You know your backrow is unbalanced when......

...... you concede 10 penalties at the breakdown when in possession due to poor technique and lack of speed
...... things look infinitely better when a limited player like James Haskell comes on
...... your inside centre has won the most turnovers
...... clearing out and guard duties are being fulfilled by your fly half
...... scrum half has to consistently dig the ball out



More reasons welcomed

When George Ford is the only man trying to shift Bastereud off the ball

.......You make the same mistake as the previous 2 coaches and pick Lawes at No6.

........you play Robshaw at 7.

........You select an unfit Hughes at 8.

Your Granny can beat all of them over 100 metres

.....it has its' own thread

I cannot fathom how England with all their backrow options can't field a tackler at 6, a fetcher at 7 and a carrier at 8.

I actually think Scotland's backrow is too far geared to work the breakdown. We effectively have 2 7s and a 6 when we play Barcs, The Mish and Wilson. I think Barclay and Watson are brilliant on the Flanks but I do feel we missed someone like Strauss or Beattie circa 2010 in terms of lacking a big bruising ball carrying number 8. I think Bradbury will fill that mold nicely as he matures.

England's balance is all at sea though too much power not enough pace and skill on the deck.

...... when Scotland beat you!


(sorry, couldn't resist! Scotland were obviously well worth their victory )

BamBam wrote:When George Ford is the only man trying to shift Bastereud off the ball

Still cant stop laughing at that one.

That just epitomises Englands championship.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I cannot fathom how England with all their backrow options can't field a tackler at 6, a fetcher at 7 and a carrier at 8.

I actually think Scotland's backrow is too far geared to work the breakdown. We effectively have 2 7s and a 6 when we play Barcs, The Mish and Wilson. I think Barclay and Watson are brilliant on the Flanks but I do feel we missed someone like Strauss or Beattie circa 2010 in terms of lacking a big bruising ball carrying number 8. I think Bradbury will fill that mold nicely as he matures.

England's balance is all at sea though too much power not enough pace and skill on the deck.

We can ...its just Jones has elected not to pick them and work on a different strategy.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:When George Ford is the only man trying to shift Bastereud off the ball

Still cant stop laughing at that one.

That just epitomises Englands championship.

Is that tactical though, not committing men to the breakdown? I seriously doubt that the fitness and pace of the English backrow is that much lower than those who play in the top14 in france?!!!

Too many hybrids in the backrow. Robshaw isn't a classic 7 and Lawes isn't a backrow forward. I'm not sure what Hughes is at all? Anyone know?

To be fair when injuries aren't crippling the team a backrow of:

6 Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. Billy V

Simmons on the bench looks pretty good to me.

Robshaw might not be a classic 7 but he's been outstanding.

Its not Only about the back row though. The entire pack is not performing to the level required and doing the roles they should be.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:To be fair when injuries aren't crippling the team a backrow of:

6 Robshaw
7. Underhill / Curry
8. Billy V

Simmons on the bench looks pretty good to me.

Fixed that for you RR

Curry is outstanding.

It also annoys me that Gary graham has just be completely ignored!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Robshaw might not be a classic 7 but he's been outstanding.

Its not Only about the back row though. The entire pack is not performing to the level required and doing the roles they should be.

I agree he is a great player. Itoje and Lawes have been poor IMO. Hughes offers nothing and the rest of the pack aren't getting stuck in enough.

Robshaw is an amazing player, and at times it looked like he was taking on the whole Scottish and French backrow by himself.

Itoje has bombed this season IMO he had a season last year but compare his workrate to somebody like Launchberry or Johnny Gray nowadays and he's not playing very well. Lions Hangover? Fatigue? Believeing his own hype? Something is up because he is nowhere near as potent as he was last year.

I drop Itoje and put Lawes and Launchberry at lock and try and get some dynamism in the backrow.

I think Itoje is missing Kruis beside him. They worked extremely well together.

I'd start them v Ireland.

Hughes is on last chance saloon. He's in to make big carries and be aggressive. He's simply not doing that.

When you pick a backrow which has meant to have power but doesn't fit even that criteria....


When a 19 stone opposition centre is more effective at the breakdown than your entire backrow....

It can't be understated how much of a loss Billy has been

Bambam it's true. England heavily rely on Billy but even he couldn't stop Ireland beating us last year....

I think England underestimated how good France are at the breakdown. They shaded Ireland too in Paris at the breakdown and that is Ireland's strength. Camara is a great player.

If we solely rely on one player (Billy) then we're in serious trouble.

The pack needs to be balanced. Power, technique, aggression, intelligence.
Its lacking at the moment.

Jones has basically just selected Lancaster's pack. Is it not time for him to rejig the forward pack?

Camara is a great player

You're not wrong there - he's a beaut.

Collapse2005 wrote:Jones has basically just selected Lancaster's pack. Is it not time for him to rejig the forward pack?

A few tweaks yes its esential...but the question still remains why aren't they doing the jobs they were previously.

I'm no international coach, nor is James Haskell, but he identified the issue after the France match but not sure if he will be listened to.

The AP is about big bruising forwards and in that league there is no competition at the breakdown. Teams are set up to not put numbers into the breakdown but spread out to provide a big defensive line that is difficult to get through. If you watch a jeff game, it flows like a tide. One team has possession for a period then the other team has possession for a period and this goes back and forth throughout the game.

Did anyone see the Jaugares vs Warrethas game at the weekend? That was manic at one point where a team would have two or three phases of play and would then lose the ball at the breakdown and the other team would then have a few plays then they'd lose it. The pace was ferocious and how on earth the ref managed to keep up with things was beyond me!

The Pro 14 is a mix of the two styles.

And for those who love factoids - Most turnovers in the AP this season so far is Blair Cowan (London Irish) with 16. Most turnovers in the Pro 14 is Tadhg Beirne (Scarlets) with 36

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Jones has basically just selected Lancaster's pack. Is it not time for him to rejig the forward pack?

A few tweaks yes its esential...but the question still remains why aren't they doing the jobs they were previously.

To be fair to England I don't think there is any need for panic. One of their main issues seems to be that some of their top players aren't performing such as Itoje. A rest may be more appropriate than a rejig.

Its not just about opposition forcing the turnovers though TT.

We are losing the ball due to poor tactics because we are not cleaning out properly..securing the ball.

I mean its an extreme example...but as metioned above...Ford v Basteraud. It actusally happened...HOW ON EARTH.

There was one stage we were 5/10 m out from their try line and going forward and I think we had two players trying to secure ball and lost it.

WHY was the whole flipping pack not smashing through making sure we kept the ball!!??

Another example was Launchbury v Ryan Wilson in the Scotland game.
Launchbury was stood on the ruck with his head down, half asleep...Wilson noticed it and absolutely smashed him out the way...and Scotland got the turnover. That is simply unforgivable at this level!

tigertattie wrote:I'm no international coach, nor is James Haskell, but he identified the issue after the France match but not sure if he will be listened to.

The AP is about big bruising forwards and in that league there is no competition at the breakdown. Teams are set up to not put numbers into the breakdown but spread out to provide a big defensive line that is difficult to get through. If you watch a jeff game, it flows like a tide. One team has possession for a period then the other team has possession for a period and this goes back and forth throughout the game.

Did anyone see the Jaugares vs Warrethas game at the weekend? That was manic at one point where a team would have two or three phases of play and would then lose the ball at the breakdown and the other team would then have a few plays then they'd lose it. The pace was ferocious and how on earth the ref managed to keep up with things was beyond me!

The Pro 14 is a mix of the two styles.

And for those who love factoids - Most turnovers in the AP this season so far is Blair Cowan (London Irish) with 16. Most turnovers in the Pro 14 is Tadhg Beirne (Scarlets) with 36

I like that stat. Qudos.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its not just about opposition forcing the turnovers though TT.

We are losing the ball due to poor tactics because we are not cleaning out properly..securing the ball.

I mean its an extreme example...but as metioned above...Ford v Basteraud. It actusally happened...HOW ON EARTH.

There was one stage we were 5/10 m out from their try line and going forward and I think we had two players trying to secure ball and lost it.

WHY was the whole flipping pack not smashing through making sure we kept the ball!!??

Another example was Launchbury v Ryan Wilson in the Scotland game.
Launchbury was stood on the ruck with his head down, half asleep...Wilson noticed it and absolutely smashed him out the way...and Scotland got the turnover. That is simply unforgivable at this level!

It wasn't always like this though. When we played you guys at Twickenham last year our guys got hit so hard their children will probably have to pass HIAs when they are born. There has been none of that aggression, dynamism, passion, heart whatever you want to call it on display since the match against Wales.

It's almost as if everyone bar Robshaw has given up on work at the contact area. Dan Cole isn't even a formidable scrummager anymore so I'd drop him too. For me the whole pack needs a kick up the jeer, because you'll never get your hands on the ball if you guys are as passive at the contact area on Saturday against Ireland as you have been in the last 2 games.

That's what I am saying...all the aggression, fight, power and brutality has gone. Simply disappeared.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
I mean its an extreme example...but as metioned above...Ford v Basteraud. It actusally happened...HOW ON EARTH.

Every player on the pitch should be capable of clearing out, it's a basic skill, wingers manage it fine.

If the idea of a 10 clearing out is a joke, you need a new 10.

If I was an England fan my biggest concern would be that England seem to be nearing the twilight stage of the usual evolution of Eddie Jones coached teams just before everything totally falls apart without any resolution.

mid_gen wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
I mean its an extreme example...but as metioned above...Ford v Basteraud. It actusally happened...HOW ON EARTH.

Every player on the pitch should be capable of clearing out, it's a basic skill, wingers manage it fine.

If the idea of a 10 clearing out is a joke, you need a new 10.

To be fair the point Geordie is making is obvious... Or at least I thought it was.

If Finn Russel was trying to clear out Basteraud I'd have a lot of questions:

1) Where is Barclay and why is he not clearing out Basteraud?
2) Where is Watson and why is he not clearing out Basteraud?
3) Where is Johnny Gray and why is he not clearing out Basteraud?
4) Where is McInally and why is he not clearing out Basteraud?
5) Where is (insert Scottish forward name in here) and why is he not clearing out Basteraud?

Basteraud is a unit and I'd never expect my flyhalf to be trying to clear him out of a ruck!!! Especially after only a couple of phases! He needs to be in the line shaping the attack and leave the grunt work to the forwards!

It's Bastareaud.

Bastareaud.

Feel free to copy and paste if you want, or alternatively copy and paste it from any article ever written about him.

(Not aimed at you in particular Radge, I've just reached the end of my tether with it!)

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's Bastareaud.

Bastareaud.

Feel free to copy and paste if you want, or alternatively copy and paste it from every article ever written about him.

(Not aimed at you in particular Radge, I've just reached the end of my tether with it!)

Basteraud
Bastardio
Bastareaud
Bastarow

The Fat Homophobic French Centre

Thanks Luckless I appreciate your input

Collapse2005 wrote:If I was an England fan my biggest concern would be that England seem to be nearing the twilight stage of the usual evolution of Eddie Jones coached teams just before everything totally falls apart without any resolution.

You may be right, but it would be unfair to Jones to not give him the opportunity to make things right, even if he has failed to rectify mistakes in previous roles.

I posted before the France game that only when tied by injury has Eddie played 3 second rows, so I was surprised with Haskell and Simmonds back in the squad to see him line up with Lawes at 6.

With Lawes out injured and Armand called up, you'd think we will play a proper back row, and hopefully that will at least start to address our problems against Ireland.

Hopefully Jones will use the summer to rest up a few of our players, and also try out some fresher faces and a new style of play. History tells us Jones won't do this, he'll continue to flog the same players and stick to his belief in his system. If Jones goes down the second route, he must deliver a series win in South Africa, or at least show more promise than we have done in this tournament.

Let's remember that Jones has repeatedly said he wants to go into the World Cup as the number one team in the world. If he's serious about this, then he needs to start the turnaround here against Ireland and take back 2nd.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mid_gen wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
I mean its an extreme example...but as metioned above...Ford v Basteraud. It actusally happened...HOW ON EARTH.

Every player on the pitch should be capable of clearing out, it's a basic skill, wingers manage it fine.

If the idea of a 10 clearing out is a joke, you need a new 10.

To be fair the point Geordie is making is obvious... Or at least I thought it was.

If Finn Russel was trying to clear out Basteraud I'd have a lot of questions:

1) Where is Barclay and why is he not clearing out Basteraud?
2) Where is Watson and why is he not clearing out Basteraud?
3) Where is Johnny Gray and why is he not clearing out Basteraud?
4) Where is McInally and why is he not clearing out Basteraud?
5) Where is (insert Scottish forward name in here) and why is he not clearing out Basteraud?

Basteraud is a unit and I'd never expect my flyhalf to be trying to clear him out of a ruck!!! Especially after only a couple of phases! He needs to be in the line shaping the attack and leave the grunt work to the forwards!

Exactly RR

And why is Ford on his own trying it.

Yes everyone these days must ruck, but not on their own...Ford should have had support from some heftier chaps.

When you see Basteraud clamping over the ball you know you need some heavy duty personnel to move it!

Ah well, perhaps the tactic was to cause "The Mighty Bast" to burst out laughing at the concept of ickle George clearing him out, causing a sprung rib and instant replacement?

robbo277 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:If I was an England fan my biggest concern would be that England seem to be nearing the twilight stage of the usual evolution of Eddie Jones coached teams just before everything totally falls apart without any resolution.

You may be right, but it would be unfair to Jones to not give him the opportunity to make things right, even if he has failed to rectify mistakes in previous roles.

I posted before the France game that only when tied by injury has Eddie played 3 second rows, so I was surprised with Haskell and Simmonds back in the squad to see him line up with Lawes at 6.

With Lawes out injured and Armand called up, you'd think we will play a proper back row, and hopefully that will at least start to address our problems against Ireland.

Hopefully Jones will use the summer to rest up a few of our players, and also try out some fresher faces and a new style of play. History tells us Jones won't do this, he'll continue to flog the same players and stick to his belief in his system. If Jones goes down the second route, he must deliver a series win in South Africa, or at least show more promise than we have done in this tournament.

Let's remember that Jones has repeatedly said he wants to go into the World Cup as the number one team in the world. If he's serious about this, then he needs to start the turnaround here against Ireland and take back 2nd.

Couldn't argue with any of that.

Its pretty clear that England will throw the kitchen sink at Ireland and really look to go out and get a comprehensive win. If they don't then something must be seriously wrong.

Collapse2005 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:If I was an England fan my biggest concern would be that England seem to be nearing the twilight stage of the usual evolution of Eddie Jones coached teams just before everything totally falls apart without any resolution.

You may be right, but it would be unfair to Jones to not give him the opportunity to make things right, even if he has failed to rectify mistakes in previous roles.

I posted before the France game that only when tied by injury has Eddie played 3 second rows, so I was surprised with Haskell and Simmonds back in the squad to see him line up with Lawes at 6.

With Lawes out injured and Armand called up, you'd think we will play a proper back row, and hopefully that will at least start to address our problems against Ireland.

Hopefully Jones will use the summer to rest up a few of our players, and also try out some fresher faces and a new style of play. History tells us Jones won't do this, he'll continue to flog the same players and stick to his belief in his system. If Jones goes down the second route, he must deliver a series win in South Africa, or at least show more promise than we have done in this tournament.

Let's remember that Jones has repeatedly said he wants to go into the World Cup as the number one team in the world. If he's serious about this, then he needs to start the turnaround here against Ireland and take back 2nd.

Couldn't argue with any of that.

Its pretty clear that England will throw the kitchen sink at Ireland and really look to go out and get a comprehensive win. If they don't then something must be seriously wrong.

This is my biggest concern...will they?? We've seen very little fire and fight this 6n...!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its not just about opposition forcing the turnovers though TT.

We are losing the ball due to poor tactics because we are not cleaning out properly..securing the ball.

I mean its an extreme example...but as metioned above...Ford v Basteraud. It actusally happened...HOW ON EARTH.

There was one stage we were 5/10 m out from their try line and going forward and I think we had two players trying to secure ball and lost it.

WHY was the whole flipping pack not smashing through making sure we kept the ball!!??

Another example was Launchbury v Ryan Wilson in the Scotland game.
Launchbury was stood on the ruck with his head down, half asleep...Wilson noticed it and absolutely smashed him out the way...and Scotland got the turnover. That is simply unforgivable at this level!

I think we are both making the same argument Mr Falcon. Just form different sides.

I'm saying in the AP, games are played where the breakdown is forgotten about. Once a boy goes to deck, everyone almost stops and goes, "oh, I need to A: form a line across the pitch if I'm a defender or B: I need to stand back and get ready to get the ball or run a dummy line if I'm an attacker"

It's a chicken and egg thing. Are the attacking forwards not clearing out the rucks in the AP because they've been told to stand off and get ready to get ball or run a dummy and not go into the ruck or are they not clearing out the rucks because their opposition is not competing for the ball at the breakdown so they don't have to?

To me, the big issue for England is that the players are either over coached and unable to think for themselves or they've not been given free reign to assess things for themselves. Examples are Italy last year not putting anyone into the breakdown. The whole first half England just had no answer and it needed the coaches to tell them how to get round it.

Again this year, you mentioned Lauchbury getting bashed. It looks like he is standing over the breakdown and thinking to himself "I shouldn't be here, I should be standing over there waiting for the ball". He then looks at where he's coached to be and SMACK, he's bashed by Wilson.

...tectonic plates move faster than your man wearing '7'.

...Nigel Owens sends you a card saying "in deepest sympathy".

...John Inverdale cannot find any way to complement it.

Jones has taken a miss step with strategy and selections.

... the best back row for the last two years only gets called up for the last game
(Has this one been done? Can't be arsed to read back)