Glasgow and Edinburgh 21st Century Banter

First topic message reminder :

Something is going on this year

Both Glasgow and Edinburgh are playing quite well!

Is it a dream, am I imagining it, am I going to wake up in a cold sweat and find out that we are really cr*p again?

Someone please reassure me!!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Of those though Grigg is the only natural 13

Suppose Johnson could probably play either in a pinch but I see your point. My point wasn't that we shouldn't strengthen, just that its important to remember that we're always going to be a selling team and we may be better looking into the system than at established players. There's a young Scottish outside centre at Saints isn't there?

Glasgow probably do have to many decent quality centres on their books and they almost certainly will need to let one of them go.

If I was choosing, it would not be Jones. As RDW said, he is the natural 13 and the one who really does have the star dust. We will see it at some point this season and it could take us a long way.

In terms of value for money, Dunbar is the one under pressure, due to him struggling to stay fit, though he has been better this season. He is that bit older as well and might be more tempted by a pay day than some of the others.

McDowell looks a very good prospect at 12 and Kelly has been solid whenever he has had the chance, he plays 12/13.

Johnson is probably our first choice 12 when fit these days, but has not had the best of seasons so far. He is still young enough though and may still get capped by Scotland in the 6N, no-one has really nailed down the 12 shirt yet, though Horne has played well enough.

Jones is off to Tigers.

(Despite Jamie Lyall saying otherwise)

Well at least i'm confident enough to say it's done...... Oh dear I might have to eat some cake if this is wrong now.........

Welly wrote:Jones is off to Tigers.

(Despite Jamie Lyall saying otherwise)

Well at least i'm confident enough to say it's done...... Oh dear I might have to eat some cake if this is wrong now.........

That is not what we wanted to hear, but seems to be some inevitability about it. We are just getting priced out of the market for our players like that, all three of our star dust players hovered up now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46266901

I think we can read into this that HJ definitely won't be playing at Glasgow next year!

I do think it'd be very disappointing if Huw Jones were to choose to leave now, Hogg and Russell left after success and after years of giving everything. Jones has been pretty poor for Glasgow in general and really owes us something.
Based on Dave Rennie's interview you'd have to assume he is off, remember Rennie said Hogg wanted to stay and he still left whereas he's deliberately vague about Jones.

Mark Palmer said that he had been made an offer that would have made him one of the highest paid players at Scotstoun, which he turned down.

There is probably not much more we can do than that, we are just getting outbid unfortunately and you can't blame players for maximising on their careers, they can be over in a flash.

Anyone know the contract situation at Edinburgh?

You really get the feeling that this could be a pivotal period for Glasgow going forward - it's ok losing one or two of your best players, but the squad is in danger of being decimated. I'd take it as a given that Jones will leave, but if a huge bid comes in for somebody like Jonny Gray then Glasgow will be in big trouble.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Anyone know the contract situation at Edinburgh?

According to the Edinburgh forum, these are the players out of contract;

Edinburgh rugby forum wrote:8 backs:
Graham
Brown
Hoyland
Taylor
Baggott
Pyrgos
Kennedy
Fowles

14 forwards:
Sutherland
Dell
Ford
Cherry
Fenton
Berghan
Ceccarelli
McCallum
McKenzie
Gilchrist
Hunter-Hill
Watson
Hamilton
Miller

EST wrote:You really get the feeling that this could be a pivotal period for Glasgow going forward - it's ok losing one or two of your best players, but the squad is in danger of being decimated.  I'd take it as a given that Jones will leave, but if a huge bid comes in for somebody like Jonny Gray then Glasgow will be in big trouble.

Johnny is going to be next years problem and yes, we will likely struggle to keep him as well, it was touch and go last time for him as well.

EWT Spoons wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Anyone know the contract situation at Edinburgh?

According to the Edinburgh forum, these are the players out of contract;

Edinburgh rugby forum wrote:8 backs:
Graham
Brown
Hoyland
Taylor
Baggott
Pyrgos
Kennedy
Fowles

14 forwards:
Sutherland
Dell
Ford
Cherry
Fenton
Berghan
Ceccarelli
McCallum
McKenzie
Gilchrist
Hunter-Hill
Watson
Hamilton
Miller

Edinburgh have got a bit of work to do as well, the sooner they get a new MD in the better!

I think for Edinburgh it's a slightly easier story.  I can't imagine there would a huge number of offers on the table for the majority of the players listed.

There are some good players there, but outwith the pro14, I doubt many clubs will have seen a number of them playing (with a few exceptions).

Watson is a concern though.  I've heard he's looking to move on, but after the WC.  However, if he gets a decent offer from elsewhere at the end of this season, he might be inclined to go early.

EWT Spoons wrote:I think for Edinburgh it's a slightly easier story.  I can't imagine there would a huge number of offers on the table for the majority of the players listed.

There are some good players there, but outwith the pro14, I doubt many clubs will have seen a number of them playing (with a few exceptions).

Watson is a concern though.  I've heard he's looking to move on, but after the WC.  However, if he gets a decent offer from elsewhere at the end of this season, he might be inclined to go early.

Yeah, I don't think there are too many of those players who would be in huge demand. The major exception is obviously Watson and Gilchrist. I actually think that losing Watson wouldn't be the end of the world - there are some very good back row players coming through Edinburgh in Darge and Boyle and Richie could easily become first choice - there is Barclay there as well.

Jamie Lyall suggesting the SRU offer to HJ was in the region of 230K.

A pretty reasonable offer but not in the ball park of what he can earn down south unfortunately. As I said previously, we are just getting outbid unfortunately.

According to Robertson in the Daily Mail, it was 375K he was offered.

If that is real, it is a decent wedge and a shame he did not hang around for that. Makes you wonder how much Leicester are offering though?

I think the Scotsman are getting a bit ahead of themselves!

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/scotland/stafford-mcdowall-dreaming-of-world-cup-after-fine-start-at-glasgow-1-4832680

BigGee wrote:According to Robertson in the Daily Mail, it was 375K he was offered.

If that is real, it is a decent wedge and a shame he did not hang around for that. Makes you wonder how much Leicester are offering though?

Mark Palmer of the times (who are the official partner, or at least were) is quoting in the region of £230k. That's not to say he wasn't offered more on top of that, in performance bonuses etc that would bring it up to nearer the £375k. However, I don't think Hogg was being paid that much by the SRU so seems unlikely Jones would be offered that figure.

Either way it's a Poopie of money and it's worrying that we're no nowhere close in being able to keep our best players.

What will happen to Edinburgh if we lose McInally, Nel, Gilchrist, Watson etc. all at the same time!

Damn swear filter!

Tigers are losing a lot of centres, including Matt Toomua, so they need some quality and it wouldn't surprise me if this offer was in the 350k range. Jones is one of the most high profile young centres in the NH and is coming into his best years now.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Damn swear filter!

a 'poopieload', surely?

RDW_Scotland wrote:Either way it's a Poopie of money and it's worrying that we're no nowhere close in being able to keep our best players.

What will happen to Edinburgh if we lose McInally, Nel, Gilchrist, Watson etc. all at the same time!

Aye it's a fair whack of cash either way.

With that said, he's got no real attachment to Glasgow, other than playing there for a couple of years.

That's in contrast to the Edinburgh players you mention.

Rambo is an Edinburgh lad, who is club captain (currently) and I would imagine is very settled here, also he's not out of contract this year

Nel is likely too old now to really be moving, as he's not out of contract this summer, so will be 34 at least before his contract is up. Not many teams will be looking for a 34yo. Plus he's very settled where he is.

Gilco and Watson are possibly different stories. Gilco was tipped with a move previously prior to his injury and could easily move on, and from what I am told Watson wants a move. If we consider he's from Manchester he might want to move back down to England to be closer to family etc. Both of whom are out of contract this year.

However at lock we are looking reasonably strong with a fair few young lads coming through who look capable. Plus Gilco's injury record could work against him.

Watson as much as it would be a blow to lose him, we have cover. Not to the same level of quality, but we have players who can step up and take his position.

Tigers offer is closer to 300,000 than 350,000.

I have very little evidence for this assumption, but it seems to me that Jones has never really settled in Glasgow. He had a difficult first season, and never really broke through because of multiple injuries - off the back of that his form dipped and he copped some criticism from the Glasgow support. He has no ties to the city, so perhaps a bigger pay cheque and being closer to family makes it a pretty easy decision?

I think Gilchrist would be a huge loss for Edinburgh. There is a bit of a drop off below him and Toolis. Charmichael may fill that void but he's still not played after his breakthrough season last year so we don't know if he's going to be a good long term replacement.  Gilchrist is also huge which helps add ballast.

I know some on here don't rate him at all but I think it would be a huge loss.

The injury issues also seem to be well behind him - he's played loads of game over the last year and a half.

Welly wrote: Tigers offer is closer to 300,000 than 350,000.

Still a 100K or so more than the offer suggested by Jamie Lyall of 230K. You could see why he would find that attractive.

Maybe the other offer was conditional on appearances or plus bonus etc, or including his Scotland match fees. All speculation at the end of the day, however it does seem likely that his basic pay will be considerably more down south.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think Gilchrist would be a huge loss for Edinburgh. There is a bit of a drop off below him and Toolis. Charmichael may fill that void but he's still not played after his breakthrough season last year so we don't know if he's going to be a good long term replacement.  Gilchrist is also huge which helps add ballast.

I know some on here don't rate him at all but I think it would be a huge loss.

The injury issues also seem to be well behind him - he's played loads of game over the last year and a half.

Gilchrist issue was a broken arm that did not heal properly. Seems fine now and not something that should have any long term bearing.

EST wrote:I have very little evidence for this assumption, but it seems to me that Jones has never really settled in Glasgow.  He had a difficult first season, and never really broke through because of multiple injuries - off the back of that his form dipped and he copped some criticism from the Glasgow support.  He has no ties to the city, so perhaps a bigger pay cheque and being closer to family makes it a pretty easy decision?

There may be something in that, but it is a shame that he is having to make that call now with a whole lot of a very promising looking season ahead of him. He could really establish himself this year and then be off at the end of it.

BigGee wrote:

EST wrote:I have very little evidence for this assumption, but it seems to me that Jones has never really settled in Glasgow.  He had a difficult first season, and never really broke through because of multiple injuries - off the back of that his form dipped and he copped some criticism from the Glasgow support.  He has no ties to the city, so perhaps a bigger pay cheque and being closer to family makes it a pretty easy decision?

There may be something in that, but it is a shame that he is having to make that call now with a whole lot of a very promising looking season ahead of him. He could really establish himself this year and then be off at the end of it.

I know, Glasgow are playing well with everything still to play for - I really hope he stays. Just goes to show, both monetarily and in terms of being seen as a 'big team' in the eyes of the players - both the Scottish clubs, despite playing well and having very good coaches, are still not quite there.

BigGee wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think Gilchrist would be a huge loss for Edinburgh. There is a bit of a drop off below him and Toolis. Charmichael may fill that void but he's still not played after his breakthrough season last year so we don't know if he's going to be a good long term replacement.  Gilchrist is also huge which helps add ballast.

I know some on here don't rate him at all but I think it would be a huge loss.

The injury issues also seem to be well behind him - he's played loads of game over the last year and a half.

Gilchrist issue was a broken arm that did not heal properly. Seems fine now and not something that should have any long term bearing.

I rate Gilco highly and agree losing him would be a loss, and his injuries do seem to be behind him, but it might still put some off if they don't know the full details of it.

I would also say that Hunter-Hill has a good chance to step up to take his place (should he move on), he's only half an inch smaller than Gilco, but Wiki has him down as a stone lighter, but not sure how accurate that is now. I bumped into CHH prior to the fiji game and he's massive.

Edinburgh have a couple of academy second rows who have been playing in the international window as well, both seem to have made pretty decent debuts, but still probably a season or two shy of being the real deal yet.

Gilchrist would be a loss, but on a personal level, he is a player who having spent his whole career at Edinburgh, might well benefit from a move and try testing himself out somewhere else. That and a decent pay packet may well be an attractive option for him.

BigGee wrote:Edinburgh have a couple of academy second rows who have been playing in the international window as well, both seem to have made pretty decent debuts, but still probably a season or two shy of being the real deal yet.

Gilchrist would be a loss, but on a personal level, he is a player who having spent his whole career at Edinburgh, might well benefit from a move and try testing himself out somewhere else. That and a decent pay packet may well be an attractive option for him.

I terms of numbers, we're grand, with Toolis, Carmichael, Hunter-Hill, Hogson, Atikinson, McKenzie. But yeah a lot of those players are raw to say the least. With that said, if gilco was to go, it would be at the end of the season, which would give time for one of those young lads to stake a claim for a starting place alongside Toolis. Would prefer to keep Gilco though, obviously.

However true it was, i think his head was potentially turned by Toulon when they apparently offered him a contract prior to his injury. It might have been nothing concrete, but it probably made him think about life away from Edinburgh and I could easily see him looking further afield come contract time. However, I just can't see that many teams being keen to pick him up, and certainly not keen enough to offer him significantly more than he would be looking at if he stayed.

On the subject of transfers; Huw Jones may be moving on, not for the money nor due to an inability to settle in Glasgow (imagine!) but because young Paddy Kelly has only been playing 13 for Ayr this season. Another World Class outside centre via Ayr.

Well it certainly seems like Newcastle are confirming themselves as the unofficial 3rd Scottish team, with 6 players for their game this weekend SQ. There was a time not that long ago where you would struggle to get that many SQ players in an Edinburgh side (slight exaggeration)

Toonie said yesterday that Graham and Hardie (both playing tomorrow) are very much still in his thoughts. He suggested that Gary Graham still not at full fitness yet, having missed the first part of the season with injury and that is why he did not get capped this time around. If he goes off and gets back into last years form, he will be very much in the mix.

Good to see Hardie getting a start after a few games on the bench - suggests he's back to fitness too.

Watched rugby tonight this evening.

The other presenters were asking Ben Kay, who I believe is still on the board at Leicester, if they had signed Huw Jones. He said no, which may or may not be the truth, but he also made a few interesting points about the transfer market at the moment.

France is not going to be the destination for so many players as previously, as the French league has tightened up its rules about the number of French players in squads and salary caps.

He felt clubs were going to be reluctant to commit to players at top dollar currently because others were bound to come on to the market later on and there would be a bit of a glut which would make them cheaper. Because this is a WC year, there would be a greater turnover of big name players than usual. There was a list of about 6 current ABs for example who it is speculated would be coming north after the WC.

He felt that most clubs were just going to be working out their transfer strategy currently, by that I took it to mean working out which players they wanted to retain and then once that part of the jigsaw is complete, would begin to look for players to fill the gaps.

Now I have said that Leicester will probably announce HJ signing next week, but if not maybe there is still hope and if he is right as well, then we should not over pay for our players and try and get good value for our money.

https://theoffsideline.com/dave-rennie-glasgow-warriors-contract-extension/

DR looks like he is going to be the first piece of the Glasgow jigsaw to fall into place!

Some good news at last!

Positive news, but a 12 month deal isn't exactly committing long term to the club like Cockers has done!

You can't blame him though - I'm sure there'll be some big jobs waiting for him back home or elsewhere in Europe.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Positive news, but a 12 month deal isn't exactly committing long term to the club like Cockers has done!

You can't blame him though - I'm sure there'll be some big jobs waiting for him back home or elsewhere in Europe.

He wants a good international job and he deserves one. He will just wait and see what is going to be on offer after the WC, if nothing comes along he may sign on for a bit longer. We will have done well to have had him on board for 3 years at the end of the day.

If he goes, don't be surprised if Mike Blair is the next cab off the rank. He will have served his time by then.

Kenny Murray has been there by far the longest - wonder if he'll be pushing for head coach. Or Matt Taylor?

Edinburgh game - https://www.606v2.com/t68204-pro14-dragons-vs-edinburgh-25-11#3757058

Mark Palmers article on the newly formed Scottish players Union. It all seems to be put together very professionally. Swinson, who is training to become a solicitor post rugby, Gilchrist and Harley are the players reps. This is surely not something the SRU can ignore.

MP also tweeted that the Scottish players donated £10,000 of their match fees to Doddie's charity as well. Fair play to them for that as well.



The newly formed Scottish players’ association, Rugby Players Scotland, are still waiting to hear when the SRU will sit down with them.

A request for a meeting with Mark Dodson was delivered nine days ago, and if the Murrayfield top brass have had their hands full with the autumn Tests, it is to be hoped they can now find a slot for the representatives of a body whose formation was approved by 100% of the players from Edinburgh, Glasgow, Scotland Women and Scotland Sevens.

The public face of the association is Tim Swinson, but the operational side will fall to Bill Mitchell, the HR specialist who will be interim chief executive for the first year and provide business support through the Frontline management consultancy firm. Swinson, a lawyer-in-training, and fellow directors Grant Gilchrist and Rob Harley are not short of intellectual capacity to go with their rugby nous, but it’s easy to imagine how life could become difficult for players who raise their heads above the parapet and meet the eyes of their employers.


Mitchell’s role will be to run interference for the players while convincing the SRU that this proposition is both credible and necessary. Murrayfield have said they “welcome” plans for an association which brings Scotland into line with every other Tier 1 country, but as recently as March, Dodson said the SRU were already providing “everything a players’ association would provide and we are doing it for free.”

While Mitchell, a former global head of HR for BlackRock investment management, does not seem a wantonly antagonistic sort, there is also a sense of purpose that suggests he will make himself heard.




“This is going to happen. Rugby Players Scotland will exist as an entity,” he says, noting the intention for it to be self-funding. “It’s about giving the players access to independent support from someone who is not their employer. What it’s not is a challenge or a threat to the SRU, and we’re not asking them to fund it. What we’re saying is that if you want real employee engagement, the sort that drives alignment as well as commitment, the best way is to have mutual accountability rather than imposed authority.”

The association’s main goal is to be recognised as the body responsible for collective bargaining on pay agreements. With the Scotland team, individual players — Greig Laidlaw was one — have previously been mandated to act for the group, and latterly the task has been outsourced to Simon Keogh, the former Leinster winger who runs the players’ union in Ireland.



–– ADVERTISEMENT ––








Acknowledging that the issue will be even more relevant in a World Cup year, Mitchell believes a single Scots-based representative with knowledge of the wider market is key to avoiding disputes like the one that saw Glasgow players at loggerheads with the SRU for almost a year over bonuses relating to their qualification for the Champions Cup knockouts in 2017.

“They got a solution, but it took 10 months,” he says. “You’ve got to remember that professional sport is an environment where players are always looking over their shoulders as it is, and expecting them to also handle that side of things puts them in a difficult position.

“We’ll be looking to agree a memorandum of understanding with the SRU that makes Rugby Players Scotland responsible for collective bargaining. That’s what the players want.”

The association is already lining up service providers for the education, career planning and counselling support they intend to be part of the offering. Earlier this year, the SRU launched their own “comprehensive player support programme” called “Rugby For Life”, a winner at the recent HR Network National Awards.

Again Mitchell stresses the intention is to “augment, not disrespect” what’s available in-house, but is in no doubt about the need for “totally independent support”, particularly with disciplinary issues and mental health.

“Professional sportspeople don’t want to show weakness, or what might be perceived as weakness, to anyone on the inside,” he says. “If you’re seven foot tall and built like a bear, it’s not the easiest thing to say, ‘I go into a black fug after a game on a Friday night’.

“The players are on short-term contracts where it’s totally performance-oriented. They are used to living in that environment, but they need to be able to decompress. We want to work with the SRU HR department and let players know they can access totally independent support as well.”

This is not the first attempt at a Scottish players’ association. Jim Hay, a former Scotland hooker, was at the forefront of a previous endeavour 13 years ago, and for a time the players even had a representative on the SRU council as recommended in the 2005 Dunlop report.

Those same governance structures are under review, but Mitchell is confident the rep role will be reinstated. He is also clear about the limits of his own involvement (“part of my job is to find my successor”) and says he has no personal ambitions to further through it.

“Rugby is a really important part of my life, but I want it to stay a part of it,” says the 63-year-old, who lives in the Highlands and referees in the Caledonia leagues. “There is also no leverage where I’m concerned. I’m doing Ross Sutherland on Saturday — if someone says, ‘Tell him he’s not now’, I’ll say, ‘Thank God, at least I don’t have to drive 75 miles!’

“My job will be to take the flak away from the players — if there is any flak — and let them concentrate on what they’re there to do, which is play rugby. I’m there to represent them as we work to create a coherent industrial relations climate that is clear, consistent and mutually beneficial.”

Edinburgh schedule ‘ridiculous’
Depleted Edinburgh today hope to park concerns over scheduling and absent players to record a first away win of the season against Dragons.

Richard Cockerill’s side travel to Rodney Parade without seven key Scotland forwards, Fiji star Bill Mata and back-three firework Blair Kinghorn. Their head coach is unhappy about Edinburgh having two away fixtures in five days. The capital club face Munster in Cork on Friday, and to exacerbate matters the kick-off for today’s clash was moved from 1pm to 5.30pm.

’Whoever scheduled this in the Pro14 needs their head looking at. It’s ridiculous,’ said Cockerill.

Edinburgh are able to welcome back Scotland players Darcy Graham and Ben Toolis, the forward listed to start in the unfamiliar role of blindside flanker. Cockerill’s men have lost at Ospreys, Ulster, Leinster, Montpellier and Zebre so far this term.

■ Dragons v Edinburgh, today, kick-off 5.30pm, live on Premier Sports and S4C

The Rugby Paper now saying that Huw Jones has changed his mind and is going to stay at Glasgow.

Maybe they have upped his offer a bit, there did seem to be some discrepancies between what the journos were saying he had been offered. The top end of the range seemed a very good deal to me and probably in the ball park of what he would have gotten down south.

Maybe DR confirming his situation has had a bearing as well.

Either way it is still a rumour and one that it will be good to put to bed either way. Now the internatoionals are out of the way, we will likely get to the bottom of it.

Being a Glasgow fan, or Scotland fan, is a bit like being one of Le Carre's Kremlinologists. No-one ever really says what they mean and we're always looking for hints and subtexts.


I read DR's latest comments to be, "Well we've made him our top offer and he's looking at other offers. He'll get back to us and life will go on either way."

It would appear to me that Jones' agent planted the rumours about Tiggers to flag up that he might move if anyone wanted to meet that price. It is beginning to look like no-one bettered Glasgow's offer. That's fine by me: he's a class act.

jimbopip wrote:Being a Glasgow fan, or Scotland fan, is a bit like being one of Le Carre's Kremlinologists. No-one ever really says what they mean and we're always looking for hints and subtexts.


I read DR's latest comments to be, "Well we've made him our top offer and he's looking at other offers. He'll get back to us and life will go on either way."

It would appear to me that Jones' agent planted the rumours about Tiggers to flag up that he might move if anyone wanted to meet that price. It is beginning to look like no-one bettered Glasgow's offer. That's fine by me: he's a class act.

Welly, on the transfers thread seem to think that Glasgow broke into the piggy bank and found a few more pennies to chuck into the offer.

Either way, I am with Jimbo and will be very glad if we can keep him. His best games in a Glasgow shirt are still to come.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46338167

Cockers understandably unhappy about some of the reffing yesterday, but even more unhappy by the 4.5 day turnaround between a game in Wales then a game in Ireland against Munster. Given that we're going to be without any of our internationals we're basically going to have to put the same 23 out.

Could be a messy one!

RDW_Scotland wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46338167

Cockers understandably unhappy about some of the reffing yesterday, but even more unhappy by the 4.5 day turnaround between a game in Wales then a game in Ireland against Munster.  Given that we're going to be without any of our internationals we're basically going to have to put the same 23 out.

Could be a messy one!

That sounds more like the old Cockers!

I wonder how long it is before he completely loses it in a post match interview as well. He has, by his own standards, been very restrained whilst in Edinburgh.

BigGee wrote:That sounds more like the old Cockers!

I wonder how long it is before he completely loses it in a post match interview as well. He has, by his own standards, been very restrained whilst in Edinburgh.

Must be all the yoga!