Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

by beninho Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:00 pm

McLaren wrote:
beninho wrote:Having concerns about EU immigration does not make you a far right nutter or xenophobe. Mclaren, what is your knowledge on EU immigration, what dealings do you have with it? Can you see why people may have concerns about it?

Unless your concerns about how we can offer a more humane immigration system then you are xenophobe. If you are worried about the geographical location of where someone popped out of a uterus then you are not thinking rationally.

And no, I cannot see why anyone would have any issue with the current levels of immigration to/from the UK. Unless as I said above you are worried about how some people coming here are treated.

Do you not agree that an expanding population due to EU immigration, would lead to an extra burden on the NHS, housing, benefit and other public services aswell as the rise in rents?

Do you think that EU immigration, where people get fake payslips in order to claim benefits, working tax credits child tax credits and housing assistance? Or people that work minimal hours and tdo not pay any tax or nino who then can claim housing and benefit assistance? Or people that illegally overstay in the country, in order to achieve a loophole and gain housing or benefit assistance.

All of these are ongoing issues, though you did not answer my question in the first place.

by westisbest Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:05 pm

Could do with an Italy win here.

by SmithersJones Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:07 pm

If you assume that everyone coming to this country from abroad does so to claim benefits, get NHS treatment for free and sponge off our state without contributing to our economy then

a) yes, those things are going to be a problem
b) you're an idiot

by pedro Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:07 pm

English/British players only carry a high price tag in the PL - which is probably for marketing reasons. And because the PL is the richest league. (Bale being an exception of course.)

by super_realist Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:11 pm

Not really Smithers.

There are obvious strains on infrastructure, education, health, housing etc. This is the case regardless of whether you are coming to claim benefit or whether you are coming here to contribute in terms of taxes.

I have no problem in regards to immigration (it's good for the gene pool at the very least) providing that people coming to this country have something to offer, and we have the necessary infrastructure (all encompassing) without putting unnecessary strain on our public services.

Can't really say fairer than that.

by JAS Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:12 pm

super_realist wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:When a player is hyped up by the British media, I always try to think if they were Hungarian or Finnish if we'd be fawning over them in the same way. I can't see anyone in the England squad who'd raise our interest if they weren't English. In fact, Bale apart, there isn't anyone in any of the home nations squads who would be rated especially highly.

Those players I mentioned might be of a decent standard, but they are clearly over-rated They'd barely get a mention if they weren't English.

I agree that the British media hypes up British players, and over-plays England's chances of winning.

However, big prem clubs have the money to buy whomever they want, they are no restricted by nationality. All the England team play regularly in premiership teams under foreign managers, who will pick the best person for the role. For example, if Joe Hart wasn't a decent keeper he wouldn't be first choice at Man City, they can afford any keeper they want.

Yet, when you look at the retail price of English players (Sterling, Stones, for example) it is grossly over the top. Being British, or specifically English, seems to carry some sort of price premium which is frankly not merited and which naturally comes with a certain level of expectation. Now, like American golfers who win multiple majors in one form of the game, being a footballer in a Premiership team, is no guarantee of any success in other versions of the game, such as International Football or in the case of multiple major winning Yanks, Ryder Cup success.

The point being that being first choice or a fancy dan in the Premiership, even if Mourinho, Wenger or whoever rates you highly for that format, doesn't mean it translates to International Football, which in Englands' case, it clearly doesn't.
No surprise that the very best players, who succeed in International Football, are not playing in the Premiership in great numbers, whilst the fact that every English player in the squad does is perhaps a good enough reason that being good enough to play in the Premiership is not suited to International success.

The problem in a nutshell is money!! Obscene amounts of money are pumped into the Premiership and for the purposes of promoting subscriptions to Sky, Sky hype it to the hilt (as you would expect). However also with money comes expectation, but...money does NOT guarantee success. The premiership may well be a great product to watch and classed as the best in Europe but in reality the quality of the leading teams doesn't match that hype. e.g. the Champions league contested by 2 Spanish Teams as well as the Europa League being won by a Spanish team. I know there are ebbs and flows in football power but you have to conclude that the best league in Europe is La Liga in spite of what Sky's marketing hype might say.

In terms of players yes, there are some decent english players around but just because they are paid in excess of £100k a week that doesn't necessarily make them world class. Back to my first statement, the problem in a nutshell is money, it simply distorts rational thinking.

by beninho Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:13 pm

I know those things happen, I have seen it. Its things like that, which is a reason people have concerns regards to immigration. Of course its a minority, and the majority come to work. I'm just trying to say there are reasons why people have concerns.

Personally, I do not want to leave the EU. But I can understand why people would be frustrated.

by super_realist Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:15 pm

pedro wrote:English/British players only carry a high price tag in the PL - which is probably for marketing reasons. And because the PL is the richest league. (Bale being an exception of course.)

I also think that because British players are by and large either not suited to playing abroad, or don't have enough endeavour to try that part of the inflated price is to ensure that those players are kept away from teams they might cause a problem to others in.
Players are bought just to stop them going elsewhere and thus the price is higher than it needs to be.

by pedro Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:19 pm

-Are those people arguing EU isn't democratic enough arguing for a federation then?
-Do those people opposing EU tax havens (eg Luxemburg) think those tax havens will dissappear if UK leaves EU?
-Do those people who oppose Polish workers in the UK think that is a bigger problem than African/Middle Eastern immigration?
-Have those people arguing against bailing out Greece etc ever heard about solidarity?
-Does living on an island absolutely mean you have to be insular?

by **navyblueshorts** Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:21 pm

McLaren wrote:
beninho wrote:Having concerns about EU immigration does not make you a far right nutter or xenophobe. Mclaren, what is your knowledge on EU immigration, what dealings do you have with it? Can you see why people may have concerns about it?

Unless your concerns about how we can offer a more humane immigration system then you are xenophobe. If you are worried about the geographical location of where someone popped out of a uterus then you are not thinking rationally.

And no, I cannot see why anyone would have any issue with the current levels of immigration to/from the UK. Unless as I said above you are worried about how some people coming here are treated.

What.A.Prat picard

by super_realist Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:31 pm

Mac, please explain why you think the current immigration in the European Union is inhumane.

by JAS Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:22 pm

McLaren wrote:JAS, but they are quite minor issues compared to the goal of spreading a lasting liberalism across Europe.

Lasting liberalism (and indeed prosperity) is a laudable aim, don't have a problem with the high level aims & objectives of the EU,however it's the grasp of the detail on how it can be achieved where they seem to have lost their way.

McLaren wrote: I like that 28 countries are forced to listen to a wide range of views, I would rather have swedes making my policy than most of the people in England.

Windup alert!! Majority voting rather than unanimity should be the order of the day if important decisions need to be made and carried forward.

McLaren wrote: As for the likes of Greece, I would argue that the UK and Germany should have bailed Greece out with basically free money. We need to start getting used to the EU as a state and the countries as regions, so just as we would bail out yorkshire or the Highlands for free it is perfectly fair for the EU to bail out one of its regions.

What do you mean free money? It's not "free" money. If we have a surplus (which we don't) I would first use it to inject cash into our NHS for amongst other things so it can cope with increased demand that immigration will obviously place on it. Having acutely ill patients sitting all night in A&E corridors because of chronic underfunding tells me we have greater priorities than subsidising Greek & Spanish siestas. Then there's our crumbling steel industry on which so many other jobs on our economy depend. Are you happy to condemn steel workers and workers in related industries on to the long term unemployment scrapheap if it helps an incompetent Greek government to stay solvent while it dishes out freebies to it's citizens? By all means help the other nations...WHEN WE CAN though, not when we can't afford to when we have pressing priorities at home.

McLaren wrote: As far as I can tell the only reason that makes sense for voting leave is if you are a xenophobe and you want to turn the UK into a far right wing state with very low levels of immigration. And anyone campaigning for leave should be honest enough to admit that their whole argument is really about an anti immigration ideology.

Seriously???

[quote="McLaren"] Haven't seen the video about the truckloads of documents getting moved about but not sure why it would matter even if it was true? How else do you move documents if not in trucks or trains etc?

Just for you Mac...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8kpgGIDa6c

Wasted money is wasted money, that's money that won't go to the Greeks.

by kwinigolfer Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:37 pm

Do these reports resonate with the facts of the assassination in Yorkshire:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-suspect-had-ties-far-right-us/86026562/

??

by McLaren Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:22 pm

Ben

Ok, some very direct answers.

"Mclaren, what is your knowledge on EU immigration, what dealings do you have with it?"

My knowledge is obviously not at an academic level. Although I feel I have enough seen evidence to convince me immigration is good for nations and that I am happy for it to happen in the country I live in. The "dealings" I with with it is interaction with people who have moved here from the UK. Which have all been ok.

"Can you see why people may have concerns about it?"

Yes, if the are xenophobic or morons/uneducated.

"Do you not agree that an expanding population due to EU immigration, would lead to an extra burden on the NHS, housing, benefit and other public services aswell as the rise in rents?"

No, given that immigrants are net contributors to the tax bill the government could easily increase budgets to match the increasing population if they wanted to. What has immigration got to do with an austerity ideology?

Each unit we add to our economy adds to the whole, so every reason for the government to take advantage of this fact.

As for your second point about benefit fraud, who cares? It happens at pretty small levels and by UK born citizens as well. At some point it becomes uneconomic to reduce fraud any further.

pedro

I have an easy answer to your questions. We are a nation filled with xenophobes whipped into a frenzy be Farage.

Navy

insightful response as usual.

Super

On the whole the current system isn't inhumane but if you are not arguing for improving it then what are you arguing for?

Jas

Not a wind up at all. If you pool the ideas of policy makers and politicians from 28 countries (some of which are much more progressive than ours) you are going to get much better solutions.

Are government doesn't need a surplus to spend more money on the NHS, it just needs to drop its current ideology of state shrinkage (or austerity as the right label it). It is pretty pointless for a strong economy to run a surplus as any money borrowed and pumped into the system will get returns far outstripping debt servicing payments.

And again, the government could have saved the jobs of those steelworkers if it had wanted to. Or at least provided extra funding to the communities affected to help get people back to work.

Not sure why people think leaving the EU will reverse the ideology of the conservative party? All you are doing by leaving the EU is opening us up to the full scale of a right wing government without the checks and balances supplied by the EU.

And yes, "seriously" voting leave is all about immigration and xenophobia.

Kwini

Yes, some news outlets here reporting that the SPLC have documents showing that he bought manuals from a US neo nazi group.

by super_realist Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:25 pm

Mac, I'm not arguing for anything. You're the one saying it needs improving but then not explaining why you think it's not "humane" enough for you. How exactly is the EU letting migrants down?

It sounds like your SJW stance is leaning toward a completely uninhibited movement of people across all European borders.

by JAS Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:37 pm

Mac
"Not a wind up at all. If you pool the ideas of policy makers and politicians from 28 countries (some of which are much more progressive than ours) you are going to get much better solutions."
Yes that's fine but not the point I was making, the point I was making was that 27 could agree but one self centred voice could block progress. If you watched that vid I provided the link to that is essentially what the French have done. Everybody knows and agrees that the Srasbourgh parliament building is an anomaly and a huge waste of money...except the Frogs. So because they veto any move to get rid of it, we all have to keep paying for it.

by SmithersJones Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:49 pm

Ideally there'd be degrees of veto - matters of international security would require complete unanimity, matters of internal admin a mere majority. I'd very much be in the maybe camp if it were an option but I strongly believe that in the absence of such an option anyone who thinks a better EU is the ideal solution can only reasonably vote in favour of remaining and therefore suffering half a chance of effecting change.

by JAS Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:59 pm

Pretty much where I'm at Smithers, I'm a definitely maybe but in the absence of that option it has to be stay because if it's leave it would be a) damaging both to us and EU b) acrimonious, they'd hate us for it c) rule us completely out of any negotiating position. So yeah I'll probably be a remainer albeit a reluctant one

by **navyblueshorts** Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:46 am

McLaren wrote:..."Can you see why people may have concerns about it?"

Yes, if the are xenophobic or morons/uneducated....

Hey! I'm a xenophobe. Either that or I'm thick and I don't think I'm thick. Great start to the week.

Hang on a minute though....could it be that Mac's a simplistic berk? Surely not...

Happy to be less than "insightful" with you Mac as you're not interested in any opinion other than your own, or you dismiss them as those of "morons".

by McLaren Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:42 am

Navy

What data or analysis have you seen which suggests the number of immigrants in the UK has any causal link to under funding of the NHS, failure to build new homes, imposition of farcical education policy, or any of the other things people in the UK are worried about?

by super_realist Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:45 am

I could ask you something similar Mac. What evidence do you have that wishing to leave the EU makes you xenophobic? There isn't any. It's just your speculation.

To answer your question, that you pose, it's obvious that if you have unfettered immigration, that puts a strain on infrastructure, housing, education, NHS etc. As long as it is within a manageable number, no problem. Once it starts to have an effect, you need to take a look at it.

I want to stay in by the way, does that make me a xenophile?

by McLaren Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:55 am

But super, we know that those coming to the country are contributors to the economy and therefore budgets could be increased using immigrants tax payed to match the increase in population. Immigration only squeezes budgets if those coming to the country don't contribute to the tax bill or like our current government they don't increase spending to reflect a growing population.

Not sure about xenophile but I will happily admit to being a Europhile. I would love to be part of a federal Europe.

by super_realist Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:01 pm

McLaren wrote:But super, we know that those coming to the country are contributors to the economy and therefore budgets could be increased using immigrants tax payed to match the increase in population. Immigration only squeezes budgets if those coming to the country don't contribute to the tax bill or like our current government they don't increase spending to reflect a growing population.

Not sure about xenophile but I will happily admit to being a Europhile. I would love to be part of a federal Europe.

Mac, I'm talking about people who pay their taxes. In theory I have no problem at all with unlimited immigration PROVIDED that it does not put a strain on existing public services and that those coming in add value in terms of skills.

Capital projects like building hospitals, schools, housing and expanding infrastructure takes time. If the rate matches immigration, fine, if it doesn't, limit immigration until these services can be provided at an acceptable rate.

It's incredibly naïve to assume just because people are paying taxes that housing, education, health, infrastructure etc can cope. If it can, fine, If it can't, you have to limit the strain on it, if that means curb immigration. What's the problem?

by pedro Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:14 pm

Are you just talking about immigration from EU countries? Immigration isn't just immigration.

by super_realist Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:35 pm

To whom are you referring Pedro?

I think in light of the referendum we are only talking about EU immigration.
However, in terms of global immigration, provided services are kept in line with skilled immigration on a points based system. I don't have a problem.

by raycastleunited Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:02 pm

SmithersJones wrote:If you assume that everyone coming to this country from abroad does so to claim benefits, get NHS treatment for free and sponge off our state without contributing to our economy then

a) yes, those things are going to be a problem
b) you're an idiot

brilliant!

by raycastleunited Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:07 pm

super_realist wrote:

I have no problem in regards to immigration (it's good for the gene pool at the very least) providing that people coming to this country have something to offer

Too right. The last 15 years would have been infinitely less enjoyable without the incoming flood of hot eastern european chicks to brighten up our days.

by beninho Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:31 pm

imagine how sh*t uk based stag weekends will be without the eastern europeans.

by pedro Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:04 pm

raycastleunited wrote:
super_realist wrote:

I have no problem in regards to immigration (it's good for the gene pool at the very least) providing that people coming to this country have something to offer

Too right. The last 15 years would have been infinitely less enjoyable without the incoming flood of hot eastern european chicks to brighten up our days.

I can just imagine how she whispers in your ear: Rrrrrrrrray, McLarrrrrrren

by kwinigolfer Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:41 pm

Why are the pound and Stock Market doing so well today after weeks in the doldrums?

Is there actually a feeling that we'll "remain"?

And: If we "exit", does Cameron resign??

by McLaren Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:48 pm

Kwini

As always it is hard to see what evidence the political commentators are drawing on other than reporting each other, but apparently Cameron will go (and be replaced by boris) and we will have an election sometime in the next year if we brexit.

And I don't have a feeling that we will remain, in fact I have a really bad feeling that the fight is already over. Just too many people out there getting caught up in the fight between the campaigns instead of analyzing and thinking critically for themselves.

by beninho Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:22 pm

Polls are suggesting that we will remain, which is why pound has bounced. There seems to have been a hell of a lot of not sures in previous polls, and these are likely to be remainers it is claimed. I think we will remain. I think Camerons day are numbered, though they were anyway I think, the Tory party is totally split, and will continue fighting, but the labour party wont take advantage, and the lib dems are still walking badly after being screwed hard in the wrong'un by the Tories.

by McLaren Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:01 pm

Are England the new Spain? Able to rest 6 first team players in pool game they still need something from.

by Davie Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:03 pm

"rested" is the polite way of putting it. I'd say 2 or 3 were dropped

by pedro Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:27 pm

It turned out the whole team rested today.

by McLaren Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:26 am

Is there a player with a more ineffectual final product than lallana? It is a real shame because he is actually pretty good at keeping the ball and has some neat tricks but he seems to s**t his pants at the crucial moment.

by beninho Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:47 am

It's hard breaking down a team of 11 defenders. But I've not been against Roy Hodgson I'm now starting to turn. I understand playing vardy and sturridge after the Wales game though both were pretty poor. Resting the full backs iI can just about live with even though walkers been our best player this tournament. But playing jack Wilshire, actually taking jack Wilshire was a bonkers decision. Hopefully he won't appear again this tournement. No issues with him if he had some games under his belt but hrs noway near match fit or sharp. Should have left him and barkley and taken townsend and drinkwater. Eric dier again the best player.

by I'm never wrong Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:58 am

Henderson won't be voting in the euro election as he can't put a cross in the box.

by super_realist Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:24 am

How is Hodgson still in a job? Paid more than any other manager, yet completely ineffective. It is hilarious a country with resources like England cannot win a group like that.
Looks like they are going to spawn an easy game in the next round, but this massive c0ck up by Hodgson means they are in the same half as France, Germany and Italy. Well done Roy, you just signed your own p45.

by MontysMerkin Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:29 am

Unless we continue to progress in which case he's the best English manager ever. Really, you are worse than the Mail!

by super_realist Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:33 am

England aren't progressing though, they are as useless as they always have been.
This is a guy who took England to their worst ever tournament in Brazil. If he had any self respect, he'd have resigned, yet the FA, the most clueless organisation in football, give a complete loser a new contract.
Any other country would have sacked him.

by beninho Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:48 am

Should Del Bosque have resigned when Spain failed to get out of the group stages of the last world cup?

I think Hodgson was the best choice at the time, and still cannot see anyone else that could replace him, ive read people saying Pardew or Eddie Howe, I doubt Howe would take it and Pardew, no thanks!

Roll on Iceland or Hungary in the next round!

by super_realist Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:53 am

Of course he should have. If you fail to meet expectations, you should absolutely resign.

You have to consider how you'd feel to have someone who has taken your country to their worst ever tournament performance still in charge in the next one. Would you really be inspired or confident of a decent tournament after that?

Iceland actually look pretty good, certainly defensively and they have the things that England crave, passion, teamwork and endeavour.

by beninho Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:03 am

Passion means nothing in football, the radio last night they were going on about Wales having more passion than England, yet we beat them.

To be fair, we have seen some dross from England at major championship down the years, and this team and performances are better than many I can remember since 1996, even then we were lucky!

by super_realist Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:08 am

Of course passion means something, every tournament since 96 it looks like England haven't given a toss whether they go out or not. Insipid displays that make Nine Chins Ryder Cup performances look like he's Ian Poulter.

Danny Murphy described England as being "blunt" this morning. Perfect description.

by pedro Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:10 am

Hodgson is not the man and never has been. He's second or third tier. And even if the England team is second or third tier as well, they should be able to attract a top manager.

Ben, by claiming it's hard to break a team of 11 defenders you start sounding like Ronaldo. Big teams never complain about such things, they overcome them. Fact is, England has a number of good players, but most importantly they lack some class in midfield. Rooney's over the top and the Liverpool hackers are not far from just being average. Quarterfinal looks probable, but that's it.

by super_realist Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:14 am

In most respects Pedro, he's a good match for England, because they are also second tier.

by pedro Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:19 am

Yeah but my point is they should be able to attract a bigger / better name.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:19 am

I'm never wrong wrote:Henderson won't be voting in the euro election as he can't put a cross in the box.

Like that one. Sadly true last night.

by super_realist Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:29 am

pedro wrote:Yeah but my point is they should be able to attract a bigger / better name.

Why?

They aren't a team with a history of success, they aren't a team which looks like it enjoys tournament football, they aren't a team that looks like they have the ability to ever challenge or have players capable of adjusting to tournament football.

Apart from the overinflated salary, I don't see England as being any more of an attractive proposition than teams of a similar standing. Second rate team, hence second rate manager.

It would be a bit like saying that Palace, Everton or West Brom should attract top name managers.

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