Aviva Premiership - Round 6

First topic message reminder :

Created in response to London Tigers request on the Round 5 thread. Will not be anything like LT's standard, just doing it as a thanks for the effort he puts in on a weekly basis. Due to location thought I would list the fixtures in North American format . All kick off times taken from BBC Sport website (so don't blame me if they are wrong).

Friday 7th Octiober

Sale at Bath (Kick Off 7.45pm).
Both teams coming off a morale boosting wins last week. First thought is that Bath should be too strong at home but that could be doing a disservice to Sale, who must be the most underrated side in the league.

Saturday 8th October

Gloucester at Exeter (3.00pm)
Opposite of the first game with both teams coming off a narrow (ish in Gloucester's case) loss in round 5. Can't see anything other than a Chiefs win at home. If HKC is really lucky then PDJ will start if Afoa is in fact injured after limping off last weekend.

Northampton at Harlequins (3.00pm)
Two sides who would have hoped for better starts but two teams who have beaten last years finalists between them. Won't call it as a Saints fan but hoping for an away win.

Worcester at Leicester (3.00pm)
Tigers have looked unconvincing at times in defense but not seen anything from Warriors to suggest they will outscore them, especially at Welford Rd. Seem to remember hearing that Toomua has arrived in the UK with the Aus squad but is out with concussion and that it's not his first in recent times. Not verified and I hope it's not accurate.

Bristol at Newcastle (3.00pm)
Newcastle must surely win this one as Bristol's defense hasn't looked even close to Premiership standard. Could be a good moral boosting victory for Newcastle but expect Bristol have been targeting this game since the fixtures were announced.

Sunday 9th October (3.00pm)

Wasps at Saracens (3.00pm)
Without doubt game of the round. Wasps playing the more attractive rugby but Saracens are at home and have been able to rotate some players already. Does it come down to Saracens defense against Wasps attack?  Hard to call this one.

Appalling second half from us.

Tactics changed back to Kick kick kick.  
We need to get rid of this!!!!

Oh and please.....Delayney must be dropped.

But I'll take the win and we're up to 6th with 3 wins.

We only let one try in, sacking the defence coach has certainly helped ;p

Great game from Quins.

Really like we'd turned back the clock. The coaches had planned the tactics perfectly, the defense with the rush, the choice to keep away from lineouts and the decision making around the rucks were all spot on more often then not.

Only real downside was our precision in attack, fluffed too many chances tbh. Can't believe Foden stayed on the pitch though and we didn't get a penalty try...

Big shout out to Jones, Synkler and Swiel. All three really helped win the game.

nathan wrote:We only let one try in, sacking the defence coach has certainly helped ;p

If only we could play Worcester every week...

The radio were bigging up the contribution of Smith and Roberts. I wonder when we'll see sense and see Smith starting again. If you have defensive problems then a centre that tackles like a flanker is generally a helpful option.

Lets hope for a quality game today (yesterday looked rather dull)........

Re-posted from the international thread;

kingelderfield wrote:
Wade is too good for this England side.

Simpson, Cipriani, Eastmond & Wade.

None are any good and so will have to play for that bunch of duffers who've been sent to coventry.

This Saturday will once again prove how poor they all are.

That obviously should read 'Sunday' as in today's match.

If Wasps forwards can compete and provide some parity of possession, then I'm really hoping that the greater creativity of their back line will shine on this small plastic pitch.

Wade for England.......no chance, even Sharples is a head of him.

Come on you Wasps. It's time to turn Eddie's head in what is undoubtedly the English trial match.

p.s what price Lozowski plays a blinder as well?

Wade has to show that his defence andability under the high ball are at least solid. If not then he'll be a walking target come the internationals. If you are Aus then the crossfield kick to Folau down Wade's wing will be on all game. 

I'm very interested to see how this game goes. Very different styles of play but both sides know where the try line is. Big game to have just before Europe. Maybe we'll see one or two players rested if the game goes away from their side.

Wasps don't seem to have that many 'big names' in their team just yet, but they're certainly the top performing team in Europe right now. I always did like Wasps back in the day, before they hit their slump, but it seems they are getting back to old ways now. Perhaps a few more of their lads should be in that England team?

yappysnap wrote:Great game from Quins.

Really like we'd turned back the clock. The coaches had planned the tactics perfectly, the defense with the rush, the choice to keep away from lineouts and the decision making around the rucks were all spot on more often then not.

Only real downside was our precision in attack, fluffed too many chances tbh. Can't believe Foden stayed on the pitch though and we didn't get a penalty try...

Big shout out to Jones, Synkler and Swiel. All three really helped win the game.

I have to admit, even through the lenses of my most green, gold, and black coloured glasses, that was a beat down.  Could have been worse, and perhaps should have been.  I can think of only one or two positions from 1 - 15 where Quins were not equal or better.  Quins seemed so much better prepared and conditioned.

And your home jerseys this year are likely the best jerseys the Premiership have seen in a long, long time.  So you beat us down and looked better than us at the same time. %^&^&$$!!!

On the other hand, it is now almost 2 years (after the Treviso matches in Euro Rugby the season before last) since Saints changed attack strategy and started playing this odd, plodding non-Rugby, anti-Rugby, vomitus Rugby.  Prior had been on of the top scoring teams in the league, and now can't score to save their bums.  

The status quo is not workable and is losing Rugby.  This requires deeper analysis...................

Just got home from a 24 hour shift in A&E last night which was supposed to be only 12 until some Einstein impersonator came in with a shattered hand because he got drunk and decided to punch out an office building.  Over and over.  He lost.  My comment "Amputate the sucker, I am peed about Saints and want to go home" did not find traction with the staff and they made me stay for another 10 hours fix and reattach every stinking bone and every stinking tendon - the right way, too!.  His hand will be fully functional after a few more corrective procedures when it heals in about 6 months.  And all he will end up doing with it is picking his nose - at least he will be able to do that with full dexterity and no pain.  Maybe he will be signed for Saints to play inside centre.  .

mikey_dragon wrote:Wasps don't seem to have that many 'big names' in their team just yet, but they're certainly the top performing team in Europe right now. I always did like Wasps back in the day, before they hit their slump, but it seems they are getting back to old ways now. Perhaps a few more of their lads should be in that England team?

They don't? I'd say they have big names across almost the entire 15

They're more well known in the premiership - but nobody outside of England would consider Cipriani a big name despite his former tabloid attention, nor Nathan Hughes unless he plays for England. Gopperth is certainly no star either but he's always been a very good club player - obviously there's Beale to come in, last year you had Piatau, and Halai is the other most well known. Marty Moore was another good signing by Wasps, he could have been Leinster and Ireland first choice TH by now - too bad that Leinster had too many international class TH's. Aside from that nobody outside the premiership would know the team or consider them superstars, they'd just know that they've been playing really well last season and this one thus far.

Saints are in dire straits but Jim doesn't see it. We've played an average of about 2 good games a season since we won the title. Basic skills are woeful.

Launchbury, Haskell, Symons are pretty big names but I get your point. They're not exactly star studded, they just seem to pick up good players and improve them. They play a great band of rugby.

Further to my post above - I've forgotten about Launchbury, and Le Roux to come in. So they have more star players than I thought.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Launchbury, Haskell, Symons are pretty big names but I get your point. They're not exactly star studded, they just seem to pick up good players and improve them. They play a great band of rugby.

Yes I think that's what I was trying to say. Symons is unknown to me. I think you're certainly right about how they can pick up good players and improve them, at least that's been the case in recent seasons.

For Wasps a large number of their bigger names are injured. Haskell, Beale, Le Roux are all out and you'd know those three. Launchbury is still in there and I'm sure you've heard of Marty Moore, Cipriani and Gopperth. You're likely to recognise Nathan Hughes in the future if you watch the game, he's a monster.

Scottrf wrote:Saints are in dire straits but Jim doesn't see it. We've played an average of about 2 good games a season since we won the title. Basic skills are woeful.

This is the worry. It might take some risk to move to a younger back line (as well as some younger legs up front), but the status quo is not working.

For me, a piece of this is the loss of Hartley who won games on pure leadership. He is now a big worry, not just for England or Saints, but for career.

Lovely move by Cipriani to beat Billy Vunipola and set up a Wasps try.

Even stevens at 8-8 but Saracens are proving to be a tough challenge for Wasps.

Not sure JG actually grounded that ...

Saracens get a comfortable win.

They defended well against Wasps and only Cipriani unlocked them.

Sarries were clinical and Wasps were not. Pretty simply really. Sarries pushed the referee right up to the yc warning and the preceded to give no penalties away. Wasps got their warning and their and then their yellow card which just helped Sarries ease to the TBP finish.

Wasps really didn't disrupt the opposition lineout and breakdown like they did in every other game this season. The loss of Jones and the choice to omit Gaskell from the starting line up didn't help them.

Wasps conceded early and then chased the game, they put themselves under masses of pressure and Sarries just gobbled them up.

Sarries do look beatable, their basics in attack are poor and if you score early and make them actually play rather then just tackle and concede pens then they look a bit more average.

Obviously that's frickin hard to do!

doctor_grey wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Saints are in dire straits but Jim doesn't see it. We've played an average of about 2 good games a season since we won the title. Basic skills are woeful.

This is the worry. It might take some risk to move to a younger back line (as well as some younger legs up front), but the status quo is not working.

For me, a piece of this is the loss of Hartley who won games on pure leadership. He is now a big worry, not just for England or Saints, but for career.

Really strange isn't it?

You have a lot of talent there, but the gameplan, and your centres just seem to kill it. If you can't win all the mauls and scrums then you seem a bit lost atm. Myler, Mallinder, North would be such a better backline to build around. Hey

yappysnap wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Saints are in dire straits but Jim doesn't see it. We've played an average of about 2 good games a season since we won the title. Basic skills are woeful.

This is the worry.  It might take some risk to move to a younger back line (as well as some younger legs up front), but the status quo is not working.  

For me, a piece of this is the loss of Hartley who won games on pure leadership.  He is now a big worry, not just for England or Saints, but for career.  

Really strange isn't it?

You have a lot of talent there, but the gameplan, and your centres just seem to kill it. If you can't win all the mauls and scrums then you seem a bit lost atm. Myler, Mallinder, North would be such a better backline to build around. Hey

I guess we will have a clear picture about Saints after the next two weeks playing Montpellier and Castres followed by Gloucester. At that point, we will know with real certainty the team we have and whether there is any real clue or not. To me, that's the point we start considering Jim Mallinder and team. Until then, let's have at it.

Sam - I think losing Tommy Taylor in the warm up was more disruptive for our line out than anything else.
He has been outstanding for us in the loose to.

The pack was already disrupted with the loss of our 2 outstanding back row performers so far this season - Sam Jones & Guy Thompson forcing our normal reserve hooker Ash Johnson to start at 6.

yappysnap wrote:Wasps conceded early and then chased the game, they put themselves under masses of pressure and Sarries just gobbled them up.

Sarries do look beatable, their basics in attack are poor and if you score early and make them actually play rather then just tackle and concede pens then they look a bit more average.

Obviously that's frickin hard to do!

I agree. I think it's an area Saracens definitely need to improve. Need to try and be a bit more creative and less guileless.

Can't rely on outmuscling the opposition in every game.

Pleased to see George making an impact even if it's from the bench, of course he's done that for England too.

doctor_grey wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Great game from Quins.

Really like we'd turned back the clock. The coaches had planned the tactics perfectly, the defense with the rush, the choice to keep away from lineouts and the decision making around the rucks were all spot on more often then not.

Only real downside was our precision in attack, fluffed too many chances tbh. Can't believe Foden stayed on the pitch though and we didn't get a penalty try...

Big shout out to Jones, Synkler and Swiel. All three really helped win the game.

strategy and started playing this odd, plodding non-Rugby, anti-Rugby, vomitus Rugby.... now can't score to save their bums.  

 .

I thought you were talking about us there for a second....its an uncanny similarity.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Sam - I think losing Tommy Taylor in the warm up was more disruptive for our line out than anything else.
He has been outstanding for us in the loose to.

The pack was already disrupted with the loss of our 2 outstanding back row performers so far this season - Sam Jones & Guy Thompson forcing our normal reserve hooker Ash Johnson to start at 6.

Agreed. Three big losses. They had all shown enough form to make the shirts their own this season so it wasn't the best game to lose them all. There's plenty of flair to add to your backline as well. Your physios must be very busy at present.

beshocked wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Wasps conceded early and then chased the game, they put themselves under masses of pressure and Sarries just gobbled them up.

Sarries do look beatable, their basics in attack are poor and if you score early and make them actually play rather then just tackle and concede pens then they look a bit more average.

Obviously that's frickin hard to do!

I agree. I think it's an area Saracens definitely need to improve. Need to try and be a bit more creative and less guileless.

Can't rely on outmuscling the opposition in every game.

Pleased to see George making an impact even if it's from the bench, of course he's done that for England too.

Ah, you mean with 'more guile' then....

Saracens are still the benchmark, but they don't look like the impenetrable wall they were last season. Saints (in their 1st half showing) and Wasps (in their 1st half showing) had Saracens worried and provided what will be the blueprint for beating them. Harlequins, an average team by any standard this year, made Saracens look fairly ordinary. Plus, the international window may take its toll on a team that supplies more than its fair share of international players.

What annoys be about Saracens isn't the way they play - its how they keep getting in the referee's ear. They were giving away lots of penalties in their own 22 yesterday and I thought they were very lucky not to have at least 2 players yellow carded for repeated infringement. It can be argued that they're savvy and are playing to the referee, but for me, its just getting too disrespectful now. they're somehow managing to get away with murder on most occasions.

Having said that, the team ethic is outstanding, one can't help but admire it.

They're there for the taking if you play for 80 minutes though.

80mins!

with all the stoppages and scrum resets I think 40mins will do it.

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Wasps conceded early and then chased the game, they put themselves under masses of pressure and Sarries just gobbled them up.

Sarries do look beatable, their basics in attack are poor and if you score early and make them actually play rather then just tackle and concede pens then they look a bit more average.

Obviously that's frickin hard to do!

I agree. I think it's an area Saracens definitely need to improve. Need to try and be a bit more creative and less guileless.

Can't rely on outmuscling the opposition in every game.

Pleased to see George making an impact even if it's from the bench, of course he's done that for England too.

Ah, you mean with 'more guile' then....

Saracens are still the benchmark, but they don't look like the impenetrable wall they were last season. Saints (in their 1st half showing) and Wasps (in their 1st half showing) had Saracens worried and provided what will be the blueprint for beating them. Harlequins, an average team by any standard this year, made Saracens look fairly ordinary. Plus, the international window may take its toll on a team that supplies more than its fair share of international players.

What annoys be about Saracens isn't the way they play - its how they keep getting in the referee's ear. They were giving away lots of penalties in their own 22 yesterday and I thought they were very lucky not to have at least 2 players yellow carded for repeated infringement. It can be argued that they're savvy and are playing to the referee, but for me, its just getting too disrespectful now. they're somehow managing to get away with murder on most occasions.

Having said that, the team ethic is outstanding, one can't help but admire it.

They're there for the taking if you play for 80 minutes though.

Yes more guile.

I agree they are very much beatable.

Teams have to adapt and improve, Saracens have not. The attacking game still needs work.

Neither Wasps or Saints built a big enough lead to worry Saracens. Quins on the other hand did.

Saints were too one dimensional against Saracens themselves.

We'll likely see against a Toulon a pack that can go toe to toe with Saracens and that's where the difficulties will come.

A team cannot rely solely on one facet of their game if they want to stay the best.

Last season the attacking game though not perfect was in better shape.

Wasps were unfortunate with their injuries in the forwards and it's certainly not what you need when facing a pretty much full strength Saracens pack.

You do not win the AP this early, plenty of rugby to come.

Saracens might be currently at the top of the table but there's things that need fixing.

I believe Wasps will be much stronger when high profile backs come in and forwards return from injury so this result isn't a fair reflection just as Wasps hammering of Saracens last season wasn't one either.

Poor old Tom Cruse our 3rd choice hooker had to play all game & was shot half way through the second half. Once Brits was replaced by George it was no surprise that he scored 2 quick tries to clinch the bp.

Agree with Beshocked we should be much stronger when we have our injured players back.
I'm just glad we are playing Zebre this weekend instead of Toulon!

A big part in Sarries struggles ball in hand is Lozowski, I don't think he's quite attuned to the players around him yet and seems to put pressure on the backline. Likewise missing Goode and Ashton doesn't help.

B91212 wrote:
Sale at Bath (Kick Off 7.45pm).
Both teams coming off a morale boosting wins last week. First thought is that Bath should be too strong at home but that could be doing a disservice to Sale, who must be the most underrated side in the league.

Does not look as if Sale had the best of preparation:

Sale Sharks players get stuck in a lift