The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

First topic message reminder :

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I may have missed it on this thread but what are peoples thoughts on TTIP? Personally I think TTIP would be a a disaster for the EU, but can we fight it off?

Broadly negative but largely irrelevant as the UK would sign up to it in a flash with or without the EU.

Of course it's negative. It's a warning against TTIP and from a Nobel Prize winning economist. Strange that some here complain about the a lack of attention to 'financial experts' yet seem to brush aside the warnings of one on the worlds leading economists.

You say the UK will accept it in a flash, even if Brexit win. Why? I know Cameron will be quick to sell the UK to the highest bidder, but there are plenty of voices against TTIP, including the leader of the opposition. It would also be very doubtful that Cameron will be in power if Brexit do win.

I haven't got around to reading all the comments in reply to the TTIP article, very busy, but will once I get a break.

Police Probe Post-Brexit Attacks On Poles - Sky News
https://apple.news/AOMFOwa7nTASfQqjhqP56lg

Very sad.

Munchkin wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

kingjohn7 wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

I actually think the Remainers will be more annoyed by the lies, as it will be something they can point to for the loss. People arent stupid- especially in the large working class areas that have been getting shafted and lied to by politicians since forever. They may put forward their views in a less eloquent way than the more "educated" but in a lot of ways understand the world and life much more.

If they are so Frak smart how come they have managed to create the circumstances where the country is going to be run by a bunch of right wing muppets who will care for them even less than the current bunch?

It wasn't them that created the circumstances.

It is overwhelmingly their vote which led to the slim majority for the leave campaign. The knock on effect is that in the short term a bunch of right wing 'muppets' will be running the country who couldn't give a stuff about them, and, if we do quit the EU on the back of this, in the long term they are the ones who will suffer the most from the lack of funds and investment that is currently being channeled back to the UK by the EU.

They absolutely do have legitimate gripes against the government, but in taking this chance to stick the boot in they really are 'cutting off their nose to spite their face'

Ent wrote:Police Probe Post-Brexit Attacks On Poles - Sky News
https://apple.news/AOMFOwa7nTASfQqjhqP56lg

Very sad.

Been happening in Huntingdon, one of the worst places you can go in this whole country in my opinion and on the front cover of one of those "worst places to live in Britain" books. I've been robbed at gunpoint in Cambridge, but Huntingdon is the only place I felt uncomfortable about my safety working day-by-day.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

Ent wrote:Police Probe Post-Brexit Attacks On Poles - Sky News
https://apple.news/AOMFOwa7nTASfQqjhqP56lg

Very sad.

Been happening in Huntingdon, one of the worst places you can go in this whole country in my opinion and on the front cover of one of those "worst places to live in Britain" books. I've been robbed at gunpoint in Cambridge, but Huntingdon is the only place I felt uncomfortable about my safety working day-by-day.

Do you think this is par for the course there or has an exit vote legitimised this behaviour in their eyes?

As for the working class; for all the bluster about Eu regulations a lot of the good stuff does revolve around workers rights, working time directive, holiday roll over etc

I get that places are dissatisfied with life but don't get why they think being out of the eu will be better for them.

I saw what sounded like very sensible words on Twitter to the effect that:  "I don't believe that half the country are racists, but I do fear that racists will think that half the country supports them".

Ent wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

Ent wrote:Police Probe Post-Brexit Attacks On Poles - Sky News
https://apple.news/AOMFOwa7nTASfQqjhqP56lg

Very sad.

Been happening in Huntingdon, one of the worst places you can go in this whole country in my opinion and on the front cover of one of those "worst places to live in Britain" books. I've been robbed at gunpoint in Cambridge, but Huntingdon is the only place I felt uncomfortable about my safety working day-by-day.

Do you think this is par for the course there or has an exit vote legitimised this behaviour in their eyes?

As for the working class; for all the bluster about Eu regulations a lot of the good stuff does revolve around workers rights, working time directive, holiday roll over etc

I get that places are dissatisfied with life but don't get why they think being out of the eu will be better for them.

Well I'm sure a Conversative government that's going further towards the Right and with Gove in a prominent position will really being looking after the working classes in deprived areas once they have control.

lostinwales wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

kingjohn7 wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

I actually think the Remainers will be more annoyed by the lies, as it will be something they can point to for the loss. People arent stupid- especially in the large working class areas that have been getting shafted and lied to by politicians since forever. They may put forward their views in a less eloquent way than the more "educated" but in a lot of ways understand the world and life much more.

If they are so Frak smart how come they have managed to create the circumstances where the country is going to be run by a bunch of right wing muppets who will care for them even less than the current bunch?

It wasn't them that created the circumstances.

It is overwhelmingly their vote which led to the slim majority for the leave campaign. The knock on effect is that in the short term a bunch of right wing 'muppets' will be running the country who couldn't give a stuff about them, and, if we do quit the EU on the back of this, in the long term they are the ones who will suffer the most from the lack of funds and investment that is currently being channeled back to the UK by the EU.

They absolutely do have legitimate gripes against the government, but in taking this chance to stick the boot in they really are 'cutting off their nose to spite their face'

It wasn't just the working class that voted for Brexit. I would like to know how many actually voted for it. Anyway, you're engaged in scapegoating. It was not them, or any section of the electorate, that created the circumstances. Look to the intransigent Junker (A man who put the knife in to the Remain campaign on the eve of election!), and those other of the EU Elite, for the source of our woes. Also look to Cameron who called the referendum, and to the Remain camps negative, fearmongering, hyperbolic and uninformative campaign which hardened anti-EU sentiment and appears to have actually pushed the undecided into Brexit.

All the above created the circumstances. Not the electorate who simply voted according to their democratic right and conscience.

It wasn't just the working class, but there were several historical working class towns and cities that overwhelmingly swung it towards Leave whilst the University cities leaned towards Remain.

No the electorate have created these circumstances by voting leave.

Irony reigns supreme on this thread.

It probably wont be better for them out of the E.U. Almost certainly not in the short to medium term.

One of the many problems of the referendum is it has boiled many complex issues down into a yes/no.

The Leave campaign has basically said to everyone - if you are unhappy, for whatever reason, we have the answer. Leave. Now. And problem will go away.

A dreadful series of gambles by our politicians playing party politics that looks to have next to no contigency in place.

This is the spread of votes based upon the demographics of the towns/cities and level of higher education.

Hero wrote:It wasn't just the working class, but there were several historical working class towns and cities that overwhelmingly swung it towards Leave whilst the University cities leaned towards Remain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/

3/50 highest economic grouping DE voted remain.

2/30 for top elderly areas.

32/35 top graduate population remain.

Depresses me really.

catchweight wrote:It probably wont be better for them out of the E.U. Almost certainly not in the short to medium term.

One of the many problems of the referendum is it has boiled many complex issues down into a yes/no.

The Leave campaign has basically said to everyone - if you are unhappy, for whatever reason, we have the answer. Leave. Now. And problem will go away.

A dreadful series of gambles by our politicians playing party politics that looks to have next to no contigency in place.

Not a direct quote but leave campaign apparently have no plan for exit.

Backtrack On 'Give NHS £350m EU Money' Promise - Sky News
https://apple.news/AZ1Osd9kAQ_--_wVw4vJa5g

Doesn't say much for the standard of education in England and Wales then.

It's a nonsense anyway. To suggest that those with less academic qualification can't think for themselves is absolute horse dung. It was the responsibility of Government to ensure the electorate was adequately informed. It failed.

Oh on my list of 'scapegoats' the working class are a long way from the top - which is in my mind held by Cameron. Then there are a few others including the people running the campaigns on both sides etc.

What do we consider the working classes to be? I work, but then I am a highly educated professional and in the office I work in, as far as I know, all of the other highly educated professionals voted Remain like I did. If you consider the working classes to be the C2's D and E groups (whatever that means) then 64% voted out.

Potentially they were put into a situation where both choices were crap. But the choice basically 2/3 took will hurt all of us and them in particular, and if the reports are anything to go by the reasons they took to justify this vote will, it turns out, be unaffected by Brexit.

Munchkin wrote:Doesn't say much for the standard of education in England and Wales then.

It's a nonsense anyway. To suggest that those with less academic qualification can't think for themselves is absolute horse dung. It was the responsibility of Government to ensure the electorate was adequately informed. It failed.

Absolutely agree. Can sometimes take a bit more effort to persuade 'those with less academic qualifications' to actually think but they certainly can.

Munchkin wrote:Doesn't say much for the standard of education in England and Wales then.

It's a nonsense anyway. To suggest that those with less academic qualification can't think for themselves is absolute horse dung. It was the responsibility of Government to ensure the electorate was adequately informed. It failed.

Precisely. And from personal experience there are plenty with academic qualification that can't think for themselves either. Cuts both ways.

Perfectly reasonable to disagree with the wisdom of a leave vote, and be worried about the consequences. But lashing out by creating and attacking a stereotype of a leave voter doesn't help anyone at a time when we need to band together. For all the Project Fear, and divisive politics apparently used by the Leave campaign, those are the same tactics you now adopt.

For me it was a failure of the Labour Party in these areas as a large number of those towns etc are traditional Labour seats.

I think the way people are seeing leave voters here and everywhere is quite a dangerous thing. We're building them up in our heads and demonising them and not bothering trying to understand them. Which is proving their feelings of years of being misunderstood and ignored correct

All the while we faff and sulk over something we can no longer control the worst of society think they are being found right by this vote

Hate only propagates if we allow it. That lot need kicking to the curb fast, but that isn't even remotely the typical leave voter. If you think it is then this only gets worse

Munchkin wrote:Doesn't say much for the standard of education in England and Wales then.

It's a nonsense anyway. To suggest that those with less academic qualification can't think for themselves is absolute horse dung. It was the responsibility of Government to ensure the electorate was adequately informed. It failed.

Surely it was also the responsibility of the Leave campaign to make sure the the electorate was adequately informed as well though? Rather than now back tracking from their (barely) half truths less than 72 hours after the polls closed. I am sure people would have less of a problem with it if they had been provided with the correct information and still came to this conclusion.

Munchkin wrote:Doesn't say much for the standard of education in England and Wales then.

It's a nonsense anyway. To suggest that those with less academic qualification can't think for themselves is absolute horse dung. It was the responsibility of Government to ensure the electorate was adequately informed. It failed.

People are responsible for their own vote, can't blame the government for everything ffs.

Not a single vote in our history has ever been fought over anything but half truths

If the leave half truths were so blatant. How on earth did remain not manage to quash them? Like say releasing proper statistics?

Because the Leave campaign was "sick of experts".

lostinwales wrote:Oh on my list of 'scapegoats' the working class are a long way from the top - which is in my mind held by Cameron. Then there are a few others including the people running the campaigns on both sides etc.

What do we consider the working classes to be? I work, but then I am a highly educated professional and in the office I work in, as far as I know, all of the other highly educated professionals voted Remain like I did. If you consider the working classes to be the C2's D and E groups (whatever that means) then 64% voted out.

Potentially they were put into a situation where both choices were crap. But the choice basically 2/3 took will hurt all of us and them in particular, and if the reports are anything to go by the reasons they took to justify this vote will, it turns out, be unaffected by Brexit.

The professional class may largely consist of those considered middle class but not exclusively. I would think the working class most refer to on this thread would be in the C2,DE grade.

64% means that 34% above the working class grade voted Leave. That's a huge chunk of the vote for Brexit.

I agree that Brexit will hurt the majority within the UK, but how much more it will mean to those working class I'm not sure. Regardless of current reports on how the EU has benefited the working class, I have to think that their protests must have some basis in truth.

Remain did state throughout the Leave pledges and propaganda were lies, watch Khan and Davidson pull apart BoJo for evidence.
The problem being is the 52% still believed the lies.

Hero wrote:Remain did state throughout the Leave pledges and propaganda were lies, watch Khan and Davidson pull apart BoJo for evidence.
The problem being is the 52% still believed the lies.

Leave just said they were sick of experts and called the truth project fear.

The problem was Cameron had no lamb for the slaughter to front remain the way he did with darling and the Labour Party in Scotland.

There certainly was a problem from the Remain side on how to communicate their message with the voters (By Labour and the Tories), but I personally felt that the £350m/NHS (the big mistruth of the campaign in my eyes) was quashed numerous times. Yet it was continued to be peddled and definitely played a part in the Leave win, and to backtrack on it so rapidly now leaves a sour taste.

Ent wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Doesn't say much for the standard of education in England and Wales then.

It's a nonsense anyway. To suggest that those with less academic qualification can't think for themselves is absolute horse dung. It was the responsibility of Government to ensure the electorate was adequately informed. It failed.

People are responsible for their own vote, can't blame the government for everything ffs.

How can the uninformed be responsible? The Government is very much at fault for this. They are responsible. They are accountable.

temporary21 wrote:Not a single vote in our history has ever been fought over anything but half truths

If the leave half truths were so blatant. How on earth did remain not manage to quash them? Like say releasing proper statistics?

And it wasn't a 'half truth'

It was a pledge that £350m per week that went to EU would instead be spent on the NHS. It was used throughout their media campaign by Boris.
Yet less than 24 hours after the result it was admitted it couldn't be done. Not a half truth, a full blown lie.

Hero wrote:Remain did state throughout the Leave pledges and propaganda were lies, watch Khan and Davidson pull apart BoJo for evidence.
The problem being is the 52% still believed the lies.

The thing is they did no such thing, Sadiq Khan just reeled off catchphrase after catchphrase and his 'thank you' crap will have antagonised a lot of voters. Davidson did a fair job during the great debate but both sides are guilty of lying so you choose which lies to believe.

For me this kind of votes are always centre on winning hearts and minds.

Remain utterly failed to grasp the hearts part until the very last minute when Gordon Brown was wheeled out to give his Scottish ref speech with the EU substituted for Scotland.

catchweight wrote:Because the Leave campaign was "sick of experts".

And the remain campaign was useless and pushing half truths of their own. Reminds me too much of the 'prophets' scene in Life of Brian.

Nobody talked with authority. It is unbelievable the amount of information that has come out in the last 2 days compared to the last 2 months. Why wasn't remain pushing Michael Dougan to the front at every opportunity?

Munchkin wrote:

Ent wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Doesn't say much for the standard of education in England and Wales then.

It's a nonsense anyway. To suggest that those with less academic qualification can't think for themselves is absolute horse dung. It was the responsibility of Government to ensure the electorate was adequately informed. It failed.

People are responsible for their own vote, can't blame the government for everything ffs.

How can the uninformed be responsible? The Government is very much at fault for this. They are responsible. They are accountable.

They have to inform themselves for Christ sake.

Let's blame the government for everything they way we used to blame the eu for everything.

Beggars belief this.

You should know liesnlike that permeated the whole campaign everywhere

The remain camps inability to be able to properly quash that must go down an example of extreme incapability to understand people's fears

Ent wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Ent wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Doesn't say much for the standard of education in England and Wales then.

It's a nonsense anyway. To suggest that those with less academic qualification can't think for themselves is absolute horse dung. It was the responsibility of Government to ensure the electorate was adequately informed. It failed.

People are responsible for their own vote, can't blame the government for everything ffs.

How can the uninformed be responsible? The Government is very much at fault for this. They are responsible. They are accountable.

They have to inform themselves for Christ sake.

Let's blame the government for everything they way we used to blame the eu for everything.

Beggars belief this.

"They have to inform themselves........"

Good grief.

Munchkin wrote:

Ent wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Ent wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Doesn't say much for the standard of education in England and Wales then.

It's a nonsense anyway. To suggest that those with less academic qualification can't think for themselves is absolute horse dung. It was the responsibility of Government to ensure the electorate was adequately informed. It failed.

People are responsible for their own vote, can't blame the government for everything ffs.

How can the uninformed be responsible? The Government is very much at fault for this. They are responsible. They are accountable.

They have to inform themselves for Christ sake.

Let's blame the government for everything they way we used to blame the eu for everything.

Beggars belief this.

"They have to inform themselves........"

Good grief.

Nobody told me isn't an excuse for anything, you have personal responsibility for your actions.

Ent wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Ent wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Ent wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Doesn't say much for the standard of education in England and Wales then.

It's a nonsense anyway. To suggest that those with less academic qualification can't think for themselves is absolute horse dung. It was the responsibility of Government to ensure the electorate was adequately informed. It failed.

People are responsible for their own vote, can't blame the government for everything ffs.

How can the uninformed be responsible? The Government is very much at fault for this. They are responsible. They are accountable.

They have to inform themselves for Christ sake.

Let's blame the government for everything they way we used to blame the eu for everything.

Beggars belief this.

"They have to inform themselves........"

Good grief.

Nobody told me isn't an excuse for anything, you have personal responsibility for your actions.

Ask someone else to explain it to you. I give up on you.

Munchkin wrote:

Ent wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Ent wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Ent wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Doesn't say much for the standard of education in England and Wales then.

It's a nonsense anyway. To suggest that those with less academic qualification can't think for themselves is absolute horse dung. It was the responsibility of Government to ensure the electorate was adequately informed. It failed.

People are responsible for their own vote, can't blame the government for everything ffs.

How can the uninformed be responsible? The Government is very much at fault for this. They are responsible. They are accountable.

They have to inform themselves for Christ sake.

Let's blame the government for everything they way we used to blame the eu for everything.

Beggars belief this.

"They have to inform themselves........"

Good grief.

Nobody told me isn't an excuse for anything, you have personal responsibility for your actions.

Ask someone else to explain it to you. I give up on you.

I gave up on you long ago, the idea you shouldn't try to educate yourself before voting on a massive issue and instead leave it to others is genuine idiocy.

Of course people have to take responsibility for their own decisions.

They find videos of cats doing cute things easily enough

Finding information is the exact same process

Cassius Zhi wrote:Of course people have to take responsibility for their own decisions.

They find videos of cats doing cute things easily enough

Finding information is the exact same process

I want people to provide me with videos of cats.

-------

https://www.606v2.com/viewtopic.forum?t=63474