6 Nations 2017...

In a manner typical of today's age, lets not bother playing the 6 Nations and follow the current trend of just putting it to a public vote..

Terms and Conditions:

Ireland, England and Wales to have same no of wins but England to get moe bonus points so win the six nations

Well at least 2 voters haven't read the T&Cs...

True Raven wrote:Ireland, England and Wales to have same no of wins but England to get moe bonus points so win the six nations

...thus proving that the bonus point system is ridiculous!

I can't think of the last time that- going in to the tournament- it seemed so competitive.

I know English fans think they are out and out favourites, and rightly so, yet there's been so little between Ireland, Wales, and England in the last 5-6 years, as well as the fact that they play both of those teams away from home, I don't think they're as good as the hype train would have you believe. They go in as favourites, but the wobbles they showed against Wales and France last year should be enough of an indication that they can be seriously tested by flawed and incomplete teams.

With that in mind, the rest of the Six Nations (bar Wales) has improved significantly. Ireland are the most obvious threat, and go into the tournament as something of an unfair dark horse behind England. It's feasible they could be playing England on the last weeked with both teams going for the Grand Slam. I can't really split these two. England have the better and bigger pack and team generally, but Ireland play smarter rugby, which does mean it's harder to maintain consistency of performance against a gameplan which is based primarily on forward aggression.

Scotland have been threatening to break out for a while, but haven't had the results against Wales, England, and Ireland that would reflect this. It's all about the pack for Scotland. If they get a solid scrum and breakdown operation, their backs are in theory as capable as any other team.

Italy have Connor O'Shea as Head Coach. They beat South Africa in the Autumn. They're not going to be the 50+ point pushovers they have intermittently been in recent years. They're the weakest team, but even then- particularly at home- it might be a return to the bearpit that it used to be going to the Flaminio under Mallet. With bonus points all important this year, is it possible a team could underestimate them, and end up embarrassed?

Then the French, the most underperforming nation in the whole championship. The Autumn was again promising, and there were hints last 6Ns of a slowly improving juggernaut, but the performance against Australia could prove to be a marker. If they can maintain that sort of desire and belief- which is completely up in there air- they will be far more of a threat, particularly in attack, than they have been for years. Like Scotland, I don't think they have quite managed the formula to win the competition outright, but there is at least one "shock" result in them (i.e. beating one of England, Wales, or Ireland) which will make the tournament interesting.

Wales are in theory the most pitiful team, woefully out of form, and in something of a coaching limbo. They do have the pedigree though, and didn't perform dreadfully in last year's 6Ns, even if it was probably an opportunity lost as others were rebuilding. They did enough to win the game away in Ireland, and showed enough at the end in Twickenham to think- had they turned up in the first 55 minutes- they could have won there too. They also went down and performed fairly well all things considered against the All Blacks, but what does that mean for the Six Nations after a horrible Autumn? Their first two games are fortunate: Italy away is definitely more than just a banana skin, but having England at home the week after- with a week off after that- is about as good as it gets in terms of timing. If they win those, then they would likely become favourites to win it. Equally, as it stands, if it goes as bad as it did at the start of the Autumn, they could be looking at a wooden spoon.

In short, when was the last time the worst team in the tournament was as strong as this? That's either Italy, France, or even Wales, depending on how you want to look at it. And with no obvious frontrunner considering the form and potential of all the team, it surely makes a Grand Slam incredibly unlikely, which in turn makes the new scoring system experiment all the more interesting.

miaow wrote:Ireland are the most obvious threat, and go into the tournament as something of an unfair dark horse behind England. It's feasible they could be playing England on the last weekend with both teams going for the Grand Slam.

Not sure they are a dark horse; 5/2 some times in this tourney could be a fav price - England are evens - big odds on the rest - which counters those odds

most see this as a two horse race with one fav but not a given (considering that is England and at home v the rival) makes the odds n this case (although worked out on market prices)

pretty close to a true reflection imo - and market forces are normally what the public think rather than reality or not. punters change the odds closer to the way they feel.

not many people think anyone but those two will win.

I do however still think its the most high quality 6 nations... in... maybe ever?

let's hope the weather is decent...

As Ireland showed against New Zealand on their day they can beat anyone now. France as we all know can be absolute pants and then pull one out of the bag. Scotland and Italy are competitive but I can't see them beating one of the top teams. Wales played a very limited game plan relying on penalties from collapsed scrums and Halfpenny to kick penalties - now the scrum rules have changed they are struggling. So England and Ireland clear favourites, with injuries to key players possibly being the deciding factor.

nlpnlp wrote:As Ireland showed against New Zealand on their day they can beat anyone now.  France as we all know can be absolute pants and then pull one out of the bag.  Scotland and Italy are competitive but I can't see them beating one of the top teams.  Wales played a very limited game plan relying on penalties from collapsed scrums and Halfpenny to kick penalties - now the scrum rules have changed they are struggling.  So England and Ireland clear favourites, with injuries to key players possibly being the deciding factor.

I know I shouldn't, but I find this a bit of a sh*tty comment! Firstly, when you say 'played' past tense what period are you talking about? One game? A season? The Gatland era? Secondly, when you say 'rely on penalties' do you mean as a way of getting points in a game? Are you saying we don't tend to score tries in the 6 nations and only go for scrum penalties? That's pretty laughable. Yes, when Adam Jones was a good scrummager we would often opt for a scrum in a promising position. Why not use a good weapon? The English have used scrum domination to their benefit in the past and been praised for it. But you make it sound like we would deliberately knock on ourselves to give a chance of a scrum penalty! Ridiculous.

Just a quick search on wiki tells you:

2016 Wales scored the most tries with 17.
2015 we were 2nd with 13.
2014 we were 3rd with 11.
2013 we were 1st with 9.
2012 we were 2nd with 10.

So in the last 5 years we were mainly 1st or 2nd top try scorers and once were 3rd. I'd say we relied on try scoring too  

Interstingly, in the same period ALL other nations have been either bottom or joint bottom worst try scorers while Wales have never been bottom. Did not know that.

Scotland issue remains the same s ever - no depth to the squad. Lose a couple of key players ( we have already lost one) and we go from hopeful to hopeless.

TJ wrote:Scotland issue remains the same s ever - no depth to the squad.  Lose a couple of key players ( we have already lost one) and we go from hopeful to hopeless.

I still think you're in a much better place now than previously. I'd still be hopeful if I was a Scot, rather than hopeless. Stay positive

Cant see anyone but England on this one.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Cant see anyone but England on this one.

I think most England fans are a bit wary of what Ireland are gonna do. I am not betting on England even if this is the best England since 2003.

The NH most be getting more respect at present (in the SH)

That England 2003 side had plenty of slip ups along the road.

mystiroakey wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:Cant see anyone but England on this one.

I think most England fans are a bit wary of what Ireland are gonna do. I am not betting on England even if this is the best England since 2003.

The NH most be getting more respect at present (in the SH)

 Yes mystir the NH sides are definitely pulling a lot of respect, and its not only because England are clearly number 2 in the World but generally the Southern Hemisphere sides have been somewhat ordinary over the past twelve months.

I don't like the thoughts of playing England.

Or Wales

Or France

..... or Scotland.

Italy...................... thank God for Italy.

I just don't see 'form' continuing for a few and I can see 'form' rise for others.  Reality bites and these early months can throw a spanner in many well laid plans.  Any side/or fans thereof that say they are confident all the cards will fall into place for their boys - well, good luck to them.  I see 'Upsets' on the horizon.

I cant wait for Ireland v England. Ireland will win. No doubt about it.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I cant wait for Ireland v England. Ireland will win. No doubt about it.

Please post the betting slip with your life savings on Ireland

Sure no problem Scott.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I cant wait for Ireland v England. Ireland will win. No doubt about it.

Well guns, last year nobody (well me any way) ever thought that England would beet Ireland let alone win the Grand Slam.

This year i am more afraid of France rather than Ireland.

What with the Injuries to Mako and Billy V, Robshaw being out if not all of the 6ns, most of it. France in my opinion will be a tough nut to crack.


But i guess we will have to wait and see.

You should be afraid of France. They were really good in their last game and French sides are doing quite well in Europe this year. One to watch.

France beat Ireland last year playing absolutely terribly.

That was a shocking game to watch.

It's be interesting to see how much France have improved and if they've improved more than Ireland.

Cyril wrote:France beat Ireland last year playing absolutely terribly.

That was a shocking game to watch.

France basically beat the sh1t out of Ireland. It was a very cynical performance from them but yes they did win and it was a terrible match. Ireland and France were both dire.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:France beat Ireland last year playing absolutely terribly.

That was a shocking game to watch.

France basically beat the sh1t out of Ireland. It was a very cynical performance from them but yes they did win and it was a terrible match. Ireland and France were both dire.

Sounds like Ireland need to toughen up. That's NZ and France who've beaten them up recently.

We cant all be as tough as you Cyril.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:We cant all be as tough as you Cyril.

Reminds me of something I was pondering over re George ford recently. He is a very un-English rugby player IMO.

It seems to me that at all age levels feeding up to the senior team England tends to cap players that are the biggest or strongest or fastest of their peers rather that selecting players that are technically or skillfully superior.

England under 20s are always the biggest team in the under 20 WC for example. Ireland players can seldom compete with England's pace and physicality reserves and as a result focus more on skill, technique and tactics and I think Ford falls into this mould more than most England players I can think of.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:France beat Ireland last year playing absolutely terribly.

That was a shocking game to watch.

France basically beat the sh1t out of Ireland. It was a very cynical performance from them but yes they did win and it was a terrible match. Ireland and France were both dire.

Sounds like Ireland need to toughen up. That's NZ and France who've beaten them up recently.

It's the two sides that always beat them up.  They're the bully boys from company B as regards Ireland.

Kinda suggests what they think they need to do to beat us though - above and beyond rugby.  For England, they just stick to the rugby.... and a Touch-variety too if you take in that famous try fest thing between England and France with no defending a few years back  

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:France beat Ireland last year playing absolutely terribly.

That was a shocking game to watch.

France basically beat the sh1t out of Ireland. It was a very cynical performance from them but yes they did win and it was a terrible match. Ireland and France were both dire.

Sounds like Ireland need to toughen up. That's NZ and France who've beaten them up recently.

It's the two sides that always beat them up.  They're the bully boys from company B as regards Ireland.

They make the company jump when they play reveille

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Reminds me of something I was pondering over re George ford recently. He is a very un-English rugby player IMO.

Apart from that age old English trait of succession, nepotism.

You do seem to have a bee in your bonnet about England today!

No 7&1/2 wrote:You do seem to have a bee in your bonnet about England today!

What are you on about I love England.

Not you guns.

Oh right

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Reminds me of something I was pondering over re George ford recently. He is a very un-English rugby player IMO.

It seems to me that at all age levels feeding up to the senior team England tends to cap players that are the biggest or strongest or fastest of their peers rather that selecting players that are technically or skillfully superior.

England under 20s are always the biggest team in the under 20 WC for example. Ireland players can seldom compete with England's pace and physicality reserves and as a result focus more on skill, technique and tactics and I think Ford falls into this mould more than most England players I can think of.

Historically that was true. Based on the last JWC I am a lot less sure (if you ignore a certain huge 10/12/wherever daddy wants to play him). We had a tiny scrum half and the pick of the centers was Joe Marchant who is very much JJ mk2. There was the odd ogre in the front row but our best forward was arguably will evans who again isnt massive by any means. The biggest player on the team was at 10...

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:Scotland issue remains the same s ever - no depth to the squad.  Lose a couple of key players ( we have already lost one) and we go from hopeful to hopeless.

I still think you're in a much better place now than previously. I'd still be hopeful if I was a Scot, rather than hopeless. Stay positive

I am hopeful and there is no doubt this is the best squad even in comparison to the other nations for a long long time - however depth is a real issue. Lose Fagerson and we are in real trouble at tighthead. Lose Jonny Gray then its a much poorer replacement. Loses Russell and we are down a huge step in Quality. Lose all three and we are stuffed

Everyone in Ireland believes we will win the GS at a canter, including myself.

Don't believe any Irishman who says otherwise, they are just being cagey or polite .... secretly we are all waiting patiently to give England a good shellacking and then have a wee snigger to ourselves how they've been duped into thinking they are favorites.....

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Reminds me of something I was pondering over re George ford recently. He is a very un-English rugby player IMO.

It seems to me that at all age levels feeding up to the senior team England tends to cap players that are the biggest or strongest or fastest of their peers rather that selecting players that are technically or skillfully superior.

England under 20s are always the biggest team in the under 20 WC for example. Ireland players can seldom compete with England's pace and physicality reserves and as a result focus more on skill, technique and tactics and I think Ford falls into this mould more than most England players I can think of.

Historically that was true. Based on the last JWC I am a lot less sure (if you ignore a certain huge 10/12/wherever daddy wants to play him). We had a tiny scrum half and the pick of the centers was Joe Marchant who is very much JJ mk2. There was the odd ogre in the front row but our best forward was arguably will evans who again isnt massive by any means. The biggest player on the team was at 10...

Maybe so but England's side did still seem a lot bigger than Ireland's. Ford does remind me more of an Irish outhalf than an English one but maybe that's because he grew up around the Ireland side.

rodders wrote:Everyone in Ireland believes we will win the GS at a canter, including myself.

Don't believe any Irishman who says otherwise, they are just being cagey or polite .... secretly we are all waiting patiently to give England a good shellacking and then have a wee snigger to ourselves how they've been duped into thinking they are favorites.....

Yes Ireland will win against England. Im convinced.

Billy V is a big loss for England. I think their game revolved a lot around him in recent years certainly in terms of getting first phase yards.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

rodders wrote:Everyone in Ireland believes we will win the GS at a canter, including myself.

Don't believe any Irishman who says otherwise, they are just being cagey or polite .... secretly we are all waiting patiently to give England a good shellacking and then have a wee snigger to ourselves how they've been duped into thinking they are favorites.....

Yes Ireland will win against England. Im convinced.

Billy V is a big loss for England. I think their game revolved a lot around him in recent years certainly in terms of getting first phase yards.

I think we could humiliate them guns. The talent Ireland have is frightening right now.

England have some good talent too but the difference is a lot of their players are weak mentally and don't like to be away from Twickenham.

4 games until you have the luxury of enjoying the win.

I also think Ireland could quite easily do it . And as an Englishman I could be as cocky(and say we will) - but I am not going to be, Ireland poses a threat.

however from Englands pov , Every game is a huge game.

but that game - christ.

it could be a GS decider and the world win record to beat the kiwis! - i suppose there is a bit of Irish influence all ready in it as well as they stopped the kiwis getting a huge win run last year! IF THEY DO IT TO TWO TEAMS TWICE - KUDOUS!


Billy V is huge for England - he seems to have that extra force to get to the try line and break lines. But we have so many other good options. its not the end of the world/

aucklandlaurie wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:Cant see anyone but England on this one.

I think most England fans are a bit wary of what Ireland are gonna do. I am not betting on England even if this is the best England since 2003.

The NH most be getting more respect at present (in the SH)

 Yes mystir the NH sides are definitely pulling a lot of respect, and its not only because England are clearly number 2 in the World but generally the Southern Hemisphere sides have been somewhat ordinary over the past twelve months.

Yep I agree - Its not just the strength of England (And Ireland), and possibly Wales. But also SA and Aus must be on there worst runs for as long as I~ can remember.

Wales will definitely contend for this title IMO. They seem to have have been written off any yet they have both England and Ireland at home. Its all set up for them to upset all the odds.

Good point. For some reason I though England had Ireland at twickers.. I still wasnt sure of a win, But now. I think I would rather take on NZ at home!!

Tough place - especially for England. Sometimes Ireland just step up a gear i only witness on those games. They become supermen.

And yeah If wales can take Ireland at home.(not sure if they could take England at present -but i am not banking on it). All to play for. But in that case I think England will rack up the most points.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Wales will definitely contend for this title IMO. They seem to have have been written off any yet they have both England and Ireland at home. Its all set up for them to upset all the odds.

i think the Welsh boys will be wrapped in cotton wool for the Lions. As long as they avoid the wooden spoon they should make up at least 50% of the test side, Gats and Howley have probably tipped a few fellas off already.

England actually have a better record against Ireland in Dublin than in London apparently though perhaps not in recent years.

2 wins in 4 games this decade.

rodders wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Wales will definitely contend for this title IMO. They seem to have have been written off any yet they have both England and Ireland at home. Its all set up for them to upset all the odds.

i think the Welsh boys will be wrapped in cotton wool for the Lions. As long as they avoid the wooden spoon they should make up at least 50% of the test side, Gats and Howley have probably tipped a few fellas off already.

I think AWJ has been told he will be Lions captain already.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:England actually have a better record against Ireland in Dublin than in London apparently though perhaps not in recent years.

Nah not in recent years - We have been battered on a couple if occasions (that no other team has battered us)