6 NATIONS 2018 - England v Wales build up/Match/Autopsy Thread - 12-6

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

England v Wales (The Big One) ITV 16:45pm


So much rests on this game. Wales look strong, England did enough in Rome to look comfortable.

Really hard to see how this wil play out.

Discuss.

Ref - Jérôme Garcès (France)

Head to head - Played - 130 Eng 61 - Wales 57 - Drawn 12




England Team

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 65 caps) 14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 29 caps) 13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 36 caps) 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 54 caps) 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 30 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 41 caps) 9 Danny Care (Harlequins 77 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 45 caps) 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 90 caps) 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 78 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 48 caps) 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 15 caps) 6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 62 caps) 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 60 caps) 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens 21 caps) 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs 1 cap) 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 6 caps) 19 George Kruis (Saracens 22 caps)  20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 4 caps) 21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 27 caps) 22 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 9 caps) 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 24 caps)




Wales team
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets); Josh Adams (Worcester), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Steff Evans (Scarlets); Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys capt), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), George North (Northampton).


NO TRY - https://mobile.twitter.com/mattyjwills/status/962615635321737217/video/1

[RiscaGame]

Me watching the England vs Wales thread descend into madness...

It is just madness as you say. There was a rugby match between England and Wales yesterday, and there is more than a couple of things to write about, well at least I think so.

The bad thing is that the moderation is very one sided. Gwlad gets bans but nothing happens to TightHEAD or Cyril. Why???

Given that you don’t have to be Sherlock Holmes to know who tighthead is, it’s a little disappointing he’s allowed to act like he does given that he has been banned three times previously. Cyril is fine though.

[Guest]

So...you want to acknowledge yet that the link you posted doesn't show him spitting on the player? You complain about wumming yet to post that and them not to walk it back when you realise that it's not what it appears to be is a little wummish in itself?

Ummm... it DOES look like him spitting to me. That’s the point of posting it! How am I WUMming?

I need another camera angle that everyone else seems to have seen. Just post it here so I can see what you’re talking about and I can apologise and retract my claim.

[nathan]

I think the latter is the same for posters from all

[TightHEAD]

Has a Welsh player moaned about being spat on by the England Captain?

If not then there is no case to answer.

Fans can be so bitter these days after a defeat, it's just a game after all.

[TightHEAD]

Id suggest a MOD checks someone's IP address as clearly they are a banned poster returning.

[No 7&1/2]

You're wumming as you know you're wrong now and didn't bother to check before posting. Not noticed you act like this before don't know why you're doing so now.

[Guest]

I’m honestly not being bitter. See my post this morning where I congratulated England and said where I thought we lost it. I just saw this video online, thought it was going to be a talking point and Hartley up to his old tricks, and posted it. That’s what we do on this forum. Don’t make this into something it’s not.

[Guest]

Id suggest a MOD checks someone's IP address as clearly they are a banned poster returning.

Who???

[No 7&1/2]

But you've been told your wrong oracle. You didn't bother to check and now refuse to walk it back or even double check. An kld wum trick. Post a lie then appear reasonable asking for clarification while keeping the lie alive.

[nathan]

The old posted something nice earlier so I can't possibly be up to something after trick eh

[No 7&1/2]

Prove me wrong do a little research yourself rather than spreading falsehoods.

[Guest]

Honestly guys, I think you’ve got me confused with Gwlad or Mikey. I didn’t make the video. I watched it, thought it looked like him spitting and thus a talking point, and reposted it on here. I haven’t seen another angle and can’t find one anywhere. If he didn’t do it then great.

[SecretFly]

This thread certainly has gone a little Willy Wonka in logic terms. So the pic finally suits it.

[nathan]

What was the character that always lied?

[TightHEAD]

Did anyone watch England womens awesome performance yesterday?

Massive gap in class.

[TightHEAD]

I think the video is a fake. That's what people are saying on social media about Steff Evans knock on before the try that never was?

[RDW]

So this thread has exploded with reports in the last hour or so - I'm going to lock it for tonight and open it again tomorrow when hopefully a rugby discussion will emerge - I think everyone needs a little cool down.

As an aside, if you think someone is a returning banned poster it is always best to report them or contact us directly as public accusations always lead to the downfall of threads. Also I'd say 99.9% of the time that person has already been checked and verified.

[TightHEAD]

Morning everyone.

What a game that was defensively from both teams.

[TightHEAD]

It was a bit like a boxing match, Wales roped a dope and their fitness was better than Englands in the last 10 mins.

England picked and go'd far too much and Wales found it easy to containe and spoil the ball by either diving over the top or hands on the floor.

[LordDowlais]

I posted this on the England thread, perhaps it need to be here now that this one has been unlocked.

Sorry lads, the match thread seems to have gone, so I can only post on here. Well done England on the win, but it was a hell of a lot closer than I thought, Wales were much fitter, we just could not finish anything off, the sooner Rob Howley is gone and somebody like Stephen Jones is in the better.

That was a chance missed by Wales, but there are positives to take from it. We will get you next time. Very Happy

P.S lets not talk about the TMO. Whistle

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Win is a win.

However the reality is that while Jones's pragmatism might have short term benefits, it does incur longer term failings with its limited ambition.

Our poorly executed in-field kicking strategy might be justifiable given the poor conditions. However, we did the same against Italy in the sunshine and give away so much valuable possession that we lose the opportunity to attack and in so doing heap pressure on ourselves. Ford has done this for years and has always been rubbish at it. What on earth is Jones thinking?

Hopefully that will be our worst performance and with the return of injured and suspended players we may start to open our eyes and play whats in front of us.

Your poorly-executed kicking strategy wasn't half as poorly-executed as ours!

[lostinwales]

I posted this on the England thread, perhaps it need to be here now that this one has been unlocked.

Sorry lads, the match thread seems to have gone, so I can only post on here. Well done England on the win, but it was a hell of a lot closer than I thought, Wales were much fitter, we just could not finish anything off, the sooner Rob Howley is gone and somebody like Stephen Jones is in the better.

That was a chance missed by Wales, but there are positives to take from it. We will get you next time. Very Happy

P.S lets not talk about the TMO. Whistle

England did tire. To be honest I thought Wales did too. There was that spell when they were finally getting some headway but they always looked laboured trying to exploit the initial breaks.

[LondonTiger]

Win is a win.

However the reality is that while Jones's pragmatism might have short term benefits, it does incur longer term failings with its limited ambition.

Our poorly executed in-field kicking strategy might be justifiable given the poor conditions. However, we did the same against Italy in the sunshine and give away so much valuable possession that we lose the opportunity to attack and in so doing heap pressure on ourselves. Ford has done this for years and has always been rubbish at it. What on earth is Jones thinking?

Hopefully that will be our worst performance and with the return of injured and suspended players we may start to open our eyes and play whats in front of us.

Your poorly-executed kicking strategy wasn't half as poorly-executed as ours!

Ah but George Ford is not Danny Cipriani - therefore everything he does is rubbish.

[Scottrf]

I did think a few of Ford's kicks were wasteful at best. Improved in the second half though.

[lostinwales]

Win is a win.

However the reality is that while Jones's pragmatism might have short term benefits, it does incur longer term failings with its limited ambition.

Our poorly executed in-field kicking strategy might be justifiable given the poor conditions. However, we did the same against Italy in the sunshine and give away so much valuable possession that we lose the opportunity to attack and in so doing heap pressure on ourselves. Ford has done this for years and has always been rubbish at it. What on earth is Jones thinking?

Hopefully that will be our worst performance and with the return of injured and suspended players we may start to open our eyes and play whats in front of us.

Your poorly-executed kicking strategy wasn't half as poorly-executed as ours!

Ah but George Ford is not Danny Cipriani - therefore everything he does is rubbish.

We are very lucky that there is no Wasps hooker competing for the England shirt. Can you imagine...

[beshocked]

Another point is that Danny Care didn't really look comfortable with the box kicking strategy, he's not that kind of player.

Wigglesworth is not a player who is going to up the tempo from the bench!

If England are going to keep with the box kicking strategy, I'd start Wigglesworth vs Scotland.

I am coming round to the same reasoning why Hartley and Brown have to keep starting because whether I like them or not they are bringing structure. They have started the 6 nations solidly.

As I've said before - if a player is performing adequately they shouldn't be dropped.

Care is more effective off the bench than Wigglesworth, same with George and Nowell.

[TightHEAD]

Care never looks comfortable starting for England full stop.

I love him being a finisher to be honest were his burst of speed makes things happen for England.

[No 7&1/2]

Tommy Taylor given a run of games should be right in the mix lost.

[No 7&1/2]

Apparently wales have asked for clarification over the tmo decision. Quite amusing considering the battering englands coaches got for the same thing 6 years ago.

[Scottrf]

Why can't Gatland use Google?

[BlueNote]

That was a fascinating contest, great intensity from both sides. I thought the better side won, although Wales might have nicked it in the end. Well done England, and Wales can take some optimism to Dublin.

My whinge would be that Eddie Jones and Mike Brown are really awful human beings, it's fine being competitive but they go well over the line into unsporting for me.

[Guest]

Out of interest, what did Brown do that you found unsporting? I can remember him laughing at Williams after the Underhill tackle, but it's being conveniently ignored that he didn't laugh until Williams pushed him away when he tried to get the ball for a possible quick lineout (which obviously was never going to happen, but every team in the world fights for the ball, even for a scrum).

[BlueNote]

He makes gestures and comments all the time (and also the slap of the ball out of the scrum-half's hand), consistent with what I've seen from him for Quins and England before. He's not the only one, Moriarty was doing it a bit too, but it's always there and always nasty with Brown.

[doctor_grey]

My whinge would be that Eddie Jones and Mike Brown are really awful human beings, it's fine being competitive but they go well over the line into unsporting for me.

Eddie is a supreme WUM when he wants to be.  If you remember back in 2003 Eddie and Clive kept going back and forth winding the other up and neither giving an inch.  With today's proliferation of social media outlets and more news outlets (with not much to say), I think those two could have broken the internet in the lead up to that final if staged today.

[mikey_dragon]

Apparently wales have asked for clarification over the tmo decision. Quite amusing considering the battering englands coaches got for the same thing 6 years ago.

You’re comparing your own and Lancaster’s lack of understanding with an incorrect TMO decision, they really aren’t the same whatever spin you try and put on it. We can’t undo anything but we can prevent this amateur kiwi from bringing misfortune on someone else in the future!

[Scottrf]

'Awful human beings'. Jesus, the hyperbole.

[No 7&1/2]

Clarification sought both instances. I'm fine with both by the way.

[thomh]

He makes gestures and comments all the time (and also the slap of the ball out of the scrum-half's hand), consistent with what I've seen from him for Quins and England before.  He's not the only one, Moriarty was doing it a bit too, but it's always there and always nasty with Brown.

Is it always nasty? Can't remember when he's ever been yellow-carded at all so I think it's a stretch to say that his natural aggression spills over into actual nastiness.

[Rugby Fan]

The last three games against Wales at Twickenham have been similar.

England look to have the game in hand, only for Wales to exert pressure in the last period which we manage to survive (Six Nations) or not (World Cup).

I heard a claim last week that we might have been undercooked against Italy because Jones had timed our preparation to peak for Wales. It didn't look like that. England weren't out on their feet but we got no finishers impact, perhaps because Underhill & Nowell had to come on earlier than planned.

[lostinwales]

The last three games against Wales at Twickenham have been similar.

England look to have the game in hand, only for Wales to exert pressure in the last period which we manage to survive (Six Nations) or not (World Cup).

I heard a claim last week that we might have been undercooked against Italy because Jones had timed our preparation to peak for Wales. It didn't look like that. England weren't out on their feet but we got no finishers impact, perhaps because Underhill & Nowell had to come on earlier than planned.

Although our starting 15 is pretty close to what would be ideal (barring the sizeable presence of Billy) our 'finishers' selection is not the weapon it has been. No Care to up the tempo. Williams and Te'o are beasts but not enough on their own.

[Scottrf]

Marler and Sinckler potentially back, and Hughes.

So bench for Scotland could be:

Vunipola
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Hughes
Care
Teo
Daly

[SecretFly]

Out of interest, what did Brown do that you found unsporting? I can remember him laughing at Williams after the Underhill tackle, but it's being conveniently ignored that he didn't laugh until Williams pushed him away when he tried to get the ball for a possible quick lineout (which obviously was never going to happen, but every team in the world fights for the ball, even for a scrum).

Quit with the Financial Times clinical stoicism, Fuzzy.  It's the RedTop reactions we want here!

"Basterde Brown Buried Bum deep in Black Art Bollixsin' aBout!"

[LondonTiger]

Wales forwards made 160 tackles and missed just 3. Mighty impressive.

[cascough]

Another point is that Danny Care didn't really look comfortable with the box kicking strategy, he's not that kind of player.

Wigglesworth is not a player who is going to up the tempo from the bench!

If England are going to keep with the box kicking strategy, I'd start Wigglesworth vs Scotland.

I am coming round to the same reasoning why Hartley and Brown have to keep starting because whether I like them or not they are bringing structure. They have started the 6 nations solidly.

As I've said before - if a player is performing adequately they shouldn't be dropped.

Care is more effective off the bench than Wigglesworth, same with George and Nowell.

England were knackered. The absolute last thing we wanted was to up the tempo. Wigglesworth made a positive impact on the game I thought. He was exactly what we needed. Care was floundering.

[munkian]

I think Brown was lucky to stay on the pitch for slapping the ball out of our 9's hand when were pressuring your 22. You'd had a fair few penalties previously and was a completely cynical foul.

[cascough]

I see someone else has conflated "upping the tempo" with being on the bench. When a game is close on the scoreboard like that, the team that's ahead is very unlikely to want it to open up. They'd want to tighten it up, trust their defence and squeeze territory and hopefully penalties. Add to that that England looked very tired and I dread to think what would have happened if the game had got faster.

Being a finisher is about being good, not fast.

Sometimes you want to up the tempo, sometimes you want to up the physicality, sometimes you want to play wider, sometimes you want to play territory. All of those things take different attributes.

[lostinwales]

I see someone else has conflated "upping the tempo" with being on the bench. When a game is close on the scoreboard like that, the team that's ahead is very unlikely to want it to open up. They'd want to tighten it up, trust their defence and squeeze territory and hopefully penalties. Add to that that England looked very tired and I dread to think what would have happened if the game had got faster.

Being a finisher is about being good, not fast.

Sometimes you want to up the tempo, sometimes you want to up the physicality, sometimes you want to play wider, sometimes you want to play territory. All of those things take different attributes.

'finishing' the way we have done it can mean having some nice fresh heavyweight runners to hold on to the ball and to carry on smashing into increasingly tired defenders.

[LondonTiger]

England were knackered. The absolute last thing we wanted was to up the tempo. Wigglesworth made a positive impact on the game I thought. He was exactly what we needed. Care was floundering.

Were they knackered (well any more so than their opponents? I have seen it put forward as fact on here but I have to say I struggle to agree with that. The speed that England's players were getting to their feet after each tackle and regaining their defensive position (26 tackles in last 3 minutes?) was in marked contrast to the Welsh attackers who at times were really labouring. For me both sides were tired, which you would expect, but England's fitness held up just as well as Wales.

[BamBam]

Funny that the thread had to be locked as soon as Gwlad was allowed back, I'm sure that's a complete coincidence ..

I thought both sides played pretty poorly, England made the most of the early opportunities but thereafter struggled to have much of an impact on a good Welsh defence, the stats LT posted showed how strong Wales were defensively.

Wales only really had the TMO denied chance, I never really thought our defence was going to break, every time they built up momentum England would force a knock on/turnover and go back up the field.

Wales look like the 3rd best team in the competition, and I would expect them to finish there barring a surprise (to me at least) against Ireland. I am interested to see how they go on from here, with Gatland's previously favoured backs now available again

England need to pick it up a bit if they want to even think about a Grand Slam, but I think we match up very well against Scotland, and France just aren't very good. As expected, it will all come down to the Ireland game

[Scottrf]

Wales only really had the TMO denied chance, I never really thought our defence was going to break, every time they built up momentum England would force a knock on/turnover and go back up the field.

And the 4 on 1 overlap Williams completely blew.

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