Ulster Rugby 2017-18

by Pot Hale Mon 01 Jan 2018, 6:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Jeez - O’Donoghue eeled his way through that maul and caught Herring.

by **rodders** Tue 13 Feb 2018, 2:28 pm

marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:
Does he have what it takes to be a coach? Maybe Jeremy Davidson would come back, or Jonny Bell.

I think you've missed my point Don, it's not about Stephen Ferris its about the fact that for nearly 20 years no retired player has remained at the club in a coaching capacity post retirement - they've all either got out of there or for whatever reason weren't encouraged or welcome.

Look at many other successful clubs and organisations, some or all of their coaching team involves ex-players.

I'm not talking about guys who played in the 90's here, this is 2018, we are long supposed to be a professional organization instead it is like an amateur club with professional facilities and a load of money to throw around on the odd high profile recruit.

Doak, Clarke and McCall all went into coaching with Ulster after retiring. That's all within the last 20 years

That's my point!

by marty2086 Tue 13 Feb 2018, 2:39 pm

rodders wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:
Does he have what it takes to be a coach? Maybe Jeremy Davidson would come back, or Jonny Bell.

I think you've missed my point Don, it's not about Stephen Ferris its about the fact that for nearly 20 years no retired player has remained at the club in a coaching capacity post retirement - they've all either got out of there or for whatever reason weren't encouraged or welcome.

Look at many other successful clubs and organisations, some or all of their coaching team involves ex-players.

I'm not talking about guys who played in the 90's here, this is 2018, we are long supposed to be a professional organization instead it is like an amateur club with professional facilities and a load of money to throw around on the odd high profile recruit.

Doak, Clarke and McCall all went into coaching with Ulster after retiring. That's all within the last 20 years

That's my point!

Who is there that could have moved into a coaching role in the last two years?

It's not for everyone

by clivemcl Tue 13 Feb 2018, 3:06 pm

Any chance of Muller selling that effin’ farm

by marty2086 Tue 13 Feb 2018, 3:33 pm

I heard he got a good deal on a biomass boiler for his retirement and is making a fortune back home

by geoff999rugby Tue 13 Feb 2018, 3:36 pm

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Gibbes has made it quite clear he has no interest in being a Head Coach.

There are no local coaches anywhere near good enough

So basically he wanted the title but not the responsibility?

Not fair.

He has reluctantly agreed to step into the role between now and the end of year to help us out.
Not his fault Ulster are a mess

by clivemcl Tue 13 Feb 2018, 3:41 pm

If he didn't want it, the only logical reason would be because he knew he had future plans or ambitions elsewhere. Could be no other reason why a guy wouldn't take the promotion. Otherwise it appears like he doubts his own ability. Unless of course his reasons for not wanting it is because he knows he isn't wanting to stick around.

by marty2086 Tue 13 Feb 2018, 3:41 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Gibbes has made it quite clear he has no interest in being a Head Coach.

There are no local coaches anywhere near good enough

So basically he wanted the title but not the responsibility?
Not fair.

He has reluctantly agreed to step into the role between now and the end of year to help us out.
Not his fault Ulster are a mess

Not what I meant Geoff, his release clause at Clermont was for a head coach role, he was brought in as such but he didn't really want to be one just have the title of one

by geoff999rugby Tue 13 Feb 2018, 3:44 pm

McCall left because the CEO at the time (Reid) did not back him when players got out of line.
Notably Neil Best and Roger Wilson.
McCall left because he received absolutely vile threats on social media
We have won nothing since he left - his Championship remains the only time we have won the league

My understanding is Muller is going nowhere whilst he has family responsibilities in South Africa

by geoff999rugby Tue 13 Feb 2018, 3:46 pm

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Gibbes has made it quite clear he has no interest in being a Head Coach.

There are no local coaches anywhere near good enough

So basically he wanted the title but not the responsibility?
Not fair.

He has reluctantly agreed to step into the role between now and the end of year to help us out.
Not his fault Ulster are a mess

Not what I meant Geoff, his release clause at Clermont was for a head coach role, he was brought in as such but he didn't really want to be one just have the title of one

That maybe but he was not the Head Coach here and did not come with the intent of being Head Coach.
Les Kiss was the man in charge - no question
Sounds like a legal slight of hand to get him here - he cant be blamed for that

by **rodders** Tue 13 Feb 2018, 3:49 pm

marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:
Does he have what it takes to be a coach? Maybe Jeremy Davidson would come back, or Jonny Bell.

I think you've missed my point Don, it's not about Stephen Ferris its about the fact that for nearly 20 years no retired player has remained at the club in a coaching capacity post retirement - they've all either got out of there or for whatever reason weren't encouraged or welcome.

Look at many other successful clubs and organisations, some or all of their coaching team involves ex-players.

I'm not talking about guys who played in the 90's here, this is 2018, we are long supposed to be a professional organization instead it is like an amateur club with professional facilities and a load of money to throw around on the odd high profile recruit.

Doak, Clarke and McCall all went into coaching with Ulster after retiring. That's all within the last 20 years

That's my point!

Who is there that could have moved into a coaching role in the last two years?

It's not for everyone

Here hang on how do we go from 20 years to 2. In between we had plenty of players on the books.

Coaching is not for everyone but it can't not be for anyone.

Players are either not getting the support and encouragement they need or Ulster are just the unluckiest organization in the world, that not a single player has any interest in coaching professionally at the club after retirement.

by clivemcl Tue 13 Feb 2018, 3:50 pm

In an Interview a few months back, Muller said he loved the farm and didn’t miss rugby at all. I was hoping he was just helping his old man for a while then would sell it or something. He gave zero hint that he had any coaching ambitions sadly.

by marty2086 Tue 13 Feb 2018, 4:02 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Gibbes has made it quite clear he has no interest in being a Head Coach.

There are no local coaches anywhere near good enough

So basically he wanted the title but not the responsibility?
Not fair.

He has reluctantly agreed to step into the role between now and the end of year to help us out.
Not his fault Ulster are a mess

Not what I meant Geoff, his release clause at Clermont was for a head coach role, he was brought in as such but he didn't really want to be one just have the title of one

That maybe but he was not the Head Coach here and did not come with the intent of being Head Coach.
Les Kiss was the man in charge - no question
Sounds like a legal slight of hand to get him here - he cant be blamed for that

Sorry Geoff but I find it hard to believe that someone who has a clause like that in his contract doesn't actually want to be head coach

by clivemcl Tue 13 Feb 2018, 4:37 pm

***Trial chat deleted as per request from other poster.***

by Kingshu Tue 13 Feb 2018, 4:56 pm

Clive lets just stick to rugby. Start a new tread I can ignore if you want to dicuss the case.

by clivemcl Tue 13 Feb 2018, 6:22 pm

Fair play Kingshu.

by Kingshu Tue 13 Feb 2018, 6:28 pm

Thanks Clive. Lets keep this one rugby related.

by toml Tue 13 Feb 2018, 7:35 pm

Well if Jono is off we will be right in the Poopie!
Ulsters 'world wide' searches have historically been a joke.
Appointing from within has not went well. Appointing from out of the country has not been great.
Maybe we should appoint from within Ireland outwith of Ulster?

by Standulstermen Tue 13 Feb 2018, 7:40 pm

If Gibbes goes then the whole ticket is a write off and we should be looking at NZ again. They are the innovators when it comes to coaching. I dont know if Tony Brown could be tempted or indeed if he is in Japan FT now or what the deal is. Hopefully Gibbes will see Ulster as a challenge and continue on.

by Redman Tue 13 Feb 2018, 8:59 pm

It's possible, but if he's on a 2 year contract then the Aussies will need to buy him out of his contract.

I don't get the sense that they're rolling in money at the moment given they're having to close franchises. Maybe a clause in the contract to say he can leave for international positions?

I don't know, the whole thing just feels unlikely.

by Kingshu Tue 13 Feb 2018, 9:04 pm

I hope Gibbes stays. Head coach role in a Province with a lot of potentional if he gets it right. Would prob put him in the shop window better when an international headcoach role comes up than being forwards coach with Austrailia. If he gets it right he's in with a shout of taking over Ireland and from there NZ.

by marty2086 Tue 13 Feb 2018, 9:16 pm

Redman wrote:It's possible, but if he's on a 2 year contract then the Aussies will need to buy him out of his contract.

I don't get the sense that they're rolling in money at the moment given they're having to close franchises. Maybe a clause in the contract to say he can leave for international positions?

I don't know, the whole thing just feels unlikely.

Except all he needs to do is give the right notice, isn't that what Lam and Erasmus both did

by Standulstermen Tue 13 Feb 2018, 11:02 pm

6 month clause yes but he'd need to have told Cunningham already in which case they'd need to announce it

by clivemcl Tue 13 Feb 2018, 11:17 pm

Would they need to announce it though? Perhaps this is the very reason a Gibbes hasn’t just been announced as stepping into Kiss’ role but rather only caretakering...

by Standulstermen Wed 14 Feb 2018, 12:33 am

if Cunningham doesn't announce that we need a new coach and it comes out he knew for months there will be hell to pay. While there is any uncertainty i wont be renewing my ST.

by clivemcl Wed 14 Feb 2018, 12:39 am

Thing is, you can see the pattern ahead of us, because we've been through it a few times already.
If Gibbes, Peel etc stay and we get a new head coach. After another poor year, the message will be that that it isn't fair, and every head coach should be allowed to build their own team... etc etc... yadda yadda yadda...
I mean, right now Gibbes is Doak yea? I'm just waiting to hear some rumours that He and Peel have been having bust ups on the training field, and that the mood is sour.
Oh and we get Farrell for a few weeks here and there - he will be our amazing head coach, but we have to wait until after the RWC...

by geoff999rugby Wed 14 Feb 2018, 9:33 am

Gibbes has never shown any inclination to be head coach in the past, present or future - the title is meaningless

There are three possible scenarios

- He does the job likes it and becomes the actual Head Coach next year
- He stays as forwards coach and we replace Kiss as actual Head Coach
- He has already indicated he wants to leave but will fill the gap till the end of season.
(It has not been announced because of Kiss going, CCs outstanding, trial - keep it quiet for a month or so)

Of those I reckon the likelihood of each is in reverse order

Good news is this coaching ticket talk to each other and get on

by **rodders** Wed 14 Feb 2018, 9:36 am

clivemcl wrote:Would they need to announce it though? Perhaps this is the very reason a Gibbes hasn’t just been announced as stepping into Kiss’ role but rather only caretakering...

I would bet my house this is the case.

The fact that Farrell is coming in, they are doing another review and that Gibbes was only announced as temporary suggests that he is on his way out.

there were already rumors that he was unhappy from the start, that he was recruited as head coach but effectively operating as a forward coach and wanted out. The fact that the reports linking him to the Australia job just add fuel to the fire.

by geoff999rugby Wed 14 Feb 2018, 9:36 am

toml wrote:Well if Jono is off we will be right in the Poopie!
Ulsters 'world wide' searches have historically been a joke.
Appointing from within has not went well. Appointing from out of the country has not been great.
Maybe we should appoint from within Ireland outwith of Ulster?

World wide searches are something that only happen in Logans deluded mind.
The man is either a liar or an idiot - I have come to the conclusion he is a bit of both

by geoff999rugby Wed 14 Feb 2018, 9:38 am

I should add a caveat that I do think Gibbes thought he would have more say , in forward selection than he actually had.

Make no mistake Kiss has been picking the team

by Redman Wed 14 Feb 2018, 10:37 am

I'm not seeing it to be honest. While he may not be happy with the mess, he's in a good position.

He's not going to get a proper Head Coach role with less pressure than us at the moment. Kiss gone, morale in the toilet .... just means everyone's' expectations are very low. He's had 6 months here to get his feet under the table and can run the team however he likes, Cunningham won't touch team selection, nor will Logan.

The only reason to leave is he honestly doesn't fancy being a Head Coach and just wants to stick to the forwards, which as Marty says seems odd if he had a clause in his contract at Clermont were he could be released if he had an offer of that position.

by **rodders** Wed 14 Feb 2018, 10:44 am

Redman wrote:
He's not going to get a proper Head Coach role with less pressure than us at the moment.

How do you work that out? There is no non-international team in world rugby who sack more coaches than Ulster do.

by marty2086 Wed 14 Feb 2018, 12:06 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:I should add a caveat that I do think Gibbes thought he would have more say , in forward selection than he actually had.

Make no mistake Kiss has been picking the team

Kiss pretty much said that would be the case at the start of the season and rightly so in my opinion as we have seen it was his head on the chopping block

Its strange Gibbes has no ambition to be head coach and came to do the job he was doing at Clermont

by SecretFly Wed 14 Feb 2018, 12:14 pm

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:I should add a caveat that I do think Gibbes thought he would have more say , in forward selection than he actually had.

Make no mistake Kiss has been picking the team

Kiss pretty much said that would be the case at the start of the season and rightly so in my opinion as we have seen it was his head on the chopping block

Its strange Gibbes has no ambition to be head coach and came to do the job he was doing at Clermont

I think it's semantics. Gibbes has no inclination to be the fall guy (now there's a strange man). So I think he must have thought Kiss was DOR (visible leader) and he'd get on with his work without the burden of being seen to be commander in chief. But I think Gibbes must have felt that behind the scenes he's have had much more say on the actual detail on training field and at match day.
Now, with Kiss gone and when he thinks he might be seen as fall guy, he's not too hot on this thing called Head Coach. He's protecting his reputation as much as possible and that's his right. Some coaches are ambitious to lead, some are ambitious to hold onto their reputations as good practical coaches.

by Kingshu Wed 14 Feb 2018, 12:38 pm

Why are Arnold and Farrell both ahead of our centers when they both left as they didnt think they vould break though. Suy the better centers who stayed should be ahead of them

by marty2086 Wed 14 Feb 2018, 2:10 pm

Kingshu wrote:Why are Arnold and Farrell both ahead of our centers when they both left as they didnt think they vould break though. Suy the better centers who stayed should be ahead of them

Joe doesn't like top knots or scrum caps on backs

by The Great Aukster Wed 14 Feb 2018, 2:20 pm

Gibbes isn't coming out of this very well.

It must have been Kiss that recruited JG, so unless Les lied, Gibbes should have known exactly what his role and responsibilities were.
If he wasn't happy under Kiss then with Les gone he should be ecstatic, and finally able to implement his own strategies.
If he was happy under Kiss but needed that mentor overseer then maybe he's not the coach Ulster needed anyway. As part of the good ship Kiss, maybe he should have sunk with Les or perhaps will yet jump ship to join his mate Cheika.

Ulster now are in the perfect Catch 22, they need a strong innovator to annihilate the dinosaurs, but the dinosaurs have to appoint him.

by **rodders** Wed 14 Feb 2018, 2:35 pm

Kingshu wrote:Why are Arnold and Farrell both ahead of our centers when they both left as they didnt think they vould break though. Suy the better centers who stayed should be ahead of them

A better question is why did they improve so much after they left? Better coaching?

Could ask the same about Whitten.

by marty2086 Wed 14 Feb 2018, 2:39 pm

rodders wrote:
Kingshu wrote:Why are Arnold and Farrell both ahead of our centers when they both left as they didnt think they vould break though. Suy the better centers who stayed should be ahead of them

A better question is why did they improve so much after they left? Better coaching?

Could ask the same about Whitten.

Has Farrell improved? He's still very error prone yet it seems to be overlooked while McCloskey has some things to work on?

by marty2086 Wed 14 Feb 2018, 2:57 pm

Irish international winger Craig Gilroy and Abbey Insurance Ulster Academy back row forward Nick Timoney have both put pen to paper on extended deals at Ulster Rugby.

Gilroy has agreed an extension that will keep him at the Province until 2021, while Timoney has been rewarded with a senior contract.

by **rodders** Wed 14 Feb 2018, 3:52 pm

marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Kingshu wrote:Why are Arnold and Farrell both ahead of our centers when they both left as they didnt think they vould break though. Suy the better centers who stayed should be ahead of them

A better question is why did they improve so much after they left? Better coaching?

Could ask the same about Whitten.

Has Farrell improved? He's still very error prone yet it seems to be overlooked while McCloskey has some things to work on?

We'll find out against Wales I suppose, Schmidt seems to rate him. He's a better 13 than Ludik anyway.

by marty2086 Wed 14 Feb 2018, 3:55 pm

rodders wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Kingshu wrote:Why are Arnold and Farrell both ahead of our centers when they both left as they didnt think they vould break though. Suy the better centers who stayed should be ahead of them

A better question is why did they improve so much after they left? Better coaching?

Could ask the same about Whitten.

Has Farrell improved? He's still very error prone yet it seems to be overlooked while McCloskey has some things to work on?

We'll find out against Wales I suppose, Schmidt seems to rate him. He's a better 13 than Ludik anyway.

Is he better than McCloskey or Marshall though? With Marshall he's not had the best luck with injuries so that doesn't help him but McCloskey has seemingly improved the areas he needed to improve while Farrell seems to have a number of the flaws McCloskey had but they aren't a problem

Seems to be a similar problem that Cave had and his face just doesn't fit

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