European Rugby..

First topic message reminder :

What a disappointment... I thought with BT and Sky sharing coverage of the European Rugby we'd have more coverage of the games. However, Round 1 of the Challenge Cup and only 2 are being shown on the TV, and one of them is by the French broadcaster only.

I appreciate that its big money, and that BT and Sky have put up a lot of money to cover European Rugby, but if you have games you don't want to or cant fit in your schedule, then why not let other broadcasters show them like BBC, ITV, S4C or even b!oody DAVE. Or better still, if they want to keep control put them out on your Web Sites.. But not showing any coverage at all is just damn annoying...

If this is the way they think they are investing in Rugby then they need to think again...

As well as TV coverage reducing, PRO12 teams European Cup home attendances make for disappointing reading.

2013/14 total attendances - 411,583 - H Cup/Challenge
2014/15 total attendances - 394,902 - Champions Cup/Challenge
2015/16 total attendances - 320,395 - Champions Cup/Challenge

That's a 91k drop over two years. 40k of that is Munster's alone. 14.5k to Cardiff, and Ulster 9.5, Leinster 8k, and Connacht 7.5k are the other big drops over 2 years.
Leinster had a bumper attendance in 2014/15 - 118k, but dropped last year.

Only one club has gained attendance year on year - up 4,500.
Glasgow.

Pot Hale wrote:As well as TV coverage reducing, PRO12 teams European Cup home attendances make for disappointing reading.

2013/14 total attendances - 411,583 - H Cup/Challenge
2014/15 total attendances - 394,902 - Champions Cup/Challenge
2015/16 total attendances - 320,395 - Champions Cup/Challenge

That's a 91k drop over two years. 40k of that is Munster's alone. 14.5k to Cardiff, and Ulster 9.5, Leinster 8k, and Connacht 7.5k are the other big drops over 2 years.
Leinster had a bumper attendance in 2014/15 - 118k, but dropped last year.

Only one club has gained attendance year on year - up 4,500.
Glasgow.

Could that be anything to do with less Pro12 teams playing in the Champions Cup and more in the challenge cup?

LordDowlais wrote:The whole competition is a farce, especially the second tier. We have been led down the garden path on this one, European club ruby is dying on it's feet at the moment.

The whole competition has been ruined by greedy money men.

By "European club rugby" I assume you mean the Welsh Regions?

Pot Hale wrote:As well as TV coverage reducing, PRO12 teams European Cup home attendances make for disappointing reading.

2013/14 total attendances - 411,583 - H Cup/Challenge
2014/15 total attendances - 394,902 - Champions Cup/Challenge
2015/16 total attendances - 320,395 - Champions Cup/Challenge

That's a 91k drop over two years. 40k of that is Munster's alone. 14.5k to Cardiff, and Ulster 9.5, Leinster 8k, and Connacht 7.5k are the other big drops over 2 years.
Leinster had a bumper attendance in 2014/15 - 118k, but dropped last year.

Only one club has gained attendance year on year - up 4,500.
Glasgow.

Isnt that going to be affected by results though?
The Pro12 sides not progressing as well is going to cause a drop in their attendances.

Whats the solution here : European rugby has to be structured to ensure the teams with the biggest audiences have an inbuilt advantage?
Actually thats pretty much what did happen (just focused on the TV audience rather than the ground capacity)

This post from Munsterfans on Anthony Foley might explain what has happened to European rugby:

Munsterfan wrote:My mate works for Wasps and well chatted to him there. He was saying he chatted to Laurence Dallaglio today. My mate said he couldn't get over how even the english are so upset over the death. Dallaglio summed up Foley with his response. Foley wasn't just a Munster star but a real reason Europe was a success in rugby. Every team wanted an atmosphere Munster created. Every team wanted a doggedness Munster created. And everyone bought in to the Heineken as it were then because of the love Munster put in it. And the driver of the Munster train was Axel. So why wouldn't English French and further afield be upset.

Really shows the regard Axel was held in.

You will likely disagree but I think the two biggest winners since the restructure in the European competition have been Connacht and Glasgow. Two sides who have flourished since the change. They've transformed from struggling teams into Pro12 champions and they are turning heads in Europe too.

If you had told me that Glasgow would convincingly defeat Leicester 5 years ago I wouldn't have believed you but fast forward 5 years, Glasgow are a team that deserves respect. Sure Leicester aren't the Leicester of old but they are still a tough and consistent team.

Connacht and Glasgow have earnt my respect by qualifying, not by being handed a place in the top European competition on a platter but by earning it by performing well in the Pro12.

Some sides were too used to the status quo of having sides like Glasgow and Connacht doomed to always be in their shadow. That's changed now.

The plight of the Italian clubs isn't IMO solely down to the restructure of the HC. Their system in general needs re-working.

Smaller clubs like Glasgow and Connacht have shown that with a good structure it's possible to do well.

The Welsh clubs will inevitably be annoyed their representation is poor in the HC but they only have themselves to blame.

beshocked wrote:You will likely disagree but I think the two biggest winners since the restructure in the European competition have been Connacht and Glasgow. Two sides who have flourished since the change. They've transformed from struggling teams into Pro12 champions and they are turning heads in Europe too.

If you had told me that Glasgow would convincingly defeat Leicester 5 years ago I wouldn't have believed you but fast forward 5 years, Glasgow are a team that deserves respect. Sure Leicester aren't the Leicester of old but they are still a tough and consistent team.

Connacht and Glasgow have earnt my respect by qualifying, not by being handed a place in the top European competition on a platter but by earning it by performing well in the Pro12.

Some sides were too used to the status quo of having sides like Glasgow and Connacht doomed to always be in their shadow. That's changed now.

The plight of the Italian clubs isn't IMO solely down to the restructure of the HC. Their system in general needs re-working.

Smaller clubs like Glasgow and Connacht have shown that with a good structure it's possible to do well.

The Welsh clubs will inevitably be annoyed their representation is poor in the HC but they only have themselves to blame.

Isn't that partly to do with the way that BT Sport have put £25m into Scottish rugby and Connacht are now no longer an Irish development team?

I'm not sure "The Welsh clubs only have themselves to blame" when they don't appear to have anywhere near as much money as clubs such as Glasgow.

beshocked wrote:You will likely disagree but I think the two biggest winners since the restructure in the European competition have been Connacht and Glasgow. Two sides who have flourished since the change. They've transformed from struggling teams into Pro12 champions and they are turning heads in Europe too.

This has NOTHING to do with European rugby, but more to do with the unions financing them more. Nice way of trying to twist things though.

Gooseberry wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:As well as TV coverage reducing, PRO12 teams European Cup home attendances make for disappointing reading.

2013/14 total attendances - 411,583 - H Cup/Challenge
2014/15 total attendances - 394,902 - Champions Cup/Challenge
2015/16 total attendances - 320,395 - Champions Cup/Challenge

That's a 91k drop over two years. 40k of that is Munster's alone. 14.5k to Cardiff, and Ulster 9.5, Leinster 8k, and Connacht 7.5k are the other big drops over 2 years.
Leinster had a bumper attendance in 2014/15 - 118k, but dropped last year.

Only one club has gained attendance year on year - up 4,500.
Glasgow.

Isnt that going to be affected by results though?
The Pro12 sides not progressing as well is going to cause a drop in their attendances.

Whats the solution here : European rugby has to be structured to ensure the teams with the biggest audiences have an inbuilt advantage?
Actually thats pretty much what did happen (just focused on the TV audience rather than the ground capacity)

I don't see the point of reducing the number of teams involved. The new structure hasn't worked out. Along with having fewer teams in the top competition, everyone knows the results by Christmas which makes it even more irrelevant to a lot of people. Then you have clubs like Saracens winning/making quarters who have a small supporter base and despite winning a lot of stuff, don't have anyone jumping on their bandwagon!

beshocked wrote:You will likely disagree but I think the two biggest winners since the restructure in the European competition have been Connacht and Glasgow. Two sides who have flourished since the change. They've transformed from struggling teams into Pro12 champions and they are turning heads in Europe too.

If you had told me that Glasgow would convincingly defeat Leicester 5 years ago I wouldn't have believed you but fast forward 5 years, Glasgow are a team that deserves respect. Sure Leicester aren't the Leicester of old but they are still a tough and consistent team.

Connacht and Glasgow have earnt my respect by qualifying, not by being handed a place in the top European competition on a platter but by earning it by performing well in the Pro12.

Some sides were too used to the status quo of having sides like Glasgow and Connacht doomed to always be in their shadow. That's changed now.

The plight of the Italian clubs isn't IMO solely down to the restructure of the HC. Their system in general needs re-working.

Smaller clubs like Glasgow and Connacht have shown that with a good structure it's possible to do well.

The Welsh clubs will inevitably be annoyed their representation is poor in the HC but they only have themselves to blame.

Glasgow & Connacht have flourished - but that is down to both getting an injection of cash from their Unions (and the Unions investing in top coaches).

PRO12 teams can't really compete financially with the Racings, Saracens & Toulons now. It makes me laugh when I hear that Keith Earls nearly ended up in Saracens and even on an international IRFU contract, took a big hit on what Saracens offered to remain in Munster. With these clubs driving up player wages, there are no more Doug Howletts, Rocky Elsoms, Jerry Collins featuring in the PRO12 anymore.

Pot Hale wrote:As well as TV coverage reducing, PRO12 teams European Cup home attendances make for disappointing reading.

2013/14 total attendances - 411,583 - H Cup/Challenge
2014/15 total attendances - 394,902 - Champions Cup/Challenge
2015/16 total attendances - 320,395 - Champions Cup/Challenge

That's a 91k drop over two years. 40k of that is Munster's alone. 14.5k to Cardiff, and Ulster 9.5, Leinster 8k, and Connacht 7.5k are the other big drops over 2 years.
Leinster had a bumper attendance in 2014/15 - 118k, but dropped last year.

Only one club has gained attendance year on year - up 4,500.
Glasgow.

This would seem to align with the success, or in this the case, the lack of success of the Pro12 teams in Europe. If your team is not performing/achieving, less supporters will turn up. I don't think the drop in crowds is anything to do with the competition, more the poor showings of the Pro12 sides mentioned.

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:You will likely disagree but I think the two biggest winners since the restructure in the European competition have been Connacht and Glasgow. Two sides who have flourished since the change. They've transformed from struggling teams into Pro12 champions and they are turning heads in Europe too.

If you had told me that Glasgow would convincingly defeat Leicester 5 years ago I wouldn't have believed you but fast forward 5 years, Glasgow are a team that deserves respect. Sure Leicester aren't the Leicester of old but they are still a tough and consistent team.

Connacht and Glasgow have earnt my respect by qualifying, not by being handed a place in the top European competition on a platter but by earning it by performing well in the Pro12.

Some sides were too used to the status quo of having sides like Glasgow and Connacht doomed to always be in their shadow. That's changed now.

The plight of the Italian clubs isn't IMO solely down to the restructure of the HC. Their system in general needs re-working.

Smaller clubs like Glasgow and Connacht have shown that with a good structure it's possible to do well.

The Welsh clubs will inevitably be annoyed their representation is poor in the HC but they only have themselves to blame.

Glasgow & Connacht have flourished - but that is down to both getting an injection of cash from their Unions (and the Unions investing in top coaches).

PRO12 teams can't really compete financially with the Racings, Saracens & Toulons now. It makes me laugh when I hear that Keith Earls nearly ended up in Saracens and even on an international IRFU contract, took a big hit on what Saracens offered to remain in Munster. With these clubs driving up player wages, there are no more Doug Howletts, Rocky Elsoms, Jerry Collins featuring in the PRO12 anymore.

Even with an injection in cash there's still less than many sides.

Why does it make you laugh? Earls used Saracens to drive up his own wage. It's an effective ploy.

Saracens do not have as high a salary cap as Toulon or Racing even if you believe Saracens are breaking the cap.

The structure of Toulon/Racing is very different to Saracens - Toulon in particular believe in shelling out for ageing stars, haven't produced any decent players of their own. Only needed to look at the ages of the players in the Sarries and Toulon packs.

Rugbyfan100 are you seriously telling me Glasgow are rich and the Welsh regions are poor?

£6.5 million is not the same as 10 million Euros, especially as the £ keeps dropping in value.

beshocked wrote:

Saracens do not have as high a salary cap as Toulon or Racing

Only just. (largely skewed by the exchange rate fluctuations)

Top 14 salary cap : £8.9m
Aviva Premiership salary cap: £7m plus 2 marquee players

Rugbyfan100 are you seriously telling me Glasgow are rich and the Welsh regions are poor?

I didn't really say that! I just said Glasgow have more £ to spend on their squad than the Welsh teams! They have a huge number of internationals and many of the Scottish squad. Good on them I say! But I'm not sure why you said "The Welsh only have themselves to blame" when they are not in control of their funding streams and which league competition they play in and have a low salary cap . Your statement was hugely unfair in my opinion.

Also you are not very clued up on Toulon if you think they only shell out on ageing stars.

beshocked wrote:Rugbyfan100 are you seriously telling me Glasgow are rich and the Welsh regions are poor?

That is correct. There are only about 1 or 2 union controlled clubs in the Pro12 who could claim to earn what they spend, the rest get massively subsidised by their unions.

beshocked wrote:

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:You will likely disagree but I think the two biggest winners since the restructure in the European competition have been Connacht and Glasgow. Two sides who have flourished since the change. They've transformed from struggling teams into Pro12 champions and they are turning heads in Europe too.

If you had told me that Glasgow would convincingly defeat Leicester 5 years ago I wouldn't have believed you but fast forward 5 years, Glasgow are a team that deserves respect. Sure Leicester aren't the Leicester of old but they are still a tough and consistent team.

Connacht and Glasgow have earnt my respect by qualifying, not by being handed a place in the top European competition on a platter but by earning it by performing well in the Pro12.

Some sides were too used to the status quo of having sides like Glasgow and Connacht doomed to always be in their shadow. That's changed now.

The plight of the Italian clubs isn't IMO solely down to the restructure of the HC. Their system in general needs re-working.

Smaller clubs like Glasgow and Connacht have shown that with a good structure it's possible to do well.

The Welsh clubs will inevitably be annoyed their representation is poor in the HC but they only have themselves to blame.

Glasgow & Connacht have flourished - but that is down to both getting an injection of cash from their Unions (and the Unions investing in top coaches).

PRO12 teams can't really compete financially with the Racings, Saracens & Toulons now. It makes me laugh when I hear that Keith Earls nearly ended up in Saracens and even on an international IRFU contract, took a big hit on what Saracens offered to remain in Munster. With these clubs driving up player wages, there are no more Doug Howletts, Rocky Elsoms, Jerry Collins featuring in the PRO12 anymore.

Even with an injection in cash there's still less than many sides.

Why does it make you laugh? Earls used Saracens to drive up his own wage. It's an effective ploy.

Saracens do not have as high a salary cap as Toulon or Racing even if you believe Saracens are breaking the cap.

The structure of Toulon/Racing is very different to Saracens - Toulon in particular believe in shelling out for ageing stars, haven't produced any decent players of their own. Only needed to look at the ages of the players in the Sarries and Toulon packs.

Rugbyfan100 are you seriously telling me Glasgow are rich and the Welsh regions are poor?

£6.5 million is not the same as 10 million Euros, especially as the £ keeps dropping in value.

Ah dear god, give me a break. Keith Earls used Saracens to drive up his wage Far more likely that Saracens tried to take a key player from Munster so that Munster would be less competitive (both on the field and attracting foreign players).

I don't really care about the English salary cap (other than to think that some English and French clubs are overspending and making it uncompetitive and its nothing but a race to the bottom for club rugby). Ronan O'Gara said that Racing though of putting a package together for him and they reckoned they couldn't afford him.

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Rugbyfan100 are you seriously telling me Glasgow are rich and the Welsh regions are poor?

That is correct. There are only about 1 or 2 union controlled clubs in the Pro12 who could claim to earn what they spend, the rest get massively subsidised by their unions.

Which clubs?

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:You will likely disagree but I think the two biggest winners since the restructure in the European competition have been Connacht and Glasgow. Two sides who have flourished since the change. They've transformed from struggling teams into Pro12 champions and they are turning heads in Europe too.

This has NOTHING to do with European rugby, but more to do with the unions financing them more. Nice way of trying to twist things though.

Beshocked if you come out with statements like this then you at least need to be able to back it up with something...anything! I think Sin is on the money regarding the upturn in fortunes ( )for Glasgow and Connacht - and it's not recent as it started about 6 years ago.

Rugbyfan100

Toulon do have a lot of old players in their starting XV.

Sin e why on earth would Saracens target Munster to specifically weaken Munster? It's much more likely to be Earls getting attention from Saracens and using that to bump up his wages.

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:You will likely disagree but I think the two biggest winners since the restructure in the European competition have been Connacht and Glasgow. Two sides who have flourished since the change. They've transformed from struggling teams into Pro12 champions and they are turning heads in Europe too.

If you had told me that Glasgow would convincingly defeat Leicester 5 years ago I wouldn't have believed you but fast forward 5 years, Glasgow are a team that deserves respect. Sure Leicester aren't the Leicester of old but they are still a tough and consistent team.

Connacht and Glasgow have earnt my respect by qualifying, not by being handed a place in the top European competition on a platter but by earning it by performing well in the Pro12.

Some sides were too used to the status quo of having sides like Glasgow and Connacht doomed to always be in their shadow. That's changed now.

The plight of the Italian clubs isn't IMO solely down to the restructure of the HC. Their system in general needs re-working.

Smaller clubs like Glasgow and Connacht have shown that with a good structure it's possible to do well.

The Welsh clubs will inevitably be annoyed their representation is poor in the HC but they only have themselves to blame.

Glasgow & Connacht have flourished - but that is down to both getting an injection of cash from their Unions (and the Unions investing in top coaches).

PRO12 teams can't really compete financially with the Racings, Saracens & Toulons now. It makes me laugh when I hear that Keith Earls nearly ended up in Saracens and even on an international IRFU contract, took a big hit on what Saracens offered to remain in Munster. With these clubs driving up player wages, there are no more Doug Howletts, Rocky Elsoms, Jerry Collins featuring in the PRO12 anymore.

Even with an injection in cash there's still less than many sides.

Why does it make you laugh? Earls used Saracens to drive up his own wage. It's an effective ploy.

Saracens do not have as high a salary cap as Toulon or Racing even if you believe Saracens are breaking the cap.

The structure of Toulon/Racing is very different to Saracens - Toulon in particular believe in shelling out for ageing stars, haven't produced any decent players of their own. Only needed to look at the ages of the players in the Sarries and Toulon packs.

Rugbyfan100 are you seriously telling me Glasgow are rich and the Welsh regions are poor?

£6.5 million is not the same as 10 million Euros, especially as the £ keeps dropping in value.

Ah dear god, give me a break. Keith Earls used Saracens to drive up his wage Far more likely that Saracens tried to take a key player from Munster so that Munster would be less competitive (both on the field and attracting foreign players).

I doubt Sarries gave a toss about the effect on Munster. They wanted Earles because at the time Strettle was heading to France and someone who could play wing and 13 would have been a handy addition. The threat of losing him to Sarries may have helped the negotiating position of Keith's agent. There has been more than one foreign international who's had the old tour of a big team in the premiership's facilities only to sign a long term contract soon after. Adam Ashley-Cooper did it to Bath and Teddy Thomas to Tigers.

Interesting:

The French pay-TV audience for the Champions Cup is said to have dropped from an average of 600,000 subscribers watching the Heineken Cup on Canal Plus to a peak of 250,000 subscribers on BeIN Sports for Saturday afternoon games.

You see, greed doesn't always work. Losing more than half your viewers will not attract good sponsorship. It seems the French network deal went from €14.5m per season for HCup to €20m per season for Champs Cup.

Anyway, if the French are only getting 20m per season for their tv rights, the Champs Cup must be seriously losing a lot of money with the PRL propping it up as the PRO12 have their guarantee of 20m. The Nigels & Co. sure do underestimate the Union Blazers! I wonder who is laughing now!

Interesting analysis of attendances of semis at Champs Cup.  

https://theblitzdefence.wordpress.com/2016/04/24/european-rugby-semis-how-bad-were-the-attendances/

Dominic McKay, chief operating officer of Scottish Rugby, joins Sportsound presenter Geoff Webster to discuss a range of commercial matters affecting the sport in Scotland, including the signing of Stuart Hogg on an extended deal at Glasgow Warriors.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/scotland/37680482

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Rugbyfan100 are you seriously telling me Glasgow are rich and the Welsh regions are poor?

That is correct. There are only about 1 or 2 union controlled clubs in the Pro12 who could claim to earn what they spend, the rest get massively subsidised by their unions.

Which clubs?

Of them all I would say Ulster and Leinster are the only two union controlled clubs that could fund themselves to the same level as a privately owned model.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Rugbyfan100 are you seriously telling me Glasgow are rich and the Welsh regions are poor?

That is correct. There are only about 1 or 2 union controlled clubs in the Pro12 who could claim to earn what they spend, the rest get massively subsidised by their unions.

Which clubs?

Of them all I would say Ulster and Leinster are the only two union controlled clubs that could fund themselves to the same level as a privately owned model.

And what of the privately owned clubs that can't really afford to fund themselves? It isn't as though the Sarries or the Toulons of Europe have gained their success by being self-sustaining. These clubs have been massively subsidised by their owners. These owners might be happy to write off the debt owed to them but, as a business model, they would have to be deemed a failure in business terms if they fail to recoup their losses.

Munchkin wrote:And what of the privately owned clubs that can't really afford to fund themselves? It isn't as though the Sarries or the Toulons of Europe have gained their success by being self-sustaining. These clubs have been massively subsidised by their owners. These owners might be happy to write off the debt owed to them but, as a business model, they would have to be deemed a failure in business terms if they fail to recoup their losses.

FFS Munchkin. Everything is an argument with you isn't it ?

You are everything that is wrong with this forum.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:And what of the privately owned clubs that can't really afford to fund themselves? It isn't as though the Sarries or the Toulons of Europe have gained their success by being self-sustaining. These clubs have been massively subsidised by their owners. These owners might be happy to write off the debt owed to them but, as a business model, they would have to be deemed a failure in business terms if they fail to recoup their losses.

FFS Munchkin. Everything is an argument with you isn't it ?

You are everything that is wrong with this forum.

Look, you are turning this debate into a p1ssing match.

I was responding to beshocked's claim that Connacht and Glasgow are now only good because of the new European format. That is not the case, it is because the unions are putting more money into the teams, Saracens and Toulon have nowt to do with anything.

Why ignore dual contracts? It allows the Welsh clubs compete and is a great idea to keep stars at home but its not using money earned by the clubs.

I thought Munchkin was making a valid point- he didn't come across as being rude or patronising. There are teams in all three leagues who are subsidised by individuals, businesses or Unions that make their money elsewhere. I think thats a fair thing to point out.

beshocked wrote:If you had told me that Glasgow would convincingly defeat Leicester 5 years ago I wouldn't have believed you but fast forward 5 years, Glasgow are a team that deserves respect. Sure Leicester aren't the Leicester of old but they are still a tough and consistent team.

Well several years ago, before the reform of this competition, we were telling you about Glasgow and that they deserved respect and that you should watch out for them. And you're right, you didn't believe us! But you should have. They've been really good for quite a while now and the change in European competition has nothing to do with it; either way they are consistently a Top 4 team so it doesn't matter to them whether the qualification changes or not. As for Connacht, that shows how far good skills coaching and good breakdown coaching coupled with a great attitude and belief can take a team. Seems like both teams are where they are due to great coaching, good players and a great culture. That would deserve respect regardless of anything else. I think it's pretty tenuous to link their improvement to qualification changes. It's not like players wouldn't have taken any less pride in their jersey had it not changed.

Also think that just saying its about money isn't terribly respectful to the things that those teams have got right. Everyone knows money alone doesn't build a team. There are a huge number of other things that need to be gotten right on and off the field. The way Toulon are playing now, the struggles of Toulouse, and the falling short of teams like Clermont and even my beloved Ulster shows its not just about salaries. Feel like Connacht and Glasgow have a number of coaches and players, as well as people working off field behind scenes, who deserve massive credit.

LordDowlais wrote:Look, you are turning this debate into a p1ssing match.

I was responding to beshocked's claim that Connacht and Glasgow are now only good because of the new European format. That is not the case, it is because the unions are putting more money into the teams, Saracens and Toulon have nowt to do with anything.

How on earth do you fail to see that Sarries and Toulon have everything to do with it? How on earth do you fail to comprehend the relevance of discussing the different models? Especially when it was you who brought the privately owned V's Union owned models into the discussion?

Get a grip, LD.

Notch wrote:I thought Munchkin was making a valid point

What a surprise.

This thread is not about who subsidises who. This is a thread about Europe. beshocked mentioned that two teams are better because of the new European format, he was told otherwise, and given the reason why, then the mafia have now come on here and are trying to turn it into a p1ssing match.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:I thought Munchkin was making a valid point

What a surprise.

This thread is not about who subsidises who. This is a thread about Europe. beshocked mentioned that two teams are better because of the new European format, he was told otherwise, and given the reason why, then the mafia have now come on here and are trying to turn it into a p1ssing match.

I think it's you that is looking for a bitching match, LD.

I will leave you to your victim card playing games. I'm out.

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, you are turning this debate into a p1ssing match.

I was responding to beshocked's claim that Connacht and Glasgow are now only good because of the new European format. That is not the case, it is because the unions are putting more money into the teams, Saracens and Toulon have nowt to do with anything.

How on earth do you fail to see that Sarries and Toulon have everything to do with it? How on earth do you fail to comprehend the relevance of discussing the different models? Especially when it was you who brought the privately owned V's Union owned models into the discussion?

Get a grip, LD.

No.

I did not bring union owned V private owned into anything. I was merely pointing out the following:-

1. Connacht's and Glasgow's improvements are nothing to do with the new European format.
2. Most union owned clubs get subsidised by the unions.

Both answers to questions asked. I was not bringing anything into it. But never mind, you and Notch are determined to drag this off topic with your nonsense. Both points above are accurate, whoopy doo for clubs who get subsidised by unions or wealthy backers, good for them, but lets not pretend that it was the whole revolution of the new European format that has enhanced the fortunes of Connacht and Glasgow.

Gooseberry wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:As well as TV coverage reducing, PRO12 teams European Cup home attendances make for disappointing reading.

2013/14 total attendances - 411,583 - H Cup/Challenge
2014/15 total attendances - 394,902 - Champions Cup/Challenge
2015/16 total attendances - 320,395 - Champions Cup/Challenge

That's a 91k drop over two years. 40k of that is Munster's alone. 14.5k to Cardiff, and Ulster 9.5, Leinster 8k, and Connacht 7.5k are the other big drops over 2 years.
Leinster had a bumper attendance in 2014/15 - 118k, but dropped last year.

Only one club has gained attendance year on year - up 4,500.
Glasgow.

Isnt that going to be affected by results though?
The Pro12 sides not progressing as well is going to cause a drop in their attendances.

Whats the solution here : European rugby has to be structured to ensure the teams with the biggest audiences have an inbuilt advantage?
Actually thats pretty much what did happen (just focused on the TV audience rather than the ground capacity)

The attendances dropped in the pool stages as well as reduced knockouts. Poorer performance meant less home quarters and then no knockouts last year. Challenge cup attendances have dropped too.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:I thought Munchkin was making a valid point

What a surprise.

This thread is not about who subsidises who. This is a thread about Europe. beshocked mentioned that two teams are better because of the new European format, he was told otherwise, and given the reason why, then the mafia have now come on here and are trying to turn it into a p1ssing match.

I'm just pointing out that Munchkin didn't say anything out of line. I think you're being unnecessarily rude right now over what is a very small matter.

Notch wrote:I thought Munchkin was making a valid point- he didn't come across as being rude or patronising. There are teams in all three leagues who are subsidised by individuals, businesses or Unions that make their money elsewhere. I think thats a fair thing to point out.

beshocked wrote:If you had told me that Glasgow would convincingly defeat Leicester 5 years ago I wouldn't have believed you but fast forward 5 years, Glasgow are a team that deserves respect. Sure Leicester aren't the Leicester of old but they are still a tough and consistent team.

Well several years ago, before the reform of this competition, we were telling you about Glasgow and that they deserved respect and that you should watch out for them. And you're right, you didn't believe us! But you should have. They've been really good for quite a while now and the change in European competition has nothing to do with it; either way they are consistently a Top 4 team so it doesn't matter to them whether the qualification changes or not. As for Connacht, that shows how far good skills coaching and good breakdown coaching coupled with a great attitude and belief can take a team. Seems like both teams are where they are due to great coaching, good players and a great culture. That would deserve respect regardless of anything else. I think it's pretty tenuous to link their improvement to qualification changes. It's not like players wouldn't have taken any less pride in their jersey had it not changed.

Also think that just saying its about money isn't terribly respectful to the things that those teams have got right. Everyone knows money alone doesn't build a team. There are a huge number of other things that need to be gotten right on and off the field. The way Toulon are playing now, the struggles of Toulouse, and the falling short of teams like Clermont and even my beloved Ulster shows its not just about salaries. Feel like Connacht and Glasgow have a number of coaches and players, as well as people working off field behind scenes, who deserve massive credit.

Notch Glasgow have struggled in the HC for years. Connacht have played mostly in the Challenge Cup, being unable to get past the established Irish trio of clubs.

Perhaps it's merely coincidental that a rise in Glasgow and Connacht's fortunes has been linked to the HC qualification though I guess you could argue Glasgow's progress happened before the changes.

I started to respect Glasgow's domestic form but didn't change their European form. I start to respect a team more when they start performing in all competitions.

I guess you also have to factor in whether you believe a decline in the fortunes in the likes of Munster,Leinster and Ulster is linked to European qualification because inevitably a weaker trio helps Connacht too.

Connacht and Glasgow beating two of the old guard, Toulouse and Tigers IMO shows that the new competition is not as bad as people think. I think it's great to see.

I agree of course money doesn't build a team -people forget that Wray has wasted a lot of money over the years at Saracens, being a mid table team for a lot of the 90s and 2000s. Wray is much maligned but it's taken a long time for Saracens to get the structure. I've always said the biggest issue was a lack of a true home.

A lot of other rugby fans don't understand this because their team is either funded by their union, has had their own stadium for years etc.

I agree when I think sin e said having a private owner is not a sustainable model, every club has their trials and tribulations. Getting a stadium in London is an absolute nightmare - so tough that Wasps have upped sticks and moved to Coventry.

I've been impressed by the way Wasps have been embraced by Coventry. Okay it's bad for the original Coventry RFC but Wasps have been very canny.

Wasps being rebuilt by Dai Young could well be a threat this season again too.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:I thought Munchkin was making a valid point

What a surprise.

This thread is not about who subsidises who. This is a thread about Europe. beshocked mentioned that two teams are better because of the new European format, he was told otherwise, and given the reason why, then the mafia have now come on here and are trying to turn it into a p1ssing match.

Without wanting to split hairs, the thread as per the Opening Thread (written by me, by the way), is actually about the p!55 poor coverage of European Rugby, or to be specific, the failure to cover the Challenge Cup.

So what a surprise I've had to see it railroaded so off topic and down the usual arguments between the usual posters...

The 2nd comp will always struggle when played on the same days as the premier one. They need to look at ways collaboratively with all the leagues to play on say the Thursday and Friday. Still only the 2 games on tv though but thats what people in general want to see; the top teams (plus the Italians apparently!).

No 7&1/2 wrote:The 2nd comp will always struggle when played on the same days as the premier one. They need to look at ways collaboratively with all the leagues to play on say the Thursday and Friday. Still only the 2 games on tv though but thats what people in general want to see; the top teams (plus the Italians apparently!).

NOPE... don't buy that at all.. check out the fixtures. There are a lot of games that don't clash, and when Sky are covering a Champions Match, then why cant BT cover a Challenge Cup match and vice versa. If there is a Champions Cup match on both at the same time, use their RED BUTTON feature or just stream it through their web sites, after all, they aren't interested in rugby, we all know its a battle for Broadband, so show your technology..

And as for play on Thr and Fri check the fixtures.. a lot are, yet they aren't covered. Here's the first 4 rounds..

Round 1 Thu 13-Oct 19:45 Harlequins v Stade Francais Paris [BT] Round 1 Fri 14-Oct 19:05 Ospreys v Newcastle Falcons Round 1 Fri 14-Oct 19:30 Grenoble v Lyon Round 1 Fri 14-Oct 19:30 Newport Gwent Dragons v Brive Round 1 Fri 14-Oct 19:45 Bristol Rugby v Cardiff Blues Round 1 Sat 15-Oct 14:00 Timisoara Saracens v Edinburgh Rugby Round 1 Sat 15-Oct 15:00 Benetton Treviso v La Rochelle Round 1 Sat 15-Oct 15:00 Enisei-STM v Worcester Warriors Round 1 Sat 15-Oct 17:00 Bayonne v Gloucester Rugby Round 1 Sat 15-Oct 20:45 Pau v Bath Rugby Round 2 Thu 20-Oct 19:45 Bath Rugby v Bristol Rugby [Sky] Round 2 Thu 20-Oct 20:00 Stade Francais Paris v Timisoara Saracens Round 2 Thu 20-Oct 20:45 La Rochelle v Bayonne Round 2 Fri 21-Oct 19:15 Cardiff Blues v Pau Round 2 Sat 22-Oct 15:00 Gloucester Rugby v Benetton Treviso Round 2 Sat 22-Oct 15:00 Enisei-STM v Newport Gwent Dragons Round 2 Sat 22-Oct 15:00 Worcester Warriors v Brive Round 2 Sat 22-Oct 15:15 Edinburgh Rugby v Harlequins [BT] Round 2 Sat 22-Oct 20:45 Lyon v Ospreys [FR4 - France only] Round 2 Sun 23-Oct 15:00 Newcastle Falcons v Grenoble Round 3 Thu 08-Dec 19:45 Gloucester Rugby v La Rochelle [Sky] Round 3 Thu 08-Dec 20:45 Grenoble v Ospreys [beIN Sports (Some foreign - Fench)] Round 3 Fri 09-Dec 19:30 Lyon v Newcastle Falcons Round 3 Fri 09-Dec 20:00 Bayonne v Benetton Treviso Round 3 Sat 10-Dec 14:30 Cardiff Blues v Bath Rugby Round 3 Sat 10-Dec 15:00 Enisei-STM v Brive Round 3 Sat 10-Dec 15:00 Worcester Warriors v Newport Gwent Dragons Round 3 Sat 10-Dec 15:00 Timisoara Saracens v Harlequins Round 3 Sat 10-Dec 19:45 Edinburgh Rugby v Stade Francais Paris [FR4 - France only] Round 3 Sun 11-Dec 15:00 Bristol Rugby v Pau Round 4 Thu 15-Dec 19:45 Bath Rugby v Cardiff Blues [Sky] Round 4 Thu 15-Dec 20:45 Stade Francais Paris v Edinburgh Rugby [beIN Sports (Some foreign - Fench)] Round 4 Fri 16-Dec 19:00 Brive v Enisei-STM Round 4 Fri 16-Dec 19:30 Newport Gwent Dragons v Worcester Warriors Round 4 Fri 16-Dec 20:00 Pau v Bristol Rugby Round 4 Sat 17-Dec 15:00 Benetton Treviso v Bayonne Round 4 Sat 17-Dec 15:00 Ospreys v Grenoble Round 4 Sat 17-Dec 15:00 Harlequins v Timisoara Saracens Round 4 Sat 17-Dec 20:45 La Rochelle v Gloucester Rugby [FR4 - France only] Round 4 Sun 18-Dec 15:00 Newcastle Falcons v Lyon

Out of 40 games in the first 4 rounds only 10 are being broadcast and out of those 10, only 5 being broadcast for the UK on BT or Sky Sports... So did they say in their bids, give us this tournament and we'll broadcast 1/5th of the games.. That must have been one hell of a lunch they put on before signing the broadcast rights...

Now, say that's good coverage as promised by these broadcasters when they where bidding for the rights...

If they really didn't want the Challenge Cup, why couldn't Sky and BY have split the Champions Cup and let terrestrial tv bid for the Challenge Cup. Surely an ITV/BBC joint bid (like the 6 Nations is now) could have broadcast it. After all, BBC have BBC2 so not as get in the way of Strictly, and ITV have 2/3/4 plus other repeat channels, they could have shown it on.

It really doesn't help sell the European game if they aren't even going to show it.. I actually think this deal has done more damage to European Rugby than good. Don't mean playing standards, I just mean in the marketing.

Like I said earlier theres only so muchh that can be broadcast. You can't play 1st and 2nd tier together and the bbc need to bid for it.

Instead of trying to watch on TV, time to go and watch them live.

PRO12 European home gates up overall on last season over first two rounds by about 9,300.  But still down 4,500 (14/15) and 14,200 (13/14).

Team Gates up - about 16,000 total
Connacht - Champions Cup
Munster - Champions
Cardiff - Challenge
Edinburgh - Challenge
Glasgow - Champions

Team Gates down - about 6,700 in total
Leinster - Champions
Ulster - Champions
Dragons - Challenge
Ospreys - Challenge
Scarlets - Champions
Treviso - Challenge

American footy live on the gravy channel right now, from a packed Twickenham. 3 hours of gabbin-on, interrupted by 1 hour of action no doubt. Suits the beeb.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Like I said earlier theres only so muchh that can be broadcast. You can't play 1st and 2nd tier together and the bbc need to bid for it.

The up and coming Bath v Cardiff game on free-to-air would be nice.
And quite possibly, 1000s of team Wales only fans who are not even aware of a Euro rugby comp going on might tune and like it. Only club rugby they're really exposed too at present is the Pro12. A bouncing Rec live on the telly could work wonders.

Pot Hale wrote:Instead of trying to watch on TV, time to go and watch them live.

What about those whose team doesn't reach the knockout stages? Cardiff were often out of it by Xmas and I can't say i've ever seen a Euro final on telly other than us beating Toulon.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Like I said earlier theres only so muchh that can be broadcast. You can't play 1st and 2nd tier together and the bbc need to bid for it.

The up and coming Bath v Cardiff game on free-to-air would be nice.
And quite possibly, 1000s of team Wales only fans who are not even aware of a Euro rugby comp going on might tune and like it. Only club rugby they're really exposed too at present is the Pro12. A bouncing Rec live on the telly could work wonders.

True but no free to air station bid enough.

All I can say about the matter is, thank feck it is over for the next few weeks. Nobody really cares about the competition outside of England.

The second tier is a joke, and we were all sold do the swanny by greedy businessmen. Never mind we have a few weeks now without the farce that is now the European competition.

LordDowlais wrote:All I can say about the matter is, thank feck it is over for the next few weeks. Nobody really cares about the competition outside of England.

The second tier is a joke, and we were all sold do the swanny by greedy businessmen. Never mind we have a few weeks now without the farce that is now the European competition.

Seems to have been quite a few exciting games in both the European Champions Cup and the Challenge Cup. Not sure you can say only the English are trying.

It’s not even as if it’s been a one-sided domination by any nation.

There were some great games over the weekend, I really enjoyed it. The Munster and Edinburgh wins, plus a spirited performance from the Scarlets.

Really enjoyable weekend of rugby

Edinburgh/Quins game was a particular highlight.

I probably watched 5/6 games across the two comps.

LordDowlais wrote:All I can say about the matter is, thank feck it is over for the next few weeks. Nobody really cares about the competition outside of England.

The second tier is a joke, and we were all sold do the swanny by greedy businessmen. Never mind we have a few weeks now without the farce that is now the European competition.

As others have said you're missing some good games. A few here seem more keen to support tv stations than rugby!

You can all say what you like. We are three years in, and we still do not have all these sponsors that we were promised, the second tier is even less marketable than ever, we were told that the the European comp would be the shangri-la of rugby now that the unions are our out of the way, but lets be honest here, it's dying on it's feet, BT has another 2 years left after this one, unless they bid the same money again, then the competition is done for.

Why are people avoiding the elephant in the room ? We have not got what we were promised from the outset, you were saying last year that it was only the second year and it was still in it's infancy, well that excuse is a non starter now.

We will have to wait until 2 years time, but trust me, it will be very messy, and I reckon the unions will have to sort the mess out.