Warren Gatland announced as Lions coach

First topic message reminder :

Apparently, according to Ian McGeechan anyway Gatland has been given the job again.

I dont think Best will make this tour - he was awful on the last tour.

I don't know who it will be but I guarantee it will be a forward.

As much as I love AWJ I don't know if he'll make this tour as there are so many talented young locks around, especially in England.

Regardless of Gatland being coach, there will be fewer Welsh players in the Lions squad this time, simply because they are not as high up the international chain as they were last time; in the previous two seasons, they'd come exceedingly close to a WC final, and had won the two 6N championships, one a GS. This time, aside from a few decent performances in the RWC '15, Wales are some way off, particularly with the resurgence of England.

It would be naive to expect England's trajectory of improvement to continue at its current rate, but they will likely be there or thereabouts during the coming 6N and AI. With Scotland also seemingly in a golden position of having a genuinely competitive 15-23 for the first time for a while, and Ireland something of an unknown, if potent, quantity in a period of transition, it looks unlikely that  Wales- in a season where they will be without their head coach- can turn their form around so dramatically as to beocome as big a player as they were during the lead up to the last tour.

In short, Wales are not as good relative to the other European and SH countries now as they were four years ago. Their last genuinely world class performance, in my view, was against South Africa two Summers ago, where even then they grasped defeat from the jaws of victory (again). They've been treading water a little bit for a while, and whilst they can get away with it for Wales, that doesn't get you selected for the Lions.

There are several players who have the talent, or aptitude, to be Lions, but will need a few big performances in the big games to earn their place: namely, Samson Lee, AWJ, Biggar, Jon Davies.

There are several who stand a good or fair chance of going, but as they're not stand out names, they would need a very good season, no injury worries, and perhaps an injury or two to a player in their position from another country. They are: Ken Owens, Bradley Davies, Dan Lydiate, Justin Tipuric, Scott Williams, and at a push perhaps Gareth Davies.

Of those who are all but nailed on if fit, I would say there is only Rhys Webb, George North, Taulupe Faletau, and Sam Warburton.

Then there are a few anomalies. I would add Liam Williams to the nailed on list, as I'm sure many Welsh fans would, but he's not to Gatland's liking. He may well miss out, despite his genuine brilliance in several facets of play, because of Gatland's desire to play a certain way. On the flipside, Leigh Halfpenny is currently a bit of an unknown entity having missed a full season. I would say he doesn't look likely at this stage, purely because Liam Williams is the incumbent and he lacks fundamental things that Liam Williams excels at, however it may well be that Liam Williams is dropped, or pushed to the wing, for Halfpenny once the latter returns. The final anomaly would be Jamie Roberts. Perhaps this is too much of my personal bias coming into play, as I wouldn't have him starting for Wales, but I'm not sure if he will go. He could easily be the Test starter at 12 as it's Gatland selecting, yet equally- despite his pedigree, and all round demeanour as a good egg on tour- he could find himself left at home, such is the depth of varied choices he has to consider in the inside centre (or even second 5/8th) position.

Also, I cannot look past Warburton for captain. He's one of Wales's genuinely world class players, and despite his injury problems, and perhaps leadership deficiencies, if there's one thing Gatland likes, it's sticking with what has previously worked, and what he trusts. Warburton is all of those things. He's also one of the few players I think able to genuinely go toe to toe with NZ in terms of intensity and reading of the game, if perhaps not in footballing skill, in the NH, not just from Wales.

English rugby has always seemed a better fit for Gatland's preferred style of play. If they win the 6N, I don't think we have to worry too much about calls of Welsh bias. Or perhaps we will unless the squad is 75% English. I'm not going to hope to predict the views of 606.

I'd say the Welsh 9/10 were the two guaranteed Welsh names in the squad myself.

When was Biggar's last 'bad' game ?

What are Warburton's leadership deficiencies ? The refs love him, it why he was picked as Captain for the last tour.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

munkian wrote:Completely ignoring the fact that it was Faletau's turn over that got us back in control of that game..

Why is it always about the Welsh with some of you. It's the Lions.

It's always about the Welsh because evidently some English, Scottish and plenty of Irish are still bitter over the make-up of the team in the third test.

Don't think any of us Scots are bitter. We all know, deep down, that it was Richie Gray who won us the tour.

munkian wrote:I'd say the Welsh 9/10 were the two guaranteed Welsh names in the squad myself.

When was Biggar's last 'bad' game ?

What are Warburton's leadership deficiencies ? The refs love him, it why he was picked as Captain for the last tour.

Guaranteed in the touring squad, but I'm not sure about the XV. Which 9 anyway, Webb or Davies? I'd take both on tour.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup very. Good player but picked on rep not performance at the time or what was best for the team. Thought that 3rd test was a real step up. Led by Corbs and SOB. Pack really on top enabled us to win handsomely ignoring the fact that in midfield (avoiding it as it'll lead to a load of waffle) that Roberts was coming back from injuryand BOD outplayed Davies in the 1st and 2nd tests (return of the national combo sillyness).

Hmmmmm.... interesting, please read this:-

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/06/australia-lions-player-ratings

funnyExiledScot wrote:

munkian wrote:I'd say the Welsh 9/10 were the two guaranteed Welsh names in the squad myself.

When was Biggar's last 'bad' game ?

What are Warburton's leadership deficiencies ? The refs love him, it why he was picked as Captain for the last tour.

Guaranteed in the touring squad, but I'm not sure about the XV. Which 9 anyway, Webb or Davies? I'd take both on tour.

Webb for me - Davies is great athlete but not as good at 9, he can be as frustratingly slow as Phillips.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

munkian wrote:Completely ignoring the fact that it was Faletau's turn over that got us back in control of that game..

Why is it always about the Welsh with some of you. It's the Lions.

It's always about the Welsh because evidently some English, Scottish and plenty of Irish are still bitter over the make-up of the team in the third test.

Don't think any of us Scots are bitter. We all know, deep down, that it was Richie Gray who won us the tour.

Huge impact from the bench !

Leigh Halfpenny has to go on tour. He's the best player in Britain & Ireland, IMO.

Also, and I will say this now. I do not think we will be fortunate to lose anybody through injury. That really is a nasty thing to say.

munkian wrote:I'd say the Welsh 9/10 were the two guaranteed Welsh names in the squad myself.

When was Biggar's last 'bad' game ?

What are Warburton's leadership deficiencies ? The refs love him, it why he was picked as Captain for the last tour.

I thought Biggar had a pretty flat season after the World Cup, and reverted back to type for Wales by standing a bit too deep, and not getting the backs moving. Of course, his performance doesn't exist in isolation, the pack was also a bit flatter* in the 6N than during the WC, but he didn't maintain his level of performance as the season went on, let alone better it. As he is deficient anyway with regards to certain aspects of his game, most notably the footballing side of things, he's far from nailed on when you consider Ford is a far better footballer, Farrell more versatile and on the same level with regards to many of Biggar's qualities, Sexton has more pedigree and also a better distributor of ball in hand. He may well go, because he's probably the best tactical kicker of the lot, but at this stage, I'm talking only of Welsh players that are nailed on as it stands, and there are only four obvious ones for me. If you add Halfpenny into the equation as a goal-kicker, his case becomes even weaker.

Warburton clearly isn't the greatest team tactician, nor the most vocal leader. His selection as captain was made very much with the view of him growing into the role, which he has done and continues to do so. He's more reliant on lieutenants like AWJ, Gethin Jenkins, and BOD and POC for the Lions, than a traditional captain or leader, particularly for a forward. He leads by example with regards to his sheer desire to leave everything out on the field, hence the frequency of his injuries, and I think his apparently incredible levels of dedication to his job must rub off on his team mates. Yet for all that, there are evidently weaknesses to his leadership on the field, weaknesses that can certainly be mitigated by clever selection, but they are there nonetheless.

*flatter in the sense of less 'in your face', rather than flat to the gainline

Leigh Halfpenny has to go on tour. He's the best player in Britain & Ireland, IMO.

international198 wrote:Leigh Halfpenny has to go on tour. He's the best player in Britain & Ireland, IMO.

So good you posted twice.



Could be hard to gain Lions selection if Wales ignore him as you demanded on another thread.

munkian wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

munkian wrote:Completely ignoring the fact that it was Faletau's turn over that got us back in control of that game..

Why is it always about the Welsh with some of you. It's the Lions.

It's always about the Welsh because evidently some English, Scottish and plenty of Irish are still bitter over the make-up of the team in the third test.

Don't think any of us Scots are bitter. We all know, deep down, that it was Richie Gray who won us the tour.

Huge impact from the bench !

Damn right. Game changer. Colossus. World Class.

LondonTiger wrote:Could be hard to gain Lions selection if Wales ignore him as you demanded on another thread.

I've changed my mind. I don't want Wales to ignore him. I want Wales to select him at fullback against Australia on November 5th 2016, against Argentina on November 12th 2016, against Japan on November 19th 2016 and against South Africa on November 26th 2016.

munkian wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

munkian wrote:I'd say the Welsh 9/10 were the two guaranteed Welsh names in the squad myself.

When was Biggar's last 'bad' game ?

What are Warburton's leadership deficiencies ? The refs love him, it why he was picked as Captain for the last tour.

Guaranteed in the touring squad, but I'm not sure about the XV. Which 9 anyway, Webb or Davies? I'd take both on tour.

Webb for me - Davies is great athlete but not as good at 9, he can be as frustratingly slow as Phillips.

I'd agree. Webb is the cleverer and slicker of the two, albeit Davies at his best is pure box office breaking from the back of the scrum/ruck. It's a position I think Wales have nailed down, with the third scrum half spot being contested between Murray, Laidlaw and Youngs (I'd go with Murray).

funnyExiledScot wrote:

munkian wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

munkian wrote:I'd say the Welsh 9/10 were the two guaranteed Welsh names in the squad myself.

When was Biggar's last 'bad' game ?

What are Warburton's leadership deficiencies ? The refs love him, it why he was picked as Captain for the last tour.

Guaranteed in the touring squad, but I'm not sure about the XV. Which 9 anyway, Webb or Davies? I'd take both on tour.

Webb for me - Davies is great athlete but not as good at 9, he can be as frustratingly slow as Phillips.

I'd agree. Webb is the cleverer and slicker of the two, albeit Davies at his best is pure box office breaking from the back of the scrum/ruck. It's a position I think Wales have nailed down, with the third scrum half spot being contested between Murray, Laidlaw and Youngs (I'd go with Murray).

Whilst I would agree with you 12-9 months ago, this is no longer the case. Gareth Davies really dropped off towards the end of the season, for both the Scarlets and Wales, and whereas at one point it was questionable whether Webb would reclaim the starting shirt once fit, now there's little doubt. Gareth Davies has put in too many performances that have lacked in leadersip, rugby intelligence, and at its most basic level, the awareness of being in a team. Far too frequently his decision with what to do with the ball, or where to direct the pack (or not as the case may be), seems to show a serious lack of sympathy and understanding of what is the best thing to do to help out or create opportunities that benefit his teammates, namely the pack and the outside half.

The good news is, I think in part it's his discomfort with suddenly being thrust into a position of significant leadership, in a position that- in the modern game- is effectively the general and the coach on the field of play. That can all be overcome with experience and game time, until he no longer feels the need to simply play 'instinctively', i.e. scoring incredible 60 yard tries relying on his pace and swerve. The bad news is, to be selected for the Lions, time is against him. Furthermore, unless Webb gets injured, he won't get too much game time for Wales, meaning his time in the shop window is relatively small. That's fine for doing the flash stuff, but we all know he can do that: it's controlling a game, and making the right decision time after time, where he needs to prove himself.

I'm not ruling him out, but he's a long way from being second choice at this stage. Hopefully he has a great season for club and country and makes it.

munkian wrote:I think 7 1/2 is possibly too young for pop corn...

Problems start when people see the issues some have with Gatland last time as a dig at a Welsh Johnny-Five refuse to debate anything as we won and resort to insults.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup very. Good player but picked on rep not performance at the time or what was best for the team. Thought that 3rd test was a real step up. Led by Corbs and SOB. Pack really on top enabled us to win handsomely ignoring the fact that in midfield (avoiding it as it'll lead to a load of waffle) that Roberts was coming back from injuryand BOD outplayed Davies in the 1st and 2nd tests (return of the national combo sillyness).

Hmmmmm.... interesting, please read this:-

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/06/australia-lions-player-ratings

Yup, have done. And?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:It's the right appointment. Who he selects as his assistants will be crucial though, as will be the tour strategy (i.e. number of players selected, back-up player contingencies and game plan).

This is the toughest of all the tours by a country mile, and NZ are in outstanding form.

Yes. Views on assistants will vary wildly but I would love to see Cotter as forwards coach, Gustard as defence coach and my wife as attack coach.

She likes a good attack.

Cotter, Gustard and Schmidt would be a dream team for my money - no offence to your wife. Not sure they'd sign-up though.

Schmidt thankfully ruled himself

LordDowlais wrote:Also, and I will say this now. I do not think we will be fortunate to lose anybody through injury. That really is a nasty thing to say.

Why? Even at the time it was seen as a blessing in disguise.

Not by , y'know, actual rugby fans

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup very. Good player but picked on rep not performance at the time or what was best for the team. Thought that 3rd test was a real step up. Led by Corbs and SOB. Pack really on top enabled us to win handsomely ignoring the fact that in midfield (avoiding it as it'll lead to a load of waffle) that Roberts was coming back from injuryand BOD outplayed Davies in the 1st and 2nd tests (return of the national combo sillyness).

Hmmmmm.... interesting, please read this:-

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/06/australia-lions-player-ratings

Yup, have done. And?

It does not put SOB as the stand out player that led the Lions to victory.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Also, and I will say this now. I do not think we will be fortunate to lose anybody through injury. That really is a nasty thing to say.

Why? Even at the time it was seen as a blessing in disguise.

What kind of sicko see's a person's misfortune as a whole nations fortune ? I would not see any players injury as fortunate, to anyone.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup very. Good player but picked on rep not performance at the time or what was best for the team. Thought that 3rd test was a real step up. Led by Corbs and SOB. Pack really on top enabled us to win handsomely ignoring the fact that in midfield (avoiding it as it'll lead to a load of waffle) that Roberts was coming back from injuryand BOD outplayed Davies in the 1st and 2nd tests (return of the national combo sillyness).

Hmmmmm.... interesting, please read this:-

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/06/australia-lions-player-ratings

Yup, have done. And?

It does not put SOB as the stand out player that led the Lions to victory.

And?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Also, and I will say this now. I do not think we will be fortunate to lose anybody through injury. That really is a nasty thing to say.

Why? Even at the time it was seen as a blessing in disguise.

What kind of sicko see's a person's misfortune as a whole nations fortune ? I would not see any players injury as fortunate, to anyone.

In relation to the 3rd test it was fortunnate as it had become obvious he was undroppable. Without that its doubtful we would have seen the change.

munkian wrote:Not by , y'know, actual rugby fans

Really? I think there were a fair few wanting to see him dropped which wasn't going to happen.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup very. Good player but picked on rep not performance at the time or what was best for the team. Thought that 3rd test was a real step up. Led by Corbs and SOB. Pack really on top enabled us to win handsomely ignoring the fact that in midfield (avoiding it as it'll lead to a load of waffle) that Roberts was coming back from injuryand BOD outplayed Davies in the 1st and 2nd tests (return of the national combo sillyness).

Hmmmmm.... interesting, please read this:-

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/06/australia-lions-player-ratings

Yup, have done. And?

It does not put SOB as the stand out player that led the Lions to victory.

And?

AND, you said he was.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Also, and I will say this now. I do not think we will be fortunate to lose anybody through injury. That really is a nasty thing to say.

Why? Even at the time it was seen as a blessing in disguise.

What kind of sicko see's a person's misfortune as a whole nations fortune ? I would not see any players injury as fortunate, to anyone.

In relation to the 3rd test it was fortunnate as it had become obvious he was undroppable. Without that its doubtful we would have seen the change.

What difference would have dropping Warburton or not have made ? SOB was not the sole reason why 10/11 Welsh players, along with a few other put 41pts on Australia.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup very. Good player but picked on rep not performance at the time or what was best for the team. Thought that 3rd test was a real step up. Led by Corbs and SOB. Pack really on top enabled us to win handsomely ignoring the fact that in midfield (avoiding it as it'll lead to a load of waffle) that Roberts was coming back from injuryand BOD outplayed Davies in the 1st and 2nd tests (return of the national combo sillyness).

Hmmmmm.... interesting, please read this:-

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/06/australia-lions-player-ratings

Yup, have done. And?

It does not put SOB as the stand out player that led the Lions to victory.

And?

AND, you said he was.

Ah ok. You always agree with Guardian ratings then, I obviously don't.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Also, and I will say this now. I do not think we will be fortunate to lose anybody through injury. That really is a nasty thing to say.

Why? Even at the time it was seen as a blessing in disguise.

What kind of sicko see's a person's misfortune as a whole nations fortune ? I would not see any players injury as fortunate, to anyone.

In relation to the 3rd test it was fortunnate as it had become obvious he was undroppable. Without that its doubtful we would have seen the change.

What difference would have dropping Warburton or not have made ? SOB was not the sole reason why 10/11 Welsh players, along with a few other put 41pts on Australia.

Just small incremental gains.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just small incremental gains.

Which, for you, sounds like, less Welsh, no matter what their ability is. I knew we would get your true colours sooner or later.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just small incremental gains.

Which, for you, sounds like, less Welsh, no matter what their ability is. I knew we would get your true colours sooner or later.

Well we're talking Lions which means they're all top players and we don't have to only pick certain ones as theres a massive drop in quality or limit ourselves to one style of play as we don't have options. I felt we did limit ourselves last time out ignored form in a few places to the cost of the team. Last time I checked Hibbard was Welsh but ignore points made and focus on anti Welsh fog.

I wouldn't be so sure...

Conor Murray replacing the woeful Philips turned the game imo. The midfield finally had decent quick ball which eventually led to the Lions running away with it.
Gatland was the stand out coach then, this time I think its more to do with who didn't want the gig but good luck to him. he knows what the Lions ethos is all about.
I wonder who his coaches will be?

Did any one think it would be any body else but Gatland?

It all depends on the players that he selects for the Lions. "Form players" over favourite players.

What will the game plan be? His plan worked last time( not selecting Bod) and selecting Davies instead. But was that more luck the judgement? I guess it is a wait and see game.

majesticimperialman wrote:Did any one think it would be any body else but Gatland?

It all depends on the players that he selects for the Lions. "Form players" over favourite players.

What will the game plan be? His plan worked last time( not selecting Bod) and selecting Davies instead. But was that more luck the judgement? I guess it is a wait and see game.

It was more that was the worst performing Australian team we've seen and the Lions still just barely beat them. I think just beating the Maori will be a good result after seeing what they did to Wales. NZ are once again looking imperious, even with them blooding new players.

None of the current country captains look like an obvious choice, though Gatland will probably go with Warburton again.

Personally, I think the best candidate could well be Itoje. If you're looking for a test match animal, I can't think of a current player who better exemplifies the breed.

Do we want Itoje to go? He's in a winning environment at the mo, I don't know what sort of environment Gatland builds but it ain't that.

I'd be very surprised if he isn't deemed good enough for a starting place next summer. Don't give a stuff about a 'winning environment'.

yappysnap wrote:Do we want Itoje to go? He's in a winning environment at the mo, I don't know what sort of environment Gatland builds but it ain't that.

I don't think "we" get a choice. Eddie's clear that he wants to see a lot of English players selected, and if Itoje maintains his form it would be almost wilfully daft not to select him. Oh, hang on a minute...

should Maro still have his unbeaten streak goinghe will almost certainly play, perhaps surrounded by:

Halfpenny, Liam Williams, Davies, Roberts, North, biggar, Webb, Faletau, Warburton, Lydiate, AWJ, Lee, Owens & Jenkins

Breadvan wrote:Conor Murray replacing the woeful Philips turned the game imo. The midfield finally had decent quick ball which eventually led to the Lions running away with it.
Gatland was the stand out coach then, this time I think its more to do with who didn't want the gig but good luck to him. he knows what the Lions ethos is all about.
I wonder who his coaches will be?

Phillips who setup the first try ? Woeful is a little harsh. It was Faletau's turnover that led to our comeback in the 2nd half - the resulting try broke the Aussie back.

yappysnap wrote:Do we want Itoje to go? He's in a winning environment at the mo, I don't know what sort of environment Gatland builds but it ain't that.

His 6 Nations and Lions record says otherwise but I'm sure you know more than the Lions board.

Least surprising announcement since my Southern Rail train delay.
Was there another realistic option?

I dont really see Cole as a Capatin, hes a very quiet "get on with his own job" kind of guy, and certainly not media friendly. A big part of being tour Captain is being the face, and whilst Gatland is good at taking the brunt of the media ( by being such a troll himself) I just dont see someone like Cole being comfortable with it at all.

Hartley would be a good option, his temprament hasnt been an issue so far during his capatiancy for England and hes always going to be amongst the favourites to start in his own position. No problems balancing a backrow etc with him in. The real thing for me is that you'd have two Kiwis as the leadership, and two who have an almost Austrlian like love of getting under the oppositions skins...it will genuinely annoy people to see the Lions led by "traitors". The jibes will come in thick and fast and the NZ Herald will go into meltdown over it, Hartley and Gatland are the sort of charatchers who will enjoy the attention and being boo boys.

The only other option is Warburton who has done the job well previously and has bags of capataincy experience. The major issue there being in many peoples eyes hes not even the best in his position for Wales, and would struggle to make many peoples 23 let alone 15 for the Lions. Theres trust and a strong working relationship there too, and it could also help stop what may be and England player heavy side feel cliquey.
Part of the desicion may come down to how Gatland wants to balance his backrow and whether he wants to go with Englands model of having people run around smashing into the opposition or have players who try and pick the ball up.

Having different players avaialble who are capable of playing a different style may just tempt Gatland to deviate from Walesball.

Poor choice for the Lions and Wales.

TightHEAD wrote:Poor choice for the Lions and Wales.

Who would your choice be ?

I wouldn't go, its an outdated format that destroys players.

TightHEAD wrote:I wouldn't go, its an outdated format that destroys players.

So why do you care who their coach is ?

Because when the England players get back they will be battered and bruised, and it will be for nothing if Gatland is in charge as his game plan and tactics don't work against SH opposition.