Rugby Championship week 1

First topic message reminder :

Couldn't see a thread for this so thought I'd stick one up

Date: Saturday, August 20
Venue: ANZ Stadium, Sydney
Kick-off: 20:05 local (10:05 GMT)
Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant Referees: Romain Poite (France), Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

Australia: 15 Israel Folau, 14 Adam Ashley-Cooper, 13 Tevita Kuridrani, 12 Matt Giteau, 11 Dane Haylett-Petty, 10 Bernard Foley, 9 Will Genia, 8 David Pocock, 7 Michael Hooper, 6 Ben McCalman, 5 Rob Simmons, 4 Kane Douglas, 3 Sekope Kepu, 2 Stephen Moore, 1 Scott Sio
Replacements: 16 Tatafu Polota-Nau, 17 James Slipper, 18 Allan Alaalatoa, 19 Dean Mumm, 20 Scott Fardy, 21 Nick Phipps, 22 Matt Toomua, 23 Rob Horne

New Zealand: 15 Israel Dagg, 14 Ben Smith, 13 Malakai Fekitoa, 12 Ryan Crotty, 11 Waisake Naholo, 10 Beauden Barrett, 9 Aaron Smith, 8 Kieran Read (c), 7 Sam Cane, 6 Jerome Kaino, 5 Sam Whitelock, 4 Brodie Retallick, 3 Owen Franks, 2 Codie Taylor, 1 Wyatt Crockett
Replacements: 16 Dane Coles, 17 Kane Hames, 18 Charlie Faumuina, 19 Liam Squire, 20 Ardie Savea, 21 TJ Perenara, 22 Aaron Cruden, 23 Julian Savea


Date: Saturday, August 20
Venue: Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
Kick-off: 17:05 local (15:05 GMT)
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant Referees: Jérôme Garcès (France), Ben O’Keeffe (New Zealand)
TMO: George Ayoub (Australia)

South Africa: 15 Johan Goosen, 14 Ruan Combrinck, 13 Lionel Mapoe, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Elton Jantjies, Faf de Klerk, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Teboho Mohoje, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Julian Redelinghuys, 2 Adriaan Strauss (c) , Tendai Mtawarira.
Replacements: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 20 Jaco Kriel, 21 Rudy Paige, 22 Juan de Jongh, 23 Jesse Kriel.

Argentina: 15 Joaquín Tuculet, 14 Santiago Cordero, 13 Matías Orlando, 12 Juan Martín Hernández, 11 Manuel Montero, 10 Nicolás Sánchez, 9 Martín Landajo, 8 Facundo Isa, 7 Juan Manuel Leguizamon, 6 Pablo Matera, 5 Tomas Lavanini, 4 Matías Alemanno, 3 Ramiro Herrera, 2 Agustín Creevy, 1 Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro.
Replacements: 16 Julián Montoya, 17 Felipe Arregui, 18 Enrique Pieretto, 19 Guido Petti, 20 Javier Ortega Desio, 21 Tomás Cubelli, 22 Santiago Gonzalez Iglesias, 23 Ramiro Moyano.

It isn't just one game, though. Australia lost an entire test series to England and lost one game badly to the All Blacks. It is certainly an unusual position for a team as great as Australia to be in.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It isn't just one game, though. Australia lost an entire test series to England and lost one game badly to the All Blacks. It is certainly an unusual position for a team as great as Australia to be in.

Accepted there are genuine directions in travel between the two teams; NZ up and Ozy down. However, and as I said before I haven't seen the game yet, it does appear that there is more a foot in this performance which I suspect places the result outside of the predicted curve, and so my caution is therefore not to read beyond that.

Selection, performance, injury were all poor for Ozy, but each can be improved upon in a short period of time. And so I suspect we would then see a return to the expected trend.

I am not expecting Ozy to win, though a dead cat bounce is not unheard of, more that I expect they will improve.

Just about everything which could go wrong for the Wallabies did go wrong at the weekend.

Genia was an improvement at scrum half but Foley looked frail again. It didn't help that Giteau went off so early, since he was supposed to bring some midfield game management. Almost all their exit plays went straight to NZ players in space.

kingelderfield wrote:Haven't seen the game yet, however that's not gonna stop me.....

But seriously, congratulations to the NZ All Blacks and commiserations etc. to Ozy.

Just a finger in the air, and I'm in no way ignoring accepted trends and norms here, but I think a note of caution should be given to the 'one off' nature of this game which by its score line alone reminds me of the last time we slaughtered those nasty men in black , which in itself was nothing more than an indication of the game on the day and not a harbinger of english world domination (for that is only gestating now - does this forum allow two emoticons in one post?)

It would be "Two off" wouldnt it? the same two teams play each other seven days apart.

What was most pleasing from your perspective, Laurie? I've heard a lot of good things about Cane's performance, since he was under pressure from Savea for his place, but I find it hard to look beyond the joy of seeing Barrett in his pomp.

England has some handy locks at the moment but Whitelock and Retallick reminded me that they are still setting the pace in that position.

boomeranga wrote:

Allty wrote:The hotel bugging seems to have worked.........

Lucky we bugged them.  It could of gotten messy otherwise.

Boomer, you're going to have to look seriously at the employment contracts of agents 86 and 99....

Rugby Fan wrote:What was most pleasing from your perspective, Laurie? I've heard a lot of good things about Cane's performance, since he was under pressure from Savea for his place, but I find it hard to look beyond the joy of seeing Barrett in his pomp.

England has some handy locks at the moment but Whitelock and Retallick reminded me that they are still setting the pace in that position.

to me RF several things.

Lineout ball was paramount, ABs won ball at the back of the lineout which they would never win against most top ranked countries, those lioneout wins at 6 & 7 are the best quality lineout ball you can win as it stretchs the defensive before it can react. the moment Cheika put both Cooper and Hooper out there together Hansen/Read/Kaino knew what they going to do. Cane as the "third" openside on the field looked better because as he wasnt chasing his arzz all day, he didnt have to go for dangerous turnovers, dangerous as in putting yourself at the risk of those breakdown penalties. Cane just had to tackle all day slide the Wallaby backline towards the touchlines and it wouldnt be long  before they ran out of options and ended up kicking the ball to Beaudie and Ben.

There are times  I wonder  whether kaino in defense makes Cane look good as well, kaino starts a game  looking after his traditional blind and channels, then
relieves cane of duties in the centre of the field. Dont be surprised if Sarvea starts next week, his home ground and the ABs need to up the obligation of the opposition having to defend around, and in behind the sides of the ruck and Savea will do that, Cane doesnt.

I was further impressed with the mind games at hooker, here we had the Australian captain see his opposite (hooker) go off injured after two minutes. only to be replaced by a man who 48 hours before the game wasnt even going to have any involvement at all in the game, come on with a jersey full of tender ribs, play right through to the 80th minute, score a try. Meanwhile Moore went off at the usual 60 th minute leaving his team without their skipper and in dissaray. for  World Rugby's "Coach of the year" this  issue is more than overdue,  Hansen (and Eddie) knows it.....this is why we love the game.

 At  half back, with Barrett bringing so many attack options, Aaron Smiths role has become much simpler, which has left him to only have  to concentrate on fast flat ball to his 5/8th, and that delivery is improving in quality and speed because he doesnt have to think, even compared to a year ago when he was in combination with Carter his role was far more involved. this guy is a very good half back, he's a lot better than a lot of other previous half backs we've had.

Just a couple off the top of me head.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:Haven't seen the game yet, however that's not gonna stop me.....

But seriously, congratulations to the NZ All Blacks and commiserations etc. to Ozy.

Just a finger in the air, and I'm in no way ignoring accepted trends and norms here, but I think a note of caution should be given to the 'one off' nature of this game which by its score line alone reminds me of the last time we slaughtered those nasty men in black , which in itself was nothing more than an indication of the game on the day and not a harbinger of english world domination (for that is only gestating now - does this forum allow two emoticons in one post?)

It would be "Two off" wouldnt it? the same two teams play each other seven days apart.

And yet the 'one off' facet is really the point I am making.

Look we all know Ozy are in a dunny right now, but let's see how they come out before I give you any satisfaction. AB's by 10 to 15 - but what odd's on an Ozy win? Meow!

Currently on the New Zealand TAB head to head Australia is paying $7.10. New Zealand $1.09.

Possibly the worst performance from an Aussie team I've seen, under powered and a shocking lack of skill. NZ had power and skill everywhere and probably should have had a couple more tries. Nothing particularly clever about what NZ do - it's just basic rugby done very well. Cheika's not getting it right and there's something wrong mentally when a team misses 31 tackles.

I thought Argentina missed a sitter being 10 points up with 11 minutes left. Lack of composure let SA back in. Far from convinced by SA and will be interesting to see what happens next week.

Wish Nz were playing England this Autumn, would have been quite a reality check.

munkian wrote:Wish Nz were playing England this Autumn, would have been quite a reality check.

I know, it would stop these gloating Kiwi's infecting the board for a while

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

munkian wrote:Wish Nz were playing England this Autumn, would have been quite a reality check.

I know, it would stop these gloating Kiwi's infecting the board for a while

Wales would still have found a way to lose to that Aussie side too

Highlights for those who haven't yet seen the Blackness kick the Wallabies in the nuts:


Frightening consistency in both attacking and defensive accuracy.

To score so many turnovers with Pocock and Hooper on the pitch was a disaster for the Wallabies as that combination means that your lineout is weakened from the outset.

Gitau injured too. Anyone know how he is?

A Lot of places seem to think his International career is now over.

George Carlin wrote:Gitau injured too. Anyone know how he is?

He's out for the rest of the championship. Reports say a broken or fractured ankle. That would take a chunk out of the rest of the club season too.

He tried to stay on with strapping but too a knock almost immediately in the same place.

Boudjellal will not be happy.

Pot Hale wrote:Boudjellal will not be happy.  

ARU have already said that they had covered the insurance so that Toulon will be recompensed. If you add in the fact that Giteau agreed not to be paid by Toulon during the 4Ns , not too much for Mad Mouraj to be mad about.

How can you sign international players and expect them not to play international games ?

That's like moving next to a pub then moaning about the noise.

LondonTiger wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Boudjellal will not be happy.  

ARU have already said that they had covered the insurance so that Toulon will be recompensed. If you add in the fact that Giteau agreed not to be paid by Toulon during the 4Ns , not too much for Mad Mouraj to be mad about.

He'll still be angry. Toulon lost at the week-end, and Giteau is the glue for his team in the way Wilkinson used to be.

Drew Mitchell was on the Rugby Dungeon podcast recently, and he said it's surprising how poorly organized French teams are by modern standards. The best ones rely heavily on the professionalism of their elite players. Giteau currently sets a lot of the standards at Toulon, so he'll be missed.

This looked good too:

Have just caught up on the link below;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCmqxWSZ_IQ

A very curious game really with Oz completely unable to live with the athletic fluidity presented by the AB's.

I actually think this was a game that only these two sides would have played, though one side obviously is far more skilled and able to execute to the necessary level.

Oz were ridiculously respectful of the AB's and comprehensibly failed to compete with the required physical edge. Obviously their back row selections and injuries worked against them, but even so they were just going through the motions.

Mentally Oz looked and played like loses and will need to change their head space much as we had to after the Lancaster world cup.

Can Ozy change all this around in one week? I very much doubt it, however with better selections, a new captain and some attitude they should be able to deliver a far better performance.

After the Wales,England series the NZ/Aus team analysts would have got
to work.
With there midfield injuries and NZ not adding to the squad plus feedback
from Eng.Games I think Cheika`s thinking went something like this,mid
field combinations not right there yet.
Drop Folau to 15 to deal with expected kicking barrage,bring in experienced
players especially Giteau to improve decision making.
Kick to Naholo he may be vulnerable to the high ball,with to rookie hookers
play a specialist number 8 to improve lineout.scrum base etc.
Injuries first to Harris then Taylor then Giteau,followed by other aus backs
injuries ruined that.
NZ number 1 hooker on vulnerabilities in tight area resolved,the perceived
midfield weakness couldn't be attacked.
Australia actually started very well,Nz losing Crotty and Naholo mean`t
the re=jig but in last 4 games NZ have either scored or gone close after
the hooter.
Interesting replacements to squad all new boys as opposed to the tried
Hika Elliott,Stephen Donald,Cory jane all in good form.
IF Taylor and Crotty don`t start,Coles presumably will start McKenzie
Replace Ben Smith at Wing,Savea starting on the other.
Ben Smith moving to 13 and either Fekitoa to 12 or a Cruden/Barrett
10/12.

I used to be a fan of Moore but I think he has to go.

He can't last a game and his captaincy is terrible. He whines and gets in the ref's face in completely the wrong way. I was pleasantly surprised how superior Hartley was in this aspect during the summer tour.

Aussies look bereft of leadership all over the park though.

Not seen much from SA or Argentina to show that this championship won't be a complete stroll for NZ.

Yes not much tension regards the winning team. More interesting to see who props up the table. OZ are decimated by injuries and a lack of genuine ball carriers in the front 5 and a poor, and limiting, lineout (no back row jumpers on Saturday).
Neither the Boks or the Pumas are convincing propositions just now and both teams looked like the wheels could come off at any given moment.
With the Boks being unable to field their strongest team, for political reasons, combined with the unavailability of the Du Plessis brothers ( cant remember if they have retired or just having a sabbatical from int. games) and with a new coaching team in place, I think it will be a long hard season for the saffers. The NH teams who play them in the autumn should have a good shot at getting a win.

sensisball wrote: I think it will be a long hard season for the saffers. The NH teams who play them in the autumn should have a good shot at getting a win.

I would go further than that. Barring a bad run of injuries, I will be disappointed if England don't beat the Boks (and go 4 from 4 across the AIs) this autumn. We've been close the last few years, and in 2016 England's curve has been upward while South Africa's hasn't. Plus, it's about bloody time.

The key worry for England is that we'll be going into it without Haskell or a recognised international 7, and the strongest candidate (Underhill) won't be available to Eddie Jones. If he can crack that problem, I think we've got enough for everyone except the All Blacks...

I only seen the game between Nz v Aus on you tube. New Zealand shown why they are World Champions.

But in all honestly just how bad was Australia? Aus just seem to have no answer to the NZ attack.

How come Stephen Moore is still Aus captain? he never seems to play for the full eighty minutes just lately.

I know you can't help with injuries but Australia should have played better than they did.

How come Stephen Moore is still Aus captain?

We have a serious lack of options. Izzy is the only current player we have that could not be dropped or isn't leaving.

I think Cheika needs to be gutsy now and build a new team.  There are positions for which there are no options but we've others where there are. He'll need big Jatz but the team from the weekend didn't just have a bad day.

Surely it is time for Quade Cooper, Boomer?

I think he is where we will need to go George but big decision to go there this week. Kiwis are still weirdos about him. Might as well wait in my opinion.

Good thinking maybe against a mid field cobbled together from Super
Rugby.
AS an AB supporter you expect any starter to have the basic skills
from childhood,fitness to go 80 plus minutes.
Also that the conveyor belt will keep churning out good players.
BUT injuries are worst since 2009 and attrition levels are near
crisis levels.
Stand by for JORDIE BARRETTS debut the BEST Barrett brother!!

Last weekend seems to have sparked an existential crisis in Southern Hemisphere rugby.

Australia depends on a successful Wallaby side to maintain interest in the code. However, success for them means winning, or at least competing deep, at World Cups; as well as staying competitive, and trading wins with, NZ and South Africa.

The economics of the ARU are not structured to deal with a team which gets regularly beaten by NZ, and can't be certain of deserving a place as a top 3 or even top 4 side.

South Africa aren't feeling much better. There are concerns about quotas, coaching, player exodus and super rugby over-expansion.

The last point about Super Rugby has been brought into particular focus this year. A big selling point for the Tri-Nations/Rugby Championship and Super Rugby competitions is that they represent the best of rugby.

The last World Cup seemed like a triumph for the Rugby Championship teams but Australia, South Africa and Argentina all dropped Tests to England, Ireland & France in summer, which suggested it might be premature to write-off the northern hemisphere. On top of that, Super Rugby had some great games but there were blow-outs too, and not the same consistent high standard of old.

emack2 wrote:Good thinking maybe against a mid field cobbled together from Super
Rugby.
AS an AB supporter you expect any starter to have the basic skills
from childhood,fitness to go 80 plus minutes.
Also that the conveyor belt will keep churning out good players.
BUT injuries are worst since 2009 and attrition levels are near
crisis levels.
Stand by for JORDIE BARRETTS debut the BEST Barrett brother!!

You joking? Jordie will be another good'un but nobody in world rugby comes close to BB right now, yep even his own kin.

Just re-watching the first half Ozy vs AB and actually I don't think we're giving the AB's enough credit.

Ozy kicked the ball down their necks and throw poorly at the lineout, plus both sides struggled with injuries, however within this context the AB's delivered an exceptional performance.

Makes Saturday's games(s) very interesting.

Enjoy your rugby!

Jesus Oz are bad. That must be some kind of record for missed tackles between two tier 1 nations as well.

yappysnap wrote:Jesus Oz are bad. That must be some kind of record for missed tackles between two tier 1 nations as well.

Mate, I am cringing as I type this, but does that put England's sweep of the Wallabies in a different light? Please say no.

3 nil against an Aus on a downward spiral is a good result. Maybe if it was 2-1 some questions could be asked, so for now I'd relax. SA look there for the taking too, but they'll probably be a lot better by the time they tour up north.

For some years now I’ve thought Aus have been a bit over-rated – they’re the only SH big 3 team I actually always expect England to beat (even when we don’t). The year up to the last RWC (& the competition itself) put a bit of a spanner in my theory. But they have since reverted to fairly mediocre (by their standards). As for a reality check for England, well you can only beat what’s in front of you and a 3 game series white-wash in Aus is still pretty good. But for England to confidently claim ‘2nd best’ ranking then they really need to start beating SA. It does appear that Aus & SA are not on top of their game at the moment, so there’s all to play for. The ABs would be a pipe-dream currently.

I think they had 40 missed tackles against NZ. And their lineout was shoite.

31 missed tackles I think, crazy numbers.

No you're right, 40 tackles missed and 22 knock ons!!!!

Haylett-Petty, Foley, Pocock and Mccalman all missed 4 tackles.

The much maligned Kuridrani made 17 missed 0

Poorfour wrote:

sensisball wrote: I think it will be a long hard season for the saffers. The NH teams who play them in the autumn should have a good shot at getting a win.

I would go further than that. Barring a bad run of injuries, I will be disappointed if England don't beat the Boks (and go 4 from 4 across the AIs) this autumn. We've been close the last few years, and in 2016 England's curve has been upward while South Africa's hasn't. Plus, it's about bloody time.

The key worry for England is that we'll be going into it without Haskell or a recognised international 7, and the strongest candidate (Underhill) won't be available to Eddie Jones. If he can crack that problem, I think we've got enough for everyone except the All Blacks...

We do play them first up, so they should benefit from their RC familiarity, where as we'll be coming in relatively cold.

No doubt we're improved and will be keen as to continue our development, and yes I am expecting a home win, however if they've settled as a coaching panel, then they will provide a huge challenge with their abundant playing talents.

Daft as I am, its another game I'm really looking forward to.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who gave thought to the 'Piper prism', where we all need to consider last Saturdays game through the decisions of this particular ref.

Please don't think in anyway I'm suggesting...............though he did make his usual number of interesting calls.

And to continue the theme........its the 'Poite prism' for this weekend and he always likes.......

The mood in Australia remains dark. Former Wallaby Clyde Rathbone even went as far as to say the Wallabies need to stop talking up their chances and go in with the more realistic mindset that the All Blacks are heavily favoured.

http://www.rugby.com.au/news/2016/08/24/23/53/rathbone-bruce-lee

Some think Rathbone believes the Wallabies should accept they are going to lose but he's not saying they have no chance. That would be odd given how recently Japan beat South Africa. Still, Cheika was annoyed by his negativity.

Quade Cooper's recall is generally welcome, but there's less support for Foley's shift to inside centre. The New Zealand crowd will likely be on Cooper's case, and he has usually fared better with a hard running player outside him.

Slightly surprised no-one in Australia appears to have noted that the dual fly-half midfield is the same strategy England used against them.

In the end, though, the forwards were outclassed last week, so it'll be up to the front five to give Australia a better platform.

The 10/12 configuration is the classic NZ five eight system dating back
to the 2-3-2 scrum.
Often adopted by Australia and there coaches especially with a left/right
kicking option.
Adopt the NZ model you lose use it as an incentive to reverse the result
when next you meet.
Whats the weather forecast? if its Wet it could get very ugly NZ love
mudlarks.

yappysnap wrote:Haylett-Petty, Foley, Pocock and Mccalman all missed 4 tackles.

The much maligned Kuridrani made 17 missed 0

I think he knocked on the 22 times though. Awful hands for a back

yea crazy for a pro player to have such poor basic skills

Just watching the sky coverage showing the coaches live interviews.

I can't remember seeing Hansen so relaxed.

The contrast with Cheika was understandably telling. Very defensive.

Men in gold looking a bit more competitive, however still making a lot of errors.