Political round up.............

by **superflyweight** Tue 21 Nov 2017, 8:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

LionsV2 wrote:
Galted wrote:

As much as I agree with you that much of the reason for the Leave vote was the racism and pig-ignorance of the likes of Lionsv2 and old people, I'm not sure the questions you're asking are particularly relevant. I'd quite like a cut in local crime but couldn't name a single local criminal.

I beg your pardon?

No doubt the mods will do nothing about that.

He said you were “PIG IGNORANT”. I’ve heard of hard of hearing before but not hard of reading.

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 30 Nov 2017, 3:24 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/nov/29/east-coast-rail-franchise-terminated-three-years-early-virgin-trains

Yay, privatisation?

Have to admit, I'm at a bit of a loss here. Overbid and pay too much for an item and the Government says "There, there, we'll bail you out.". I'm pretty sure no-one bails me out if I overpay for an item on eBay etc.

Sod them - they should be left to deal with it or sell it to another private operator, of which there are presumably none dumb enough.

by CaledonianCraig Thu 30 Nov 2017, 4:38 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/nov/29/east-coast-rail-franchise-terminated-three-years-early-virgin-trains

Yay, privatisation?
Have to admit, I'm at a bit of a loss here. Overbid and pay too much for an item and the Government says "There, there, we'll bail you out.". I'm pretty sure no-one bails me out if I overpay for an item on eBay etc.

Sod them - they should be left to deal with it or sell it to another private operator, of which there are presumably none dumb enough.

I think there is a reason for this though. Virgin Trains are a company renowned for its experience running train franchises and I have no doubt the government want to keep them sweet as they may need them to put in bids for future franchises. This is what is totally wrong with privatisation (well one of the things anyway). TOC's can run franchises into the ground and scurry away from their commitments early and not suffer any financial punishments either. Is it any wonder it is the same companies that return time after time to bid for another franchise when it becomes available?

by 3fingers Thu 30 Nov 2017, 8:29 pm

Bring on brrexit - and cheap Chinese toys. Went into ASDA today, and a barbie doll cost £26!

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri 01 Dec 2017, 9:08 am

My inflatable doll cost twice that!

by **superflyweight** Fri 01 Dec 2017, 9:20 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:My inflatable doll cost twice that!

Should have got a cheaper one with a hole in it.

by **Pal Joey** Fri 01 Dec 2017, 11:20 am

superflyweight wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:My inflatable doll cost twice that!

Should have got a cheaper one with a hole in it.

I got a non-EU one with two holes for half price.

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri 01 Dec 2017, 12:08 pm

An entry hole and a Brexit hole.

by **Galted** Fri 01 Dec 2017, 1:20 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:An entry hole and a Brexit hole.

I find that deeply offensive. So deeply offensive, in fact, that I'm going to tell everyone on Twitter so that they can be deeply offended too.

by **Hero** Fri 01 Dec 2017, 1:25 pm

Galted wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:An entry hole and a Brexit hole.

I find that deeply offensive. So deeply offensive, in fact, that I'm going to tell everyone on Twitter so that they can be deeply offended too.

Get Trump to retweet it.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 01 Dec 2017, 1:54 pm

3fingers wrote:Bring on brrexit - and cheap Chinese toys. Went into ASDA today, and a barbie doll cost £26!

Is that a slightly colder way of leaving the EU? Just out of interest, did you look to see where that Barbie was actually made?

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 01 Dec 2017, 1:54 pm

Galted wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:An entry hole and a Brexit hole.

I find that deeply offensive. So deeply offensive, in fact, that I'm going to tell everyone on Twitter so that they can be deeply offended too.

by CaledonianCraig Mon 04 Dec 2017, 7:25 pm

May tying herself in knots over Brexit talks. She seems intent on giving Northern Ireland a special agreement whilst the rest of the UK gets no such treatment. Amazing and just shows the abhorrent flaws in the workings at Westminster.

by **ShahenshahG** Tue 05 Dec 2017, 7:07 am

What's funny is that it looks like the DUP accepted it in private then dissed her in public. I'm betting she probably spent the last few months wishing that she had lost the election.

by **Pr4wn** Tue 05 Dec 2017, 1:47 pm

I don't understand the DUP. It's like they miss the fighting.

by **ShahenshahG** Tue 05 Dec 2017, 1:57 pm

No I think they don't want the only plausible solution without getting another couple of billion

by **rodders** Tue 05 Dec 2017, 4:16 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:What's funny is that it looks like the DUP accepted it in private then dissed her in public. I'm betting she probably spent the last few months wishing that she had lost the election.

Now people are seeing at a national level what politics in NI is like and why it is so hard to get agreements there Smile

.

I personally think that either Arlene agreed to the deal initially but couldn't sell it to her party or Theresa panicked when she saw London, Wales and Scotland wanting a similar arrangement and they concocted this story that the DUP blocked it to buy more time.

Either way it is comical to watch it play out.

by **rodders** Tue 05 Dec 2017, 4:29 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:No I think they don't want the only plausible solution without getting another couple of billion

100 billion wouldn't make a difference the harder line unionists would starve before allow a deal which aligns them closer to Ireland and away from GB, so if they perceive that this arrangement will do that they will never agree.

Theresa is snookered. The 3 options facing her are:-

a) She ignores the DUP threat and goes with the deal and risks an election if the DUP MPs pull their support for the tories.

b) She placates the DUP's main concern of customs checks between NI and GB by extending the regulatory alignment promise for the whole UK and likely loses support from the brexiteers in her party, forcing an election.

c) She backs out of the deal and risks the Irish government blocking the progress to the trade talks with the EU.

by Dave. Tue 05 Dec 2017, 5:14 pm

Rodders - broadly agree with you here.

On a) - think that won't happen. Soubryites and Brexiteers are saying it should be for the whole UK. So its b) or c). Theresa's Choice. My view is she went behind DUP back to get a deal or EU and Varadkar were bouncing her into one.

by Ent Tue 05 Dec 2017, 5:25 pm

The problem with may is she is stuck in the middle, varadakar and the republic have a veto on the furthering negotiations and any deal and the dup who will not accept any of the workable solutions to the Irish border problem.

There will be a general election and Corbin will get on, he will be much more sympathetic to nationalists in ni - that is how stupid the dup are.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 05 Dec 2017, 5:50 pm

The deal to remain in the single market should never have been made anyway. When the Scottish governmentcrequested this a few months ago they were categorically told that was not possible and not going to happen. Amazingvwhat propping up a failing government will get you eh DUP?

by GSC Tue 05 Dec 2017, 5:57 pm

A party the Tories have bribed have provided more resistance than the opposition have to Brexit so far.

That sums up this whole mess.

by Ent Tue 05 Dec 2017, 8:03 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:The deal to remain in the single market should never have been made anyway. When the Scottish governmentcrequested this a few months ago they were categorically told that was not possible and not going to happen. Amazingvwhat propping up a failing government will get you eh DUP?

Incorrect, the dup do not want to retain single market membership. What Scotland wants and asks for is irrelevant- NI already had special status due to the good Friday agreement and has the small matter of a land border (with over 100 crossing points) with an eu nation.

May needs to grow a pair and call the dups bluff, they won't risk a GE and ending up with a more nationalist friendly Corbyn gov. They've been using the confidence and supply agreement to avoid restarting the assembly in NI and actually doing what they agreed to do in 2007 in the St. Andrews agreement.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 05 Dec 2017, 8:17 pm

The point is they were offered it. That option was an impossibility according to the government. Voices in England, Wales and Scotland all say the same. It should not be one rule for one and one rule for another.

by catchweight Tue 05 Dec 2017, 9:58 pm

Saying it cannot be one rule for one and not for another is the exact same stance the dup is taking.

Clearly the situation calls for more lateral thinking.

The government has already pretty much conceded to the eu on all its demands anyway and the only thing preventing the latest concession is the potential collapse of the govt. Im not sure its wise to call the dups bluff. These are people who will happily cut off their nose to spite their face and i dont think even a corbyn govt would be enough to motivate them into agreeing to keeping the current arrangement in place. I think privately they would actually welcome a hard border between north and the republic. They operste in fear of a united ireland and want to keep the separation as distinct and obvious as possible.

by Sin é Tue 05 Dec 2017, 10:06 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:The deal to remain in the single market should never have been made anyway. When the Scottish governmentcrequested this a few months ago they were categorically told that was not possible and not going to happen. Amazingvwhat propping up a failing government will get you eh DUP?

I think treating NI as a Special Area is down to the ROI requesting it. Don't think the DUP are too happy about that. Rodders has probably told you already, apart from the various social and political reasons/Good Friday Agreement, that border would be unpoliciable.

edit: another concession as well that Ireland agreed right in the beginning if (under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement), the island is to reunite, NI would be accepted immediately into the EU.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 06 Dec 2017, 5:30 am

Frankly, the Good Friday agreement does not come into it - or at least shouldn't. The discussions are on Brexit. The British government made it crystal clear that a single market was out of the question to Scotland . They made that decision so that,has to be stuck to for all countries in the UK. It seems clear that the desperate Tory government signed a deal with the DUP in a bid to hold onto power and now Brexit talks are getting complicated have tied themselves in knots and began offering single market to appease Ireland without even consulting with those that are proppingbup the Tory government. Daft, desperate and under-handed.

by catchweight Wed 06 Dec 2017, 7:43 am

You cant really escape the good friday agreement on the border issue. Even if britain wanted to ignore it, the eu will not.

We are finding out the hard way that really we dont hold the cards in these negotiations.

Really what the brexit vote should have meant is tgat if we vote out then we go quickly. Hard brexit. Hard borders. Wto rules. Thats all thats feasible in a two year timeframe.

by **rodders** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 11:27 am

Ent wrote:
May needs to grow a pair and call the dups bluff, they won't risk a GE and ending up with a more nationalist friendly Corbyn gov. They've been using the confidence and supply agreement to avoid restarting the assembly in NI and actually doing what they agreed to do in 2007 in the St. Andrews agreement.

That's exactly what needs to happen. The DUP have no authority here other than having 10 MPs propping up the minority government. They aren't the elected government of NI so have no right to be behaving as the sole negotiator and having the final say on the border.

As Varadakar has said this is between Dublin and London, if May is consulting local politicians on the issue they should be speaking to all elected parties and not just the DUP, who actually only represent a minority of NI as the only party who backed leave.

If the DUP are allowed to dictate the brexit terms for NI then that is a massive threat to the peace process, and ironically the Union.

The fact is without the the UK remaining in the customs union, or at least an agreed regulatory alignment then the issue is not whether there will be a hard or soft border in NI, the question is where the hard border is going to be.

Despite the DUP position on this the lesser threat to the union is if it is a sea border. They are total idiots.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:02 pm

catchweight wrote:

We are finding out the hard way that really we dont hold the cards in these negotiations.

Really what the brexit vote should have meant is tgat if we vote out then we go quickly. Hard brexit. Hard borders. Wto rules. Thats all thats feasible in a two year timeframe.

I was not too fussed how Brexit vote went but the whole vote was a flawed system. It was just a straight yes or no option. However, ifvit is to be a hard brexit there are a good number of yes voters originally who would not have voted yes so you have a skewed result.

by Ent Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:07 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Frankly, the Good Friday agreement does not come into it - or at least shouldn't. The discussions are on Brexit. The British government made it crystal clear that a single market was out of the question to Scotland . They made that decision so that,has to be stuck to for all countries in the UK. It seems clear that the desperate Tory government signed a deal with the DUP in a bid to hold onto power and now Brexit talks are getting complicated have tied themselves in knots and began offering single market to appease Ireland without even consulting with those that are proppingbup the Tory government. Daft, desperate and under-handed.

The good Friday agreement doesn't come into if if it doesn't support your position, if you have a brain it does. There are over 120 areas of cross border co operation in strand 2 of the gfa ranging from infrastructure to health care that any sort of hard border or regulatory difference would endanger. For example a person from Donegal would need to go through a border check or have some sort of visa to attend their local chemotherapy unit.

Scotland can't stay in the single market if England doesn't as you can't have a land border between regions within the eu/ eu regulatory body and those that are not. It was never an option for Scotland or Wales.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:22 pm

All four countries in UK have had voices pipe up and say there can be no special conditions for Northern Ireland with regards single market but the Tory government don't get that. They are so wrong on this it is untrue.

The DUP are equally as wrong as well. They are a minority party in NI and have a stance on Brexit that does mirror what NI people want.

Two incompetent parties have created this stupid embarassing situation.

by GSC Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:33 pm

The Tory government are the ones actually having to negotiate this though. Not saying they're doing a good job but it's easier to sit back and pick holes than actually doing it.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:41 pm

GSC wrote:The Tory government are the ones actually having to negotiate this though. Not saying they're doing a good job but it's easier to sit back and pick holes than actually doing it.

They actively supported Brexit and have known for ling enough now ofcthecresult but it seems appatent little or no thought was putvinto the planning and how they'd approach it. Yes it is a difgicult process - no doubt. However, we have seen Tory incompetence outwith Brexit negotiations to know that it is not the toughness of the task that is the problem.here.

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:43 pm

Yeah but they've created the problem by declaring the intention to leave the internal market. Hard to be sympathetic towards government incompetence when it's created the problem it's failing to solve in the first place. This wasn't a decision made by governments years in the past, Lancaster house speech created this problem so boo f*cking hoo.

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:51 pm

Look if they get a Norway style deal for the interim we can leave the European union and the single market in stages and actually leave. If they do it this disastrous way we'll end up either joining again or face utter ruin. This will also largely mitigate the border issue and we can keep access to the current trade deals we have now and negotiate new ones albeit we won't be able to sell market access like we used to. Then once those treaties are signed we can leave properly and go our merry way taking a smaller and more manageable hit than otherwise.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:52 pm

And lets remember they are the ones who jumped into bed with the DUP a few months ago when Brexit discussions were well underway. They must have known the DUP's agenda on the matter yet still went into this agreement with them. More Tory incompetence.

by **rodders** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:59 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:Yeah but they've created the problem by declaring the intention to leave the internal market.

And the reason they did that was to remove themselves from any jurisdiction of the EU and control their borders.

Then they simultaneously say they don't want a hard border in Ireland and the EU are imposing it.

So to avoid a hard border they need regulatory alignment with EU standards, for free movement of goods, so effectively they are suggesting leaving the single market but then agreeing to adhere to all its rules to secure a trade deal and soft brexit.

It is so ridiculous it is simply beyond belief.

And how David Davis is in his post is amazing, he's actually made himself look stupider than May this week in his admission that they have done no analysis on the impact of brexit after saying previously they had done 50 or 60 studies.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 4:04 pm

Re...Brexit impact analysis..

Scandalous if true..Corbyn is useless but Govts lose Elections..Oppositions don't win them..

The ineptitude of this Govt is unworldly..

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 06 Dec 2017, 4:12 pm

rodders wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Yeah but they've created the problem by declaring the intention to leave the internal market.

And the reason they did that was to remove themselves from any jurisdiction of the EU and control their borders.

Then they simultaneously say they don't want a hard border in Ireland and the EU are imposing it.

So to avoid a hard border they need regulatory alignment with EU standards, for free movement of goods, so effectively they are suggesting leaving the single market but then agreeing to adhere to all its rules to secure a trade deal and soft brexit.

It is so ridiculous it is simply beyond belief.

And how David Davis is in his post is amazing, he's actually made himself look stupider than May this week in his admission that they have done no analysis on the impact of brexit after saying previously they had done 50 or 60 studies.

How dare you? Are you ignorant of the power of positive thinking and it's ability to get us great trade deals for free?

by catchweight Wed 06 Dec 2017, 5:10 pm

Most of the Tory Brexiteers weren’t really voting to leave the E.U. It was closer to renegotiating our position with the EU that they wanted. They felt unable to do it within the EU so thought if we vote out then we simple renegotiate the bits we want to keep. As Boris Johnson said – we can have our cake and eat it.

A ridiculously naïve mindset carried out in a most reckless fashion. By all mean make the argument to leave but at least have a plan on how to do it and what it entails.

We are now just paying 50 Billion to leave so we can re-negotiate less favourable terms and spend unlimited time and effort trying to extract ourselves.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 06 Dec 2017, 8:35 pm

I have no idea what Tory Brexiteers are thinking but I know that May is surviving because..

1. The Tories know they will lose a GE..
2. Changing leader would probably lead to a GE and Corbyn has a firewall of 40 percent..
3. Corbyn would rather be on his allotment than in Downig street.
4. The left wingers that are using Corbyn haven't achieved their main ambition which is to own Labour...

Strange times we live in...Enjoy them....

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 07 Dec 2017, 12:39 pm

Hospitals beds are currently being used at 98 percent of capacity...Winter hasn't even kicked in yet...Disturbing.

(Survation.....)

Men...Con 42...Lab 41..

Women.. Con 33..Lab 48..

Next GE could be a battle of the sexes...

by Samo Thu 07 Dec 2017, 3:30 pm

Amazed when I woke up that David Davis still has a job. Is May actually running the show or is she just the face of it?

by **Pr4wn** Thu 07 Dec 2017, 3:47 pm

He demonstrably lied and clearly has absolutely no idea of what he's doing.

by Samo Thu 07 Dec 2017, 3:55 pm

Pr4wn wrote:He demonstrably lied and clearly has absolutely no idea of what he's doing.

Can you imagine if it was Diane Abbott?

by **Pr4wn** Thu 07 Dec 2017, 4:02 pm

Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:He demonstrably lied and clearly has absolutely no idea of what he's doing.

Can you imagine if it was Diane Abbott?

It would be Keir Starmer. I know who I'd trust.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 07 Dec 2017, 5:50 pm

The Tories own Brexit.....Last thing Labour want is to be in Government right now...Especially with their spending plans...

As for David Davis I'm glad he is still in the job and likewise May....The longer they stay the crapper the Tories look.

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 07 Dec 2017, 10:20 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The Tories own Brexit.....Last thing Labour want is to be in Government right now...Especially with their spending plans...

As for David Davis I'm glad he is still in the job and likewise May....The longer they stay the crapper the Tories look.

I'll drink to that.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sat 16 Dec 2017, 2:02 pm

Final polling of the year....Probably sums the year up..

Yougov (Jan 2017)

18-24yrs......Con 31...Labour 35
60+yrs.........Con 45...Labour 24

Yougov (Dec 2017)

18-24yrs......Con 20...Labour 66
60+yrs.........Con 65...Labour 19

Take care..

by Samo Thu 21 Dec 2017, 7:06 am

Damien Green forced to resign.

Remember when Omnishambles was an insult and not just another day at the office?

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