Southgate's England and the next England manager

First topic message reminder :

Get to close the Allardyce thread in record time, now caretaker manager Southgate has a chance to stake his claim for the job, whilst we all discuss almost anyone else as the thought of Southgate worries many.

England still can’t defend. Shame.

With the amount they score, though, the Euros could be entertaining.

Duty281 wrote:England still can’t defend. Shame

No surprise though. Keane is abysmal, and both full backs have seen their best days. Doesn’t help, that Rice and Henderson are terrible too. Been a shocking first half performance.

Czech Rep 2-1 England FT

Whole team were awful, really were. Hard to lay that at anyone's door, even if I think Southgate was absolutely lost to see his plan not working. Was very poor management in that, no doubt about it, but he wasn't helped by his whole team playing so badly.

Well that was a big steaming pile of donkey droppings.

On that basis England's 2020 campaign is going to be very short.

Was I the only one shouting at the TV at the way the defenders kept passing the ball back to Pickford until he was forced to boot it long...straight back to the Czechs...repeatedly?

Absolutely nothing good to take away from that game. Czechs were the only team that looked like they actually wanted to win. Utterly brainless play by England and next to no communication, judging from how cheesed off Rose was getting. Nobody wanted to run with the ball (except Sterling) and nobody wanted to move into a position to receive it.

In fact it reminded me horribly of watching Middlesbrough.

I've said in the past that Sterling should never wear an England shirt again, given the fact he plays like its 1 v 11, but last night you couldn't blame him for doing that.

I'd suggest to Southgate that he finds some players who actually WANT to play for England, even if it means scouring the lower leagues, because this lot look like they couldn't care less. They're happy to have a stroll in the park against the minnows, but when they actually have to put a shift in, they lose all interest.

dyrewolfe wrote:Well that was a big steaming pile of donkey droppings.

On that basis England's 2020 campaign is going to be very short.

Was I the only one shouting at the TV at the way the defenders kept passing the ball back to Pickford until he was forced to boot it long...straight back to the Czechs...repeatedly?

Absolutely nothing good to take away from that game. Czechs were the only team that looked like they actually wanted to win. Utterly brainless play by England and next to no communication, judging from how upset Rose was getting. Nobody wanted to run with the ball (except Sterling) and nobody wanted to move into a position to receive it.

In fact it reminded me horribly of watching Middlesbrough.

I've said in the past that Sterling should never wear an England shirt again, given the fact he plays like its 1 v 11, but last night you couldn't blame him for doing that.

I'd suggest to Southgate that he finds some players who actually WANT to play for England, even if it means souring the lower leagues, because this lot look like they couldn't care less.

Slightly extreme to say the players don't care.

Bad night at the office, move on to the next one.

DP wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:Well that was a big steaming pile of donkey droppings.

On that basis England's 2020 campaign is going to be very short.

Was I the only one shouting at the TV at the way the defenders kept passing the ball back to Pickford until he was forced to boot it long...straight back to the Czechs...repeatedly?

Absolutely nothing good to take away from that game. Czechs were the only team that looked like they actually wanted to win. Utterly brainless play by England and next to no communication, judging from how upset Rose was getting. Nobody wanted to run with the ball (except Sterling) and nobody wanted to move into a position to receive it.

In fact it reminded me horribly of watching Middlesbrough.

I've said in the past that Sterling should never wear an England shirt again, given the fact he plays like its 1 v 11, but last night you couldn't blame him for doing that.

I'd suggest to Southgate that he finds some players who actually WANT to play for England, even if it means souring the lower leagues, because this lot look like they couldn't care less.

Slightly extreme to say the players don't care.

Bad night at the office, move on to the next one.

I actually said they LOOK like they couldn't care less, based on the lack of effort on show. Maybe they are just rubbish...or incapable of playing with anyone other than their club sides.

Losing against the Czech Republic isn't that bad in itself...they are a decent team. Its the MANNER in which we lost. Just looked utterly clueless and incompetent for 85 of the 90 minutes.

Also the second "bad night at the office" in succession, following the godawful showing against Kosovo. Only spared humiliation due to the fact we managed to score 5 in the first half.

How Barkley gets in the team/squad ahead of Grealish and Maddison (albeit appreciate Maddison was ill this time) is beyond me - woeful player

First qualifying loss in 10 years. Semi-final of a World Cup.

We should scour the lower leagues

It's not all doom and gloom.

We had a bad second 45 against Kosovo and a bad game last night. On balance its not the end of the world.

Michael Keane isn't the answer though.

It is a bit of an overreaction based on one defeat. Three main concerns at the moment:

1) Southgate is very poor at reading a game and often makes changes too late.
2) Defence is very suspect. Left-back, centre back and goalkeeper options are all pretty weak. Little scope for improvement either.
3) Southgate doesn’t seem 100% sure what his best line-up is and he needs to discover this quickly.

As for next summer, England look to be behind the French and the Belgians, possibly the Dutch, but no one else. Semi-finals should be the target and from there England will have home advantage....although Wembley isn’t exactly a fortress.

Agree with all of that. Unsure why Keane is getting such a run, he's in a notably poor Everton defence and has made multiple mistakes in poor England performances. I'd put him behind so many choices that it's bizarre he starts, let alone gets in a squad.

Slightly wary that Rice isn't settling to his best, but he's 20 and the midfield management is mangled. Mount was used weirdly yesterday, seemed to press for Kane at times and was very high up the pitch. It didn't work at all and left Henderson and Rice against three. Henderson also had a really bad game with the ball. Feels that any of the midfield three is up for grabs, including its structure.

We have a bunch of reasonably ok left backs, and a batch of very good right backs.

Sancho had his worst game for England and it was a shame the out of form Rashford was the alternative.

————————Kane——————-
——Sterling———————Sancho
——————--Maddison—————-
————-—?——————-?————
Chilwell—-Maguire——-—?——TAA
———————Pickford————————

Pretty much how I have it. The ? need filling, but I don’t honestly think we have anyone remotely decent enough to fill them.

You'd be mad not to pick Rice, he's clearly the best English defensive midfielder.

I think Maguire is a little overrated too.

I'd be tempted to go Winks with him, but he barely plays. We may have to give up on a 10 type player in Maddison to cover the poor defence and functional midfield.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:You'd be mad not to pick Rice, he's clearly the best English defensive midfielder.

I think Maguire is a little overrated too.

I'd be tempted to go Winks with him, but he barely plays. We may have to give up on a 10 type player in Maddison to cover the poor defence and functional midfield.

Sorry, but Rice is a complete pudding at international level...hopelessly out of his depth. Agree about Winks though...would be the preferred option, if he got any game time.

Duty281 wrote:It is a bit of an overreaction based on one defeat. Three main concerns at the moment:

1) Southgate is very poor at reading a game and often makes changes too late.
2) Defence is very suspect. Left-back, centre back and goalkeeper options are all pretty weak. Little scope for improvement either.
3) Southgate doesn’t seem 100% sure what his best line-up is and he needs to discover this quickly.

As for next summer, England look to be behind the French and the Belgians, possibly the Dutch, but no one else. Semi-finals should be the target and from there England will have home advantage....although Wembley isn’t exactly a fortress.

Not an over-reaction.

The only reason England have such a long and impressive qualifying record is because we usually get grouped with minnows, full of semi-pro players.

Its the same thing every time. We steamroll the little countries, but the first time we come up against a decent team, we look like a pub side (after a heavy drinking session).

dyrewolfe wrote:

Duty281 wrote:It is a bit of an overreaction based on one defeat. Three main concerns at the moment:

1) Southgate is very poor at reading a game and often makes changes too late.
2) Defence is very suspect. Left-back, centre back and goalkeeper options are all pretty weak. Little scope for improvement either.
3) Southgate doesn’t seem 100% sure what his best line-up is and he needs to discover this quickly.

As for next summer, England look to be behind the French and the Belgians, possibly the Dutch, but no one else. Semi-finals should be the target and from there England will have home advantage....although Wembley isn’t exactly a fortress.

Not an over-reaction.

The only reason England have such a long and impressive qualifying record is because we usually get grouped with minnows, full of semi-pro players.

Its the same thing every time. We steamroll the little countries, but the first time we come up against a decent team, we look like a pub side (after a heavy drinking session).

It’s a overreaction. On the basis of one defeat, you’ve consigned England to a short stay at the upcoming Euros and suggested that Southgate needs to find new players. This is in spite of the fact that England have recently finished fourth in the world, have beaten Spain and Croatia in competitive fixtures just last year, and have beaten the Czechs (who you think are a decent side) 5-0 earlier in the year.

Currently, England are one of the top four teams in Europe and, I would say, comfortably inside the top eight in the world. One narrow away defeat doesn’t alter that.

Duty281 wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

Duty281 wrote:It is a bit of an overreaction based on one defeat. Three main concerns at the moment:

1) Southgate is very poor at reading a game and often makes changes too late.
2) Defence is very suspect. Left-back, centre back and goalkeeper options are all pretty weak. Little scope for improvement either.
3) Southgate doesn’t seem 100% sure what his best line-up is and he needs to discover this quickly.

As for next summer, England look to be behind the French and the Belgians, possibly the Dutch, but no one else. Semi-finals should be the target and from there England will have home advantage....although Wembley isn’t exactly a fortress.

Not an over-reaction.

The only reason England have such a long and impressive qualifying record is because we usually get grouped with minnows, full of semi-pro players.

Its the same thing every time. We steamroll the little countries, but the first time we come up against a decent team, we look like a pub side (after a heavy drinking session).

It’s a overreaction. On the basis of one defeat, you’ve consigned England to a short stay at the upcoming Euros and suggested that Southgate needs to find new players. This is in spite of the fact that England have recently finished fourth in the world, have beaten Spain and Croatia in competitive fixtures just last year, and have beaten the Czechs (who you think are a decent side) 5-0 earlier in the year.

Currently, England are one of the top four teams in Europe and, I would say, comfortably inside the top eight in the world. One narrow away defeat doesn’t alter that.

Wrong again.

Its not on the basis of the result...its on the basis of the performance. As I said losing was not so bad...it was the manner in which we lost. Did you not watch the game? Because if you did, you ought to be concerned at how utterly crap we were.

The fact we finished "fourth" in the world is irrelevant. At least if you care about winning silverware.

We thrashed Panama, edged Tunisia by the odd goal and only got past Colombia on penalties. Beat Sweden reasonably comfortably. None of these what you'd consider top sides in world football.

We bottled the semi-final against a good, though not brilliant Croatia...much the same way we lost to the Czech Republic. We didn't even turn up for the third place play-off...and lost twice to Belgium (partly thanks to Southgate playing a second string side first time round).

The FIFA rankings might put England 4th, but a lot of people (myself included) think they're about as reliable as the Russian athletics federation's anti-doping department. If we're 4th on the basis of beating lots of very poor teams, then the ranking system isn't worth much. Also got Belgium #1, despite the fact they only finished 3rd, while France (reigning world champions) are only #2.

So mediocrity might be okay for you, but I want to see an England side that wants to win trophies...not just turn up when it feels like it.

Sancho, Keane, Mount and Rice dropped for Rashford, Mings, Winks and Barkley.

I’m sick of Barkley, and whilst sad to see Rice carrying the can, happy to see Winks in. I’m a fan of Mings, especially in comparison to Keane, and hope Rashford finds joy playing for England that hasn’t happened in the league. He should add a more direct goal threat, which England lack when Kane goes dropping too deep.

Henderson lucky to still be playing, he was abysmal last time out. 66% pass accuracy from a limited creative passer anyway.

Chilwell back in for Rose, too. I honestly think they’re much of a muchness at this point, but do prefer Chilwell

Henderson lucky not to see red for that initial challenge.

Excellent finish from Rashford. Ole must be wondering where that version of Rashford has been all season.

2-0 after 20 minutes. Bulgaria look abysmal. Easy game for Mings and Winks to impress tonight.

Racist chanting at the ground. Could probably do us all a favour by abandoning this total mis-match.

I don’t think a PA announcement is going to deter these racist morons. England should walk off.

Barkley quietening me down, albeit in a game less competitive than training.

The story will now become crowd behaviour, as this contest is done

should've just walked off.

Disappointed after all the talk that England haven't just walked off, it's about time FIFA started banning these countries with scummy fans.

Great to see Mings in an England shirt.

Sad state of affairs that there are racist chants.
Can’t see them going anytime soon sadly.

considering they've all come wearing the same clothes, it's hardly down to isolated idiots.

look forward to UEFA issuing a €20 fine

Fair play to their captain for going over to talk to fans.

Exhibition stuff. Winks got caught out defensively twice early on but then settled into an easy game. Henderson managed to still play poorly and happy to see he’s suspended for a game. 

Everyone else played well, especially Kane - although he missed an easy chance - as well as Barkley, Rashford and Sterling.

Should have won by about fifteen-love. Bulgaria an embarrassment on and off the field.

Second half monkey chants too. Should have gone off, really. The first half stoppage seems an easy part

Duty281 wrote:I don’t think a PA announcement is going to deter these racist morons. England should walk off.

They should not have to walk off. Step 1 - Stadium Announcement, Step 2 - Players taken off, Step 3 - Match abandoned. Sadly UEFA chose to ignore their own rules and then ignored the continued chants. 

Sadly we still have an issue in our own game, and I bet UEFA will be looking to punish us in the next home game.

dyrewolfe wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:You'd be mad not to pick Rice, he's clearly the best English defensive midfielder.

I think Maguire is a little overrated too.

I'd be tempted to go Winks with him, but he barely plays. We may have to give up on a 10 type player in Maddison to cover the poor defence and functional midfield.

Sorry, but Rice is a complete pudding at international level...hopelessly out of his depth. Agree about Winks though...would be the preferred option, if he got any game time.

20 year old player who has two indifferent games for England - pudding. Jesus wept.

UEFA are not fit for purpose.

The Bulgarian manager, dear oh dear what a clown.

Indeed, doesn't know much about football tactics either by the looks of it.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:You'd be mad not to pick Rice, he's clearly the best English defensive midfielder.

I think Maguire is a little overrated too.

I'd be tempted to go Winks with him, but he barely plays. We may have to give up on a 10 type player in Maddison to cover the poor defence and functional midfield.

Sorry, but Rice is a complete pudding at international level...hopelessly out of his depth. Agree about Winks though...would be the preferred option, if he got any game time.

20 year old player who has two indifferent games for England - pudding. Jesus wept.

Did you not see what I did there? Rice...pudding...?

Oh well. Anyway, back on topic, Rice is just one of many players who are indifferent, or downright liabilities at the moment. So I guess its unfair to single any individual out. Even if he was star player material, he'd struggle to shine in this side.

Cornish Warrior wrote:UEFA are not fit for purpose.

Not unless they ban Bulgaria from the next World Cup and Euros. Never gonna happen though. You'd think they'd have realised by now that these pitiful fines do bugger all. Those racist idiots even made it clear they have no respect for UEFA (notice that shirt one of them held up?) or the suspension of play protocol.

Soul Requiem wrote:
The Bulgarian manager, dear oh dear what a clown.

Cornish Warrior wrote:
Indeed, doesn't know much about football tactics either by the looks of it.

That tells you all you need to know about the country. When the fans and manager turn a blind eye to blatant racist behaviour, you know there is nothing UEFA can do, short of banning them from tournaments. Seems to be endemic in the country's culture.

Remember a bunch of Eastern European countries started putting up fences, during the migrant crisis, to stop them even passing through (never mind settling)? Can't remember if Bulgaria was one of them, but there seems to be a definite intolerance of people of colour in that part of the world.



Aaaanyway. Enough ranting. Despite the good result, I'm afraid my opinion of England hasn't changed much from the Czech Republic game. Bulgaria were so poor, we may as well have been playing San Marino. Aside from the unpleasantness off the pitch, it was barely more than a practice match. Only the home side's thuggish tackling gave any clue it was a competitive game.

Was actually expecting a tougher game, based on past performances, but it was pretty clear it would be a walkover inside the first 30 minutes. England did what they needed to do, but barely had to get out of 2nd gear...and STILL spent too much time passing it side to side and back to the keeper.

LondonTiger wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I don’t think a PA announcement is going to deter these racist morons. England should walk off.

They should not have to walk off. Step 1 - Stadium Announcement, Step 2 - Players taken off, Step 3 - Match abandoned. Sadly UEFA chose to ignore their own rules and then ignored the continued chants. 

Sadly we still have an issue in our own game, and I bet UEFA will be looking to punish us in the next home game.

According to Tyrone Mings, the decision to continue to play was taken, following a discussion involving the entire team, manager & coaching staff. Which, to be honest, I think is sensible. If the players are happy to continue, they should be allowed to.

The only time officials should intervene and abandon a game, is if there is a serious safety / security risk e.g. stuff being thrown on the pitch, people running onto it etc.

As was said in a radio interview I heard this morning, abandoning games just because of racist chanting actually lets the racists win and disrupts tournaments. England would have been denied 3 points they were nailed on to get and there would be more pressure on them to win the remaining qualifiers.

England got Croatia (again zzzz), Czech Republic and possibly Serbia in their Euro Group

Could be worse, Portugal, Germany and France are in the same group

Should be a routine group with some familiar opponents and home advantage (I think?).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52746083

Could Sancho be the next Messi?

That's what we want to see, BBC, no overhyping at all!

Before the PL resumes, we've got the Nations League resuming. It's one tournament that could have been binned to ease fixture congestion, and no one would have cared too much!

Anyway, after reaching the semi-final last time out, England are in the highest League 'A' again. They've been drawn in Group 2 with Belgium, Denmark and Iceland. Same format as before, top team makes the semis, bottom team gets relegated to League 'B'. The semi-finals and final will be played in September/October next year - they were originally scheduled for next summer, but of course that's when Euro 2020 is now being played.

I suppose it can be seen as a good, competitive warm-up for Euro 2021, if nothing else. Better than a succession of dull friendlies. England start with away games to Iceland on Saturday and Denmark on Tuesday.

The England squad is thus, with a few new players getting a chance.

Goalkeepers: Dean Henderson, Jordan Pickford, Nick Pope

Defenders: Trent Alexander-Arnold, Conor Coady, Eric Dier, Joe Gomez, Michael Keane, Ainsley Maitland-Niles, Tyrone Mings, Kieran Trippier, Kyle Walker

Midfielders: Phil Foden, Mason Mount, Kalvin Phillips, Declan Rice, James Ward-Prowse, Jack Grealish

Forwards: Tammy Abraham, Mason Greenwood, Danny Ings, Harry Kane, Jadon Sancho, Raheem Sterling

Surely someone could've worked out flying players all across the world and back to their clubs to play an unnecessary tournament of glorified friendlies was a really stupid idea

Yes, I agree, but UEFA doesn't do common sense. They're currently forcing the Czechs to go through with their game against Scotland, even though the Czechs originally called it off as their squad has been hit with Covid.

Anyway, this afternoon's game. Should be a routine win for England with Iceland missing half their best team. Apparently Kyle Walker could be starting at left-back, with Foden and Sancho also expected to start.

England XI: Pickford, Walker, Gomez, Dier, Trippier, Ward-Prowse, Rice, Foden, Sterling, Sancho, Kane.

Maybe Trippier at left-back? Not sure about the value of Ward-Prowse starting.

Bizarre game.

Deserved, if laboured, win for England. Most players seemed to be lacking match sharpness, and Kane in particular looked horrendously off the pace. Poor officiating to deny England a perfectly legitimate goal in the first half, and both penalties looked questionable on first viewing. Walker's tackle was utterly brainless. Sterling was probably England's best player, so it was good that he got the actual winner. Iceland were utterly without ambition, even when England were down to 10, and can have no complaints about losing.

Duty281 wrote:Walker's tackle was utterly brainless

No surprise. He’s truly dreadful, and a total liability, defensively. TAA should have that position locked down.

Pretty woeful performance, all round.

Yes, agree with that. Walker shouldn't be near the first-choice squad, with Trent, Wan-Bissaka and Trippier who all should be ahead of him for the right-back role.

Belgians currently 1-0 up in Denmark.

Duty281 wrote:utterly brainless.

It’s not just, Kyle Walker. England youngsters Phil Foden and Mason Greenwood are to face disciplinary action after footage emerged of the pair allegedly bringing girls back to the team hotel in Iceland.

Embarrassing

Oh dear, that means they're both out of the Denmark game.