Brexit

First topic message reminder :

Duty281 wrote:So a good day for the Prime Minister, at last. Motion carried and some pesky amendments defeated.

Yes folks a good day for the PM is telling the Country over 50 times in the Commons the UK is leaving on the 29th March and then winning an extension..

What a low bar..

No Deal is one step closer to death after opposition MP's agreed a course of action to attempt to block it.

Its likely they'll request an emergency debate to table legislation and request a cancellation of the September conference recess.  We could see the motion called for as early as next Tuesday.

Theres also the option of a No Confidence vote with a temporary government put in charge.  This seems to have gained more ground as Corbyn appears to be warming to the idea of stepping back from insisting he become temporary PM - which will win over a few Tory rebels.

We at Plaid Cymru are doing everything possible to stop the disastrous No Deal Brexit for Wales

No one really wants that clown Corbyn in charge of Westminster but if getting him in to stop Brexit happening then it needs to be done

That being said if Brexit leads to the break up of the UK it will be all worthwhile

So the 2019 Churchill (He was an over-rated..racist..misogynist too) is attempting to pro rogue Parliament...Bless him..

All it is about folks...Boris trying to imitate the bald...Whisky sipping PM that FDR ended up ignoring because he was an embarrassment.

End in tears... It did for Emperor Claudius who Boris seems to be a descendant of...

Emperor Nero... "Mushrooms must be the food of the Gods...Because Claudius ate one and became one"

I would criticise BJ for attempting to prorogue Parliament, but I fear being told I'm demonising him.

Steffan wrote:We at Plaid Cymru are doing everything possible to stop the disastrous No Deal Brexit for Wales

No one really wants that clown Corbyn in charge of Westminster but if getting him in to stop Brexit happening then it needs to be done

That being said if Brexit leads to the break up of the UK it will be all worthwhile

A fellow Plaid voter!

I trust people on this board who claim parliamentary sovereignty is a good reason to vote Brexit are apoplectic about Johnsons attempt at a coup.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Steffan wrote:We at Plaid Cymru are doing everything possible to stop the disastrous No Deal Brexit for Wales

No one really wants that clown Corbyn in charge of Westminster but if getting him in to stop Brexit happening then it needs to be done

That being said if Brexit leads to the break up of the UK it will be all worthwhile

A fellow Plaid voter!

Indeed my fellow comrade. I have been a Plaid voter for years and now a member

Ymlaen

Duty is conspicuous by his absence.

Certainly a People vs Parliament move by Johnson...

Unless the opposition parties agree to work tactically in an upcoming Election current polling suggests he wins comfortably..

It's a hugely divisive move across the country - people and parliament. Clearly he has no intention of bringing any unity.

Steffan wrote:We at Plaid Cymru are doing everything possible to stop the disastrous No Deal Brexit for Wales

No one really wants that clown Corbyn in charge of Westminster but if getting him in to stop Brexit happening then it needs to be done

That being said if Brexit leads to the break up of the UK it will be all worthwhile

Sad that it's come to this sort of comment.

I'd feel the same if I was Scottish or Welsh though. Why stay in this union if England doesn't give a toss about you?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So the 2019 Churchill (He was an over-rated..racist..misogynist too) is attempting to pro rogue Parliament...Bless him..

All it is about folks...Boris trying to imitate the bald...Whisky sipping PM that FDR ended up ignoring because he was an embarrassment.

End in tears... It did for Emperor Claudius who Boris seems to be a  descendant of...

Emperor Nero...  "Mushrooms must be the food of the Gods...Because Claudius ate one and became one"

Over-rated? Nope. Racist and misogynist? He was a man of his times; stop applying 21st Century morals to a man born in the 1800s. Suggest you look at FDR and one of your favourites, Truman, in more depth.

FDR 'ignored' him because of the lack of relative power of Britain at the end of WWII. Then again, we'd been carrying the fight almost alone until mid-'41 and thereafter with the Soviets until America joined in in '44. Yep, I know all about Lend-Lease etc so don't bother. One could make a decent case for the U.S. deliberately bankrupting Britain and its Empire so they wouldn't be a player post-WWII.

Pr4wn wrote:I'd feel the same if I was Scottish or Welsh though. Why stay in this union if England doesn't give a toss about you?

I get it, but very short-sighted. Everyone, I suppose, will be better as tiny entities in a big, wide World as opposed to part of one of the most successful political unions ever? Maybe we should become Federated? What would the SNP do then? Shock! Horror! They'd have to be responsible for their own finances etc. Who would they blame?

Samo wrote:I trust people on this board who claim parliamentary sovereignty is a good reason to vote Brexit are apoplectic about Johnsons attempt at a coup.

Nah. That would require self-awareness and an understanding of irony and hypocrisy.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Certainly a People vs Parliament move by Johnson...

Unless the opposition parties agree to work tactically in an upcoming Election current polling suggests he wins comfortably..

I'd like to hope Her Madge would say "No. Fook awf, you buffoon. I refuse to prorogue Parliament to play your political games". Can't see it though.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:I'd feel the same if I was Scottish or Welsh though. Why stay in this union if England doesn't give a toss about you?

I get it, but very short-sighted. Everyone, I suppose, will be better as tiny entities in a big, wide World as opposed to part of one of the most successful political unions ever? Maybe we should become Federated? What would the SNP do then? Shock! Horror! They'd have to be responsible for their own finances etc. Who would they blame?

Can I suggest that we leave this conversation for another time? It's not like it's a slow news day!

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So the 2019 Churchill (He was an over-rated..racist..misogynist too) is attempting to pro rogue Parliament...Bless him..

All it is about folks...Boris trying to imitate the bald...Whisky sipping PM that FDR ended up ignoring because he was an embarrassment.

End in tears... It did for Emperor Claudius who Boris seems to be a  descendant of...

Emperor Nero...  "Mushrooms must be the food of the Gods...Because Claudius ate one and became one"

Over-rated? Nope. Racist and misogynist? He was a man of his times; stop applying 21st Century morals to a man born in the 1800s. Suggest you look at FDR and one of your favourites, Truman, in more depth..

So everyone was a Racist...Misogynistic bigot..70 years ago

Well you learn something new everyday.

Half of America still is... Which is somewhat ironic considering Churchill himself was half American and Johnson was born there...

Dear me, all this fuss about a Queen's speech to close down Parliament, which has had its longest session for about 350 years. And what are we going to lose? About three days of Parliamentary time. Wow what a loss. It's hardly an event.

If some/most MPs don't want a no-deal Brexit, perhaps they shouldn't have voted for the triggering of article 50. Or maybe they could have voted for the withdrawal agreement. Or maybe they could have done something in the three years they've had since the referendum.

Soul Requiem wrote:Half of America still is... Which is somewhat ironic considering Churchill himself was half American and Johnson was born there...

You know half of America do you ???....

As for the Harry Truman insult on another post.......Think you will find he was the first President to set up a Civil rights commission...LBJ paid tribute to Truman's work when he brought in the Civil rights act of 64.....Which as we all know forbid discrimination on the grounds of Color...Sexual orientation etc...

Not sure Racist...Misogynistic bigots enjoyed the Civil rights bill !!!......Which had Kennedy not been assassinated wouldn't have been brought in...Because Kennedy didn't have Johnson's clout.....LBJ was leader of the House before being VP.

Not that I endorse assasination....Terrible day when JFK was killed......However under LBJ the US got medicare and the 64 Food stamp act which gave millions of poverty stricken families in and out of work access to nutritious food....

Education initiatives that built schools in poorer areas to teach underprivileged kids.........LBJ started out as a Teacher..

The best Man for the job of President at the wrong time was Lyndon.........So much more than Vietnam sadly..

LBJ = Great Man......FDR was his hero and his reason for entering Politics.

Trumps in power so says everything you need to know about the 48% who voted for him.

Truman? First and only world leader to ever authorise a nuclear attack, yes that's the one.

Clinton won the popular vote....

Guess what ???....Many People vote on Party lines.....

Besides the Libertarian and Jill Stein would have picked up millions of votes between them.......So I doubt Trump got 48%....Added to the fact tens of millions didn't vote..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So the 2019 Churchill (He was an over-rated..racist..misogynist too) is attempting to pro rogue Parliament...Bless him..

All it is about folks...Boris trying to imitate the bald...Whisky sipping PM that FDR ended up ignoring because he was an embarrassment.

End in tears... It did for Emperor Claudius who Boris seems to be a  descendant of...

Emperor Nero...  "Mushrooms must be the food of the Gods...Because Claudius ate one and became one"

Over-rated? Nope. Racist and misogynist? He was a man of his times; stop applying 21st Century morals to a man born in the 1800s. Suggest you look at FDR and one of your favourites, Truman, in more depth..

So everyone was a Racist...Misogynistic bigot..70 years ago

Well you learn something new everyday.

Not what I said. Have another go....

Just have.....Read it...Enjoy it....Educate yourself..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Half of America still is... Which is somewhat ironic considering Churchill himself was half American and Johnson was born there...

You know half of America do you ???....

As for the Harry Truman insult on another post.......Think you will find he was the first President to set up a Civil rights commission...LBJ paid tribute to Truman's work when he brought in the Civil rights act of 64.....Which as we all know forbid discrimination on the grounds of Color...Sexual orientation etc...

Not sure Racist...Misogynistic bigots enjoyed the Civil rights bill !!!......Which had Kennedy not been assassinated wouldn't have been brought in...Because Kennedy didn't have Johnson's clout.....LBJ was leader of the House before being VP.

Not that I endorse assasination....Terrible day when JFK was killed......However under LBJ the US got medicare and the 64 Food stamp act which gave millions of poverty stricken families in and out of work access to nutritious food....

Education initiatives that built schools in poorer areas to teach underprivileged kids.........LBJ started out as a Teacher..

The best Man for the job of President at the wrong time was Lyndon.........So much more than Vietnam sadly..

LBJ = Great Man......FDR was his hero and his reason for entering Politics.

Insult to Truman? You related to him? You do know the sort of language he used in casual conversation in the '20s/'30s etc? Unlike you though, I understand it was of its time. Not remotely right, but you can't take things out of their historical context. I like Truman and it's clear he grew with/ahead of the times; the comparison between him and Trump is eye opening.

Soul Requiem wrote:Trumps in power so says everything you need to know about the 48% who voted for him.

Truman? First and only world leader to ever authorise a nuclear attack, yes that's the one.

Suggest you go away and learn about the times/circumstances in which Truman made that decision.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Just have.....Read it...Enjoy it....Educate yourself..

navyblueshorts wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Trumps in power so says everything you need to know about the 48% who voted for him.

Truman? First and only world leader to ever authorise a nuclear attack, yes that's the one.

Suggest you go away and learn about the times/circumstances in which Truman made that decision.

I'm well aware of the circumstances and there is no justification for ever using nuclear weapons against another country.

Hmmmm. Anything happening with Brexit today?

Just our way of getting round to discussing the UK and Japanese post Brexit trade deal..

Suspension approved by Queenie...

Game on.

What game? This is the normal course of events.

Duty281 wrote:What game? This is the normal course of events.

Oh come on, no-one, not even BJ, believes that. Drop the pretence.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:What game? This is the normal course of events.

Oh come on, no-one, not even BJ, believes that. Drop the pretence.

It's normal to close Parliament and have a Queen's Speech every year. It is highly unusual that this session of Parliament has gone on for so long (the longest session of Parliament since 1653).

Oh, in that case the best thing to do when we are nearing the end of the biggest political challenge since WW2 is to shut Parliament down for longer than is necessary. Common sense innit?

This is just a fun old game to some people, eh Duty? Jolly good fun, old chap, yes?

JuliusHMarx wrote:Oh, in that case the best thing to do when we are nearing the end of the biggest political challenge since WW2 is to shut Parliament down for longer than is necessary. Common sense innit?

This is just a fun old game to some people, eh Duty? Jolly good fun, old chap, yes?

We're losing 3/4 days of Parliamentary time. MPs opposed to a no-deal Brexit have had 100s of days to stop a no-deal Brexit - somehow I don't think they would have done something magic in those 3/4 days, either.

All fun and games, dear boy, all fun and games.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:What game? This is the normal course of events.

Oh come on, no-one, not even BJ, believes that. Drop the pretence.

It's normal to close Parliament and have a Queen's Speech every year. It is highly unusual that this session of Parliament has gone on for so long (the longest session of Parliament since 1653).

It's unprecedented for parliament to be prorogued for this long.

And before you mention the conference recess, here's Professor of Government at Cambridge University, Colin Talbot:

"During the conference recess, MPs can still meet in committee, they can demand government papers, they can put down questions to ministers.

"There are a lot of things that can go on in recess that can't go on in prorogation."

The only people who would approve of such a move are those who wish to sacrifice UK jobs, prosperity and international standing, not to mention the union itself, for the sake of a no-deal Brexit, which they consider as being more important. I just wish they had the balls to come out and say it, instead of taking, and approving of, such a cowardly action and then lying about it, in terms of it being 'normal'.

Believing in something and following it through, even ruthlessly, is something I can just about accept, even when I disagree with it. The lying and the pretence simply shows cowardice and moral bankruptcy.

Duty281 wrote:All fun and games, dear boy, all fun and games.

Yep, it is to the juveniles and the cowards.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:What game? This is the normal course of events.

Oh come on, no-one, not even BJ, believes that. Drop the pretence.

It's normal to close Parliament and have a Queen's Speech every year. It is highly unusual that this session of Parliament has gone on for so long (the longest session of Parliament since 1653).

It's unprecedented for parliament to be prorogued for this long.

And before you mention the conference recess, here's Professor of Government at Cambridge University, Colin Talbot:

"During the conference recess, MPs can still meet in committee, they can demand government papers, they can put down questions to ministers.

"There are a lot of things that can go on in recess that can't go on in prorogation."

Yes, I did see what Mr. Talbot said, but of course the main crux for these Remain-MPs is that they can't get through legislation during this time, which wouldn't happen anyway.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:All fun and games, dear boy, all fun and games.

Yep, it is to the juveniles and the cowards.

That's the spirit.

As Heseltine has just said "A government which is frightened of Parliament is frightened of democracy." The cowards are frightened.

JuliusHMarx wrote:As Heseltine has just said "A government which is frightened of Parliament is frightened of democracy." The cowards are frightened.

Nothing says democracy like your unelected head of state shutting down your elected parliament at the behest of the unelected Prime Minister.

Soul Requiem wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:As Heseltine has just said "A government which is frightened of Parliament is frightened of democracy." The cowards are frightened.

I bow to your superior debating skills. You win.

I can't help thinking this is a miscalculation on Johnson's (Cummings's?) part. He has a majority of one, and this is sure to push more Tory MPs to rebel.

(On the other hand, there is a theory that the plan is to force a vote of no-confidence, call a general election, and run on a 'people versus parliament' platform....)

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:(On the other hand, there is a theory that the plan is to force a vote of no-confidence, call a general election, and run on a 'people versus parliament' platform....)

With one 'no. 10 source' reckoning that such a GE could be delayed until early November.

"If MPs pass a vote of no confidence next week, then we'll stay in No10, we won't recommend any alternative government, we'll dissolve parliament and have an election between 1 and 5 November - and that means no time for legislation."

Presumably staying in No 10 for another 8 weeks, after failing a vote of no confidence, and calling a GE for the day after the no-deal Brexit, is perfectly normal - happens all the time.

All fun and games, eh?