

He had had stopped the game to review of the deliberate knock on or not, Watson was still on the field walking off.
Heinz was down being treated for a head injury and a replacement had been called for and was on the touchline waiting for the officials to let him on.
Three water carriers were still on the field distributing drinks.
He obviously had not given any indication to the England side that he was ready to continue.
He did mark the spot, but is that an indication that the game can continue.

It is criminal for a pro side to switch off as I am told we did. That is the main thing I would take from the incident. 

The presence of physios on the pitch does not prevent a quick penalty. Watson not quite off the pitch does not prevent a quick penalty being taken. 

However there is an issue with the water carriers (other than being an utter abomination). They are only allowed to come on with the ref's permission and when there is a break in play. Play is only allowed to restart when the ref indicates. Similar with the replacement which can only happen in a break of play. If the 4th official had alerted the ref to the replacement it must be allowed to happen.

Thus the only reason that the quick tap should have been allowed is if the ref had not actually signalled a break in play and given water carriers permission to come on. I suspect that like England the ref switched off too and then panicked.

All in all though I refer to the first comment I made. England seem to have switched off. Hopefully they learn from this.

There was definitely a break in play as the ref was watching the replay of the knock on, Heinz went down during the break, presumably feeling dizzy or something, the meds were on to treat him during the break, not during active play, likewise the water carriers. Youngs was on the touchline waiting for the refs permission to come on.

I didn't here the whistle, but with my hearing I am not surprised, but what the hell is the ref restarting play for with all the m=non playing people on the pitch and in the middle of a player coming on when another player is going off for a HIA.

As I said in an earlier post, the ref had a shocker.

[Yoda]

I think by getting bogged down on one bit of play then we've missed the point of the warm ups. Eddy is quite rightly giving main players a rest and will probably, with no offence intended to USA and Georgia and Tonga, using those games as as the real warmup games. These test matches are being used to try out different responses to scenarios that may occur. A hooker to cover back row, a second row at 6, squad players with little experience like piers Francis, mocconnicie, Ludlum and big Joe incase front line first choice are unavailable through injury etc. One suspects that the Italy game will see us starting to run through attacking set plays etc.

[maestegmafia]

These test matches are being used to try out different responses to scenarios that may occur.

I think most fans would agree with that point same applies for both teams. This wasn’t a normal game this was a live all action training run with plenty of aggression. Good defensive work by both teams.

Hopefully we got what we needed out of it going forward.

[Yoda]

Agreed, for most of the match both teams negated the other and turned down kickable penalties. Both teams seemed to keep the ball in play for longer? Could be wrong but could this have been an agreement to test fitness to the max? Long shot I know. It was also telling that there was no real set piece plays from both teams apart from heinz's cheeky little grubber through blind for big Joe to chase. I'm really surprised Biggar didn't keep peppering kicks on Joe and daly as well as this would have worked all day long.

[Collapse2005]

Id say it was more a case of both teams realising there isnt much to be gained from kicking to goal in games like this. You get much more from practicing/testing the set piece even if you arent using specific moves

[mikey_dragon]

Did not see the game.

Wales scored the only try of the game, and it was a really good try.

[majesticimperialman]

Did not see the game.

Wales scored the only try of the game, and it was a really good try.

Agree mikey it was a good try. But in my opinion a try that should not have been allowed to stand.

[mikey_dragon]

Did not see the game.

Wales scored the only try of the game, and it was a really good try.

Agree mikey it was a good try. But in my opinion a try that should not have been allowed to stand.

Eh. If it was a good try then there no way it should have not stood.

[maestegmafia]

Did not see the game.

Wales scored the only try of the game, and it was a really good try.

Agree mikey it was a good try. But in my opinion a try that should not have been allowed to stand.

Why on earth not?

Matt Dawson made a career out of taking penalties when the opposition were sitting on their hands..

Madge it’s about time you congratulated the opposition on using initiative, skill and precision.

It’s only a friendly warm up game, England will learn more from their glaring errors in defence and be a better team for it..!

[Rugby Fan]

Did not see the game.

Wales scored the only try of the game, and it was a really good try.

Agree mikey it was a good try. But in my opinion a try that should not have been allowed to stand.

Why on earth not?

Matt Dawson made a career out of taking penalties when the opposition were sitting on their hands..

Madge it’s about time you congratulated the opposition on using initiative, skill and precision.

It’s only a friendly warm up game, England will learn more from their glaring errors in defence and be a better team for it..!

I have no complaints about the try, largely because I'd want it to stand if we had scored it.

[maestegmafia]

Did not see the game.

Wales scored the only try of the game, and it was a really good try.

Agree mikey it was a good try. But in my opinion a try that should not have been allowed to stand.

Why on earth not?

Matt Dawson made a career out of taking penalties when the opposition were sitting on their hands..

Madge it’s about time you congratulated the opposition on using initiative, skill and precision.

It’s only a friendly warm up game, England will learn more from their glaring errors in defence and be a better team for it..!

I have no complaints about the try, largely because I'd want it to stand if we had scored it.

An excellent point...! Quick thinking and ingenuity is great when it works for you, not so when it goes against you

[No 7&1/2]

I suppose the only argument against it would be teams would be less inclined to make subs for hia checks if they know that the ref is going to play on.it should be out of the teams hands but we've seen coaches play loosely with those rules. As per what LT said doesn't seen to be considered in the laws currently.

[maestegmafia]

I suppose the only argument against it would be teams would be less inclined to make subs for hia checks if they know that the ref is going to play on.it should be out of the teams hands but we've seen coaches play loosely with those rules. As per what LT said doesn't seen to be considered in the laws currently.

Either way the try stands. I agree with your point about HIA checks. But all we were waiting for was a yellow carded player to leave the field. England turned their backs and were caught with their pants down..!

A good lesson for them going into the RWC.

[No 7&1/2]

I've already said its within the rules. I think that its valid to ask whether it should be considered by world rugby

[robbo277]

I have no issue with the yellow card. I think Watson misread in defence, shot a hand out to stop the ball and then subsequently wrapped or attempted to wrap the arm to make it look like it was in the tackle.

I have no issue with Wales taking the penalty when Watson and the water carries still on the pitch. If time is on that have to get off the pitch as quickly as possible without interfering with play.

I have a bit of an issue with the referee restarting play while a player was down injured, I think that's an error. But it's only getting scrutiny because Wales executed a well taken try after it, as a stand alone event it is no greater than the other errors the referee made throughout the game- to the benefit of both sides.

Ultimately, it's a lack of ref management by England. I can't recall if Ford (not the regular captain) went over to the ref with Watson to listen in but as soon as the referee binned him Ford should have pointed out that we had a player down. This would have allowed us to make the sub and also just reorganise generally.

Although the difference on the scoreboard was 7 points, this incident isn't why we lost the game. A lack of continuity in attack cost us far more.

[LordDowlais]

I was reading this thread yesterday, after a boozy day in Cardiff, and there is no wonder that this place is on it's knees.

Anyway, after watching the game on Saturday, it looked to me that the loss the week before really benefitted Wales, you see, for me, it looked as though we had learned a lesson, instead of trying to take the English forwards on at their own game, we were putting the ball in the air a lot more, moving their big lads around the pitch and taking their physicality out of the game.

Over the two games, I really think that Wales had made the most of their time. England tried the same tactics again in Cardiff, they did not try and do anything differently, what have they learned ? Well, I would say nothing, unless they did not know they had big strong forwards before hand.....

Wales had to do something different, they were more or less forced to. Also, when is an English back going to score a try ? It's only the forwards who seem to be doing anything.

Now, all this nonsense about the ref.... come on at Twickenham, England had carte blanche at the breakdown, nothing was said about that, it's all swings and roundabouts.

So to summarise, of the two games, I think Wales would have taken the most out of them. As we played two very different styles. It will be interesting to see how we approach the game against Ireland next, but I am also interested to see if England will still adopt the forward orientated style next Saturday against Ireland, or will they try something different ?

[robbo277]

Not sure how worried Eddie will be about the backline, considering England scored 24 tries in the Six Nations, 16 in the backs, 7 in the forwards and 1 penalty try. The next best team was 14.

More of a concern will be the back row/forward pack not securing enough of our own ball. Too many promising attacks were snuffed out too easily by a turnover at the breakdown.

Wales did adapt to England, when they went wide they dragged the ball a lot deeper before the wide passes came in to try and get round the press defence. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it lead to them being tackled further behind the gain line.

England in attack look to have added offloading forwards to their armoury and it's something they've been looking for more the last couple of weeks. It's not something we really did much of in the Six Nations, and in that respect Jones will be pleased to have given it a go in a match situation.

[Rugby Fan]

From the Telegraph:

Eddie Jones believes that Test rugby has evolved into a hybrid of American football and soccer over the past 12 months, a trend that he believes will place a great onus on pace, power and tactical kicking at Rugby World Cup 2019.

Such a shift, comprising longer passages of “unstructured” play, has contributed to selection reassessments in certain positions over the latter part of this four-year cycle.

Prioritising the speed of Elliot Daly and Anthony Watson at full-back over the experience of Mike Brown has been one result of England head coach’s logic.

“Brown is a great full-back.” said Jones last week. “He is a great defensive full-back, but we feel, the way we want to play, we need a full-back who can attack and with pace. Fortunately for us, Daly and Watson are our best options.

“The game keeps on changing. I see this game now where it is basically a mixture of NFL and soccer. You have got the first three phases that are basically all power and precision. Then you have the kick-return game which then becomes football.

“That sort of analogy for us came clear in the last 12 months and that’s why we’ve gone to having a more X-factor type full-back who can be more commanding in that more unstructured rugby.”

Daly, who started the 13-6 defeat against Wales yesterday and was bombarded by high balls from Dan Biggar in the early exchanges, estimated that the international game is now at a split of “65 per cent unstructured to 35 per cent structured”. While there are generally fewer opportunities to launch first-phase moves, a set-piece platform remains so valuable that carefully-choreographed shapes – akin to offensive plays in NFL – are drilled meticulously.

Jones also highlighted the influence of centre Henry Slade, “a 13 who can kick, run and pass”, as England aim to manipulate back-field defences and find space by putting boot to ball. Grubbers, dinks and chips were prominent weapons as they amassed 24 tries during the 2019 Six Nations.

The composition of England’s back row is another interesting consideration. The candidates are undoubtedly working hard. Jones revealed that Billy Vunipola had “run 300 metres further than he ever has in a game” during the 33-19 win over Wales at Twickenham last Sunday.

Confirming that Tom Curry and Courtney Lawes would be seen as potential blindside flankers in Japan, but that Maro Itoje would remain at lock, Jones suggested that the back row would be altered according to England’s opponents. Teaming up Curry and Sam Underhill, for example, might be problematic against a team with more than two specialist lineout jumpers.

“We played against Wales the last four years and we averaged five lineouts a game, so the lineout it is not significant factor against them.

“But we played New Zealand in November they schooled us in the second half in the lineout. They had [Scott] Barrett, [Kieran] Read, [Sam] Whitelock, [Brodie] Retallick and we couldn’t win the ball.

“They had four jumpers and I think we lost five line-outs and it probably cost us the game. Against New Zealand we have to have a jumping back rower. They are a huge kicking team.”

Speaking of the All Blacks, Jones is convinced that Steve Hansen’s reigning world champions have room to improve following an indifferent Rugby Championship that produced a sole win from three matches before their thrashing of Australia on Saturday.

Combining Richie Mo’unga and Beauden Barrett in the same backline, for instance, may bring benefits down the line.

“Look at [their results] before they won the [2011 and 2015] World Cups,” Jones said. “Before, they would go absolutely balls out in the Tri-Nations. Now they have learned this period is about crafting a game and crafting your players to have the discipline to play a number of ways.

“When you get to a World Cup, you can’t just play one way. With the analysis that goes into a World Cup, if you are really good at playing one way you will get it taken away from you. So, you have got to be able to adapt and these games are about adapting.”

There is still time for England to add variety. In naming his 31-man squad around a month before World Rugby’s deadline of September 8, Jones has aimed to “minimise the noise”, adding that external distractions may have been possible because “the media is more powerful [in England] than anywhere else in the world”.

Having said that, fly-half George Ford hinted that humid weather conditions expected in Japan, and simulated during England’s training camp in Italy, could actually enhance the value of a strong kick-chase.

“The thing we noticed most in Treviso was how the humidity affected the sweatiness and the greasiness of the ball,” Ford said. “It was like playing in wet weather sometimes, and sometimes in wet weather you are better off without the ball.

“You’ve got to quickly understand when it is going to be like that and how difficult it is potentially going to be to keep the ball yourself. Again, that might bring the kicking game into play more and having a really, really strong defence. “

On the verge of his third Rugby World Cup to follow personally disappointing editions in 2011 and 2015, scrum-half Ben Youngs pinpointed the rise of “unforgiving” and aggressive defences as a chief development of the past eight years.

“Every side is tactically sound and defences are so good that you need moments in games where an individual does something special. You need people like Jonny [May] and Ant Watson to create that spark and make something out of nothing.”

For Youngs, clarity is essential. And if that means falling back on an uncomplicated game-plan, so be it.

“It’s easy to think ‘we need to improve in this area or that area’. Actually, some bits of our game are really good and we want to continue to grow that.

“Our set piece is fantastic – our scrum, our maul dominance, our kick-chase, how we squeeze teams defensively. And we can get even better and that. We want to be world-leading in those areas.

“We can play with the ball, there’s no doubt about that, but I think we are very good at getting it in the right areas before we do that.”

[No 7&1/2]

To answer your question ld an England back scored at Twickenham.

[Yoda]

I was reading this thread yesterday, after a boozy day in Cardiff, and there is no wonder that this place is on it's knees.

Anyway, after watching the game on Saturday, it looked to me that the loss the week before really benefitted  Wales, you see, for me, it looked as though we had learned a lesson, instead of trying to take the English forwards on at their own game, we were putting the ball in the air a lot more, moving their big lads around the pitch and taking their physicality out of the game.

Over the two games, I really think that Wales had made the most of their time. England tried the same tactics again in Cardiff, they did not try and do anything differently, what have they learned ? Well, I would say nothing, unless they did not know they had big strong forwards before hand.....

Wales had to do something different, they were more or less forced to. Also, when is an English back going to score a try ? It's only the forwards who seem to be doing anything.

Now, all this nonsense about the ref.... come on at Twickenham, England had carte blanche at the breakdown, nothing was said about that, it's all swings and roundabouts.

So to summarise, of the two games, I think Wales would have taken the most out of them. As we played two very different styles. It will be interesting to see how we approach the game against Ireland next, but I am also interested to see if England will still adopt the forward orientated style next Saturday against Ireland, or will they try something different ?

Both teams sorted their defense out after a looser game the week before. As for Eng backline not scoring I disagree. Big Joe scored last week, numerous line breaks despite being very inexperienced together. Liam Williams saved your bacon many times last week and josh navidi this weekend after good breaks. There's also the stats from 6 nations where they scored 17 tries and countless others in the previous international period. At least have some facts to back up your claim. If predictability is a criticism you label at England then what is Wales' tactic of hard nosed structured play at all cost on the scale? Don't get me wrong, very effective tactics that definitely wins games but not subtle. There are plenty of other things to criticise us about.

[RiscaGame]

I have no issue with the yellow card. I think Watson misread in defence, shot a hand out to stop the ball and then subsequently wrapped or attempted to wrap the arm to make it look like it was in the tackle.

I have no issue with Wales taking the penalty when Watson and the water carries still on the pitch. If time is on that have to get off the pitch as quickly as possible without interfering with play.

I have a bit of an issue with the referee restarting play while a player was down injured, I think that's an error. But it's only getting scrutiny because Wales executed a well taken try after it, as a stand alone event it is no greater than the other errors the referee made throughout the game- to the benefit of  both sides.

Ultimately, it's a lack of ref management by England. I can't recall if Ford (not the regular captain) went over to the ref with Watson to listen in but as soon as the referee binned him Ford should have pointed out that we had a player down. This would have allowed us to make the sub and also just reorganise generally.

Although the difference on the scoreboard was 7 points, this incident isn't why we lost the game. A lack of continuity in attack cost us far more.

I noticed a few times on Saturday, that the ref didn’t seem to want to be approached by either captain. He certainly seemed quite dismissive of AWJ, when it seemed that AWJ was trying to discuss issues with him.

[robbo277]

I have no issue with the yellow card. I think Watson misread in defence, shot a hand out to stop the ball and then subsequently wrapped or attempted to wrap the arm to make it look like it was in the tackle.

I have no issue with Wales taking the penalty when Watson and the water carries still on the pitch. If time is on that have to get off the pitch as quickly as possible without interfering with play.

I have a bit of an issue with the referee restarting play while a player was down injured, I think that's an error. But it's only getting scrutiny because Wales executed a well taken try after it, as a stand alone event it is no greater than the other errors the referee made throughout the game- to the benefit of  both sides.

Ultimately, it's a lack of ref management by England. I can't recall if Ford (not the regular captain) went over to the ref with Watson to listen in but as soon as the referee binned him Ford should have pointed out that we had a player down. This would have allowed us to make the sub and also just reorganise generally.

Although the difference on the scoreboard was 7 points, this incident isn't why we lost the game. A lack of continuity in attack cost us far more.

I noticed a few times on Saturday, that the ref didn’t seem to want to be approached by either captain. He certainly seemed quite dismissive of AWJ, when it seemed that AWJ was trying to discuss issues with him.

It's worth bringing up even if you get told to go away I think. The referee shouldn't be ignoring a head injury so you need to point it out. It's different if the penalty is awarded and they tap and go quickly, but time was off. I think a more experienced captain gets the game stopped at that point.

But yeah, full credit to Wales for spotting that it was on and executing as they did.

[SecretFly]

I noticed a few times on Saturday, that the ref didn’t seem to want to be approached by either captain. He certainly seemed quite dismissive of AWJ, when it seemed that AWJ was trying to discuss issues with him.

The guy isn't interested in Eastenders!  I wish AWJ would give over about f**king Phil Mitchell.  Not everyone watches the bloody show!  Not every ref gives a Schidt about the gossip coming out of the Queen Vic!
Just play fecking rugby AWJ!  Stop annoying refs with Eastenders Schidt.

[Pie]

I noticed a few times on Saturday, that the ref didn’t seem to want to be approached by either captain. He certainly seemed quite dismissive of AWJ, when it seemed that AWJ was trying to discuss issues with him.

The guy isn't interested in Eastenders!  I wish AWJ would give over about f**king Phil Mitchell.  Not everyone watches the bloody show!  Not every ref gives a Schidt about the gossip coming out of the Queen Vic!
Just play fecking rugby AWJ!  Stop annoying refs with Eastenders Schidt.

[maestegmafia]

Poor 1/2P - apparently he had done a heavy fitness shesh on Friday then leg weights and a bike session on Saturday morning. Then had to play 80 minutes in the afternoon!

I read in the News that he felt like his legs were made of lead, could hardly walk pre match. He did very well once he got into the game and run off the gym.

Hope to see him in the reckoning vs Ireland

[Cyril]

Has Biggar been cited? I’ve not heard anything.

[No 7&1/2]

A back on a forward is not going to be cited. Awkward as it was it was only ever going to be a yellow card at the very most as well.

[Cyril]

Shouldn’t make any difference.

[RiscaGame]

I found it interesting to hear Sam Warburton thought red card. No accusations of being biased against him there

[robbo277]

Poor 1/2P - apparently he had done a heavy fitness shesh on Friday then leg weights and a bike session on Saturday morning. Then had to play 80 minutes in the afternoon!

Tried playing after a heavy session on Friday a couple of times, would not recommend.

Oh, fitness session? Can't relate, sorry.

[RiscaGame]

[majesticimperialman]

So Eddie Jones say Wales are favourites for the Rugby World Cup.

Hmmm a bit tongue in cheek from Eddie Jones i think.

Still it would be good to see how Wales go from now on, and how long they can hold on to the number one slot.

Good luck to you and see how you stand after the Rugby World Cup.

[mikey_dragon]

In was just thinking that we’re doing pretty well lately, considering that Evans, Lee, Hill, Faletau, Tipuric, Webb, Anscombe and L Williams were missing. Shingler and Navidi were also out up until the 2nd half of this most recent game. Why there was so much fuss over the 2nd and 3rd team for England myth, and no mention of our guys missing I don’t know. Well done Wales, No.1 team in world rugby.

[Cyril]

Eddie is good value for the media, I’ll give him that!

[bluestonevedder]

Finally got around to watching the game last night and thought I'd throw in my two cents. I haven't had a chance to re-read all of the comments on this thread so apologies if I repeat a few things.

- Firstly, well done Wales. Heck of a defensive performance and a huge change from the previous week at Twickenham. I'm not sure many teams would have broken through that defensive line

- The atmosphere was again, electric. The Principality is an absolute fortress and I don't think any visiting team is a favourite now

- I thought Navidi was excellent and should start for Wales

- England's backrow just did not work for me. We were constantly turned over and they seemed slow in comparison. Lawes had a great game but is not a 6

- Wales' try was extremely well taken, though I question the circumstance considering physios were on, Watson was still on the pitch, etc

- Moriarty got away with at least two extremely questionable tackles on BV, which on review, could have easily been red. Got to admit, not a fan of him at all

- Thought Halfpenny played well despite his early drop, and especially considering he was a late sub and had done a heavy leg session the day previous

- England's scrum looked decent and Cole finally showed his worth again

- Daly is not a fullback. Please, please, please can we end this experiment now

- I think Biggar is a better FH than Ansombe for Wales

[TightHEAD]

Did not see the game.

Funny that as the TMO missed it too!

These games bring out so much passion in us all, what a truly wonderful sport we have.

[lostinwales]

I was reading this thread yesterday, after a boozy day in Cardiff, and there is no wonder that this place is on it's knees.

Anyway, after watching the game on Saturday, it looked to me that the loss the week before really benefitted  Wales, you see, for me, it looked as though we had learned a lesson, instead of trying to take the English forwards on at their own game, we were putting the ball in the air a lot more, moving their big lads around the pitch and taking their physicality out of the game.

Over the two games, I really think that Wales had made the most of their time. England tried the same tactics again in Cardiff, they did not try and do anything differently, what have they learned ? Well, I would say nothing, unless they did not know they had big strong forwards before hand.....

Wales had to do something different, they were more or less forced to. Also, when is an English back going to score a try ? It's only the forwards who seem to be doing anything.

Now, all this nonsense about the ref.... come on at Twickenham, England had carte blanche at the breakdown, nothing was said about that, it's all swings and roundabouts.

So to summarise, of the two games, I think Wales would have taken the most out of them. As we played two very different styles. It will be interesting to see how we approach the game against Ireland next, but I am also interested to see if England will still adopt the forward orientated style next Saturday against Ireland, or will they try something different ?

Both teams sorted their defense out after a looser game the week before. As for Eng backline not scoring I disagree. Big Joe scored last week, numerous line breaks despite being very inexperienced together. Liam Williams saved your bacon many times last week and josh navidi this weekend after good breaks. There's also the stats from 6 nations where they scored 17 tries and countless others in the previous international period. At least have some facts to back up your claim. If predictability is a criticism you label at England then what is Wales' tactic of hard nosed structured play at all cost on the scale? Don't get me wrong, very effective tactics  that definitely wins games but not subtle. There are plenty of other things to criticise us about.

So Wales have run an almost 1st team into the ground 2 weekends running and lost their starting no.10 (although many would have Biggar there instead anyway). England have tried a number of new players and run a very makeshift back row. Things that didn't work and not always as creative as we'd like but one moderately controversial try away from a handsome win at home and a draw away. I don't thik there is much to have been gained about the final England team that will go to the RWC, but I for one am happy with where England are right now.

[Pie]

Extraordinary when you think Eddie, clearly panicking, unleaded his super bench with 25 to go and they still couldn't make it happen...1 solitary try??

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