The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

First topic message reminder :

It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.

Oh and this little lie:

Hero wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Cassius Zhi wrote:

Exactly. So in the space of about 5 posts we've established that Turkey should never have been a referendum issue

Nah, that was your issue  Mine was trying to disrupt the idea that Turkey is an ideal solution for providing a safety buffer zone for Europe.  If it was part of the referendum argument then so be it - I personally didn't hear much about it myself and I doubt many of the Leave voters gave Turkey much thought.

The Leave campaign though were quite happy to peddle this:

Well they had a right to peddle as fast as their opponents in the general debate, Hero. I'm all for Peddling. We all do it.

Going over their campaign with a fine tooth comb will only expose that they were peddling one way and the Remain camp were peddling another.

Hero wrote:Oh and this little lie:

Are you saying the Britain Stronger in Europe and/or Labour In for Britain never lied?

We all peddle. That though like the NHS funding is yet another complete and utter lie that was sent to every home in the UK as pet of the Leave campaign propaganda.

Ent wrote:Decisions about the U.K. are taken in he uk.

All a crock of Poopie this.

Agree, it's romantic naivity.

To be fair, all that says is they're joining the EU. I get the inference but such political half truths are hardly a new concept.

GSC wrote:To be fair, all that says is they're joining the EU. I get the inference but such political half truths are hardly a new concept.

Again this defence of it being a 'half truth'
It is not a half truth. It is a lie.

Hero wrote:

GSC wrote:To be fair, all that says is they're joining the EU. I get the inference but such political half truths are hardly a new concept.

Again this defence of it being a 'half truth'
It is not a half truth. It is a lie.

Are you saying Britain Stronger in Europe and/or Labour In for Britain never lied?

Hero wrote:The only hard evidence is by generalising based upon the results and the demographics of the town/cities that those people live in.
Such as only 1 of the top 35 for % of residents with degrees voted Leave.

Wish people would stop associating educational prowess with intelligence...

It is isn't the same thing...

Sorry Duty I'll just ignore your points like you do whenever truths you can't answer are put in front of you, either that or divert them back on the other foot.
If you wish to find some of the Remain propaganda and tear it to shreds be my guest, Remain though didn't win, if there are lies etc then it amounts to nothing. Leave though did lie and won as a result of those lies.

Are they not joining the EU, it doesn't say when. Such half truths are pretty common propaganda in Westminster

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Hero wrote:The only hard evidence is by generalising based upon the results and the demographics of the town/cities that those people live in.
Such as only 1 of the top 35 for % of residents with degrees voted Leave.

Wish people would stop associating educational prowess with intelligence...

It is isn't the same thing...

Where is it associating that in any of my comment? You associated it, not me.

GSC wrote:Are they not joining the EU, it doesn't say when. Such half truths are pretty common propaganda in Westminster

That's about as much a half truth as saying if you vote Leave then you'll die.
Which is actually more of a truth because at some point in the future it will happen. On current speed of Turkey abiding by the rules set it'll be 350 years before entry.

The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

Don't bother Hero, he's uneducated..

I never ignore points, I am always happy to answer if someone questions what I say or put forward.

My point here is - both official campaigns lied. I frequently criticised Vote Leave on this forum, time and again. I'm trying to understand why you're so angry at Vote Leave's lies, but don't have the same anger at lies by Britain Stronger in Europe* and Labour In for Britain.

It sounds like you would have been fine with it had Remain won.

*There very campaign name was a lie, saying the EU and Europe were interchangeable terms.

pedro wrote:Don't bother Hero, he's uneducated..

But not ignorant..

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

I believe Turkey and the EU are having talks again this week - not too sure if Turkey still want to join!

Duty281 wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

I believe Turkey and the EU are having talks again this week - not too sure if Turkey still want to join!

When the recession hits you might not be so smug Duty..

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

No there's a clear difference.
I said 1 in 35 towns that have the highest number of residents with degrees voted Leave.

That is true, there is evidence to prove it.

The Leave campaign said Turkey is joining the EU.

That is incorrect, there is evidence to prove it.

pedro wrote:

Ent wrote:Decisions about the U.K. are taken in he uk.

All a crock of Poopie this.

Agree, it's romantic naivity.

But a Principle nonetheless.  People vote with their emotions every bit as much as some try to pretend it's always ever only with a calculator and a ton of party manifestos.

Call it Romantic slush - but it's still a reason why some put an 'X' in the Leave box.  And the power of that romantic 'X' at the polling station - well, we all know that's 100% real.

If both sides could be criticised for the style of their campaigns, one of those criticisms might be that both didn't use the power of romantic notions when trying to appeal to voters that were bored to tears with the economists and the legal eagles.  The smug Conventional Parties always think they're buying a common-man vote through insufferable bombastic complex details.  The common man isn't even listening - he's in the pub or watching football.

I remember one young woman on a debate show who was obviously spitting fury at the result - and for a while she tried to keep her reasoning very political and 'learned'.  But one old guy from the Leave camp was rattling her cage, so she finally blurted out that things are always been taken from young people!!! - and that all they wanted was to be able to go on holidays without hassle!!!

That was her real reason and it should have been her first honest opinion.  Emotion.

SecretFly wrote:

pedro wrote:

Ent wrote:Decisions about the U.K. are taken in he uk.

All a crock of Poopie this.

Agree, it's romantic naivity.

But a Principle nonetheless.  People vote with their emotions every bit as much as some try to pretend it's always ever only with a calculator and a ton of party manifestos.

Call it Romantic slush - but it's still a reason why some put an 'X' in the Leave box.  And the power of that romantic 'X' at the polling station - well, we all know that's 100% real.

If both sides could be criticised for the style of their campaigns, one of those criticisms might be that both didn't use the power of romantic notions when trying to appeal to voters that were bored to tears with the economists and the legal eagles.  The smug Conventional Parties always think they're buying a common-man vote through insufferable bombastic complex details.  The common man isn't even listening - he's in the pub or watching football.

I remember one young woman on a debate show who was obviously spitting fury at the result - and for a while she tried to keep her reasoning very political and 'learned'.  But one old guy from the Leave camp was rattling her cage, so she finally blurted out that things are always been taken from young people!!! - and that all they wanted was to be able to go on holidays without hassle!!!

That was her real reason and it should have been her first honest opinion.  Emotion.

Well that's it then...

Hero wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

No there's a clear difference.
I said 1 in 35 towns that have the highest number of residents with degrees voted Leave.

That is true, there is evidence to prove it.

The Leave campaign said Turkey is joining the EU.

That is incorrect, there is evidence to prove it.

That is it in itself a half truth, I would also assume that those towns have a higher number of 'young' people not that having a degree in itself actually means anything.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

I believe Turkey and the EU are having talks again this week - not too sure if Turkey still want to join!

When the recession hits you might not be so smug Duty..

I'll be smug for a week, then stop!

If you are dumb and working class you voted out...

If you went to uni and are middle class you voted in..

Thank goodness I voted in..

Duty281 wrote:

Ent wrote:Decisions about the U.K. are taken in he uk.

All a crock of Poopie this.

Apart from the European Commission, of course, whose law-making powers were supreme over our Houses of Parliament.

Nope. Not true.

When the Lisbon Treaty was rejected in a referendum in Ireland, the Dail (Parliament) could not ratify the Treaty. Thats why we had to have another referendum and the following year so that our Parliament could ratify the Treaty.

The UK also opted out of Schengen as well.

Hero wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

No there's a clear difference.
I said 1 in 35 towns that have the highest number of residents with degrees voted Leave.

That is true, there is evidence to prove it.

The Leave campaign said Turkey is joining the EU.

That is incorrect, there is evidence to prove it.

Although it didn't help that Cameron was a staunch supporter of Turkey joining the EU.

Yeah, that's it Truss. Emotion won over the grey facts.

It's nice being human after all.

Munchkin wrote:

Hero wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

No there's a clear difference.
I said 1 in 35 towns that have the highest number of residents with degrees voted Leave.

That is true, there is evidence to prove it.

The Leave campaign said Turkey is joining the EU.

That is incorrect, there is evidence to prove it.

Although it didn't help that Cameron was a staunch supporter of Turkey joining the EU.

???? Nobody told me this!!!! A whole new angle to that poster now. Hero and others have been keeping facts from me!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If you are dumb and working class you voted out...

If you went to uni and are middle class you voted in..

Thank goodness I voted in..

Lets be honest, if you're posting on here you're life hasn't amounted to much so the intelligence people are quick to try and portray is meaningless.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Hero wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

No there's a clear difference.
I said 1 in 35 towns that have the highest number of residents with degrees voted Leave.

That is true, there is evidence to prove it.

The Leave campaign said Turkey is joining the EU.

That is incorrect, there is evidence to prove it.

That is it in itself a half truth, I would also assume that those towns have a higher number of 'young' people not that having a degree in itself actually means anything.

That's something thing else that tends to get missed out.

What relevance are some of these degrees anyway? I imagine the majority of university degrees have nothing to do with politics.

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

I believe Turkey and the EU are having talks again this week - not too sure if Turkey still want to join!

When the recession hits you might not be so smug Duty..

I'll be smug for a week, then stop!

Why be smug at all? Is smugness a good quality in a person? Does being smug make someone a better human being?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If you are dumb and working class you voted out...

If you went to uni and are middle class you voted in..

Thank goodness I voted in..

Lets be honest, if you're posting on here you're life hasn't amounted to much so the intelligence people are quick to try and portray is meaningless.

Can't argue with that..

Sin é wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Ent wrote:Decisions about the U.K. are taken in he uk.

All a crock of Poopie this.

Apart from the European Commission, of course, whose law-making powers were supreme over our Houses of Parliament.

Nope. Not true.

When the Lisbon Treaty was rejected in a referendum in Ireland, the Dail (Parliament) could not ratify the Treaty. Thats why we had to have another referendum and the following year so that our Parliament could ratify the Treaty.

The UK also opted out of Schengen as well.

European law is supreme to UK law.

I invite you to look at the European Communities Act 1972 and the case of Factortame.

Sin é wrote:

When the Lisbon Treaty was rejected in a referendum in Ireland, the Dail (Parliament) could not ratify the Treaty. Thats why we had to have another referendum and the following year so that our Parliament could ratify the Treaty.

The UK also opted out of Schengen as well.

We didn't have to have another referendum. I was happy with the result of the first one. Who needed the second one?

Munchkin wrote:

Hero wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

No there's a clear difference.
I said 1 in 35 towns that have the highest number of residents with degrees voted Leave.

That is true, there is evidence to prove it.

The Leave campaign said Turkey is joining the EU.

That is incorrect, there is evidence to prove it.

Although it didn't help that Cameron was a staunch supporter of Turkey joining the EU.

He may well have been, but as previously stated Turkey had over the space of 10 years managed to reach 1 out of the 35 EU standards, gaining entry is simply not happening any time soon and should not have been used as part of a fear campaign spouting 76 million people are about to join the EU. Also note how on the map Iraq and Syria are both coloured in and mentioned in name. I wonder why?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

I believe Turkey and the EU are having talks again this week - not too sure if Turkey still want to join!

When the recession hits you might not be so smug Duty..

I'll be smug for a week, then stop!

Why be smug at all?  Is smugness a good quality in a person? Does being smug make someone a better human being?

Why be smug at all?

Because in the last few weeks, I've been threatened, abused, mocked, heckled, spat at, and now I've got the result I wanted.

Victory.

Hero wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Hero wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

No there's a clear difference.
I said 1 in 35 towns that have the highest number of residents with degrees voted Leave.

That is true, there is evidence to prove it.

The Leave campaign said Turkey is joining the EU.

That is incorrect, there is evidence to prove it.

Although it didn't help that Cameron was a staunch supporter of Turkey joining the EU.

He may well have been, but as previously stated Turkey had over the space of 10 years managed to reach 1 out of the 35 EU standards, gaining entry is simply not happening any time soon and should not have been used as part of a fear campaign spouting 76 million people are about to join the EU. Also note how on the map Iraq and Syria are both coloured in and mentioned in name. I wonder why?

I suppose that's another example of racism.

Spat at? Really?

Of course, Lisbon wasn't the first time our Southern and Donegal cousins were told to think again. How Nice!

Secret Fly - how is it being taken down there? Up here its the Shinners who are ironically most angry, whodathunkit!

Duty281 wrote:

Hero wrote:

GSC wrote:To be fair, all that says is they're joining the EU. I get the inference but such political half truths are hardly a new concept.

Again this defence of it being a 'half truth'
It is not a half truth. It is a lie.

Are you saying Britain Stronger in Europe and/or Labour In for Britain never lied?

Can you give an example?

Munchkin wrote:

Hero wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

No there's a clear difference.
I said 1 in 35 towns that have the highest number of residents with degrees voted Leave.

That is true, there is evidence to prove it.

The Leave campaign said Turkey is joining the EU.

That is incorrect, there is evidence to prove it.

Although it didn't help that Cameron was a staunch supporter of Turkey joining the EU.

I don't think he wanted them to join now. He wanted to help them achieve the criteria needed - at some point in the future. In other words, help Turkey on the path to being becoming a country that could join the EU. Of course, no-one knows if they will reach that goal (except the Leave campaign, who know that they will).

Munchkin wrote:

Hero wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

No there's a clear difference.
I said 1 in 35 towns that have the highest number of residents with degrees voted Leave.

That is true, there is evidence to prove it.

The Leave campaign said Turkey is joining the EU.

That is incorrect, there is evidence to prove it.

Although it didn't help that Cameron was a staunch supporter of Turkey joining the EU.

Isn't Boris Turkish (or half Turkish?)

edit: his grandfather was Turkish - Osman Kemal. Boris of course is a Yank!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Hero wrote:The only hard evidence is by generalising based upon the results and the demographics of the town/cities that those people live in.
Such as only 1 of the top 35 for % of residents with degrees voted Leave.

Wish people would stop associating educational prowess with intelligence...

It is isn't the same thing...

Yeah my phD in mathematics is worthless and as a result I am dumb I realize that now. My only hope of being taken for clever would have been if I had left school at 16.

It isn't the same thing but it is broadly indicative

Rowley wrote:Spat at? Really?

Yes, twice.

One time when we (Grassroots Out) had a street stall in the centre of town. Another when some charming fellow objected to me putting a Vote Leave sign on a lamp post.

I'd like to hear from some Outers ....

Would they be OK with the UK joining the EEA, and maintaining access to the single market, a banking passport, and free movement of labour? But with sovereignty restored to Westminster and the ability to claim an "Independence Day".

If the alternative is WTO rules and a major economic depression.

lostinwales wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Hero wrote:The only hard evidence is by generalising based upon the results and the demographics of the town/cities that those people live in.
Such as only 1 of the top 35 for % of residents with degrees voted Leave.

Wish people would stop associating educational prowess with intelligence...

It is isn't the same thing...

Yeah my phD in mathematics is worthless and as a result I am dumb I realize that now. My only hope of being taken for clever would have been if I had left school at 16.

It isn't the same thing but it is broadly indicative

I've got three degrees on my cd player..

lostinwales wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Hero wrote:The only hard evidence is by generalising based upon the results and the demographics of the town/cities that those people live in.
Such as only 1 of the top 35 for % of residents with degrees voted Leave.

Wish people would stop associating educational prowess with intelligence...

It is isn't the same thing...

Yeah my phD in mathematics is worthless and as a result I am dumb I realize that now. My only hope of being taken for clever would have been if I had left school at 16.

It isn't the same thing but it is broadly indicative

Whereas that degree Mr Smith from down the road has in Media Studies shows how damn smart he is and how up to date on current affairs he is too, not that a phD in mathematics proves anything to contrary either.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

I believe Turkey and the EU are having talks again this week - not too sure if Turkey still want to join!

When the recession hits you might not be so smug Duty..

I'll be smug for a week, then stop!

Why be smug at all?  Is smugness a good quality in a person? Does being smug make someone a better human being?

Why be smug at all?

Because in the last few weeks, I've been threatened, abused, mocked, heckled, spat at, and now I've got the result I wanted.

Victory.

You're lowering yourself. Not to the level of someone who spat at you, but lowering yourself nevertheless. Being humble would be admirable.

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Hero wrote:

GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

No there's a clear difference.
I said 1 in 35 towns that have the highest number of residents with degrees voted Leave.

That is true, there is evidence to prove it.

The Leave campaign said Turkey is joining the EU.

That is incorrect, there is evidence to prove it.

Although it didn't help that Cameron was a staunch supporter of Turkey joining the EU.

????     Nobody told me this!!!! A whole new angle to that poster now.  Hero and others have been keeping facts from me!

Oh yes; ‘Turkey deserves its place at the top table of European politics – and that is what I will fight for.’ TURKEY

Better swept under the carpet that one