Squad wrangles, top order worries and who takes the wickets: Pre-Ashes Selections and Thoughts Thread

[Dolphin Ziggler]

First topic message reminder :

I was erring on the side of "too soon" when wondering whether to start this thread, but then I saw Olly had 12-fingered a "World Cup 2019" thread already and thought I was probably ok.

So, we move away from the West Indies and look at a trip Down Under to my second favourite country in the world; aye, we're heading to Australia for The Ashes.

And for us, there are many things to worry about. The top order hasn't really answered any questions firmly this summer: 3 of the top 5 could arguably count themselves lucky to be selected come November 23rd and a trip to Brisbane. It wouldn't be a surprise, given how things have gone, to see one of those dropped by the time we head to Adelaide for a day-nighter that will give those of us with jobs more of a chance to see some cricket!

There are questions in the bowling attack too, although you could be kind and say there's only one. Who is the other seamer? If Wood stays fit, surely he is the man to bring that real fizz that we'll need? But will he be fit? I know Oliver is sure of Woakes, and I do feel his strength with the bat could be useful with the shaky feeling about so many of the batsmen. One could also argue that it is how hard it is to really nail your colours to any of the options below the starting Xi that really keeps a less than inspiring (but still relatively well-performing) Stuart Broad away from much pressure.

Bayliss has said it's unlikely that any new faces will be picked. but with the amount of players England have got through lately, that still keeps us guessing somewhat.

Second spinner? Back-up wicket keeper? Where does Root bat and how does that change the side?

And what of Australia? I think it is safe to say that neither side is coming in with a classic XI on show. 

As I have confessed, I know by no means as much as pretty much anyone who comes to this part of the site, so enjoy reading and learning as we go. 

Go forth and predict your squad(s), XI(s) and discuss all and sundry whilst the words are meaningless and the rivalry brews.

[GSC]

Vince, Ballance, Malan... the Aus seam attack must be counting the days to the first test

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Full squad - apparently:

Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root (capt), Malan, Ballance, Stokes, Bairstow (wkt), Foakes (wkt), Moeen, Crane, Woakes, Broad, Anderson, Ball, C.Overton.

Only issue with this is the selection of Crane - unless he plays, he really should be playing with the Lions rather than carrying drinks. Otherwise can't complain - the batters to choose from was much of a muchness, Vince does have the most natural ability imo of the candidates, so hopefully that comes through.

Like the Overton and Ball selections.

[alfie]

Are we all assuming this "leak" is gospel ?

Wouldn't be the first time some journalist has got ahead of himself and got things quite wrong.

If it is the finished product then I'm mainly bothered at why they're wasting a ticket on Ballance again. Vince is a Hail Mary call surely but he's probably got as much chance as anyone else of scoring runs at three. Or as little

No problem with Overton ; but I hope the main bowlers stay fit. And , like Olly , I question the wisdom of having Crane there for net practice when he could be playing matches for the Lions.

[alfie]

Not happy about this Stokes business ; rotten timing , overshadows the squad announcement ; shows he still hasn't developed any sense off the field ...and depending on the actual events could see him in serious trouble with the law.
Do they keep him as vice captain ? I don't think I would. Michael Vaughan has written a fairly forthright article about it and for once I fully agree with him...

[GSC]

Agrees has all but "confirmed " that leak I think

[GSC]

Now confirmed.

Think Ballance is pretty lucky to keep getting chances. Vince and Malan not sure are particularly up to scratch but aside from Hales not sure there's much out there.

[GSC]

And Stokes should've been provisionally stripped of the vice captaincy. Time to grow up.

[Duty281]

Depressing to see how much England have declined in seven years; then I suppose these things go in cycles.

Weak squad, too dependent on a few star names = easy Aussie win.

[dummy_half]

Squad looks to be same as leaked earlier.

No back up specialist opener
Vince, Ballance, Malan to fill the problem roles of 3 and 5
Ball and Craig Overton as back up seamers
Crane as back up spinner
Foakes over Buttler as reserve keeper (presumably...)

Not impressed - presumably Woood considered not fit enough, but so far I've found Ball uninspiring.
Vince and Ballance is giving further chances to those who've failed before. Has Vince shown any form recently? Ballance hasn't since his injury.

No issue with Foakes getting a chance - has batted well recently too.

Crane? Rashid must really have upset someone - seems now to fall into the same category as Plunkett: only considered for limited overs games. Not suggesting Adil is a match winner in Tests, but he's shown himself reasonably competent at least. Crane is a stab in the dark.

[Gooseberry]

Not happy about this Stokes business ; rotten timing , overshadows the squad announcement ; shows he still hasn't developed any sense off the field ...and depending on the actual events could see him in serious trouble with the law.
Do they keep him as vice captain ?  I don't think I would.  Michael Vaughan has written a fairly forthright article about it and for once I fully agree with him...

Hes been releaased without charge, so lets not prejudge too much. More often than not these cases are deliberate provocation by a member of the public who then exagerattes to the police. Now of course yes he shouldve known better than to actually throw and punch which does seem to be pretty undisputed, but the wider context and real events we just dont know. It certainly doesnt sound anyway near as serious as it was initially portrayed.

I think its correct that they wait to find out what actually hapopen and at least speak to him properly before making any decision on the vice captaincy, or a suspension. It may be that its warrented, it may not be. One things for sure after this and thats that the Aussie supporters will be gunning for him at every opportunity....fully expect some vile media hack articles too.

Its not that long ago that Warner punched Root unprovoked, quickly forgotten by most and unpunished by the law. Its not affected his career in the long term, nor did the slap on the wrist he recieved stop him form being an agressive character.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Do find it weird people seem to be completely overlooking the fact the Aussies have many big issues of their own - the main one being their fast bowlers can't seem to get out of bed without getting crocked and they have no batting beyond #5

[GSC]

Stokes has a fracture in his hand.

Prat doesn't do it justice.

[alfie]

Not happy about this Stokes business ; rotten timing , overshadows the squad announcement ; shows he still hasn't developed any sense off the field ...and depending on the actual events could see him in serious trouble with the law.
Do they keep him as vice captain ?  I don't think I would.  Michael Vaughan has written a fairly forthright article about it and for once I fully agree with him...

Hes been releaased without charge, so lets not prejudge too much. More often than not these cases are deliberate provocation by a member of the public who then exagerattes to the police. Now of course yes he shouldve known better than to actually throw and punch which does seem to be pretty undisputed, but the wider context and real events we just dont know. It certainly doesnt sound anyway near as serious as it was initially portrayed.

I think its correct that they wait to find out what actually hapopen and at least speak to him properly before making any decision on the vice captaincy, or a suspension. It may be that its warrented, it may not be. One things for sure after this and thats that the Aussie supporters will be gunning for him at every opportunity....fully expect some vile media hack articles too.

Its not that long ago that Warner punched Root unprovoked, quickly forgotten by most and unpunished by the law. Its not affected his career in the long term, nor did the slap on the wrist he recieved stop him form being an agressive character.

Oh I'm not making any judgement on the "assault" , goose ...as you say , we have to wait and see the true circumstances. But to be drinking in a club (allegedly a rather less than safe one?) at 2.30 am during a series of ODIs ? They might not have a curfew - they are grown men , after all - but common sense suggests this isn't recommended behavior. As it this case ; often leads to trouble , of whoever's making. Think England should expect better judgement from a prospective leader.

And he has previous.

[dummy_half]

Olly

I don't think we're really ignoring the fact. Agree the Aussie batting has probably even more holes than ours, but if they can get their best quicks fit they've got some weaponry, and if you do have a 2 man batting line-up, on current form Smith and Warner are about the best two...

I actually expect a competitive series - may be a bit like Eng v SA, because both teams have weaknesses it will be whoever fires in each match will likely win quite comfortably.

[jimbohammers]

Happy to see Foakes in the squad. Deserves his call up IMO. I'd put Bairstow up the order to 4 and give Foakes the gloves.

I'm a big Vince fan but he hasn't been in great form in the 4 day stuff. He has been picked because of his talent/potential and they clearly feel he has the game for Australian pitches.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Olly

I don't think we're really ignoring the fact. Agree the Aussie batting has probably even more holes than ours, but if they can get their best quicks fit they've got some weaponry, and if you do have a 2 man batting line-up, on current form Smith and Warner are about the best two...

I actually expect a competitive series - may be a bit like Eng v SA, because both teams have weaknesses it will be whoever fires in each match will likely win quite comfortably.

Agree with that final paragraph massively Dummy - will be very reminiscent of the Eng/SA squads and series I think.

Englands all rounders will be crucial - If Moeen/Stokes/Woakes are on form I think England take it...

[alfie]

As I look at that now confirmed squad the main issue I have is the shortage of top order bats - and right handlers. I'd expected one spare opener rather than several possible fives...though looking back at previous selection it seems likely they are pencilling in Ballance at three as he was before his convenient injury.
There is some logic to this , I suppose. His replacement didn't do enough ; and he has both experience of the conditions and a pretty good first class season behind him. But I rather discount his CC runs as past experience suggests they don't translate into success against strong international attacks in conditions that suit them : I am not confident .
Root and the rest may have some repair work to do ; though if Cook and Stoneman can get some good starts it may not be that bad.
At least Vince is an option at five - and right handed ! Though I cannot see what he has done this season to catapult him ahead of all other contenders . I see a quote that they feel his batting style will suit the pitches : well maybe. I'm thinking caught second slip attempting a flashing cover drive...

Ball represents continuity. Overton looks to the future. I'd have preferred Plunkett but won't die in a ditch over the fast bowling...if the main bowlers don't perform they've got big problems anyway. Not surprised they haven't risked Wood : history says taking injured - or recovering - fast bowlers to Australia is a waste of time.

The saving grace to all this is the proximity of the Lions. Will be very interesting to see who is in that party ; if they have the flexibility to move someone across as needed it might prove a vital resource at some point in the tour.
I trust Stokes' punching/bowling hand will recover in time

[alfie]

Olly

I don't think we're really ignoring the fact. Agree the Aussie batting has probably even more holes than ours, but if they can get their best quicks fit they've got some weaponry, and if you do have a 2 man batting line-up, on current form Smith and Warner are about the best two...

I actually expect a competitive series - may be a bit like Eng v SA, because both teams have weaknesses it will be whoever fires in each match will likely win quite comfortably.

Agree with that final paragraph massively Dummy - will be very reminiscent of the Eng/SA squads and series I think.

Englands all rounders will be crucial - If Moeen/Stokes/Woakes are on form I think England take it...

Glad to see some optimism on here - especially since Duty has turned into The Prophet of Doom : I certainly wouldn't be conceding in advance.

Key as I see it is whether England can score heavily on Australian pitches - which are unlikely to be particularly bowler friendly but will of course afford more bounce than these batsmen are accustomed to . Past England teams successful in Australia have usually had a strong top three. (Think Boycott/Luckhurst/Edrich for Illingworth's party ; or Strauss/Cook/Trott in 2010/11). Not sure I can see that this time...hopefully the extremely strong later order will compensate.

Get enough runs - regular 400s - and I would fancy the bowlers to get the job done. I've seen comments that Anderson won't be effective but can't agree : he was excellent in 2010/11 ; last time much less so - partly because of the excellence of Chris Rogers and partly from a distinct lack of support for he and Broad : once Swann was taken apart at the Gabba it was a case of see off the openers and party time for the Aussie bats...
OK slight exaggeration. In fact Australia had to rely on Haddin to dig them out once or twice anyway : but my point is that Broad and Anderson are well capable of getting the wickets if the other bowlers are also able to maintain pressure. Won't be bowling the Aussies out for 120 ; but I think the attack as it stands - even without any extreme pace - is good for the job.

The biggest danger is getting a rotten start in Brisbane and folding up under the pressure ...which will be liberally applied by the local media. A difficult place to come back from an early reverse. Though Hutton managed it...

Yorkshireman in charge this time too

[guildfordbat]

Just to say that the absence of an obvious back up opener is a big vote of support for Stoneman.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Who wants to bat three?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

So The Sun have managed to get video of Stokes flooring the dude and its on their front page tomorrow

Sh*t gorn hit the fan

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I'm sure the nationality of who owns the Sun and who England play next has nothing to do with why they've splashed this everywhere..........

[GSC]

I'd have had it'll sell a load of copies and generate a load of views.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Actually if you read the story online apparently two men were threatening Stokes, and one clearly has a bottle......

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4563420/england-cricket-ace-ben-stokes-nightclub-brawl-video/

Ah yeah he's screwed

[compelling and rich]

yeah ive just watched the video, not good that. be very surprised if he makes the ashes after that

[Duty281]

Yes, I imagine the public pressure to sack him from the squad will be too great.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Yes, I imagine the public pressure to sack him from the squad will be too great.

Hmm - I think let the court of law decide his punishment...not sure the ECB should be sacking/taking disciplinary action before it's gone through that process.

[compelling and rich]

well flintoff was stripped of his vice captaincy and banned for much much less. stokes will be a lucky boy not to do time, the other lads weren't even doing anything by the end of the video and stokes continued to assault them

[sirfredperry]

I've been banging on for ages about getting Foakes into the team and playing Bairstow as a batsman, as all England have been doing is wasting a place with a batsman not making any runs.
   How the heck did Vince get into the team? And I see that England have fallen into the usual trap of taking a player - Crane - for experience instead of taking someone who can/will get into the Test starting XI if required.
   This must be the weakest batting line-up England have ever taken to Australia. But we must all live in hope. I recall the 58-59 tour of Australia when England took, arguably, their strongest side ever Down Under (certainly in the bowling) only to promptly lose.....4-0.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

well flintoff was stripped of his vice captaincy and banned for much much less. stokes will be a lucky boy not to do time, the other lads weren't even doing anything by the end of the video and stokes continued to assault them

Obviously he goes way too far - but initially he appears to be defending his mates from a dude with a bottle. He can probably get away with some community service. I mean if Rooney can drive his car round off his head, and play the next Saturday, Stokes should be fine to do some service/a fine and go down under.

[GSC]

It would surprise me if Stokes isn't playing the first test.

Would also surprise me if he's playing as vice captain.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

It would surprise me if Stokes isn't playing the first test.

Would also surprise me if he's playing as vice captain.

Completely agree with this

[Dolphin Ziggler]

There is some acceptance in the law that self defence and then the Heat of the fight can go further than that first punch

[GSC]

There's also that the vice captain of the test side was out on the piss a couple of days before a game.

[compelling and rich]

he will definitely lose his vice captaincy, he cant carry on after that.

few of my police mates who have seen the video seem to think he'll be in trouble. joe bloggs from the street probably would but im sure stokes expensive lawyers will manage to get him nothing too serious. the last punch where the guy clearly isnt a threat and cheaps shots him to knock him down will be the one to get him in trouble. no excuse for self defence for that one

[Duty281]

Yes, I imagine the public pressure to sack him from the squad will be too great.

Hmm - I think let the court of law decide his punishment...not sure the ECB should be sacking/taking disciplinary action before it's gone through that process.

Agreed. But we all know what the results of a media witch hunt can achieve.

[LionsV2]

he will definitely lose his vice captaincy, he cant carry on after that.

few of my police mates who have seen the video seem to think he'll be in trouble. joe bloggs from the street probably would but im sure stokes expensive lawyers will manage to get him nothing too serious. the last punch where the guy clearly isnt a threat and cheaps shots him to knock him down will be the one to get him in trouble. no excuse for self defence for that one

If someone has threatened you or someone your with, with a glass bottle i'd argue that it's reasonable force to ensure the incapacitation of that person.

[alfie]

This place not quite as judgemental as some , I'm pleased to see.

Not looking good for Stokes one way or another. Apart from legal issues it sounds as if this is going to have a pretty heavy mental and emotional effect on him : which may - eventually - be all to the good ; but right now may present just as big a barrier to his playing International cricket as the Wrath of the Self-righteous Public...

Strauss and the ECB are absolutely right to withhold knee jerk action. Get all the facts they can ; decide what they must do from the point of view of what is best for English cricket - for that is what they are paid to do. The law is best left to the police and the legal system.

What results from either is something we have to wait and see. The only people who can possibly be happy about the whole lamentable affair is those Australians who want to win at all costs because it hurts England whatever the final wash up. And in fact I suspect most true Australian cricket fans would sooner beat a full strength England anyway...

[compelling and rich]

hales and stokes wont be considered for selection until further notice. no idea if that will be before or after the ashes. would imagine it will be after whatever is charged.

having seen the video im not too sure what hales has done wrong, was he the one throwing a kick on someone on the floor?

[Afro]

Hales and Stokes both suspended by England until further notice.

[Afro]

I think Stokes biggest problem is going to be that everyone else seems to have stopped fighting prior to the point where he sparks the guy flat out.

That doesn't look like self defence but just someone who isn't in control

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I'll only get worried about his Ashes chances if they announce a replacement and suspend his pay - he's basically just taken out of the spotlight for the moment, which was to be expected

[Duty281]

A suspension until further notice, so I think it's fairly likely that that's his Ashes tour over before it's begun.

[Afro]

The ECB must be pulling their out. They want to select him, but have to be seen to treat him the same as everyone else. No special treatment because he is vital to our chances this winter.

What would they have done if it was Gary Balance or Dawid Malan? Probably taken them straight out of the Ashes reckoning.

[LionsV2]

Take him regardless I say.

[ShahenshahG]

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/cricket/859914/Ben-Stokes-Harvey-Price-video-England-cricket-star-mimicks-Katie-Price-disabled-son

Er I think strauss better start looking elsewhere

[GSC]

Well, he almost certainly won't be on the plane now...

[Afro]

What a pillock

[compelling and rich]

only got himslef to blame. just seems like a massive d!ck. if he wasnt such a good all rounder he would have thrown under the bus by fans and ecb already

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