Wales v England thread (6 Nations)

[mikey_dragon]

First topic message reminder :

Date: 23rd Feb 2019
Time: 9:45 am (Mountain Time)
Venue: MILLENIUM Stadium, Cardiff
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)


Teams:

Wales: Wales: Liam Williams (Saracens); George North (Ospreys), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Josh Adams (Worcester); Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys, captain), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Aled Davies (Ospreys), Dan Biggar (Northampton), Owen Watkin (Ospreys).


England: Daly; Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Lawes, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Williams, Launchbury, Shields, Robson, Ford, Cokanasiga.

ANY personal attacks will be a ban. No warnings.

[Guest]

Don't turn up, that would be ideal.

At his best North is one of the most potent attacking wingers in the world. Injury and game mismanagement has definitely robbed him of form and sone development between 2013-17. Was way off it in NZ with the Lions. Only in the last 12 months is he starting to consistently put in decent performances again rather than 1 amazing game to 2 or 3 average to poor. Aerial game is a lot better but still tackles with his fingers. Not the most 'game aware' player in the world either, so just on that rung below world class. Still ridiculously good though.

Also should've included Liam Williams against the other English wingers as he's as likely to play there as he is 15. Could see a case for picking May ahead of him - but LW has a far superior skillset than any winger England could pick. Will be one of the best players on the pitch in a fortnight.

[Cyril]

Miaow, I was starting to warm to your posting, but this is just insanity.

Fly (tongue in cheek) posted earlier that the Italians, with better skills, ability and coaching, could be the best in the world.

It’s basically what you posted about Wales, but it saved us all a lot of time

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Not sure about it being in the bag. But the lack of a leader for the backline at 10 for Wales is an issue. I think Biggar is better overall than Anscombe and can do that leading job but not to the level Sexton, Farrell, or Russell can. Very good at what he does bring though.

The issue will be fluidity. Man for man, particularly in the backs, you could make a case for saying Wales have the better players. But collectively Wales have stuttered for a long time. If Wales play like they did in the game last year at Twickenham I actually think they'll win. But they had Patchell and Anscombe offering running threats in that game.

Well I’m not sure if 9,10,12 are nailed on for Wales & on that basis alone it’s tough to argue Wales are stronger in the backs. Personally I would, right now have Slade instead of JD2, May is probably one of the best wingers around & North has defensive frailties.
Daly & Williams are probably on a par if different types of players. Adams v Nowell or Ashton not much to choose right now on form.



I honestly see no comparison with our front 5 ( 5 Lions) & Wales, England’s  back row are firing on all cylinders and are proving to be a great effective balance.

Right now in Gatlands words the teams are ‘ poles apart’.

Fair enough, outside backs then.
1/2P/Liam Williams over Daly/Brown
North over Ashton/Nowell
JD2 over Slade
May is in great form but I'd say North has been more consistently 'good'. If May carries this form into the RWC you could make an argument maybe but he's yet to do it at the top level (RWC/Lions) so it's North for me. May also has deficiencies, let's not pretend otherwise.

I'd also take Wales' back-row over England's. Whether that's the current options (bar Vunipola) or when full fit (Faletau every time over BV).

No real argument over the tight 5 although I think Ken is a better player than J George, although not as powerful/strong so call it evens overall. I'd take Ken, I'm sure many would take George. Ben Youngs can be great but, honestly, I'd say Gareth Davies isn't far away from his standard. Tomos Williams looking likewise but at the start of his career. The 10/12 channel is the most obviously gap between the teams, as is whoever partners AWJ in the second row.

I think you used North twice there but in any case I would disagree on both counts.

I think on current form there is little argument & quite frankly I would struggle to put any welsh player in the England team on that basis.

Form wise Wales best player has been Navidi & would u have him over Billy V?

Faletau & 1/2p aren’t currently playing.

Other arguments are based on past form.

The most crucial areas ie. half backs & front 5 are the least contentious so Wales could struggle to get set piece ball & when they do may not know what to do with it.

[Guest]

https://youtu.be/_gfj-lyDW-4?t=3218

Worth listening to for 30 seconds. What I've thought for a while. Also why Wales are never 'out' of games and why they've pushed Ireland and England close in recent years right to the 80th minute, even when sometimes being hammered up front.

[Scottrf]

Wales are potentially the best of the second layer of teams. I don’t think anyone is doubting they have good individual players.

[Guest]

Not sure about it being in the bag. But the lack of a leader for the backline at 10 for Wales is an issue. I think Biggar is better overall than Anscombe and can do that leading job but not to the level Sexton, Farrell, or Russell can. Very good at what he does bring though.

The issue will be fluidity. Man for man, particularly in the backs, you could make a case for saying Wales have the better players. But collectively Wales have stuttered for a long time. If Wales play like they did in the game last year at Twickenham I actually think they'll win. But they had Patchell and Anscombe offering running threats in that game.

Well I’m not sure if 9,10,12 are nailed on for Wales & on that basis alone it’s tough to argue Wales are stronger in the backs. Personally I would, right now have Slade instead of JD2, May is probably one of the best wingers around & North has defensive frailties.
Daly & Williams are probably on a par if different types of players. Adams v Nowell or Ashton not much to choose right now on form.



I honestly see no comparison with our front 5 ( 5 Lions) & Wales, England’s  back row are firing on all cylinders and are proving to be a great effective balance.

Right now in Gatlands words the teams are ‘ poles apart’.

Fair enough, outside backs then.
1/2P/Liam Williams over Daly/Brown
North over Ashton/Nowell
JD2 over Slade
May is in great form but I'd say North has been more consistently 'good'. If May carries this form into the RWC you could make an argument maybe but he's yet to do it at the top level (RWC/Lions) so it's North for me. May also has deficiencies, let's not pretend otherwise.

I'd also take Wales' back-row over England's. Whether that's the current options (bar Vunipola) or when full fit (Faletau every time over BV).

No real argument over the tight 5 although I think Ken is a better player than J George, although not as powerful/strong so call it evens overall. I'd take Ken, I'm sure many would take George. Ben Youngs can be great but, honestly, I'd say Gareth Davies isn't far away from his standard. Tomos Williams looking likewise but at the start of his career. The 10/12 channel is the most obviously gap between the teams, as is whoever partners AWJ in the second row.

I think you used North twice there but in any case I would disagree on both counts.

I think on current form there is little argument & quite frankly I would struggle to put any welsh player in the England team on that basis.

Form wise Wales  best player has been Navidi & would u have him over Billy V?

Faletau & 1/2p aren’t currently playing.

Other arguments are based on past form.

The most crucial areas ie. half backs & front 5 are the least contentious  so Wales could struggle to get set piece ball & when they do may not know what to do with it.

As I said later, LW probably plays on the wing if 1/2P fit. It's hard to know who to compare North too - he's played open and blindside wing. Adams in great form and looks comfortable at this level but not done it for long enough yet to be deemed better than Ashton or Nowell. Cockanasiga likewise - potentially brilliant but has played, what, twice for England? Once?

On current form? Yeah, that's going to be a struggle. It would be hard to look past an all England 15. But then form is again, what, two games so far this 6Ns? Do you take it back to the autumn, the summer, the previous 6Ns? Tipuric's been quietly brilliant this last 12 months. I'd certainly have him over Curry. BV over Navidi, no doubt about that. Navidi a solid player but not a starting test 8 by choice.

Form can flip on its head very quickly. Look at England last year. Look at Ireland at the moment. Wales are streaky and also sometimes are underwhelming until they need to play better. And I do think England will win because of their 1-15 power across the park, and also their set piece ability. Both should be relentless and the issue for Wales will be to score points against the head to keep in touch/ahead - can't see that without a solid 9/10/12 axis.

That said I don't believe what I've said is that contentious.

[Cyril]

Miaow, this year it’s not about just being ‘hammered up front’ by England. It’s about being taken apart by an incredibly quick, accurate and deadly attack. Wales (and Ireland and France) are ponderous and out-dated in comparison.

I don’t think Wales have the players, tactics, speed of thought or range of skills to cope. I don’t think you do either, despite the bluffing and the claim that few English players would get in a joint squad. Fairly laughable, to be honest.

[Guest]

The attack all comes from physical power. It means England have quickish ball at the rucks, and when it comes to Farrell, several legitimate running options for either contact, space, or a last minute pass. Add in the kicking game and teams haven't matched up to that yet. We didn't really see that phase play running game against Ireland but we did against France and Australia, two teams they took apart up front (not just the set piece, the breakdown and tackle area generally) and were able to do what they wanted as a result.

I should probably be more accurate with the phrases I use, but up front in my mind very much relates to the way they carry the ball through the forwards. And also defend with them as well. Not many teams can compete with that power (if any).

I don’t think Wales have the players, tactics, speed of thought or range of skills to cope. I don’t think you do either, despite the bluffing and the claim that few English players would get in a joint squad. Fairly laughable, to be honest.

I literally haven't said that though. I've said there's a case to be made that, man to man, Wales are there or thereabouts compared to England bar some (key) positions. What good that is, well, we'll find out, because the game isn't played on paper and head to heads. But I think people need to calm down a bit and read what I'm saying carefully. If I've been a bit vague or whatever, fine, I can clarify. But I mean only what I said - and that means that if Wales can nullify England's power game - as they did fairly well in 2017 although Youngs' try came as a result of sustained pressure where Wales couldn't slow down the ball - then they stand a good chance. It will all rely on game management - and that, sadly, is a weakness without Biggar. 9 and 12 also relative rookies - but who knows, they might end up being brilliant? When good, Parkes is a very solid and good reader of the game, and TW looks electric.

Anyway, still ages away from the game. No need to amp this up too soon. That's it for now.

[SecretFly]

England have everything.... it's true. Fizzicality, brains at 10, great kicking game, high speed runners.

For now, they're unbeatable... but that only lasts until the next game. Game starts and everybody is beatable as NZ have been finding out. Wales will have a decent crack at it or Warren Gatland ain't Warren Gatland.

[Cyril]

I’d put pretty much any English back (or forward for that matter) against his Wales counterpart skills-wise. JD2 chucking a 20 yard pass when a simple inside would have put a two on one sums him up. A reminder of the number of passes he put into touch for both the Lions and Wales. A strong player and a decent international, but Slade (just getting to grips with international rugby) is already surpassing him.

May is the form winger in the NH and probably up there in the world. North’s career has been a little disappointing after his stellar start.

[Guest]

Just one final point: the 13s. Slade and JD2 are very different players. Hard to compare. One is brilliant when outside a distributor, one of the best running games from 13, and also defensively in that channel too. But his clearing kick led to England winning in 2017.

On the other hand, Slade is that distributor, just not big enough for the 12 channel so has more time/space at 13. Has a much, much better passing and kicking game, and also not bad as a jinking runner, but not in the same league at carrying/finishing, nor defending.

It would actually be great to see how they play together. I imagine they'd suit each other well.

[mikey_dragon]

Surprised BamBam isn’t getting triggered by the very mention of AWJ

[Cyril]

Miaow, you said that you would take Wales’ backs, back-row and hooker (at least, your words) over England’s. Seems a bit odd, that’s all I said.

[Scottrf]

I don’t think it’s just the power game. Look at the first and (especially) third try against Ireland. Accurate, blistering passing which creates space and some deadly wingers that take the chances. Yes the power is important but if that’s all it was it would be a lot more defendable.

[Guest]

I’d put pretty much any English back (or forward for that matter) against his Wales counterpart skills-wise.

What!?



No thanks!

Night!

[Cyril]

Miaow, Daly, ‘not bad as a jinking runner’? Damned with faint praise methinks

[Guest]

Slade, good runner but footwork from a standing/slow start his best running attribute imo.

[Cyril]

Cracking one with those photos, miaow Surprised you didn’t post one of Gav picking up Tait

[Cyril]

Agree with Scott btw about England’s current success being way more than a power game. It’s all connected. Power is only a part of it. NZ’s success is all based on quick ball, clearing out, quick passing and playing intelligently. Who would have thought?

[lostinwales]

Its all very subjective, which helps to make the game interesting. North is very interesting case in point. Ball in hand and a bit of space for a run up and he's one of the most devastating runners in the game. But he takes time to get up to speed and he's not particularly mobile, not a great defender or ball handler. Defender gets to him same time as the ball he can be shut down. And that is what (mostly) England have done with him.

A couple of years back and he goes off and is replaced by Liam Williams and suddenly the whole attack looks more dangerous.

A player like May is always dangerous, and because of the kick chase has more to his game than always waiting for the last pass. He hasn't got the footwork of LW, but he's not bad as Penaud found out, and he's exceptionally quick.

[Sgt_Pooly]

1/2P/Liam Williams over Daly/Brown

- Depends here...Williams without question, fantastic player. 1/2P.....really? Safe as houses but not seeing him as much of an attacking force. Depends what you want really.

North over Ashton/Nowell

- On his day, yes. He has fewer and fewer of these days though and hasn't really been a major force for 3 or 4 years.

JD2 over Slade

- I'd go with that, JD can give a bit more when firing. Not sure how much in form he actually is though.

May is in great form but I'd say North has been more consistently 'good'.

- Ah come on! May has been consistently excellent for a while now, one of England's few genuine world class players. He doesn't really have a weakness and is such a threat in attack.

[Poorfour]

May doesn’t have the range of skills that Williams has, but he is probably the fastest player in the 15 man game at the moment and has learned how to use that speed in a way that teams don’t seem able to answer.

“Kick it in the general direction of the tryline and let Johnny work out how to score” should be a high risk play, used when you’re on an advantage and you haven’t got a better idea. That England can use it as a percentage play (and damn near 100% right now) speaks volumes.

Man for man, you could make a case for a 6 Nations combined XV that would be dominated by Wales, or Ireland, or England. Pretty much every position is arguable, because you’ve got the teams ranked 2nd to 4th in the world in the same tournament, and they are separated by so little that their games against each other in this tournament could end up shuffling that order quite thoroughly.

But rugby isn’t played man for man, and the evidence of the first two rounds is that England have found a selection balance and a set of tactics that Wales and Ireland are still searching for.

I have little doubt that Wales will raise their game in two weeks, because they always do, and that England will need to be even more precise defensively, because Wales will be better at exploiting any gaps than Ireland or France were. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see a flurry of Welsh tries late in the game.

But I also expect the game to be played mostly between halfway and the Welsh 22, and that England possession near the 22 will turn into points more often than not. If I had to guess, England will be looking to defend a two score lead going into the final quarter and Wales will have to hold their nerve and take their chances - without telegraphing a pass for Slade to intercept.

[Guest]

Of course. Not just about power.

One interesting stat from the opening rounds - England's missed tackle count. 28 missed tackles at 87% against Ireland. 33 missed tackles at 82% against France.

That said, particularly against Ireland, the stats don't reflect the game for England. Or they don't give the whole picture at least.

But something to exploit there. Wales aren't the most clinical of teams but they do have electric players. Don't discount Adams - in great form.

Clean Breaks:
IRE: 6
FRA: 22
Defenders beaten:
IRE: 28
FRA: 33

Those need to be viewed in context - England have much lower stats but have scored 9 tries and conceded 3. But there is clearly a weakness in defence. If Wales can hold onto the ball/have outside runners latching onto breaks, there's a chance. Time for Anscombe's running game to shine.

[No 7&1/2]

Ignoring the subjective Guscott like teams worth pointing out I don't think Saracens are ever off topping the missed tackles stats and they are certainly there for the picking defence wise.

[Poorfour]

The problem with missed tackle counts is that they are a stat that hasn't kept up with modern defensive systems.

Highly aggressive defensive systems are designed around the risk of a missed tackle, with the expectation being that the onrushing defender will disrupt play enough to enable a cover tackler to close down the attack.

If you look at England's play, rather than the stats, they conceded one well built try to Ireland in the first half, and one breakaway try in each game after the game was already won. Most of the rest of the time, they were conceding very few yards - the 1014 analysed where the rucks were in the Ireland game, and they were hugely concentrated between Ireland's 22 and half way, which tells you how little ground Ireland were making.

That's not really a sign of defensive weakness.

[Scottrf]

We’ve had the missed tackle debate before but Ireland are the only team close to England in terms of a defence.

[majesticimperialman]

I think a lot of what is happening in this 6ns is that teams like (Ireland and to some degree Wales) have developed away  to win games with their style of play. Every body knows about Ireland's wrap around play with sexton and murry and they normally make holes in the other teams defence.

No team especialy Ireland expect to lose at home, no matter who they are playing against.
I don't think any one including the most rose tinted fan ( including me) expected England to play like they did. But it brought an end to Ireland's winning run.

I have said it before on here no team can afford to take any game as a given, even though they are playing at home.

Wales will have to find away to find away to keep England's hand's off the ball if they want to win. And so far i have not seen any thing in Wales 2 game's that could suggest they could do that.

England have played two game's and played each game differently to the last, and have won both game's with full points compared to Wales.

It is going to be a tough old game, that is for sure. Do Wales have the mental strength to win over England at home.

We will see soon enough.

[Cyril]

France might be poor in defence, but attacking-wise they have more in their locker than Wales. Ireland too. Neither side got much out of England’s defence.

Wales can defend all day, but are unlikely to score much other than multiples of three. Against this England side that won’t be nearly enough.

Gatland might have to throw caution to the wind for a change, but as with France, that will probably get messy for Wales.

[No 7&1/2]

Wales in broken play are more dangerous than france by a country mile but England so far have strangled games and their kicking and chase has been so good as to limit the chances to run it back. Wales back 3 are much better than france under any sort of kick and they probably won't be playing am inexperienced full back. 2 weeks for Jones at al to pick apart their system though.

[RiscaGame]

Just when you think you have all the answers, Gats keeps changing the questions. Or something like that anyway

[Ricardo74]

England so far have strangled games and their kicking and chase has been so good as to limit the chances to run it back.

For me this has been an absolute highlight of the England play thus far. The quality of the chase has repeatedly closed down and put pressure on the kick fielder, even when he's managed to avoid the "lead" chaser.

Which brings me to the impressive piece - England have come up *very* quickly, but in a flat defensive line. There May (pardon the pun) be one runner arriving ahead of the pack, putting pressure on the kick, but if he is stepped or misses the tackle (contributing to England's higher missed tackle count) the runner finds a white wall there almost immediately afterwards.

The quality of the kicking game, especially against France, meant that they really had nowhere to go (on the occasions they got to the ball ahead of England).

I expect Wales to deal with the kicks better (perhaps play an actual fullback), but the pressure defence will be up fast.

This pretty much dovetails into all the points made previously by your regular posters; England's defensive pressure is stifling, and the system does allow for missed tackles which disrupt. The quality of execution in attack has been better than I have seen from England, and pretty much any team in recent memory, for years, even when we were on "the run".

Wales have quality, they have passion, and they have confidence. They're at home too.

It's going to be huge and I can't wait.

[Rugby Fan]

More so than any other opponent, I can recall games where England clearly had the better of Wales but then let them back in. Wembley and the last World Cup are the most famous examples but Jones nearly had one in his first season, until North ran into touch at the death (or did he?)

The 2017 match in Cardiff was also a near-run thing. England were still on that record run but we struggled for fluency, and got only out of jail ourselves when JD2 didn't clear his lines.

When you remember that they should still have four Lions who have beaten NZ, and a very competitive back row, then we'd be mugs to think this game will be a pushover, because it hasn't been like that so far for Jones. Also, you'd assume Wales will actual watch footage of how England have played, to come up with ideas to counter us. In that respect, the two week gap could be helpful.

On the plus side, for those arguing Wales won't fall for the kick behind with May chasing, that's exactly how England scored their first try last year, after only a couple of minutes of play. Mind you, it was an unfamiliar back line for Wales that day, with Anscombe at fifteen, Evans & Adams on the wings, and Parkes paired with Scott Williams in the centre.

[maestegmafia]

More so than any other opponent, I can recall games where England clearly had the better of Wales but then let them back in. Wembley and the last World Cup are the most famous examples but Jones nearly had one in his first season, until North ran into touch at the death (or did he?)

The 2017 match in Cardiff was also a near-run thing. England were still on that record run but we struggled for fluency, and got only out of jail ourselves when JD2 didn't clear his lines.

When you remember that they should still have four Lions who have beaten NZ, and a very competitive back row, then we'd be mugs to think this game will be a pushover, because it hasn't been like that so far for Jones. Also, you'd assume Wales will actual watch footage of how England have played, to come up with ideas to counter us. In that respect, the two week gap could be helpful.

On the plus side, for those arguing Wales won't fall for the kick behind with May chasing, that's exactly how England scored their first try last year, after only a couple of minutes of play. Mind you, it was an unfamiliar back line for Wales that day, with Anscombe at fifteen, Evans & Adams on the wings, and Parkes paired with Scott Williams in the centre.

There is a lot of very good video of how England play well for analysis. Wales have won two matches playing very poor rugby, making tones of mistakes, handling errors, knock ons, they have crossed the try line a number of times but most of those trys were disallowed for various correct reasons. Their scrum has been good but lineout appalling, with either Hooker. So many players are lacking game time and confidence when their opponents are playing their best rugby in over a decade.

It’s going to be a very busy two weeks at the Vale prepping for this match.

[RiscaGame]

Best place for us though. We have generally got our skills up, the longer we have been in camp. I can't see any players being released this weekend from the camp either. I wouldn't say players will be under confident. Even players like Dee (who didn't have his best game last weekend) seems a resilient enough player who will soon put it behind him.

I wouldn't say I would suggest a Welsh win, but I do expect us to be a lot better than we have been.

[Guest]

Silly player vs player comparisons aside we have:
The fastest starting international team against one of the slowest.
The best defence against the bluntest attack.
A completely on-song team making minimal mistakes against one who aren’t putting a full 80 together.
How someone can watch the two France games and put Wales as favourites is beyond me.

Has anyone actually said that?

[LondonTiger]

I can't see any players being released this weekend from the camp either. 

As the international window is now closed - opening again on Sunday night - the likes of Williams, Adams, Holmes, Biggar, Young & Francis will have to have been released this week I believe.

[Scottrf]

Silly player vs player comparisons aside we have:
The fastest starting international team against one of the slowest.
The best defence against the bluntest attack.
A completely on-song team making minimal mistakes against one who aren’t putting a full 80 together.
How someone can watch the two France games and put Wales as favourites is beyond me.

Has anyone actually said that?

Yes, albeit only a couple. I think I've exaggerated my point a bit as Wales are a good side.

[No 7&1/2]

And hopefully all their clubs pick them for the full 80 in any matches they have.

[LondonTiger]

Silly player vs player comparisons aside we have:
The fastest starting international team against one of the slowest.
The best defence against the bluntest attack.
A completely on-song team making minimal mistakes against one who aren’t putting a full 80 together.
How someone can watch the two France games and put Wales as favourites is beyond me.

Has anyone actually said that?

Yes, albeit only a couple. I think I've exaggerated my point a bit as Wales are a good side.

I am one who has stated that I think Wales should be favourites for this game. I also hope that England are training as if Wales are favourites.

[Ricardo74]

I am one who has stated that I think Wales should be favourites for this game. I also hope that England are training as if Wales are favourites.

I think home advantage is massive for Wales. That said, i thought that about Ireland too...

[Guest]

Silly player vs player comparisons aside we have:
The fastest starting international team against one of the slowest.
The best defence against the bluntest attack.
A completely on-song team making minimal mistakes against one who aren’t putting a full 80 together.
How someone can watch the two France games and put Wales as favourites is beyond me.

Has anyone actually said that?

Yes, albeit only a couple. I think I've exaggerated my point a bit as Wales are a good side.

Really? I must have missed it. Even Miaow, who has been debating the merits of the Welsh backs v English backs, has said that England are rightfully the favourites!

[RiscaGame]

I can't see any players being released this weekend from the camp either. 

As the international window is now closed - opening again on Sunday night - the likes of Williams, Adams, Holmes, Biggar, Young & Francis will have to have been released this week I believe.

Ah yeah, there we go then. I was more thinking of players based in Wales anyway and more from a Dragons beating Edinburgh point of view.

[BamBam]

Others probably know better than me, but I've always thought Liam Williams first instinct when he catches the ball deep is to look to run it back, or look for an up and under - I've never thought he has the best tactical kicking game for finding touch or space behind a defence

This could play into our hands a bit, if, as mentioned above, we manage to get May hounding him down as soon as he is catching the ball, then even if May gets stepped or beaten we should expect the rest of the defence to be there shutting off the gaps at which point he'd be deep within his half on the floor. The challenge there is going to be making sure that the follow up tackle isn't missed, because he is a game breaking runner.

If Halfpenny is at FB, if I was lucky enough to be Welsh, I'd be much more confident with dealing with the kicking game as though he may not have the fireworks with ball in hand, his positioning and kicking game would go a long way to cancelling out the kick chase game of England. As fast as May is, the ball is faster and Halfpenny has an annoying knack of being within 5m of where every kick lands, and then has the game to pin us back or put pressure on Daly

[LordDowlais]

Wales are potentially the best of the second layer of teams. I don’t think anyone is doubting they have good individual players.

What do you mean by second layer ?

[LondonTiger]

Wales are potentially the best of the second layer of teams. I don’t think anyone is doubting they have good individual players.

What do you mean by second layer ?

Depends which direction you count. When making a cake is the first layer the bottom layer, ie the one you lay first, or the top layer which you cut first?

[LordDowlais]

I need him to clarify what he means by second layer of teams.

[No 7&1/2]

Probably not the top 3. I think they were classed as elite teams by another poster.

[LondonTiger]

I need him to clarify what he means by second layer of teams.

Probably not a great deal. It was felt like a little dig at a poster who, as 7.5 says, was banging open about an elite Top 3.

Of course it may be a huge compliment to Wales as NZ are perhaps in their own layer.

[LondonTiger]

1/2p over his concussion says Pivac

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47210774

[LordDowlais]

Faletau might be in contention as well.

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