England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

First topic message reminder :

Mirroring the thread I did for Wales, England have had huge strength in depth for the last 9 years or so. Under Lancaster it seemed to be a hindrance as much as a strength, with no-one really leaping out to claim key positions, cycling through the likes of Twelvetrees, Burrell, Barritt etc. in the centre.

Now, it feels like England do have some real test quality players who have grabbed shirts with both hands and are nailed on: the Vunipolas, Tuilagi, Lawes, and latterly players like May, Curry, and Underhill.

With that in mind...who makes England's 31 man squad based on who's fit and available (as well as who's out injured)? If you want to include who you'd personally pick as well that'd be interesting, but who do England fans think will be in that squad in Japan?

Also, who is in the starting 23 and who are the 6-7 reserve players who stand a good chance of a call up?

I've done it for Wales in the Wales thread - think it's looking very settled, with a few first 15 positions up for debate depending on opposition. From the outside England's squad looks a lot less settled or certain.

Squads ten to be:

17-18 forwards
5 Props
2 or 3 Hookers
5 Second rows
5 or 6 Back rowers

13-14 Backs
3 Scrum-halves
2-3 Fly-halves
3 Centres
5 Back 3

So who/what is the current England squad?

In all seriousness, if there are any doubts over Mako's fitness then any chance of Marler being available would be huge.

LondonTiger wrote:Jim Mallinder announces the England squad on Monday.

The game is Sunday isn't it? I would have thought the team would have been together from last week.

I suppose that means Mallinder could in theory pick losing semi-finalists. How much autonomy over selection will he get? Would suggest if Saracens make the final Cipriani might find himself getting a call.

lostinwales wrote:In all seriousness, if there are any doubts over Mako's fitness then any chance of Marler being available would be huge.

Problem is his wife is due to give birth in 10 days and Joe has already indicated he plans to spend the summer with his family. Hard to do that and be in England's training camp.

Confirmed for the Baa-Baas so far:

1. Marler
2.
3. Afoa
4. Luatua
5. Vui
6. Messam
7. Isa
8. Mata
9. Webb
10.
11. Nakosi
12
13. Fekitoa
14.
15. Piutau

Space for them to call up Cipriani too, should Glos not make the final.

robbo277 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Jim Mallinder announces the England squad on Monday.

The game is Sunday isn't it? I would have thought the team would have been together from last week.

I suppose that means Mallinder could in theory pick losing semi-finalists. How much autonomy over selection will he get? Would suggest if Saracens make the final Cipriani might find himself getting a call.

Last year Jones selected a group who came together before the semis, then supplemented it with guys from the losing teams. This year he seems to have washed his hands of the fixture. The article I read about Marler had this to say:

This time, the England XV will be even more vulnerable, as it will be made up of rookies and fringe players who are unlikely to feature in the World Cup training squad to be named on July 4. 

Jones is not even on duty team for the match. Instead, former Northampton head coach Jim Mallinder, now working with the national age-group teams as an employee of the RFU, will be in charge. 

His squad is due to be named on Monday and those chosen face a monumental challenge.

LondonTiger wrote:

lostinwales wrote:In all seriousness, if there are any doubts over Mako's fitness then any chance of Marler being available would be huge.

Problem is his wife is due to give birth in 10 days and Joe has already indicated he plans to spend the summer with his family. Hard to do that and be in England's training camp.

£25k for an England appearance will help any discussion with the coaches. Between the warm-ups and group Stages alone that's a potential £200k.

I was surprised when I heard the rumours of him coming out of retirement and would still be surprised if he did so. The lure of a World Cup and big earnings are pretty considerable though.

king_carlos wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

lostinwales wrote:In all seriousness, if there are any doubts over Mako's fitness then any chance of Marler being available would be huge.

Problem is his wife is due to give birth in 10 days and Joe has already indicated he plans to spend the summer with his family. Hard to do that and be in England's training camp.

£25k for an England appearance will help any discussion with the coaches. Between the warm-ups and group Stages alone that's a potential £200k.

I was surprised when I heard the rumours of him coming out of retirement and would still be surprised if he did so. The lure of a World Cup and big earnings are pretty considerable though.

If it was just a case of rocking up for the games and playing I am sure he would say yes. However reading teh interviews with him it was the training camps both the high pressure attitude within them and the time away from his family that was causing hime mental health issues. Going back into that environment purely for the money may not be the wisest decision.

Someone on here had suggested that he may reconsider in an emergency if arrangements were made that he could stay with his family during camps and tournament away from the team hotel. Not sure that woudl work too well though.

LondonTiger wrote:Someone on here had suggested that he may reconsider in an emergency if arrangements were made that he could stay with his family during camps and tournament away from the team hotel. Not sure that woudl work too well though.

It depends. I would be willing to bet that if you asked the England squad if they would rather have Marler living outside the camp or no Marler, the majority would vote for the former. And if Mako's fitness is a doubt it would be pretty unanimous. A happy Marler is a big asset to any team. It's unusual, but an RWC is an exceptional circumstance.

LondonTiger wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Jim Mallinder announces the England squad on Monday.

The game is Sunday isn't it? I would have thought the team would have been together from last week.

I suppose that means Mallinder could in theory pick losing semi-finalists. How much autonomy over selection will he get? Would suggest if Saracens make the final Cipriani might find himself getting a call.

Last year Jones selected a group who came together before the semis, then supplemented it with guys from the losing teams. This year he seems to have washed his hands of the fixture. The article I read about Marler had this to say:

This time, the England XV will be even more vulnerable, as it will be made up of rookies and fringe players who are unlikely to feature in the World Cup training squad to be named on July 4. 

Jones is not even on duty team for the match. Instead, former Northampton head coach Jim Mallinder, now working with the national age-group teams as an employee of the RFU, will be in charge. 

His squad is due to be named on Monday and those chosen face a monumental challenge.

So basically the Saxons at an full England ticket price, albeit not as much as a full test.

I guess then it would be nice to know whether Eddie has restricted the squad at all or let Mallinder have a free reign. E.g. a player like Jonny May will be available but as England player of the year he probably doesn't have much left to prove in a fixture like this. Marler against Sinckler could be fun too.

Either way, it will be a big test for a fringe England team, based on the team the Barbarians have selected.

LondonTiger wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

lostinwales wrote:In all seriousness, if there are any doubts over Mako's fitness then any chance of Marler being available would be huge.

Problem is his wife is due to give birth in 10 days and Joe has already indicated he plans to spend the summer with his family. Hard to do that and be in England's training camp.

£25k for an England appearance will help any discussion with the coaches. Between the warm-ups and group Stages alone that's a potential £200k.

I was surprised when I heard the rumours of him coming out of retirement and would still be surprised if he did so. The lure of a World Cup and big earnings are pretty considerable though.

If it was just a case of rocking up for the games and playing I am sure he would say yes. However reading teh interviews with him it was the training camps both the high pressure attitude within them and the time away from his family that was causing hime mental health issues. Going back into that environment purely for the money may not be the wisest decision.

Someone on here had suggested that he may reconsider in an emergency if arrangements were made that he could stay with his family during camps and tournament away from the team hotel. Not sure that woudl work too well though.

Could be our Stephen Donald then, but probably not going to be called up to the initial squad.

Talk about depth just catching up on the Saracens game. Tomkins on and just looks a class act. I think he's a country mile better than lozowski but he's likely to go further down the pecking order with Daly arriving. Has been playing a bit of 12. Too many options.

I just don't get Marler. He is a typical example of someone who needs education in every sense. Watching him on H o R you just get the feeling he is dim; the sort who ridicules people who aren't for their knowledge and lacks the self awareness to recognize just how dim he is.

I thought the mods had stated they were stamping down on the type of posting like the above from Pie. Anybody? No answers on the ‘future of the site’ thread.

Cyril wrote:I thought the mods had stated they were stamping down on the type of posting like the above from Pie. Anybody? No answers on the ‘future of the site’ thread.

Wow, Constable Cyril someone's got lots to do on a Saturday

Stop taking everything sooooo seriously

Stop derailing every thread and insulting everyone then. It’s making this place impossible.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment Cyril, why not complain about the post? You can’t expect a mod to monitor every thread.

Cyril wrote:Stop derailing every thread and insulting everyone then. It’s making this place impossible.

Cyril advice coming from you in this vein is frankly hilarious and since only you seem to be getting upset, it isn't derailed whatsoever by anyone except you and your ridiculously dramatic over reacting!

This place is impossible because over the offense culture that is as endemic on here as it is in society in general

This is a forum. One man's feast another's famine

That is all

Risca, the mods don’t seem to respond to the ‘future of the forum’ thread either. Fair enough though, i’ll just report him. It doesn’t appear that any promised improvements are being made.

Well I've managed to pick up a ban and another warning responding to wums from maes so there are some changes.

Pie - you may have been joking but I've edited your post given it wasn't an overly complimentary thing to say about s certain group of posters (and I don't think they would have seen it as s joke!)

Cyril - not sure what you're on about on the Futures thread as I've pretty much responded to every question. Also, for the thousandth time - just because you don't see moderating it doesn't mean it isn't happening. There have been numerous warnings (which will lead to final warning then ban if it continues). The warnings have been to multiple posters representing pretty much all the nationalities on here. Seeing everything from the inside like I do I can 100% say the forum is in a much better place than during the 6N - yes it's not perfect, but if people stopped wumming then we wouldn't have to try and intervene.

RiscaGame wrote:Whilst I agree with your sentiment Cyril, why not complain about the post? You can’t expect a mod to monitor every thread.

This is very pertinent. While this issue was eventually noticed, we are not constantly reading everything. As soon as attention was drawn action happened.

So back to the matter at hand. Does the two huge performances from Itoje at 6 v Leinster and Glaws make it more likely that they may look to cover back row from second row resources when the 31 are eventually named?

Theres less issue with itoje starting at 6 if we have curry and to a less extent Underhill at 7 as it's a nicer balance. I'd have no qualms about that being cover.

There's a big difference between playing 6 at club level and playing it at International level. Itoje has been tried there and it didn't work.

How good is Kvesic....

Poorfour wrote:There's a big difference between playing 6 at club level and playing it at International level. Itoje has been tried there and it didn't work.

Not saying he should or would start there. Just suggesting that in a 31 man squad certain comprises have to be made. It may be that to open up specialist spots elsewhere they accept that Itoje and Lawes can cover back row in an emergency thus allowing Eddie to reduce his specialist back row cover.

Yup. Wouldn't be enthralled should he be first choice given the other options in noticed I'd prefer shields robshaw Underhill Wilson as the 6 however should itoje be there for cover he can do the job better with curry and indeed vunipola than robshaw itoje Hughes though I accept lawes was wearing 6 in some of those despite playing lock imo.

Kvesic is the nearly man ain't he. Played really well for Glaws when Lancaster was around got a half chance in Argentina but like wade never got his chance. He's well down the list now for 7 8 and utility. I'd love to know What the current and past England coaches told him to improve though.

If Curry and Underhill got injured I'd take Kvesic at 7 over Shields.

It will be interesting to see how Robshaw performs in the warm-ups. I rate him a better player than Shields who is yet to do too much at international level.

Back row is tough to call though. I can't see Hughes being left out as it makes it difficult to rest/rotate Billy V. If the final squad has 5 back rows in it then Hughes would be a lot of peoples pick to miss out however.

3 people have to go: vunipola curry Underhill. I'm easy on the rest.

Wilson has nailed down a spot as well. Especially in a RWC squad given his versatility. Jones has started him at 6/7/8 plus he can cover second row.

He has also been excellent for England since claiming a starting berth.

He got the jump on shields due yo injury but shields was covering 2nd row in 6 nations as well. Robshaw will probably make it. Not a huge fan of Wilson but he'll do. Excellent, not seen it myself.

Wilson has played better than Shields for England. I would be surprised if both Curry and Underhill stay fit all the way through to the RWC, given their history. I doubt Eddie will look at Kvesic this late in the day. I don't know what international coaches think he's lacking, but it's likely to be some of the unseen stuff.

A lot depends on who Eddie takes into the training camp and how many he breaks while they are there...

Poorfour wrote:A lot depends on who Eddie takes into the training camp and how many he breaks while they are there...

Sadly this is very true. Taking the 6 Nations squad and adding the main returnees you get:

LH - Mako, Moon, Genge, Hepburn
Hooker - George, Hartley, LCD, Singleton
TH - Sinckler, Williams, Cole
Lock - Itoje, Lawes, Kruis, Launchbury, Ewels, Isiekwe
Back row - Vunipola, Wilson, Curry, Underhill, Robshaw, Shields, Clifford, Earl
Scrum-half - Youngs, Robson, Care, Spencer, Wigglesworth
Fly-half - Farrell, Ford, Cipriani
Centre - Tuilagi, Slade, Te'o, Joseph, Devoto
Back three - May, Daly, Nowell, Cokanasiga, Brown, Watson, Ashton, Thorley

Those in bold are currently injured from my knowledge. Several others are also returning from injuries and yet to prove they are over them.

That’s 45, which is a fairly typical size for an initial training camp. The interesting question is whether anyone else gets a look in because of the injured players.

Robson is a fringe player, but the other four are all but certain to be in the final squad if fit. Eddie may (read will) recall Marler if he can persuade him to do it, and Lozowski or Francis might get a look in for the centre slot, but any replacement hooker or scrum half will be worryingly inexperienced.

At the moment Robson seems to be the form 9 and with his kicking game would suit England's style, I would currently have him at 2nd choice ahead of Care, Spencer and Wigglesworth.

Robson has played a grand total of 30 minutes of international rugby, 19 of them against Italy, and hasn’t played since February because of deep vein thrombosis.

Under those unfortunate circumstances, it’s a bit premature to call him the form 9.

Form 9 has to be Spencer. Kicking is now up there with Wigglesworth, consistently provides a running threat, good delivery and plays with Farrell. I wouldn't be surprised should he start let alone be second choice behind youngs. Tough on Robson but Spencer has taken his injury opportunity.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:At the moment Robson seems to be the form 9 and with his kicking  game would suit England's style, I would currently have him at 2nd choice ahead of Care, Spencer and Wigglesworth.

Does Robson have a kicking game?

Spencer for me is the form 9.

Robson needs to get back on the pitch first, and his health is the first priority. He should not be on any of these lists

EDIT: Deleted the post due to catastrophic formatting issues from lazy copy and pasting!

Baabaas Facebook Page wrote:Backs
Mark Atkinson
Malakai Fekitoa
Brock James
Taqele Naiyaravoro
Filipo Nakosi
Charles Piutau
Niyi Adeolokun
Colin Slade
Rhys Webb
Rhodri Williams

Forwards
John Afoa
Finlay Bealham
David Heffernan
Richard Hibbard
James Horwill
Facundo Isa
Francois Louw
Steven Luatua
Joe Marler
Viliame Mata
Liam Messam
Pierre Schoeman
Chris Vui

You can make quite a squad out of those 23:

1.Marler 2.Hibbard 3.Afoa 4.Vui 5.Horwill 6.Luatau 7.Louw 8.Mata
9.Webb 10.Slade 11.Naiyaravoro 12.Atkinson 13.Fekitoa 14.Adeolokun 15.Piutau

16.Heffernan 17.Schoeman 18.Bealham 19.Messam 20.Isa 21.Williams 22.James 23.Nakosi

England XV squad

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)
Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby)
Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Ehren Painter (Northampton Saints)
Will Spencer (Leicester Tigers)
Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby)
Tommy Taylor (Wasps)

Backs

Josh Bassett (Wasps)
Simon Hammersley (Newcastle Falcons)
Ben Loader (London Irish)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints)
Piers O’Conor (Bristol Bears)
Callum Sheedy (Bristol Bears)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
Ben White (Leicester Tigers)
Johnny Williams (Newcastle Falcons)

Rugby Fan wrote:England XV squad
 
Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)
Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby)
Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)  
Ehren Painter (Northampton Saints)
Will Spencer (Leicester Tigers)
Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby)
Tommy Taylor (Wasps)

Backs

Josh Bassett (Wasps)
Simon Hammersley (Newcastle Falcons)
Ben Loader (London Irish)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints)
Piers O’Conor (Bristol Bears)
Callum Sheedy (Bristol Bears)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
Ben White (Leicester Tigers)
Johnny Williams (Newcastle Falcons)

1.Harrison 2.Taylor 3.Hill 4.Stooke 5.Spencer 6.Dombrandt 7.Curry 8.Harrison
9.Mitchell 10.Smith 11.Basset 12.William 13.Marchant 14.Loader 15.Hammersley

16.Dunn 17.Obano 18.Painter 19.Beaumont 20.Ellis 21.White 22.Sheedy 23.O'Conor

Something like that possible then. Mix and match the names as you wish but this could get messy for the England XV.

It's a strong Baabaas squad with much more experience so they should gel together quicker than the England youngsters.

Well that looks as if none of the players likely to be in Summer Training squad have been named.

Would have loved to see Thacker running out for the Barbarians. Not that much would have been learned as frankly men in  black & white should steam roller the boys in white.

That England squad are going to get punked. I know that they are looking at fringe players, but surely there needs to be some experience?

It is sad, because individually there are some good players in there, but to face up against the quality and experience that the Barbarians have is asking a lot

The front-row is potentially decent. Harrison is finally getting some recognition, he has been one of the most consistent and durable players in the premiership over the last five years. He also has experience of playing in a pack under pressure (which may be useful!). Obano was starting to win rave reviews before he his nasty injury. Hill has England caps, but seems to have gone backwards at a rate of knots since he burst onto the scene. He is still only very young for a prop though. My recollections of Painter is that he is huge, but (as you would expect from a 21 year old prop) soft.

The Second Row is potentially solid and workmanlike, they are not going to let anyone down but won't particularly stand out.

The back-row is interesting. I wonder if Dobrandt is in there as a no.8 (although probably Harrison). There is a decent (and balanced) combination among the available players. Ellis has done a good job of turning himself from a lock into a blindside flanker in the more traditional mould. Lets see what the other Curry can do!

It is good to see some alternative players in the scrum half position.

A potentially exciting centre paring too, I am glad the haven't named Te'o. With those two and Smith pulling the strings we might see some exciting running rugby (assuming the pack can secure any front foot ball at all).

Has Sheedy been picked to annoy the Welsh/Irish?

I don't know much about Bassett, O'Connor or Loader (the former has been injured for a while?)

Hammersley gets a crack at the (an) England team the minute he leaves us.

There’s not a lot of experience in the squad, but if we assume that any fit contender for the actual squad is off limits, there’s a lot of potential there.

The pack are a combination of players who have been around the squad - Obano, Taylor, Hill, Beaumont, Harrison - and those with real potential in the next RWC cycle, Dombrandt in particular.

The core of the backs is the Smith-Williams-Marchant combination, which has some real potential. Wiiliams and Marchant made a good pairing at U20, and Smith and Marchant are used to playing together at Quins.

They should be well suited to a BaaBaas style game. Against a defence that won’t be that well organised, Smith should be able to find a few spaces to put people through. I would expect the vastly more experienced Barbarians to win, but with high scores on both sides.

Whts peoples thoughts on Devoto.

Hes another who seems to be developing his game quietly. Hes running the ball hard and direct and has the skill for offloads etc.

Poorfour wrote:There’s not a lot of experience in the squad, but if we assume that any fit contender for the actual squad is off limits, there’s a lot of potential there.

The pack are a combination of players who have been around the squad - Obano, Taylor, Hill, Beaumont, Harrison - and those with real potential in the next RWC cycle, Dombrandt in particular.

The core of the backs is the Smith-Williams-Marchant combination, which has some real potential. Wiiliams and Marchant made a good pairing at U20, and Smith and Marchant are used to playing together at Quins.

They should be well suited to a BaaBaas style game. Against a defence that won’t be that well organised, Smith should be able to find a few spaces to put people through. I would expect the vastly more experienced Barbarians to win, but with high scores on both sides.

I am actually going to this game next weekend so am thoroughly looking forward to an excellent afternoon of tries, no matter who scores them. The Red Roses are also playing so 2 games for the price of one. Looking forward to lots and lots of running rugby!

Yes, my (rugby playing) daughter and I are going on the basis of wanting to see the first Red Roses Vs Barbarians game, but I am now looking forward to the men's game as I think it will be quite a show.