Wales squad for Summer Tour

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Forwards: Scott Baldwin (Ospreys), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Kristian Dacey (Cardiff Blues), Seb Davies (Cardiff Blues), Ryan Elias (Scarlets), Rob Evans (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Ollie Griffiths (Newport Gwent Dragons), Cory Hill (Newport Gwent Dragons), Ellis Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), James King (Ospreys), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Rory Thornton (Ospreys), Thomas Young (Wasps).

Backs:Cory Allen (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Sam Davies (Ospreys), Steff Evans (Scarlets), Keelan Giles (Ospreys), Tyler Morgan (Newport Gwent Dragons), Jamie Roberts (captain, Harlequins), Owen Williams (Leicester Tigers), Rhun Williams (Cardiff Blues), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues).

This is what I think McBryde will pick.

I didn't know whether he'd go Davies or Anscombe at ten, but I do think both will play.

RiscaGame wrote:This is what I think McBryde will pick.

I didn't know whether he'd go Davies or Anscombe at ten, but I do think both will play.

I'd say that Anscombe is more likely at 15. Personally I'd play a back 3 of 11. Giles 14. Evans 15. Williams.

I dont understand selecting Anscombe at all; he has demonstrated that he is not upto it and though he showed potential in S15 he has never been able to step up to international standard in any convincing way. IMO we have other options we should be pursuing at both 10 and 15, either way, last chance saloon for him I think.

Gwlad wrote:I dont understand selecting Anscombe at all; he has demonstrated that he is not upto it and though he showed potential in S15 he has never been able to step up to international standard in any convincing way. IMO we have other options we should be pursuing at both 10 and 15, either way, last chance saloon for him I think.

That's a bit strong but this is the ideal tour for a 2nd/3rd choice player. As the season has gone on he has improved whilst Davies has regressed. I actually think it's Davies who's more likely to fail at international rugby as Anscombe has already shown he is capable of playing at this level in more than one position. I expect Owen Williams will feature at some point but they couldn't just throw him in I guess.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I dont understand selecting Anscombe at all; he has demonstrated that he is not upto it and though he showed potential in S15 he has never been able to step up to international standard in any convincing way. IMO we have other options we should be pursuing at both 10 and 15, either way, last chance saloon for him I think.

That's a bit strong but this is the ideal tour for a 2nd/3rd choice player. As the season has gone on he has improved whilst Davies has regressed. I actually think it's Davies who's more likely to fail at international rugby as Anscombe has already shown he is capable of playing at this level in more than one position. I expect Owen Williams will feature at some point but they couldn't just throw him in I guess.

Really? Not sure Davies has had a fair run at 10 yet for us to know yet? What is it about Davies makes you think that? With Anscombe I just think he has been given various opportunities and I have never seen him really have a great game at this level.

Gwlad wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I dont understand selecting Anscombe at all; he has demonstrated that he is not upto it and though he showed potential in S15 he has never been able to step up to international standard in any convincing way. IMO we have other options we should be pursuing at both 10 and 15, either way, last chance saloon for him I think.

That's a bit strong but this is the ideal tour for a 2nd/3rd choice player. As the season has gone on he has improved whilst Davies has regressed. I actually think it's Davies who's more likely to fail at international rugby as Anscombe has already shown he is capable of playing at this level in more than one position. I expect Owen Williams will feature at some point but they couldn't just throw him in I guess.

Really? Not sure Davies has had a fair run at 10 yet for us to know yet? What is it about Davies makes you think that? With Anscombe I just think he has been given various opportunities and I have never seen him really have a great game at this level.

Well part of the bit you've pointed out has been pretty obvious if you have been watching Welsh rugby this season. I thought Davies was poor at U20 level and he's now a bit overhyped. The worst is his erratic kick game, lack of pace and how he struggles defensively. You can't be an international fly-half with all that (Priestland). You're right that Davies hasn't had a go at 10 and I think he was more deserving of that in the autumn than Anscombe - and thank god he nailed that drop-goal against Japan. Given the amount of opportunities Priestland had its a bit ironic to see so many Turks slagging off Anscombe - it was especially evident when they announced his new contract. I wouldn't write him off just yet. Hopefully all 3 (Davies, Anscombe, Williams) get some game time this summer and we're in a better position to judge. Can't see McBryde doing much with this squad tbh - he needs to go and take Howley. It would be great if Gatland pinched Farrell and Borthwick...

I was under the impression his kicking game was a strength so somewhat surprised to see that it is now under scrutiny. We certainly can't afford another Priestland. As for Anscombe I think the problem with him is hype; we were all lead to believe that he was some Super 15 dynamo but in reality he showed up and was distinctly average and had clearly been made to look good in S15, just not up to international standard. I would be happy to see him succeed but he needs to have an impact on a game and I can't recall any evidence of that yet. For me I would certainly like to see Williams come on and develop as I think Bigger isn't the man for the RWC but we are fast running out of time.
Its too much to hope for that we had changes in camp but yes I respect what Farrell has done with the Lions. Seems to compliment Gats but I can't see him doing owt but rub our kid Shaun up the wrong way!

Howley who? You mean the new Teflon man, clearly has photos of Gats falling over in the shower!

I think Anscombe should play 10 after today; he's so good at getting the backs moving that he's often a step ahead. Assuming Stef Evans misses out they might put Davies to full back, with Cuthbert and Giles on each wing. Owen Williams to come off the bench. 10 and 15 to interchange as I'm not sure who would be the worse defender against the Tongans, im gonna say Davies.

I just dont see why Cuthbert is even going, we all know he is finished at the top level so why not bring on a youngster or utility back 3. He is going to get another massive beating and his confidence will keep falling, we can't afford to be this narrow minded 2 years out.

Clearly they can be that narrow minded, or they wouldn't have named Doctor Truckup captain

On this form Cuthbert is a good second choice player. I imagine Giles will be on the other wing so he should enhance his career prospects. If we were playing Romania I'd put in more new caps but do it against these Pacific island guys and we're looking at a re-run of Japan.

What do you think of Dollman as a FB

It seems a bit odd calling up an uncapped 32 year old for what is largely a development tour.

LondonTiger wrote:It seems a bit odd calling up an uncapped 32 year old for what is largely a development tour.

Stef Evans will probably banned and Rhun Williams, who is an U20 got injured. We didn't have much of a choice. It'll be interesting to see what Dollman can do and perhaps earning a Wales cap will mean a lot to him. Furthermore I don't think this should be treated as a development tour otherwise we get a repeat of Japan where we lost and nobody was developed.

a) It's not a development tour
b) Aaron Shingler called up

Great news. Not only do we now have a blind-side in the squad, we have one who is on fire. About time McBryde.

Gwlad wrote:I just dont see why Cuthbert is even going, we all know he is finished at the top level so why not bring on a youngster or utility back 3. He is going to get another massive beating and his confidence will keep falling, we can't afford to be this narrow minded 2 years out.

What happened to Cuthbert? He was once a very good winger (ok defensively not that strong) with excellent speed and strength. The last two to three seasons he has gone backwards at a rate of knots...

Just seen it's King that Shingler is replacing. I don't think King has played as well as previous seasons, plus he was always average at international level. I think this leaves us with a back-row of Shingler, Jenkins, Navidi.

eirebilly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I just dont see why Cuthbert is even going, we all know he is finished at the top level so why not bring on a youngster or utility back 3. He is going to get another massive beating and his confidence will keep falling, we can't afford to be this narrow minded 2 years out.

What happened to Cuthbert? He was once a very good winger (ok defensively not that strong) with excellent speed and strength. The last two to three seasons he has gone backwards at a rate of knots...

His recent form has been excellent.

mikey_dragon wrote:Just seen it's King that Shingler is replacing. I don't King has played as well as previous seasons, plus he was always average at international level. I think this leaves us with a back-row of Shingler, Jenkins, Navidi.

Where's Thomas Young and Ollie Griffiths gone?

Gwlad wrote:I was under the impression his kicking game was a strength so somewhat surprised to see that it is now under scrutiny. We certainly can't afford another Priestland. As for Anscombe I think the problem with him is hype; we were all lead to believe that he was some Super 15 dynamo but in reality he showed up and was distinctly average and had clearly been made to look good in S15, just not up to international standard. I would be happy to see him succeed but he needs to have an impact on a game and I can't recall any evidence of that yet. For me I would certainly like to see Williams come on and develop as I think Bigger isn't the man for the RWC but we are fast running out of time.
Its too much to hope for that we had changes in camp but yes I respect what Farrell has done with the Lions. Seems to compliment Gats but I can't see him doing owt but rub our kid Shaun up the wrong way!

Howley who? You mean the new Teflon man, clearly has photos of Gats falling over in the shower!

Your appreciation of Anscombe is comical. He is a fine player but, as with every other 10, requires players to play off him in order to "shine". He's played in a poor Cardiff Blues team but their playing record is vastly improved when he plays. Once the players have learned to play off him, he's a very classy player. It's quite obvious to see this if you can understand the game at that level.

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Just seen it's King that Shingler is replacing. I don't King has played as well as previous seasons, plus he was always average at international level. I think this leaves us with a back-row of Shingler, Jenkins, Navidi.

Where's Thomas Young and Ollie Griffiths gone?

Not sure mate, I'll give them a text now.

eirebilly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:I just dont see why Cuthbert is even going, we all know he is finished at the top level so why not bring on a youngster or utility back 3. He is going to get another massive beating and his confidence will keep falling, we can't afford to be this narrow minded 2 years out.

What happened to Cuthbert? He was once a very good winger (ok defensively not that strong) with excellent speed and strength. The last two to three seasons he has gone backwards at a rate of knots...

Cuthbert cam from the 7s circuit. In fact, when he was in some of his best Wales form he was actually still on a 7s contract (very low pay) but winning a Grand Slam for Wales, if memory serves. I give him stick, but he was a very good player. For me it is the move away from the 7s game that has done for him a bit. That confidence that 7s gives you to have a go, exploit space, defend big open spaces, etc. has been lost a bit by his concentration on the 15 man game. I'm not necessarily advocating that he goes back to 7s, but I think he was better when he was involved/recently involved in that scene.

I wouldn't put Sam Davies at FB in an international match. Particularly against Samoa you need someone more robust. Not sure who that would be from the squad they've picked. Maybe Anscombe.

As for him, I've been fairly impressed watching him for the Blues and he's done alright for Wales when he's been used.

Thomas Young has to be in that back row.

rosbif wrote:What do you think of Dollman as a FB

Decent enough full back, but as someone who is out of the Wales set up, unless he's leaving Exeter this Summer and coming to play for one of the regions, it doesn't feel like a selection with any longevity to it.

If he gets his cap, I'm sure he'll be delighted. Exeter Chiefs may be less so, on the other hand.

It does feel like a bit of a strange decision, opting for someone so experienced/old. Why have they ignored Dan Evans? Have they selected a more senior player because they feel the balance of the squad is too young? Who knows. It does seem odd though.

Dan Evans must be spitting blood over this and I don't blame him.

Amos seems to have been out for a very long time now.

I'd be miffed if I was Dan Evans, but hasn't he played wing a lot this season and been a little messed about by Tandy?

But Dolly has been playing well for Exeter seemingly. Not sure what his contract details are, but maybe a return to Rodney Parade is on especially with our overlords keen to bring Welsh talent home ha

eirebilly wrote:What happened to Cuthbert? He was once a very good winger (ok defensively not that strong) with excellent speed and strength.

Griff wrote:I give him stick, but he was a very good player.

I'm afraid these aren't quite true. Cuthbert had, and still has, his merits, but he's never been a good, or even competent, 'player' or 'winger'.

He's never had an all round game that makes him good enough to play Test rugby, perhaps even play professionally to a high level. We all know his weaknesses, so let's not rake over those, but despite the time and effort that has gone into helping him develop at the top level, there have only been marginal improvements in the areas where he simply isn't good enough to play for Wales.

What he does have is searing pace and acceleration, and is an excellent balanced runner. He's not strong, not in the George North way, and I actually think he's probably 'weak' for his size in terms of physical contact, but he mitigates this by being more comfortable at extreme speed than stronger, slower players, and so he can hand off a defender who- if both players weren't travelling at speed- would easily bring him down.

It's very fair to say that moving away from a 7s/open style of Rugby hasn't helped him, at least in attack. The main reason I think he's struggled is the fact that, sadly, he isn't a good enough Rugby player. The things that make him a wonderful asset at the top level don't offset his poor defence, handling, awareness, composure, basic skills etc.

I'd say the best comparison for Cuthbert is a young striker in football, 19 years old, who's just broken into the first team. He finds himself banging the goals in in his first season, acting on instinct, unburdened by doubt or a period of poor form. Once the next season comes around, and more is expected of them as they're not the youngster anymore, they not only don't develop the areas of the game aside from finishing that they're expected to, but they also stop finishing with the same consistency and confidence. Cuthbert has been on his 'difficult second album' phase for a long time: he hasn't developed nearly enough since his breakthrough for Wales. Partly, it's not his fault, he was never good enough to start with; partly I can't help feel there is/was a big attitude problem, too. Less 'crying face' on the big screen when things go wrong, and more effort away from the public eye, might have done him some good.

He should have moved a season or two to an English club like Gloucester or Exeter where they'd work him hard, and develop his game, at a more consistently gruelling intensity than the Pro12. It would also get him out of the Welsh bubble, he wouldn't get smoke blown up him as he probably has had in Cardiff, and if he'd failed to adapt, then he'd be the one having to work his way back up from the reserves. His complacency/comfort at the Blues, and by constantly being picked by Wales, has cost him massively.

To be honest, by his mid to late 20s, you'd expect his pace to be at its peak, possibly on the decline. I can't see a way back for him now. He could still adapt his game to become a decent winger, but his rugby 'brain' is so poor I don't think it's fair to expect that from him.

Cuthbert is in good form and will be a good squad addition. Not sure who people were expecting to walk in and take his place. Dan Evans I'm not sold on as he still has a terrible game for Ospreys now and then, but as we're light in the back 3 he should now be called up.

mikey_dragon wrote:Cuthbert is in good form and will be a good squad addition. Not sure who people were expecting to walk in and take his place. Dan Evans I'm not sold on as he still has a terrible game for Ospreys now and then, but as we're light in the back 3 he should now be called up.

Well, he's no Dan Fish

Dollman's tied to the Chiefs. Makes this decision all the more bizarre. Where is the incentive for the players who aren't amongst the top rung to stay in Wales and keep standards of competition up when they could earn more money playing in England? What are you saying to Dan Evans- at 28 years of age- when a 32 year old player who will be 34 by the time he completes his contract with an English club is selected ahead of you?

Whatever the merits of both players, Dan Evans has played very good club rugby over the last few seasons for the Ospreys. If not now, then clearly- as with James Davies- you're never going to select him. I just can't quite understand this, unless the selection panel see Dollman as someone who is capable of raising the standards in this squad to a degree Dan Evans couldn't, or that they see Dollman as someone who they expect to be in contention for the 2019 RWC (not going to happen).

Strange decision. You're alienating your Welsh-based fringe players and Exeter Chiefs with this call up.

http://sport.bt.com/rugby-union/exeter-backs-campagnaro-dollman-and-woodburn-sign-new-deals-S11364159952506

miaow wrote:What are you saying to Dan Evans- at 28 years of age- when a 32 year old player who will be 34 by the time he completes his contract with an English club is selected ahead of you?

Youre 28. Youve only ever earned 2 joke caps an age ago. We dont think youre good enough now for Wales, as good a Phil Dollman, and not likley to devleope into a player who will be good enough. You just arent that good which is why depsite similar shortages of resources in the past we havent called on you.

Something like that.

munkian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Cuthbert is in good form and will be a good squad addition. Not sure who people were expecting to walk in and take his place. Dan Evans I'm not sold on as he still has a terrible game for Ospreys now and then, but as we're light in the back 3 he should now be called up.

Well, he's no Dan Fish

Don't rate that guy either.

Gooseberry wrote:

miaow wrote:What are you saying to Dan Evans- at 28 years of age- when a 32 year old player who will be 34 by the time he completes his contract with an English club is selected ahead of you?

Youre 28. Youve only ever earned 2 joke caps an age ago. We dont think youre good enough now for Wales, as good a Phil Dollman, and not likley to devleope into a player who will be good enough. You just arent that good which is why depsite similar shortages of resources in the past we havent called on you.

Something like that.

Precisely, so where is the incentive for lots of 'Dan Evans' type players to not up and leave Wales for more money elsewhere? There are benefits of playing in Wales, of course, and surely one of those benefits should be the slim chance of adding to or gaining a few Welsh caps, at least giving you a slender edge over players who aren't playing in Wales?

We're not talking about Leigh Halfpenny or Liam Williams here, this is about a level of player that really isn't going to challenge for the starting 23, probably not the Welsh squad, either. But when 12 of the first choice squad are unavailable, and a number of others are injured, you'd think that it's a good opportunity to turn 2 caps into 3 or 4, and that would- I'm sure- mean the world to any player.

This genuinely has worrying ramifications for Gatland's law, designed so that domestic Rugby in Wales would remain strong, and allowing more control and time with players who are called up to the squad due to agreements between the regions and the WRU. Already there's a sense of duplicity to this 'Law', the way in which certain players are privileged over others, or that the 'law' is bent to keep the Welsh squad as strong as possible. That's a debate for another day, as this isn't referring to the players regularly called up, this is to those players who are just beyong the fringes of the squad.

If staying in Wales doesn't give them even a slight edge over someone who's chosen to move across to England or elsewhere- and the probable financial gains that come with it- then what is the point in staying? We're seeing the decimation of South African rugby due to players below Springbok level leave to earn a living in another country, and in a World where Wales, and your home, is only a short distance away from the monetary wealth of France or England, why wouldn't you leave if there is so little hope of ever playing for Wales? If the monetary reward is there- and it won't be for every player, of course- then why wouldn't you play outside Wales?

Stefan Evans cleared - not an illegal tackle.

Winzer wrote:Stefan Evans cleared - not an illegal tackle.

Apparently it didn't meet the red card threshold because of Lee's involvement in the tackle

Excellent news. To be honest I still think it was a red card, but I think 40+ minutes in a semi final was punishment enough.

miaow wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

miaow wrote:What are you saying to Dan Evans- at 28 years of age- when a 32 year old player who will be 34 by the time he completes his contract with an English club is selected ahead of you?

Youre 28. Youve only ever earned 2 joke caps an age ago. We dont think youre good enough now for Wales, as good a Phil Dollman, and not likley to devleope into a player who will be good enough. You just arent that good which is why depsite similar shortages of resources in the past we havent called on you.

Something like that.

Precisely, so where is the incentive for lots of 'Dan Evans' type players to not up and leave Wales for more money elsewhere? There are benefits of playing in Wales, of course, and surely one of those benefits should be the slim chance of adding to or gaining a few Welsh caps, at least giving you a slender edge over players who aren't playing in Wales?

We're not talking about Leigh Halfpenny or Liam Williams here, this is about a level of player that really isn't going to challenge for the starting 23, probably not the Welsh squad, either. But when 12 of the first choice squad are unavailable, and a number of others are injured, you'd think that it's a good opportunity to turn 2 caps into 3 or 4, and that would- I'm sure- mean the world to any player.

This genuinely has worrying ramifications for Gatland's law, designed so that domestic Rugby in Wales would remain strong, and allowing more control and time with players who are called up to the squad due to agreements between the regions and the WRU. Already there's a sense of duplicity to this 'Law', the way in which certain players are privileged over others, or that the 'law' is bent to keep the Welsh squad as strong as possible. That's a debate for another day, as this isn't referring to the players regularly called up, this is to those players who are just beyong the fringes of the squad.

If staying in Wales doesn't give them even a slight edge over someone who's chosen to move across to England or elsewhere- and the probable financial gains that come with it- then what is the point in staying? We're seeing the decimation of South African rugby due to players below Springbok level leave to earn a living in another country, and in a World where Wales, and your home, is only a short distance away from the monetary wealth of France or England, why wouldn't you leave if there is so little hope of ever playing for Wales? If the monetary reward is there- and it won't be for every player, of course- then why wouldn't you play outside Wales?

If hanging on to journeymen whove never and will never amounted to much more than useful club squad players is the biggest problem welsh rugby faces is that such a bad thing? Are talking 4th of 5th choice fullback?

One of the big criticisms that the Jeff and T14 have faced is that they are stuffed full of veterans who although nationaly qualified have no real hope of selection on merit and foriegners of a similar level who are desperate to earn enough to live on.
If you want the Pro12 sides to be like fine, but they still wont be strong enough to compete in the HEC.
The other argument would be that it encourages more kids through if those pushing 30 run off to get a pension fund. Not only in terms of getting games but showing theres a chance to earn a decent living.

In the grand scheme of things I dont see not selecting a player they dont deem good enough to be that big a deal.

Meanwhile England are just picking names out of a hat to fill their squad for the Barbarians. These summer tours in Lions years are BS (unless youre Scotland) and almost a waste of time. The Japan fiasco showed that picking promising kids isnt much use either...they almost all ended up on the scrap heap and are now fast on their way to being the next Dan Evans. Sometimes its not unreasonable to pick the player you feel best able to do the job you are employing them for.

I was a bit surprised, the pundits (Nugget, Jiffy) and even Wayne Pivac were accepting it should be a red. But the end result is probably fair - they had to manage without him in the game but no further ban.

miaow wrote:Excellent news. To be honest I still think it was a red card, but I think 40+ minutes in a semi final was punishment enough.

I agree, it was a red to the letter of the law, but probably not a deliberate act, more an accidental consequence of Lee joining the tackle. Evans could have done a little more to help the landing, but it's hard in the spur of the moment

A red shouldn't always mean a ban on top.

It's not the biggest problem, by any stretch. But, add up lots of small problems, and they become big. I wouldn't call these journeymen, either. This is hypothetical for Wales, in a way, but as we've seen in South Africa, when lots of players who aren't in contention for the national team leave, the level of domestic rugby drops massively, and- even if you select players who are playing abroad- that has a knock on effect on the national team. The worry isn't so much 28, or 32, year old players leaving, it's the 23 and 24 year olds who see how they could earn X more money in the next 4 years playing abroad, than if they stayed in Wales, where the likelihood of them getting a cap is no greater than if they left.

This has, and is, happening. Plenty of players are and have left to go to mid table English clubs, because they're not far from Wales, they're presumably offering more money, and it's a chance to live in a different culture for a while. The player depth in Wales is so poor that even if you take away 2-3 players from each region- so 8-10 overall- who fit this bracket they become a lot less competitive overnight.

I don't think Wales is in any danger of being inundated with veterans, quite the opposite. If anything, we lose out when our experienced players leave the country. Since the scrum laws changed in 2013, Adam Jones's stock as a player fell dramatically. The Blues gave him a season, but he wasn't very effective, and the set up in that region is/was poor anyway. The only option for Adam, then, was to either take a massive paycut to stay in Wales- to reflect the fact he was no longer worth his weight in gold due to less effective scrummaging, and that he was no longer a marquee signing- or he would have to move to a club where he could command a salary similar to the one he had been on in the last few seasons in Wales.

Now, Harlequins are wealthy enough that Adam Jones can be their, what, 3rd choice tighthead and still earn more than he would in any Welsh region as the 2nd or even 1st choice. For the sake of argument, that's fine, it's the way of the world- no region offered him a better contract, so he goes to Harlequins. He's probably starting fewer games than he might have hoped to, but he's compensated financially, and living in London. But the gain for Harlequins is that he is coaching Sinkler in a way that is absolutely invaluable to that player's development.

This is where Wales has lost something. The 2005 Grand Slam generation looked abroad towards the end of their careers, and whilst some like Gethin Jenkins and Stephen Jones returned, some like Adam and Mike Phillips and Ryan Jones and Dwayne Peel left, and with them the chance to pass on their knowledge to their Welsh understudies at club level, as well as raise the overall standards of the regions to make them as competitive as possible.

I know that we're talking about something different when talking about journeymen, but largely, I disagree about the idea that getting rid of older players can only benefit those coming through. In any case, it's the younger-but-not-too-young players like Steve Shingler, Owen Williams, Jonathan Evans, and Adam Hughes who have left in recent years, all of whom are or were decent or even good Pro12 players. I wouldn't call them journeymen, they're the next rung down from the second choice players like Gareth Davies or Rhys Patchell, and as such would be hoping/expecting to be in with a chance of a cap on a pseudo-development tour, as is the case now.

Bringing this back to the topic in hand, Dan Evans has been consistently good since he went to the Dragons a number of years ago, and continued that form for the Ospreys. He's had his caps, fine, 8 years ago- aged 20. But then why would he stay and improve the Ospreys if he could earn more abroad? Yes, there are the benefits of being at home, being settled etc., but in such a short career, if the financial incentive of leaving offsets the comfort of what you know, then why wouldn't you be tempted to do so?

The danger for Welsh rugby is that we see players around 23 or 24 who see this happening to the likes of Dan Evans or Ashley Beck and wonder whether it's really worth staying in Wales when- if you move to England- the chances of being selected by Wales in the event of a development tour or a few injuries in your position don't seem to be an issue when Dollman gets selected over Dan Evans? When that happens in a country where player depth, and quality, is already stretched, the bottom drops out of the domestic game.

I can see the merits of selecting Dollman over Evans if they think he is markedly better, even if just for this tour alone. I just think it sends out some bad signals regarding whether to stay in Wales or not for domestic players- I don't think Dollman, even if he starts (which might not happen!?), will add that much more than Dan Evans could have.

I do take the point that Dollman is hardly a world class player himself, Im just assuming that the selection was made becuase the coaches feel he has more to offer for this tour...we could all have opinions on that, but its the motivation thats important.

Im also in agreement that losing the likes of Owen Williams abroad is problematic, especially when hes struggled to establish himslef ahead of Burns and is now at a rubbish club...replacing a Welshman who's going home.
I just dont think that not picking an average 28 year old is relevant to that. Indeed Evans hasnt been getting selected but also hasnt chosen to leave Wales to get paid more elsewhere. Williams was flirting with the squad but left anyway, and has continued to turn down the improved chances of getting capped in favour of staying in England ...is not capping him cutting of the nose? But then short of cheating and picking 100 players for every game Im not sure how Wales are suppossed to hang on to everyone by capping everyone?

Infact I dont think the selection of the 4th-5th choice fullback for a BS tour is that big a deal fullstop(.)

I completely agree to be honest, as I said it's mainly hypothetical, but it's just another annoying inconsistency in Welsh Rugby regarding domenstic selection policy, and one that- eventually- could have damaging ramifications. But yeah, that's hypothetical. Rhun Williams looks a very good prospect, and I don't doubt that he'll be pushing our current 15s close by the time the 2015 RWC comes round.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Winzer wrote:Stefan Evans cleared - not an illegal tackle.

Apparently it didn't meet the red card threshold because of Lee's involvement in the tackle

Red Card was incorrect call then.... Great to have him back involved for this tour, assuming he gets through the Pro12 final unscathed. He's a big player for Scarlets and right now Evans, Williams and McNicholl is perhaps the best back 3 in the league.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Winzer wrote:Stefan Evans cleared - not an illegal tackle.

Apparently it didn't meet the red card threshold because of Lee's involvement in the tackle

I do not understand that. Does it mean that a challenge is not illegal if two people are involved in making the tackle?

LondonTiger wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Winzer wrote:Stefan Evans cleared - not an illegal tackle.

Apparently it didn't meet the red card threshold because of Lee's involvement in the tackle

I do not understand that. Does it mean that a challenge is not illegal if two people are involved in making the tackle?

Still illegal, but not at the red card threshold for either player I suspect. Possibly yellows for both was the correct call. Either that or there was some good lawyering going on in the hearing

The way life goes, Stef Evans will now throw the intercepted pass that wins the final for Munster.

miaow wrote:

eirebilly wrote:What happened to Cuthbert? He was once a very good winger (ok defensively not that strong) with excellent speed and strength.

Griff wrote:I give him stick, but he was a very good player.

I'm afraid these aren't quite true. Cuthbert had, and still has, his merits, but he's never been a good, or even competent, 'player' or 'winger'.

He's never had an all round game that makes him good enough to play Test rugby, perhaps even play professionally to a high level. We all know his weaknesses, so let's not rake over those, but despite the time and effort that has gone into helping him develop at the top level, there have only been marginal improvements in the areas where he simply isn't good enough to play for Wales.

What he does have is searing pace and acceleration, and is an excellent balanced runner. He's not strong, not in the George North way, and I actually think he's probably 'weak' for his size in terms of physical contact, but he mitigates this by being more comfortable at extreme speed than stronger, slower players, and so he can hand off a defender who- if both players weren't travelling at speed- would easily bring him down.

It's very fair to say that moving away from a 7s/open style of Rugby hasn't helped him, at least in attack. The main reason I think he's struggled is the fact that, sadly, he isn't a good enough Rugby player. The things that make him a wonderful asset at the top level don't offset his poor defence, handling, awareness, composure, basic skills etc.

I'd say the best comparison for Cuthbert is a young striker in football, 19 years old, who's just broken into the first team. He finds himself banging the goals in in his first season, acting on instinct, unburdened by doubt or a period of poor form. Once the next season comes around, and more is expected of them as they're not the youngster anymore, they not only don't develop the areas of the game aside from finishing that they're expected to, but they also stop finishing with the same consistency and confidence. Cuthbert has been on his 'difficult second album' phase for a long time: he hasn't developed nearly enough since his breakthrough for Wales. Partly, it's not his fault, he was never good enough to start with; partly I can't help feel there is/was a big attitude problem, too. Less 'crying face' on the big screen when things go wrong, and more effort away from the public eye, might have done him some good.

He should have moved a season or two to an English club like Gloucester or Exeter where they'd work him hard, and develop his game, at a more consistently gruelling intensity than the Pro12. It would also get him out of the Welsh bubble, he wouldn't get smoke blown up him as he probably has had in Cardiff, and if he'd failed to adapt, then he'd be the one having to work his way back up from the reserves. His complacency/comfort at the Blues, and by constantly being picked by Wales, has cost him massively.

To be honest, by his mid to late 20s, you'd expect his pace to be at its peak, possibly on the decline. I can't see a way back for him now. He could still adapt his game to become a decent winger, but his rugby 'brain' is so poor I don't think it's fair to expect that from him.

Nice appreciation of a Test British Lion.

Straight from the comments section of a Wales Online article.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Winzer wrote:Stefan Evans cleared - not an illegal tackle.

Apparently it didn't meet the red card threshold because of Lee's involvement in the tackle

I do not understand that. Does it mean that a challenge is not illegal if two people are involved in making the tackle?

Still illegal, but not at the red card threshold for either player I suspect. Possibly yellows for both was the correct call. Either that or there was some good lawyering going on in the hearing

The Scotish appeal in the Ais (?) was cited as a precident for this when the ban was overturned.

PhilBB wrote:Nice appreciation of a Test British Lion.

Straight from the comments section of a Wales Online article.

Na, that would be, "Cuthbert is dog excrement", which is pretty much true.

Also, *British & Irish.