Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

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SCOTLAND


VS

NEW ZEALAND


Round 31

Brief History

Scotland 0 wins 2 Draws
New Zealand 28 wins 2 draws

Last time Scotland played NZ in Scotland was the 15th of November 2014 (Score: 16 - 24 to NZ)

Last time Scotland played NZ in NZ was the 1st of July 2000 (Score: 48 - 14 to NZ)

On the 18th of January 1964, Scotland played NZ at Murrayfield resulting in an unusual scoreline of 0 - 0

Teams

Scotland


All Kittens

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/98933295/all-blacks-delay-team-naming-pondering-final-selections-for-scotland-test

How this week affects the long term will be, in my book, nearly solely determined by next week. If we win then, this looks convincing. A defeat and it'll be another in a long list of almosts and nearlys.
A win next week sets us up nicely for the rest of the season. Opening the six nations with against Gatland with a team full of boys with a point to prove off the back of a strong Autumn will be a good oppurtunity. Anyone with an idea how the likes of Dickinson, Ford, Brown, Nel, Richie Gray, Wilson, Laidlaw (I think he's behind Price now) Taylor, Maitland and Visser are looking for the six nations?

Great effort by Scotland. They seem more comfortable with the ball in hand than I’ve ever seen from them and they backed it up with ferocious defence. Well done. Definitely the most entertaining team of the Home Nations.

ebop wrote:Great effort by Scotland. They seem more comfortable with the ball in hand than I’ve ever seen from them and they backed it up with ferocious defence. Well done. Definitely the most entertaining team of the Home Nations.

Yes they seem to have a bit more backbone to go with that flair you're going to get from guys like Russell and Hogg. Interesting times ahead for Scottish supporters. Great match that was.

Yeah, Scotland have a very slick passing game. They spin the ball and move it through the hands very quickly. Great skills. Wish Wales could get some passing like that. 

Unlucky today. Very good game. Great for the neutral. 

Hazel the hog hit in the air was never red he landed on his back not his head. However many refs would have given yellow

TJ wrote:Hazel  the hog hit in the air was never red he landed on his back not his head.  However many refs would have given yellow

It is a shoulder with no attempt to wrap in a dangerous position at pace. It was a yellow everyday of the week in both hemispheres. As there are refs who would give just a penalty (today), I would assume there are refs that look at that and go red.

Fair enough.

Just shows how far we have come to push NZ close, to attack them all game to be within a pass of a win and tobe sodissapointed to lose.

We need fear no one and our backs are the best in the NH

NZ won by cheating. 2 yellows arguably 3 and the whiner Shag moaning about consistency, NZ would be the first to throw their toys if they'd been subjected to such a terrible display of cheating however they can't even win gracefully.

Well done Scotland, the better side on the day doesnt always win when faced with a team that prefers to cheat.

And Hogg a deserved MOM.

Bar england yes tj.

Gwlad wrote:NZ won by cheating. 2 yellows arguably 3 and the whiner Shag moaning about consistency, NZ would be the first to throw their toys if they'd been subjected to such a terrible display of cheating however they can't even win gracefully.

Well done Scotland, the better side on the day doesnt always win when faced with a team that prefers to cheat.

And Hogg a deserved MOM.

I don't want to get bogged down in ref criticism, because that isn't going to help us win the next time we play NZ. I can count 2 to 3 times where lack of accuracy killed us. The fact our pack was quite makeshift by the end of the match and we were still bloody in it, was a watershed moment for us.

Onto hogg, any other 10, and Hogg would have scored that try at the end, Barret's pace is unbelievable.

I've never been prouder of my rugby team. We were really good tonight.

What an amazing game, we probably should have won it with some more composure in the first half when we were on the AB's line more than once and failed to score and we basically gifted them two tries with poor defensive organisation for Barrett's try and Seymour's error with letting the ball hit his leg when trying for the 22 drop out.
I was struck by how good the ball handling was across the entire team, even the replacement props were passing on the ball quickly before taking contact, really impressive.
I think we should probably stop referring to Darryl Marfo as the fourth choice loosehead now, he was immense. His propping was good but his loose play and tackling was fantastic, even when he was clearly knackered/injured he kept on going. Plenty more caps for last year's London Welsh bench warmer I'm sure.

How did Hamilton do? (Bar getting crocked thanks for that)

Welly wrote: How did Hamilton do? (Bar getting crocked thanks for that)

He was excellent. Hamish Watson is a pair of big boots to fill, and he did it admirably until picking up a nasty injury...

MacKnocked-on wrote:What an amazing game, we probably should have won it with some more composure in the first half when we were on the AB's line more than once and failed to score and we basically gifted them two tries with poor defensive organisation for Barrett's try and Seymour's error with letting the ball hit his leg when trying for the 22 drop out.
I was struck by how good the ball handling was across the entire team, even the replacement props were passing on the ball quickly before taking contact, really impressive.  
I think we should probably stop referring to Darryl Marfo as the fourth choice loosehead now, he was immense. His propping was good but his loose play and tackling was fantastic, even when he was clearly knackered/injured he kept on going. Plenty more caps for last year's London Welsh bench warmer I'm sure.  

Marfo has been a revelation. Our form choise at loose head right now

sensisball wrote:If Fagerson cant play next week do we start the penalty machine Simon Berghan, at 3, against a strong Aussie scrum? I know Toonie wants to, but should he?

I think his stats were that he conceded 3 penalties in 6 scrums, including the one of the Ab's five metre line against a 7 man scrum with Reid playing in the row behind their loose head.

Think it's harsh to blame Berghan solely for that considering Turner came on at almost the same time and we had to move McInally into the back row

That was Scotland's version of Ireland's Nov 2013 loss - so close. Tough luck - good game to watch for the neutrals.

Next time????

Great effort Scotland

EWT Spoons wrote:

sensisball wrote:If Fagerson cant play next week do we start the penalty machine Simon Berghan, at 3, against a strong Aussie scrum? I know Toonie wants to, but should he?

I think his stats were that he conceded 3 penalties in 6 scrums, including the one of the Ab's five metre line against a 7 man scrum with Reid playing in the row behind their loose head.

Think it's harsh to blame Berghan solely for that considering Turner came on at almost the same time and we had to move McInally into the back row

I think it was a mistake putting Turner in the front row and McInally in the back row - our scrum was much worse because of it. McInally should have stayed hooker!

Given the number of players we had out, that was very encouraging indeed and the nucleus of a very good side is being forged here. 

Marfo has taken his chance, which is all that we could have asked from him. Well done to him - he has been low key but very efficient indeed.

These injuries are very annoying, however. Wonder what sort of team we are going to be able to put out next week? 

Maitland and Welsh both came through their games unscathed (although their teams lost) at the weekend.

No sign of Duncan Taylor which is a shame because the most vulnerable backline member facing competition for his place (apart from Lee Jones who did well but needs to give the shirt up to someone a bit more special now) is possible Alex Dunbar. Taylor and Jones in the centre could be epic.

We absolutely have to put the Aussies away now for this series to be considered a success.

Well after a stress dream last night, why oh why did we take a scrum instead of a tap and go penalty last night

Great performance from Scotland, you can really be proud after that showing. Got a bit of a schooling from an ever improving NZ scrum but past that you were really in it.

NZ so cynical though, a few moments of magic from SBW and you're 10 behind.

Really enjoyed the game though, Hogg is sublime.

Assume you mean clinical Sarge?

Haha....same same Hazel.

The morning after the night before.

An almost unbelievable game that if we are honest with ourselves, we let slip from our grasp by our inability to get points from our pressure. It is the All Blacks at the end of the day and they just don't believe they are going to lose, even when they are not the better team.

Some thoughts from the game:

Daryl Marfo had another really good game, when you consider it was his 2nd cap and against who he was playing. He put in a great shift and did not look out of place. What a story his is and should encourage all journeymen rugby players to keep the faith. He is definitely in our LH mix from now on, even when the others get fit.

We struggled at TH once Zander went off. We are still a little bit light in this area and Berghan may not be the answer. Assuming ZF is not fit for next weekend, there is a very good case for Jon Welsh to start. We need to get him back into the mix to maintain our depth.

Injuries killed us. Apart from ZF, both Watson and Hamilton were playing well before they had to go off. You have really got to feel for Luke Hamilton who looked like he took a nasty one and may be out for a while on his chance to make an impression. He may not get another. You would feel that JB will play OS next weekend and Ryan Wilson will come back in at BS. Could be either Bradbury or Richie on the bench.

Despite his involvement in the try, Tommy Seymour had an uncharacteristically poor game, making several mistakes, some of which were quite costly. Just one of those things I guess, he has a lot of credit in the bank and looking at him in the end, it did not seem down to fitness.

Hoggy was sublime, not much else to say.

Finn Russell put in a really mature performance at FH and showed what a good all round player he can be. Some of his best plays were in defence as well as in attack. He was well aided and abetted by Ali Price. That has to be our half back combo going forward, even when GL is fit again.

I worry a little bit about next weekend. How do we pick ourselves up after a game like that and who is going to be fit?

Excellent summary Gee. I think it says a lot about the belief that the squad has now that guys like Marfo and Hamilton can get dropped straight into a game like this and play with the lack of fear that they did. Go back a few years and all of the senior members of the squad would've had such a hoodoo about facing the all blacks that it would've been a nightmare for a youngster to come into camp and face the prospect of a first or second international start against them. Yesterday you could see right from kickoff that we believed if we took our game to them we could beat them, and it was just the best thing you could ask for as a long suffering Scotland fan!

I think as fans we'll be rueing the decision to go for the scrum on their 5m line for a while, but I've got confidence that this group will learn from that pretty quickly. Again, not something I've always had in the past where making bad decisions under pressure seemed to be a habit we really struggled to break.

There have been so many supportive messages from neutral fans since the game yesterday, and how nice is it that these aren't the 'bad luck guys you fought bravely' ones that we've seen all too often in recent years. Instead, people are genuinely talking about how we went toe to toe with the best in the world, played really exciting rugby and how they're starting to worry about facing us as opposition. This team is properly starting to win the rugby worlds respect and they truly deserve it.

Really gutted for Scotland - I was shouting at the telly when they decided to go for that scrum. I think if they'd tapped instead they may well have scored then, leaving them more time to score again ...

So are we entering a brave new world of competency? Or what? 

Please can someone confirm so that I know how excited I am allowed to get?

Did someone say dark horses lol

https://www.606v2.com/t66798-scotland-v-australia-25th-november

the next instalment!

Afternoon chaps.

I have waited until I re-watched the game before joining in.
First things first: we were better than them in so, so many areas. We really should have won that match.  

However, we cannot claim the "moral victory". Toonie's teams live and die by their belief in, "however many tries you score, we'll score one more". The AB's scored one more than us, so they deserve the plaudits.
Secondly, for how long have the AB's been stepping up the intensity in the ten minutes after half-time, scoring a couple of tries and taking what seemed a close game away from the opposition? At half-time I told young Pipetto that I feared that would happen and Lo, they scored two tries. Amazingly, Scotland did not fold and instead re-doubled their efforts and almost won the game.
Thirdly; those two tries. Some posters here have blamed Hornee Furra for one, or both. If you look at them the key element is McKenzie running a scything arc from Scotland's left wing between the centres and not being picked up. I don't think that is one player's fault so much as a systemic failure. Certainly for the third try Russell has tackled SBW, Horne is up on the 13 stopping him from being there for the off load. This leaves Jones, Jones & Hogg to watch the winger and full back. The TV angle from behind the try line shows Lee Jones tracking McKenzie (too late, sadly) and Huw Jones standing on his heels looking all around him like FES on  a Saturday night wondering just when his date will arrive. For the second try Horne tackles SBW too late to stop the grubber and H Jones is pushing up on the 13 as McKenzie arcs in from the wing and is past him before HJ realises he's there.
What concerns me most about these defensive lapses is that England destroyed us with pre-planned moves attacking the same channels at Twickers and H Jones and Hogg are the only common denominators. You could argue that Seymour as blind side wing should have been sweeping across to pick up the full back I think it's either Huw Jones has a defensive frailty that we have not suspected OR he has not played enough with the Glasgow backs to fit into the systems yet. If it's the latter then he should be fine by the 6N's.
Finally, just a ramble on the fragments that are ricocheting round my head.
Jonny Gray's try; the ref was signalling a penalty advantage to us. If we had not scored then...another yellow surely. Maybe even a red for persistent infringing in the Red Zone.As it was, we scored so no action was taken.
Berghan was ploughing through for a try when the ref blew up for a penalty to us. If he had given us just two seconds more it would have been seven points.
Darryl Marfo is on the way to cult status.
Luke Hamilton was looking good.
Barcs was magnificent.
Doddie Weir; courage and humility personified.
Can't wait for Saturday.

Arrrghhhh



https://www.facebook.com/toprugbyfanpage/videos/1577862212279354/?hc_ref=ARQ4HkCDKTZl1IGSi6YbqP4BtcVdnQ_txo5UHD-QdBKqXnhS3QnIPbxoK5xrcyLejHE&fref=nf

At the time I wondered why the ref stopped play anyway as the ball went backwards and Scotland picked up to go over the line - this just makes it even worse.

4 yellows deserved, but they still get away with it

So frustrating

Its SNAFU with NZ. They cheat, always have, maybe thats why they're the best in the world. They have no concept of sportsmanship - look at Fat Shags comments post game - arrogance personified. Its about time they were taken down by having to follow the rules like the rest if us

Heaf wrote:At the time I wondered why the ref stopped play anyway as the ball went backwards and Scotland picked up to go over the line - this just makes it even worse.

I was screaming at the tele when this happened. I never saw Reid in the act of cheating (that's how good at it he was) but I couldn't for the life me see why the ref blew up as Marfo was in for the try.

Not seeing Reid is one thing, but seeing a knock on that never happened is another entirely. Refs should be cited these days.

Bet Reid doesn't get cited for his foul play either

Indeed - I can't work out how the ref thought there was a knock on when the ball came backwards at a rate of knots - should have let it run and then checked afterwards if he thought he'd seen something - may also have spotted Reid too and sent another cheating AB to the bin.

Posted this in the Glasgow thread. It has been confirmed Russell is leaving at the end of the season

Read slapping the ball out of Gray's hand doesn't really upset me. It just goes to show how desperate they were in defence at that moment to risk being yellow carded to save conceding a seemingly inevitable try. Going forwards it's clear Townsend is doing something special with this group of players and they'll be winning again sooner rather than later.

Gwlad wrote:Its SNAFU with NZ. They cheat, always have, maybe thats why they're the best in the world. They have no concept of sportsmanship - look at Fat Shags comments post game - arrogance personified. Its about time they were taken down by having to follow the rules like the rest if us

Geez, do you ever even hit the dartboard?

What a game that was. If we could hold onto the ball better at times that game could have been our first ever win against NZ.

I know this isn’t going to come as a shock to anyone, but Barrett and SBW are some players, the pace of Barrett when he gets going is mental.

It was nice seeing both teams playing at pace keeping the ball moving, made for an exciting game, it was considerably better than the Scotland Samoa game from the week before.

With regards to the Reid thing, I’ve no issue with him doing that, yes it’s cheating but lets be honest if a Scottish player did that and got away with it, we’d be over the moon. Just a shame it happened to us and prevented a clear try. Fair play to him for stopping the try, but a shame the ref & officials missed it.

Barrett and SBW were part of the reason we lost on Saturday.

Barrett's turn of pace to put in the cover tackle on Hogg at the end was utterly astonishing. I really thought Hogg was going to be in the clear.

Then there was Sonny-Bill - That grubber for one try was out of the top drawer and totally unexpected from a player who rarely puts boot to ball. Then his offload for the Mackenzie try was downright sublime.

Aside from the ref missing Mr Reid's naughtiness and also then believing a Scottish Knock on had occurred, the other main factor for our loss was our inability to scrummage. At no point did out scrum look stable. Fagerson struggled, Berghan struggled. I'll never get my head arounf why we opted for the scrum when we got a penalty. NZ just demolished the scrum again and it was bye bye chance of a try.

We need more leadership and streetwise play.

if your scrum is being demolished with ease, don;t opt for scrums. Tap and go or even the lineout option would have been far better.

Also, if the ref is missing high tackle after high tackle by the blackness, put a few in yourself. The opposition won't look to offload quite as much if they are worried about getting an arm to the head now and then!

tigertattie wrote:

Bet Reid doesn't get cited for his foul play either

Why would he get cited for it?

Was at the game on Saturday and the atmosphere inside was pretty special, especially when Doddie and his 3 lads came out to deliver the ball. There were certainly a few people in the crowd near me with tears in their eyes.

For the game itself I have to say I am pretty frustrated, certainly one that will be looked back on that Scotland should have won. Not sure of the territory and possession stats but felt like it was with Scotland most of the game.

The main failing for me for Scotland was a lack of composure, if they had just taken the tackle a few times and worked the phases instead of throwing speculative passes we potentially would have scored. Hoggs run at the end has been called heroic but for me it was pretty poor play. One of the first things we were coached was if you are getting close to the touchline always cut back in to make sure you don't run out of space. Hogg should have done that and taken the tackle and set the ball up. New Zealand were on the back foot and scrambling in defence, quick ball from there and we would have probably scored a try as a lot of the NZ players hadn't tracked back quickly.

Thought McInally was outstanding again on Saturday, has really found a rich vain of form and upped his game. Toolis was impressive again as well and Jonny Gray stepped it up. Tighthead is a big worry, Fagerson can't be trusted to anchor the scrum yet and isn't strong enough. He still needs a year or two to develop physically. Thought he was poor in loose play as well dropping a few passes when near the New Zealand line. Berghan didnt do much better, I'd go Jon Welsh to start, one of the form tightheads in the Aviva premiership and has been dominating a lot of scrums. If the reason Townsend doesn't pick Welsh is a personal one then it doesn't put Townsend in a good light.

The way we defended was excellent with the constant in your face pressure we put on them. The fitness work that has been done was clearly evident as not many teams can manage to put in a full 80 at that intensity.

exactly - it doesn't fit citing criteria I don't think

TJ wrote:exactly - it doesn't fit citing criteria I don't think

Citings are red card offences only. That clearly wasn't a red card, as horribly cynical as it was.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

TJ wrote:exactly - it doesn't fit citing criteria I don't think

Citings are red card offences only. That clearly wasn't a red card, as horribly cynical as it was.

A yellow and a penalty try for my money.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

TJ wrote:exactly - it doesn't fit citing criteria I don't think

Citings are red card offences only. That clearly wasn't a red card, as horribly cynical as it was.

A yellow and a penalty try for my money.

I'm afraid you can't give a penalty try for that, there's no evidence that a try would probably have been scored if you take Read out of the play. NZ have plenty of defenders left. Definite YC though, cynical infringement in the red zone.

Shame the ref missed it, but it can happen. I felt overall he had a good game actually, was pretty consistent throughout, most annoying was him allowing the TMO to talk him out of the YC for the tackle on Hogg in the air.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

TJ wrote:exactly - it doesn't fit citing criteria I don't think

Citings are red card offences only. That clearly wasn't a red card, as horribly cynical as it was.

A yellow and a penalty try for my money.

I'm afraid you can't give a penalty try for that, there's no evidence that a try would probably have been scored if you take Read out of the play. NZ have plenty of defenders left. Definite YC though, cynical infringement in the red zone.

Shame the ref missed it, but it can happen. I felt overall he had a good game actually, was pretty consistent throughout, most annoying was him allowing the TMO to talk him out of the YC for the tackle on Hogg in the air.

A try was scored 2 seconds after that knock on when people thought the game was still live.

Off the knock on from read. If you give the pen you then have to take read out of the equation. You can see the.nz player ready for the tackle in the above clip.