Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

by Cyril Sat 20 Oct - 20:56

First topic message reminder :

Part 2

by geoff999rugby Wed 9 Jan - 10:03

Late Feb to Early April is my guess

by geoff999rugby Wed 9 Jan - 10:04

BelfastDickVet wrote:I don’t disagree with you there and yes the game may not have been as much of a white wash if they had some “older heads” out there.

Many on here have been quite critical of Cooney this year, and Shanahan is actually our top try scorer this season so far, I actually thought McBurnley was one of the best players on the pitch, he had a real edge and showed more than herring has this year. Our props were seasoned players, albeit they haven’t had much gametime due to injury, AOC has captained the team a fair bit this year, Sean Reidy and Nick Timmoney have had a fair amount of game time too. Arguably Coetzee would have been in that backrow had he not been out with concussion. That could have made a huge difference, experience wise.

I think the backs really did lack experience and a strong defensive leader which addision would have brought. I like Cave but he looked as though he was trying to do everything leading to him achieving very little. The old cliché that you won’t win championships with kids, is true and exposing our young guns in games like this is very important long term, but as suggested it may serve them better to give them a bit more support in the form of more senior dispersed amongst the team. I would also say this can’t be their only outing this season and that we need them on the pitch more often.

There are Pro’s and Con’s here, I was just addressing the point that Clive made that he thought that belief that the players gained from last night’s defeat was BS. At the end of the day this is those fellas full time job, when you get a hammering like that, it’s a stark reminder to them how good they actually have to be to make it as a pro rugby player and it may have been the incentive they needed to push them onto hitting that next level or accepting they will never get to that point. Being a coach is brutal, as everyone is a critic, everyone knows how to do things better and the problems are always obvious. It’s tough, but these guys know what they are doing.

That is a very good post

by geoff999rugby Wed 9 Jan - 10:11

On two point made

One about not winning anything for , at least this year and next.
Nobody is saying we wont true or don't want to but given the state of the club you have to be realistic.
If we qualify for the QF's will we give it everything and some to make a European SF - hell yes.

The other point is around giving youngsters time in teams with more experienced players alongside.
We have done that in spades this year - how anyone can suggest otherwise amazes me

So far this year there have been 38 appearances by players from the Academy - 6 players in total
So far this year there have been 76 appearances by development contracted players - 12 players in total

Never in the history of Ulster rugby has youth been given so much game time

by geoff999rugby Wed 9 Jan - 10:16

One last point, for now, many looking at the kids seem to have already written some off..

Short memories
When he first appeared in the team Stockdale was like Bambi on ice
Many saw him and said never make it - look at him now
Be patient

by Standulstermen Wed 9 Jan - 11:02

I didn’t fancy stockdale when he first hit the team. Not that I thought he wouldn’t make it but certainly I didn’t think he would have the impact he has had in green.

Now, about ulster. The only thing I will categorically say this year is that the interpros will have been disappointing. We can’t still make the playoffs in two competitions and if we did then (imo) the season will have been a massive success.

What Geoff has said about using the young ones is great but it isn’t all rosy particularly in the key area of the back five of the pack. We have pretty much relief on Coetzee, Murphy, Timoney, Reidy with a dash of Rea Sr between injuries/suspensions. There hasn’t really been a hint of Agnew/Dunleavy or Hall (long term injury I believe) which is what worries me. Are they deemed not good enough? Second row we have seen little of Dalton and what I’ve seen hasn’t impressed.

That’s not to say there aren’t improvements. Our first choice backrow is very good and aspects of our forward play are excellent. The sight of ulster mauling for scores against Munster and Connacht while largely negating their own was brilliant and something I haven’t seen in years. McBurney looks to have something about him. Obviously O’Sullivan and O’Toole are positives and some of the young backs look promising but we really need three Or so signings and to keep Coetzee to kick on and improve and give the youngsters in the pack a better platform to perform.

by geoff999rugby Wed 9 Jan - 12:27

Regarding the backrow I refer to my last two words

'Be patient'

Hall, Dunleavy, Agnew, Allison, McCann are all still 20 or under
The last 3 are only in their first year in the Academy
Hall may well not play this season but I believe he has what it takes
Add in young Rea who is only 21
You will see a fair bit of Rea jnr, Hall and possibly Dunleavy next year.
The others not so much.
Add in Jones, Timoney and Rea senior and there is some serious potential there

I'm not sure about Montgomery but interesting he come on in the 2nd row
Lock is more of a worry but both AOC and Treadwell have more to learn and if Nagle stays that will be a big help
Dalton looks like a forward version of Bambi but McFarland seems to think he has potential. Reagan ?

I'll repeat my guess that any NIE's will be at LH and Lock

As for Prop I believe the Herbst to Bulls is probably true.
As I said in my player run down he is far from certain to stay.
I reckon that Warwick will move to TH, where he has played before

My predictions for front row options next year are:
LH - NIE, O'Sullivan as backup and hopefully McCall and O'Hagan coming back from injuries in good shape
Hooker - Herring and McBurney going head to head, Andrew as backup and McCall as 4th choice
TH - Moore first choice, backed up by Kane and O'Toole with Warwick as 4th choice

by Standulstermen Wed 9 Jan - 12:57

Playing devils advocate here Geoff.

I just watched a guy (Penney) dominate a capped international at the breakdown. Obviously it isn’t as simple as that but Penney is at least a year younger than Dunleavy, Agnew and Hall and yet we brought on Clive Ross. That’s an issue surely. If the guys are being held back by Clive Ross then the question needs asked no matter their age, as to whether McFarland thinks they have it. By the by I’m not referring to Allison or McCann here. It’s purely aimed at Dunleavy and Agnew and possibly Rea Jr.

I’d also worry about O’Hagan. His first cap at what 25 and he breaks. He has been in squads before and broke down too. I wonder if he will be retained which is a shame. Words can’t quite express how disappointed I am with Dalton each and every time I see him play. I watched him for the A’s earlier in the year and Luney looked more promising

by **rodders** Wed 9 Jan - 13:22

geoff999rugby wrote:
Lock is more of a worry but both AOC and Treadwell have more to learn and if Nagle stays that will be a big help

Any thoughts on Nagle? I've been impressed actually, he looks like he has bulked up and not only has the line out looked good when he's played, he's shown a fair bit of aggression and spirit.

My feeling on Henderson is he plays better alongside a more traditional lock who can run the lineout and stand close to the ruck. Nagle looks like he fits that bill.

The problem is when he plays alongside Treadwell (and Ryan for Ireland) he's forced to play that role and away from his strengths which is playing a bit wider away from the ruck.

by Don Alfonso Wed 9 Jan - 13:29

There are a number of supporters suggesting it's ridiculous that we started so many inexperienced lads together. And you want a third lad earning his first cap off the bench (or second, if it had been Hall).

McFarland was Scotland forwards coach at at time that they cam on leaps and bounds, with their pack able to play the same fast, mobile game plan as the backs, and do so with real clarity. I trust his judgement.

by marty2086 Wed 9 Jan - 13:37

geoff999rugby wrote:
The other point is around giving youngsters time in teams with more experienced players alongside.
We have done that in spades this year - how anyone can suggest otherwise amazes me

To be clear, for me it was about the approach to the Leinster game, there's no doubt that the players will have learned from the game. For me though, sending them out with the world knowing that they aren't expected to win isn't the right one to take. The pressure should be put on, the expectations should be there to win and the team selection said otherwise. I pointed out how guys like Hume, Stockdale and Kernoghan have performed when thrown in with the more front line players and seem better for it. If we want the players to be reaching a standard in 3 or 4 years, should we be waiting to set that standard or should that be expected of them now?

Even if one or two of the likes of Best, Cooney, Murphy, Addison etc weren't going to be selected as I think would have been better then training with them in preparation for the game Im sure would have helped but those guys were on holiday too.

by marty2086 Wed 9 Jan - 13:45

Standulstermen wrote:
Words can’t quite express how disappointed I am with Dalton each and every time I see him play. I watched him for the A’s earlier in the year and Luney looked more promising

I saw Dalton myself earlier this year for the As, it was his first game back from injury and it seemed he ran himself into the ground in an awful performance from Ulster. He was pulled off after 50 mins to protect him from reoccurence of the injury, far from great but Ulsters pack were getting bullied by bigger and more experienced guys, he seems to be an athlete with some some of that dog about him, I know he was fuming about coming off.

Hall seems to be in a similar mould, seems to be a feisty character on the field

by The Great Aukster Wed 9 Jan - 14:05

Two interesting articles in the last Sunday Times.

Interview with Marty Moore who was amazed at the metres per minute expected from the Ulster players, and how it was way more than anything at Wasps. He also mentioned how McFarland was wanting to play faster than other teams.
- Players like Dalton who is an athlete first and learning rugby second are obviously in his radar because of their speed as is Treadwell, Timoney and Hall in the forwards and the likes of Lowry, Baloucoune and Hughes in the backs.

The other interview was with Tadgh Beirne who explained how Leinster let him go after a series of injuries. He also mentioned how he learned what it actually took to succeed after considering giving up the game. A must read for those players going through rehab.
- Chris Farrell had a chequered injury record that contributed to his departure, but what is certain is that the experience of moving improved his game manyfold. Maybe guys like O'Hagan and Lyttle with just need a really positive game to cement their future, or maybe they need to move to get fresh ideas?

by clivemcl Wed 9 Jan - 14:48

My comments about the youngsters not learning anything from that game were a bit silly - that's fair. I guess I was just reacting to the gulf I see between young inexperienced (number of senior caps) players between Ulster and Leinster.

OK, so our might learn something, and we can say they are a work in progress. But I can't help but feel the equivalent players for Leinster tend to cope and play better when faced with similar circumstances. Although I can't claim to have watched every game in which Leinster have fielded a team with so many young players - couldn't tell you which fixtures they did that for, but I'd be keen to watch those matches.

by Standulstermen Wed 9 Jan - 15:39

Don Alfonso wrote:There are a number of supporters suggesting it's ridiculous that we started so many inexperienced lads together. And you want a third lad earning his first cap off the bench (or second, if it had been Hall).

McFarland was Scotland forwards coach at at time that they cam on leaps and bounds, with their pack able to play the same fast, mobile game plan as the backs, and do so with real clarity. I trust his judgement.

Yes I would rather have a debutant than Clive Ross. I’m certainly not criticising McFarland and I highlighted where you can see his success already but we aren’t going to learn anything from Clive Ross and our backrow had Reidy and Timoney who have plenty of caps. Leinster had Penny and josh Murphy and Deegan. Not a formidable group to start your career against. I don’t much care how many youngsters were involved so long as the coaches can isolate the positives. Don’t get me wrong if we start to see Dunleavy and co alongside Coetzee and Reidy during the 6N then I’m wrong but we are now in a situation where we have to win these games so I wonder will McFarland risk it.

That’s not me be overly critical because I expect us to win this weekend and should we make playoffs I think the season has been worth it and a few bad interpro results won’t change that for me.

Marty
On dalton, the simple fact is we have to persevere and give him every chance before we make a final decision. He shouldn’t be discuonted too early. I have to say the only time he seems to put himself about was when there were handbags going on. His tackle stats from last season were very poor but he was just starting. I haven’t looked at last weekend and probably won’t in truth. It would be harsh to judge him on one game. I think he’s a less talented Caldwell. For me Nagle has come in and done really well. He put himself about against Munster and Connacht.

by Standulstermen Wed 9 Jan - 15:49

I should add that I wasn’t criticising O’Hagan in my comments. Just highlighting that for me he should have been given a go sooner than he was but he is mid 20s with 1 ten minute cap and a pretty poor injury record. Will Ulster keep faith?

by Don Alfonso Wed 9 Jan - 17:07

Standulstermen wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:There are a number of supporters suggesting it's ridiculous that we started so many inexperienced lads together. And you want a third lad earning his first cap off the bench (or second, if it had been Hall).

McFarland was Scotland forwards coach at at time that they cam on leaps and bounds, with their pack able to play the same fast, mobile game plan as the backs, and do so with real clarity. I trust his judgement.

Yes I would rather have a debutant than Clive Ross. I’m certainly not criticising McFarland and I highlighted where you can see his success already but we aren’t going to learn anything from Clive Ross and our backrow had Reidy and Timoney who have plenty of caps. Leinster had Penny and josh Murphy and Deegan. Not a formidable group to start your career against. I don’t much care how many youngsters were involved so long as the coaches can isolate the positives. Don’t get me wrong if we start to see Dunleavy and co alongside Coetzee and Reidy during the 6N then I’m wrong but we are now in a situation where we have to win these games so I wonder will McFarland risk it.

That’s not me be overly critical because I expect us to win this weekend and should we make playoffs I think the season has been worth it and a few bad interpro results won’t change that for me.

Marty
On dalton, the simple fact is we have to persevere and give him every chance before we make a final decision. He shouldn’t be discuonted too early. I have to say the only time he seems to put himself about was when there were handbags going on. His tackle stats from last season were very poor but he was just starting. I haven’t looked at last weekend and probably won’t in truth. It would be harsh to judge him on one game. I think he’s a less talented Caldwell. For me Nagle has come in and done really well. He put himself about against Munster and Connacht.

While I take your point about the Leinster backrow, it's worth bearing in mind that they aren't working in isolation. McGrath, Cronin, Porter and Mick Kearney (44 Leinster/68 Connacht caps) are all there to take the pressure off that Leinster backrow. There's no equivalents in the Ulster pack. Reidy has one or two caps. That's your lot. McGrath has more Lions caps than that whole Ulster pack had international caps. Is McCall going to help Jones the way McGrath could help Deegan? Is O'Connor going to yell advice at Dalton the way Cronin could advise Penny? It's worth bearing in mind that those first two tries were from that young buck Sean Cronin - the senior heads getting the job done, hammering Ulster til the heads went down.

Also - Hall, Dunleavy, Rea Jr - these are backrow forwards. They need to have physicality. if 19/20 year olds don't have the requisite toughness that's not a failure - that's usual. Par for the course. (I know there are outliers form Leinster that are freakishly physically capable, but that's the numbers game.) And you have a duty of care to them. It was a very poor performance - defensively abysmal. But you don't want to have 20 year old lads hobbling off injured on their first cap.

by Standulstermen Wed 9 Jan - 17:34

Whilst that’s fair enough Don and I know Agnew specifically isn’t the biggest the reality is they will have come up against bigger packs at U20 level. I’m thinking the french last year or the English/Saffas every year.

Of course Leinster had more experience in the pack the reality is that’s it highlights another issue of leadership within the wider ulster squad. Take Best out and we struggle massively and even that is a downgrade on what we saw under Muller. I’m not suggesting McCall or O’Toole should step up but Warwick, O’Connor,and Reidy can’t have the same excuse. Plus we do need one (or some) of these kids to step up badly because we won’t have Best much longer.

I’m getting off topic though. My point is we simply don’t have the luxury of bringing through guys with those type of players this season because we simply don’t have enough of them. I’d still rather we got some sense that they were progressing (and we might yet). If they get selected later this season I’m dead wrong and that’s great. For me I just don’t want to see a combination of Coetzee,Timoney, Reidy and Rea sr picked again and again and again throughout the 6N.

by Don Alfonso Wed 9 Jan - 17:56

Well, I do agree with your last point. Would definitely like to see one of them feature during 6N, in some manner.

But I made the point the other day that none of McCall, Reidy or O'Connor has even played knockout HEC rugby. Possibly not knockout Pro14. We will have no leadership at a high enough level until those "middle tier" lads have experienced that. If we can get into a QF and even just acquit ourselves well, rather than win it, it will really help the squad.

by geoff999rugby Wed 9 Jan - 18:30

+1 to Dons post starting 'While I take your point about the Leinster backrow...'

We have seen Jones this year and he will get more game time as the season progresses.
Hall would have been up next but he is injured.

My guess is the 6N period will be Coetzee, Reidy, Timoney first choice with the Rea brothers and Jones getting game time.
Would be very surprised if Dunleavy or the 1st year Academy players getting any game time .
More likely see Montgomery than any of them.

Given what we need to achieve and given where they are with their development that strikes me as the correct decision.

by Standulstermen Wed 9 Jan - 22:45

Montgomery is a bit of a conundrum for me. Reports suggested he did well at lock for the A’s earlier in the season. That said is he not 25 or so already as well? It is increasingly becoming a young mans game (outside of the front row)

Hall has been injured albeit Agnew overtook him for the U20s last year. That said watching the two of them Hall looks a lot more physically ready for pro rugby. Don’t me wrong I think there isn’t anything so insurmountable that two very good signings in the front and second row wouldn’t go a long way to solving.

McFarland does seem to have his head screwed on. On a slight tangent what will the coaching team look like next year. The only one I’m slightly dubious about is Peel.. actually possibly Dundon too but will McFarland agree?

by The Great Aukster Wed 9 Jan - 22:52

Standulstermen wrote:Yes I would rather have a debutant than Clive Ross. I’m certainly not criticising McFarland and I highlighted where you can see his success already but we aren’t going to learn anything from Clive Ross and our backrow had Reidy and Timoney who have plenty of caps. Leinster had Penny and josh Murphy and Deegan. Not a formidable group to start your career against.

Penny, Murphy, Deegan and Doris have a total of 58 caps between them and Clive Ross has 65 on his own. That's 65 caps that could have been used to develop four young Ulster players over the same period he's been with Ulster. Clive (and Alan O'Connor) did a lot to dispel the taboo for Southern players moving north, which can't be understated, but having him on the bench was pointless and a mistake by McFarland.

by The Great Aukster Wed 9 Jan - 22:54

Montgomery doesn't look to be more than about 6'4" - is that big enough to be lock?

by Don Alfonso Thu 10 Jan - 1:36

The Great Aukster wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Yes I would rather have a debutant than Clive Ross. I’m certainly not criticising McFarland and I highlighted where you can see his success already but we aren’t going to learn anything from Clive Ross and our backrow had Reidy and Timoney who have plenty of caps. Leinster had Penny and josh Murphy and Deegan. Not a formidable group to start your career against.

Penny, Murphy, Deegan and Doris have a total of 58 caps between them and Clive Ross has 65 on his own. That's 65 caps that could have been used to develop four young Ulster players over the same period he's been with Ulster. Clive (and Alan O'Connor) did a lot to dispel the taboo for Southern players moving north, which can't be understated, but having him on the bench was pointless and a mistake by McFarland.

No harm but that's nonsense. Which young Ulster back row would you have played instead of Ross' fifteenth cap? Or his twenty sixth?

by The Great Aukster Thu 10 Jan - 6:32

The point is that pre-Dan, the Coaches didn't take a risk unlike their Leinster counter parts.
Sean Dougall didn't get a single game and highly rated youngsters like Taggart and Dow disappeared without trace. Lorcan Dow looked just as good as Deegan or Dardis at that age. Conor Joyce looked as good as Ross too which admittedly isn't a high bar, but at least he had age and pace on his side.

by Don Alfonso Thu 10 Jan - 8:34

I'd agree that previous coaches had no faith in young forwards. I'm not convinced Dow was as good as Deegan by any stretch of the imagination and Joyce really wasn't great, though.

Having said that, Leinster didn't see enough to have patience with Beirne. And isn't Delahunt a Leinster lad?

Mistakes are made. Mistakes are part and parcel. And you never know when it will prove to be correct. I think, good as he is, and it pains me to say it, but Ulster's decision to allow Farrell to go has been vindicated. He's never fit.

by geoff999rugby Thu 10 Jan - 9:14

Don Alfonso wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Yes I would rather have a debutant than Clive Ross. I’m certainly not criticising McFarland and I highlighted where you can see his success already but we aren’t going to learn anything from Clive Ross and our backrow had Reidy and Timoney who have plenty of caps. Leinster had Penny and josh Murphy and Deegan. Not a formidable group to start your career against.

Penny, Murphy, Deegan and Doris have a total of 58 caps between them and Clive Ross has 65 on his own. That's 65 caps that could have been used to develop four young Ulster players over the same period he's been with Ulster. Clive (and Alan O'Connor) did a lot to dispel the taboo for Southern players moving north, which can't be understated, but having him on the bench was pointless and a mistake by McFarland.

No harm but that's nonsense. Which young Ulster back row would you have played instead of Ross' fifteenth cap? Or his twenty sixth?

Agreed

Great Aukster you are bringing up mistakes by previous regimes - just about everyone agrees with you, including Dan McFarland, but what has happened has happened.
The current regime can only be help accountable for this year not before.

I'll extend this to Cunningham.
As is clear, and in his own word, Les Kiss decided who signed and who didn't sign.
He should only be judged on the current crop - Murphy, Burns, Addison, Moore, Nagle, Speight
Not withstanding he was not the only one who played a part in their selection

by geoff999rugby Thu 10 Jan - 9:15

Standulstermen wrote:Montgomery is a bit of a conundrum for me. Reports suggested he did well at lock for the A’s earlier in the season. That said is he not 25 or so already as well? It is increasingly becoming a young mans game (outside of the front row)

Hall has been injured albeit Agnew overtook him for the U20s last year. That said watching the two of them Hall looks a lot more physically ready for pro rugby. Don’t me wrong I think there isn’t anything so insurmountable that two very good signings in the front and second row wouldn’t go a long way to solving.

McFarland does seem to have his head screwed on. On a slight tangent what will the coaching team look like next year. The only one I’m slightly dubious about is Peel.. actually possibly Dundon too but will McFarland agree?

I don't think Peel or Dundon are safe.

Payne and Soper are most definitely here to stay.
Montgomery as an emergency lock/backrow forward maybe what keeps him here another year

by Standulstermen Thu 10 Jan - 10:07

Not sure I 100% agree with you Geoff on cunningham. I’m on the fence with regards to his culpability and his ability to stand up to D4 (albeit perhaps he wasn’t in a position to do so last year). Don’t want to rehash that debate though.

Next seasons batch of signings will tell a lot. I haven’t given up hope of a few very good signings despite most saying the big name signings are done. It would be great if we could approach people as one of the final 8 in europe

by marty2086 Thu 10 Jan - 10:35

geoff999rugby wrote:
I don't think Peel or Dundon are safe.

Listening to Jonathan Bradley talk about the two of them a few weeks ago, Dundon seems to be responsible for the improvement in the maul so he may have earned some credit in the bank with that. Peel seems like wants to stay but is wanted by Scarlets who are interested in him replacing Stephen Jones and Dragons have him as potential head coach

by Redman Thu 10 Jan - 11:44

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I don't think Peel or Dundon are safe.

Listening to Jonathan Bradley talk about the two of them a few weeks ago, Dundon seems to be responsible for the improvement in the maul so he may have earned some credit in the bank with that. Peel seems like wants to stay but is wanted by Scarlets who are interested in him replacing Stephen Jones and Dragons have him as potential head coach

That's interesting because I was thinking Dundon has done nothing for us in the scrum. It's easily the weakest part of our forward play and with Best and Moore that's a poor return.

The maul however is clearly outperforming, both in attack and defence. I would go so far to say our maul defence is excellent.

by Don Alfonso Thu 10 Jan - 11:54

Last season and the season before it was absolutely woejus. Didn't Munster score their three tries at Ravenspan last season all from mauls?

by geoff999rugby Thu 10 Jan - 11:59

I would put the maul improvement down to McFarland rather than Dundon.
Bradley is not that clued up in my opinion
Dundon is responsible for the scrum rather than wider forward play which sits in McFarlands domain.
The scrum has improved since Moore has been fully fit imv

As for Peel it is the worst kept secret that Pienaer wants to return to Ulster as a coach if possible and Ulster are interested.
When is his contract up - 2020 ??

by marty2086 Thu 10 Jan - 12:25

geoff999rugby wrote:I would put the maul improvement down to McFarland rather than Dundon.
Bradley is not that clued up in my opinion
Dundon is responsible for the scrum rather than wider forward play which sits in McFarlands domain.
The scrum has improved since Moore has been fully fit imv

As for Peel it is the worst kept secret that Pienaer wants to return to Ulster as a coach if possible and Ulster are interested.
When is his contract up - 2020 ??

Pienaar could retire now and Montpellier would have no comeback to it, this is the loophole they tried to get Goosen to use to move from Racing.

I believe he would also be eligible for a decent pension from the French as he retired while working there

by geoff999rugby Thu 10 Jan - 12:40

Would he still be eligible for the pension even if living in Ulster ?

by marty2086 Thu 10 Jan - 12:52

I don't know the ins and outs of it, was actually Andy Goode and Jim Hamilton I heard talking about it but they seemed to indicate it's what could be done .

Pienaar was the first name that came to mind when I heard it though

by Redman Thu 10 Jan - 13:33

Pienaar, from memory, wanted to start his career coaching the kids. To drop him into the 1st team might be too much too soon for both him and us.

He is a God and has contributed more to Ulster than almost anyone, but we can't just be having jobs for the boys. That's part of what got us into that mess.

Just seeing that he's on a 3 year contract so has 1 more to go after this one. He could retire though. Only issue with retirement is he could be on the hook if he then opted to play again. That's the point Montipeller have a claim against him for breach of contract.
Retirement is a real possibility though. From what I'd heard his family moved back to Northern Ireland and he's living with Francis Steyn at the minute. That was a while ago though, might have changed.

by geoff999rugby Thu 10 Jan - 21:47

That is correct

I think it is a given that he will spend a year with the Academy before taking on a leading coaching role.

Good for him to learn with them and great for them - what an inspirational figure
So the reality is he will not be a candidate for the 1st XV coaching team till 21-22 at the earliest

by Standulstermen Fri 11 Jan - 0:42

I was nearly certain Pienaars contract was 2yrs with the option of a third. Given that his family seemed to have moved back here I thought he would be back next season. Totally agree with him moving up through the ranks as a coach as opposed to being parachuted in. That said I don’t think Payne has done a bad job. It depends on the player.

by Cyril Fri 11 Jan - 0:49

I think the rumours of Pienaar to Saracens are more likely. Maybe to Ulster in a few years?

by geoff999rugby Fri 11 Jan - 9:29

He will play as long as he can but when he retires he will return to Ulster - he considers here as home

by clivemcl Fri 11 Jan - 9:36

I’m sure being away from family is not pleasant for him. As much as he loves rugby, I wouldn’t be surprised if he calls it a day as bring home with family maybe trumps rugby for him.

by **rodders** Fri 11 Jan - 11:47

geoff999rugby wrote:
As for Peel it is the worst kept secret that Pienaer wants to return to Ulster as a coach if possible and Ulster are interested.
When is his contract up - 2020 ??

Why would we replace Peel with Pienaar?

Yes we all love Pienaar here for his playing exploits but has no coaching experience, at least not comparable to Peels.

by clivemcl Fri 11 Jan - 12:04

I'm not arguing that he should go straight into coaching, but just pointing out that Payne did.
Unless Payne was doing some sort of coaching/training on the side before his injured year behind the scenes.

Perhaps it would be a case of Pienaar coming in along with Peel on the last year, as a bit of an understudy like Payne unofficially was.

by marty2086 Fri 11 Jan - 12:10

rodders wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
As for Peel it is the worst kept secret that Pienaer wants to return to Ulster as a coach if possible and Ulster are interested.
When is his contract up - 2020 ??

Why would we replace Peel with Pienaar?

Yes we all love Pienaar here for his playing exploits but has no coaching experience, at least not comparable to Peels.

How has our attack been the last few years under Peel though? At times the whole thing looks blunt and then you get games like Scarlets where it looks like we're a whole new team then we revert back to how it was before.

Peel isn't alone in that, under Doak it was the same and yet players rave about both of them

by marty2086 Fri 11 Jan - 12:14

Ulster team to play Racing 92, Heineken Champions Cup, Saturday 12th January, Kingspan Stadium (3.15pm):
(15-9): L Ludik; R Baloucoune, W Addison, S McCloskey, J Stockdale; B Burns, J Cooney;
(1-8): E O’Sullivan, R Best (captain), M Moore, A O’Connor, K Treadwell, S Reidy, J Murphy, M Coetzee;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, A Warwick, R Kane, I Nagle, N Timoney, D Shanahan, M Lowry, D Cave.

by marty2086 Fri 11 Jan - 12:22

RACING: B Dulin; S Zebo, V Vakatawa, H Chavancy, J Imhoff; F Russell, M Machenaud; G Gogichashvili, D Szarzewski, B Tameifuna; B le Roux, L Nakarawa; W Lauret, B Chouzenoux, A Claassen

T Baubigny, V Kakovin, G-H C-Reazel, B Palu, F Sanconnie, T Iribaren, O Klemenczak, B Volavola

by **rodders** Fri 11 Jan - 13:46

marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
As for Peel it is the worst kept secret that Pienaer wants to return to Ulster as a coach if possible and Ulster are interested.
When is his contract up - 2020 ??

Why would we replace Peel with Pienaar?

Yes we all love Pienaar here for his playing exploits but has no coaching experience, at least not comparable to Peels.

How has our attack been the last few years under Peel though? At times the whole thing looks blunt and then you get games like Scarlets where it looks like we're a whole new team then we revert back to how it was before.

Peel isn't alone in that, under Doak it was the same and yet players rave about both of them

Our attack has been the strongest part of our game and continues to be, despite a lack of ball carriers (Marcel and McCloskey aside) and decent platform up front, although there have been improvements this season in that regard.

by Redman Fri 11 Jan - 16:53

Not sure I completely agree with that. Our attacking stats probably look pretty good, and yes we've had no platform to work with in previous years (Coetzee and Henderson have really helped in that area this year) but I still think a good number of our tries are individual efforts.

The odd wonder try from Stockdale or Addison creating space out of nothing and us then breaking through. In terms of overall tries from the back which have been built from multiple phases? I think that'd be much less impressive.

by marty2086 Fri 11 Jan - 17:05

Our attacking game plan has hurt us all too often this season, the whole thing of Burns being basically just a link man to get someone outside him to do the work has put us on the back foot in too many games.

After the success of Addison getting through defences on the outside, I think it was Munster when we just kept looking for it and they saw it coming every time, on another day it would have been costly.

We've seen games where the game plan looks great and others when it looks like we've no idea what to do. There just doesn't seem to be a Plan B too often beyond as Redman points out to rely on individual skill

by geoff999rugby Fri 11 Jan - 23:32

No way has our attack been the strongest part of our game - as someone has said it has relied too much on individual brilliance usually Stockdale or Addison.

Our improvement in defence and in the maul has been the most impressive improvement

As to Pienaer he would coach the kids first not the first XV - something he has said himself

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