Jamie George vs Dylan Hartley - Round 12

First topic message reminder :

If not beaten to the punch I shall be posting a match thread for the first of England's AIs shortly. To avoid that descending into a complete off topic farce (and prompted by an article I read today) how about we discuss this now perennial subject in a single thread rather than ruin any others.

Facts

1) Hartley has started every test under Eddie Jones with England winning all but one of them
2) When available George has been on the bench.
3) Jamie George started all 3 tests in the summer for the Lions, his only international starts



Opinions

1) Jamie George is the best hooker in the Aviva Premiership
2) Depending on your point of view, George was either outstanding in NZ or was lucky to start all 3 tests (opinions on Lions threads did differ that widely)
3) With injuries to Taylor and LCD, the options behind George and Hartley do not inspire confidence.
4) Eddie Jones has placed skipper Hartley on a pedestal and deems him undroppable.


For what it is worth: 1 & 3 I agree with, 4 I deem to be utter lovesacks and 2 I am in the middle (such that I feel George never really showed his premiership form and at times was rather meh - yet was still better than the other two options)


Discussion Points

1) Is George a better hooker than Hartley?
2) Should Hartley be in the match day squad (ie ahead of Dunn who is a real novice)
3) Does George's dynamism make him better suited (than Hartley) to the role of a finisher?
4) Are England best served over a full 80 minutes by starting George and bringing on Hartley or vice versa (noting that last season George typically played only 10 minutes less than Hartley in each game)
5) Is Hartley's place in the squad due to being captain, or the lack of any other players, outside of George, capable of playing international rugby.



Add your own discussion points, but please lets leave this issue out of the AI threads

BamBam wrote:Saracens (Wray) broke the cap rules

Saracens (Wray) bullied the other clubs into a legal agreement not to disclose the breach

That is why there is no evidence in the public eye

Wray can take his supposed innocence and shove it where the sun doesn't shine

But....but....but....but proof bambam, proof where is your pro........ Ooooh look it's over there I better look away

You also forgot how the two teams in question bullied the other clubs not to enforce the full punishment in accordance with their own rules.

Oh I can't be bothered. Going round in circles again.

Bambam are you going to ever say something constructive?


carpet baboon my last comment on salary is innocent till proven guilty.

It's also missing the point - if you want to rant about salary create a new thread which you and Bambam can share.

Yeah this thread is about why it's better to start hartley over george.

But there is proof. That's why two clubs got fined. The PRL announced it

So who will replace hartley in the nations. Taylor or LCD?

If the form from the Argentina game continues, isn't the question who replaces George?

Bambam you are on thin ice yourself. Tempted to put you on ignore too.

If you've got nothing intelligent to say I'll put you on the naughty step with no 7 & 1/2.

Yes he doesn't like being challenged bam. Know your role.

beshocked wrote:Bambam you are on thin ice yourself. Tempted to put you on ignore too.

If you've got nothing intelligent to say I'll put you on the naughty step with no 7 & 1/2.

Lucky I'm not as fat as Jamie George then

I'm only kidding, please don't put me on the naughty step

the settlements were made against background threats of legal action against Premiership Rugby in the European Court, threats of actions against individual clubs and warnings of non-cooperation on unconnected, but important, commercial and strategic issues.

Both McCafferty and Chairman Quentin Smith have repeatedly stated that there is a binding confidentiality agreement that precludes giving details. This is convenient as it also allows them to denounce anything said as speculation. Smith likened the situation to a criminal case where we are all bound by statutory evidential rules. To use a considered legal term - This Is B****cks. They know a private commercial agreement can easily be varied or confidentiality waived, especially when transparency is thought more important.

Fans know that two of those clubs contested last season’s Premiership final and have not missed the point that even though the cap has been raised some cannot spend up to it. Further, even those that can have to integrate new players whilst others have already done this and so any unfair advantage is maintained for probably another season.

Just some of Brian Moore's feelings on the salary cap incident. Now I'm sure he knows one or two people who were in the room when PRL were looking into this

If any of our 3rd choice hookers were for or in good form it should be George starting and LCD e.g. on the bench.
Hartley didn't have a bad game but he isn't seeming to be able to change the course of games on his own.
I want to see George start and see how he goes. I think he's owed that chance.

Can't be bothered writing a thread and don't want to put it on a match thread. I do want to laugh at geordie s reaction though...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/amp/

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't be bothered writing a thread and don't want to put it on a match thread. I do want to laugh at geordie s reaction though...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/amp/

A version of this Telegraph story on the NZ Herald site - by the same writers - has this paragraph:

The world champions are understood to believe Brad Shields has been given sufficient encouragement by England to reject Steve Hansen's request for him to play against France last week and defect to the Premiership next summer. However, there has been no direct contact between England and Shields, nor has he been given any guarantees.

Not sure how England are supposed to have given "indirect encouragement".

Yup. Not a clue. Just reading a but more the story has changed slightly to say nz withdrew their offer of a cap rather than he turned it down. Plus apparently his parents who I believe are both English have moved back to England which was a pull to him moving to the prem as well. Like I said just waiting for geordie!

Very good player. An abrasive, powerful 6 who can carry and jackle, just what we need really. I'd take him with open arms.

Just for you 7.5

FFS

Soon it'll be a foreign journeyman 15 representing England. A united nations of accents...all but feckin English!!!

Yay.

In all fairness he's actually pretty qualified to play for us. Certainly compared to Hughes, Solomana, etc etc

Has Dylan lost his deity status?
Is he still on a pedestal?

Downgrade to national treasure status?

LondonTiger wrote:Has Dylan lost his deity status?
Is he still on a pedestal?

Until the praise lavished on Hartley stops then no.

Well yes, he's still Jones' first choice captain and 1st choice hooker.

A start is a start but still George has less starts than the likes of Hughes,Lozowski,Williams,Ewels,Underhill and Genge despite having more caps....

Jones sees George as a fringe hooker. He's playing with the 2nd and 3rd choices primarily.

It's like giving someone scraps. Scraps are still scraps, doesn't matter if you sugarcoat them or not.

It's a start I guess but one swallow does not make a summer.

So not only does George have to start but nobody can praise Hartley?

scottrf you can praise him if you want but don't pretend like Jones doesn't love Hartley.

I just don't like it when Hartley is given credit for things he didn't do.

beshocked wrote:scottrf you can praise him if you want but don't pretend like Jones doesn't love Hartley.

I just don't like it when Hartley is given credit for things he didn't do.

But it's ok to praise George for everything that happens when he's on the pitch?

Just checking the rules

carpet baboon wrote:

beshocked wrote:scottrf you can praise him if you want but don't pretend like Jones doesn't love Hartley.

I just don't like it when Hartley is given credit for things he didn't do.

But it's ok to praise George for everything that happens when he's on the pitch?

Just checking the rules

Depends on the contribution.

Hartley is given a lot of credit for the wins, more than his fair share I'd say. George in comparison is given very little. Despite both players being involved in most of the victories.

Of course George wasn't with England on the Argentina tour. So he can't get credit for those victories.


You'd think from Jones' comments on Hartley, that Hartley put in a MOTM performance... vs Australia.

Jones there are other players in the squad...oh and also don't forget the work done by the other coaches...

Do you ever stop whinging?

Beshocked are you George's mum? Or agent? Or life partner?
If so fair enough.
If not, well maybe go talk to a professional it could help

What are the odds Jamie George turns an ankle during warm-up, and can't play?

Rugby Fan wrote:What are the odds Jamie George turns an ankle during warm-up, and can't play?

Or someone bites a chunk out of him.

Rugby Fan wrote:What are the odds Jamie George turns an ankle during warm-up, and can't play?

That has sparked a thought I have had for a little while.

Clubs usually take extra players, especially specialists, to away games just for this scenario and will have spares for home games naturally.

However what would England do id 10 minutes before kick off they lost a hooker or TH prop?

I imagine it's more likely George takes a bite out of somebody else. The lad looks like he has a decent appetite.

carpet baboon wrote:Beshocked are you George's mum? Or agent? Or life partner?
If so fair enough.
If not, well maybe go talk to a professional it could help

None of the above. Just as a passionate Saracens fan.

It's a fair point that I shouldn't go on about it so much.

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter.

They'd only.be able to name 7 subs LT and if the hooker in this case was.injured we'd be down to 14 men.

To be fair I do prefer my hookers (of the rugby variety anyway) to look as if they spend their cash on pies not hair product.

You can't possibly compare the suave Szarzewski to Hibbard

Old Richard looks like a bloke down the pub dressed in drag, while Szarzewski is lusted over by many (allegedly)

The girl next to me in the office agrees that it goes Szarzewski >>>>> George > Hibbard

BamBam wrote:You can't possibly compare the suave Szarzewski to Hibbard

I suspect that they both spend a similar amount on male grooming products though.

I suggest Hibbard should spend more

The girl next to me in the office agrees that it goes Szarzewski >>>>> George > Hibbard

This "girl" wouldn't happen to be you would it Bam? There's nothing to be embarrassed about, lesser men then you have fell for a sexy Hooker.

Na I'd pick Dylan Hartley every time

Well, after about 60 minutes on Saturday we shall see just how well JG has performed when he has to spread his effort over a longer time span and how well Hartley can do over 20 minutes against a tired side.

It will also be interesting to see how they perform without Hartley's leadership id they get into a bit of trouble.

I have little doubt though that if it is a negative, it will be the fault of the other front row or the locks. Possibly that Care is so short that George could not see the ball coming over his stomach.

I expect George to have a fairly average game as starter and do a lot of the boring stuff. Not sure what Hartley may do... Can't picture him being dynamic!

Really hope George nails it on Saturday.

well-past-it it is a bit worrying that there's no decent lineout lock playing at 4 or 5.

Sure I guess Itoje shall take the responsibility though despite wearing the 6 shirt.

If Hartley is such a great leader then surely this should be apparent at Saints also.

Hartley has an easy time as England captain because the squad is strong and experienced.

At Saints it is more of a challenge, there is more adversity and yet Hartley has not delivered.

He is also immune from criticism. You'll notice none of the scrum woes are aimed at him. I guess it's because some players are immune from criticism and some are not.

Admittedly the Argentina tour was different as he actually had to lead a relatively inexperienced team.

Vs Australia in the front five there was - 314 caps.....

His greatest achievement as England captain has been leading that inexperienced tour to Argentina IMO.

As for the other wins that he's captained -- well they've been team efforts.

He seems to get more credit because he stays on the field, rather than being sin binned.

beshocked wrote:

Hartley has an easy time as England captain because the squad is strong and experienced.

At Saints it is more of a challenge, there is more adversity and yet Hartley has not delivered.

I think those two sides of a coin explain themselves. You're always going to achieve more with a good side than with a weaker one. All players benefit from the connection to each other with England...not just Hartley.

I doubt you'll get any Saints fan questioning Hartley's captaincy. And I say that including him potentially costing us a prem title against our biggest rivals. We just play better as a team with him on the pitch.

Ewels is a good lineout jumper

BamBam wrote:You can't possibly compare the suave Szarzewski to Hibbard

Old Richard looks like a bloke down the pub dressed in drag, while Szarzewski is lusted over by many (allegedly)

The girl next to me in the office agrees that it goes Szarzewski >>>>> George > Hibbard

I agree with this, however whilst watching Glos recently, my missus remarked that Hibbard looks like an out of shape Chris Hemsworth (he of Thor fame).

I found this puzzling to say the least. Still, bodes well for me I suppose...

And Launchbury takes shed loads of ball from the lineout from wasps. Personally think his maul defence is top notch and he's probably the best we have at taking kickoff s which is so important in the game and undervalued.

England captain Dylan Hartley is fully prepared to support the squad in his role as a finisher in the final Old Mutual Wealth Series game against Samoa on Saturday.

Saracens hooker Jamie George replaces Hartley and will make his first start for England at hooker after coming on as finisher 19 times so far in his England career.

Now Hartley says he is ready to provide that same role to George and the rest of the squad on Saturday at Twickenham Stadium.

“He’s supported me for all those games and it’s now my time to support him,” said 31-year-old.

“That’s the good thing about this team, we’ve got a bigger picture in mind and everyone is driving towards that. He’s understood his role, he's given to the team and now it is my chance to do the same.

He gives a lot to the team, off the field as well he’s very good for us. That’s what you need, you need everyone giving something in some manner and he definitely gives it."

Seven players have been given their first starts of this autumn series as head coach Eddie Jones tries out new combinations in different opportunities.

“I understand what we’re doing, we’re growing the squad just like we did in Argentina,” added Hartley.

“This week is a great opportunity to showcase how strong we are."

Continual improvement
Hartley's role as a finisher is the first time he has started from the bench under Eddie Jones, and his first time for England since the last game against Samoa in 2014. "We’re getting better every time we train."

Wins against Argentina and Australia so far in November have continued England’s impressive record since Jones took charge with 21 wins in his 22 games, and Northampton skipper Hartley has seen their improvement during their time together.

"It's a team that trusts and knows each other," he said. "We’ve been together three weeks now and we’re getting better every time we train, every time we play we’re getting better as a team.

“By the time that Wolrd Cup comes around if we’ve got those same combinations and same faces in the squad, obviously all there by earning it, we’ll be in a good place definitely.

“The core of the team’s been unchanged for a couple of years and beyond that really - there’s a lot of good relationships happening here."
From rfu twitter.