South Africa v Ireland, 11 June

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SOUTH AFRICA v IRELAND
11 June 2016
17:00 SAST (UTC+02)
DHL Newlands, Cape Town

Live on Sky Sports

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

22 Played 22
16 Won 5
1 Drawn 1
5 Lost 16
422 Points 277

B. Recent Form

8 November 2014 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 29 – 15 to Ireland

10 November 2012 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 12 – 16 to South Africa

6 November 2010 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 21 – 23 to South Africa

28 November 2009 - Croke Park, Dublin: 15 – 10 to Ireland

11 November 2006 - Lansdowne Road, Dublin: 32 – 15 to Ireland

13 November 2004 - Lansdowne Road, Dublin: 17 – 12 to Ireland

19 June 2004 - Newlands, Cape Town: 26 – 17 to South Africa

C. Teams

SOUTH AFRICA 

15 Willie le Roux, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Lionel Mapoe, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Lwazi Mvovo, 10 Pat Lambie, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Siya Kolisi, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi 17 Trevor Nyakane 18 Julian Redelinghuys 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit 20 Warren Whiteley 21 Rudy Paige 22 Elton Jantjies 23 Jesse Kriel

IRELAND

J Payne; A Trimble, R Henshaw, L Marshall, K Earls; P Jackson, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best, M Ross; I Henderson, D Toner; CJ Stander, J Murphy, J Heaslip

Replacements: S Cronin, F Bealham, T Furlong, U Dillane, R Ruddock, K Marmion, I Madigan, C Gilroy.

Sin é wrote:TOD is getting married on the day of the 3rd test. Think Schmidt should have brought him for the other 2 though.

Maybe the bride didn't want him going in case he gotten a black eye or broken nose, you know what these women are like

eirebilly wrote:I like that team, one of the best that Schmidt has picked. Shame Olding didn't make the bench ahead of Madigan though.

For all Madigan's flaws it's a bit of a leap to start suggesting Olding is a superior 10. He doesn't even have any goalkicking experience.

Payne at 15
Henshaw at 13
Marshall is back
Jackson ahead of Marmion
Marmion ahead of Reddan
Cronin ahead of Strauss


Theres more positives than negatives in that selection.

Sin é wrote:TOD is getting married on the day of the 3rd test. Think Schmidt should have brought him for the other 2 though.

Tbh, it doesn't look very professional of TOD to arrange his wedding for that date. He knew there was a tour coming up.

I'll be carefully watching how Payne goes at 15. Whilst he sure looks the part there for Ulster, I've never thought he'd have the same space to operate in at Test level and he's also never been that strong under the high ball. However, he has been playing at 15 lately with Connacht using Henshaw at 13 - that probably made Joe's decision.

It's not easy to get a wedding and honeymoon in when you're an international rugby player. You have like, a 4 week window between the tour and pre-season and its the window everyone wants to schedule their wedding and honeymoon in, or just schedule their holiday in.

I've no problem with players arranging a wedding in the summer tour window but you also have to be okay with not being selected because of it.

I think Tommy O'Donnell is good enough to come straight back in in the autumn. He's better than Murphy.

He probably booked it when he was behind SOB and Henry too.

Anyway, I'm pretty outraged to see Jackson at 10 and Payne at 15. Where is the conservative, poppy-hacking Schmidt we have come to know and love?? Schmidt out!

Notch wrote:It's not easy to get a wedding and honeymoon in when you're an international rugby player. You have like, a 4 week window between the tour and pre-season and its the window everyone wants to schedule their wedding and honeymoon in, or just schedule their holiday in.

I've no problem with players arranging a wedding in the summer tour window but you also have to be okay with not being selected because of it.

I think Tommy O'Donnell is good enough to come straight back in in the autumn. He's better than Murphy.

So is SOB and VDF though. It would have been a good time to press his cause

His Ulster Bias is ridiculous. 

6/15 for Irelands 3rd province while the league toppers only get 5 (not including Henshaw yet...)  

Schmidt out! 

When was the last starting lineup with no Leinster backs in it?

Golden wrote:His Ulster Bias is ridiculous. 

6/15 for Irelands 3rd province while the league toppers only get 5 (not including Henshaw yet...)  

Schmidt out! 

Wait until Earls inevitably gets injured and Gilroy steps in

fa0019 wrote:I hope they go for it though. Go out to play high risk rugby and try and snatch a test win. It can be done. I still think a 10-12 flyhalf combo will serve opposition teams best vs. SA (well NZ don't need one but everyone else does).

Luke Marshall at 12 started his career at flyhalf and he certainly has the range of passing you'd expect from a former 10 and is a second playmaker in the back line. He is arguably as good at Jackson as kicking for position, as he has a very long kicking range. Ulster pair them together in midfield (Jackson at 10, Marshall at 13) and Marshall normally steps into the out half role when we need to clear the ball out of our 22. Henshaw and Payne at 13 and 15 also offer other kicking options and are playmakers in their own right, so there's certainly other players who can take the pressure off Jackson.

theslosty wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I like that team, one of the best that Schmidt has picked. Shame Olding didn't make the bench ahead of Madigan though.

For all Madigan's flaws it's a bit of a leap to start suggesting Olding is a superior 10. He doesn't even  have any goalkicking experience.

You're right that Madigan is a better 10 than Olding. Was just excited and hoped to see Olding in the squad.

marty2086 wrote:

Golden wrote:His Ulster Bias is ridiculous. 

6/15 for Irelands 3rd province while the league toppers only get 5 (not including Henshaw yet...)  

Schmidt out! 

Wait until Earls inevitably gets injured and Gilroy steps in

Steady on there...

Actually, you're probably right that Earls will get injured.

What time is kick off in the UK?

The IRFU says its 5pm and Sky say 4pm

Sky seem to be right

16:00 UK time marty

eirebilly wrote:16:00 UK time marty

Was afraid it was, just realised I've booked myself up for the start of the 3rd test

eirebilly wrote:

theslosty wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I like that team, one of the best that Schmidt has picked. Shame Olding didn't make the bench ahead of Madigan though.

For all Madigan's flaws it's a bit of a leap to start suggesting Olding is a superior 10. He doesn't even  have any goalkicking experience.

You're right that Madigan is a better 10 than Olding. Was just excited and hoped to see Olding in the squad.

Not sure there's that much evidence to say who is the better 10 between Madigan and Olding, but Madigan is undoubtedly in because he's the most experienced (and best) goal kicker in the squad. If Jackson is having a bad day off the tee Joe at least has some insurance.

Schmidt now has fans thinking they've won the game before it kicks off.

Schmidt Out!!!

Nope, we will still lose. It will be a more entertaining loss though

I have no issue if Ireland lose as long as the performance is good. I don't think that Ireland will beat SA but I think this is the best team that could be put out and I feel that this team may push the SA team.

profitius wrote:

Sin é wrote:TOD is getting married on the day of the 3rd test. Think Schmidt should have brought him for the other 2 though.

Tbh, it doesn't look very professional of TOD to arrange his wedding for that date. He knew there was a tour coming up.

When that was booked, TOD had probably been dropped by Schmidt and didn't know where or what he would be doing or whether he would ever be picked for Ireland again. People like BOD, POC & Sexton (who all got married in the last couple of years) always knew that if fit they would be going on tour.

15 Willie le Roux, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Lionel Mapoe, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Lwazi Mvovo, 10 Pat Lambie, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Siya Kolisi, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Julian Redelinghuys, 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 20 Warren Whiteley, 21 Rudy Paige 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 Jesse Kriel


Lookingat the matchday 23 I think the pack is a solid one, first choice tight five, solid backrow, excited to see Kolisi in a Bok jersey for 80 minutes, well will likely be 60 minutes.

I am not happy about Vermeulen en Louw being selected, they left for money, that is their priority.

But nevertheless a good pack.

Faf de Klerk deserves his chance and those that have not seen him play yet are in for a treat. Lambie looked solid since returning from injury and should control the match better than Jantjies, however Jantjies in the second half can excite if he isn't too predictable with his inside pass.

De Allende has not yet hit top form, so from that persepctive a bit of a worry but Mapoe outside of him has had a monster Super xv.

Not happy about Mvovo, never rated him. would prefer Kriel or the Lion (Coetzee) there.

travis is an exciting prospect.

How the F...l Mbonambi is there in place of Marx is a mystery, ...well no it isn't.

Whether Fekile Mbalula will be happywith the make up of the team is anyone's guess.

That pack should easily control the Irish pack how ever Ireland have the advantage in the backs I feel.
Ireland will need to spread the ball as much as possible and try to tire this big South African team, should be a good game and I am quietly confident.

Bok backline certainly is a new one, Faf, Ismael and Mapoe all in reality new comers.

They might surprise though.

I think that is what most South Africans are curious about, will Allister Coetzee play his conservative style and grind out a win, or will he change the culture of this team and have them express themselves with ball in hand?

I think that they may take the conservative approach myself there Biltong. If Ireland can get some sort of parity in the forwards then I think that they will put your lads under loads of pressure in the backs.

Well all will be revealed this weekend

Just watching some highlights from back in the day- the Battle of Pretoria

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hekw9Q0b_eI

Different times in test rugby! If plays out like that on Saturday we'll start off playing fifteens but finish playing sevens 

Biltong wrote:15 Willie le Roux, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Lionel Mapoe, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Lwazi Mvovo, 10 Pat Lambie, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Siya Kolisi, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Julian Redelinghuys, 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 20 Warren Whiteley, 21 Rudy Paige 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 Jesse Kriel


Lookingat the matchday 23 I think the pack is a solid one, first choice tight five, solid backrow, excited to see Kolisi in a Bok jersey for 80 minutes, well will likely be 60 minutes.

I am not happy about Vermeulen en Louw being selected, they left for money, that is their priority.

But nevertheless a good pack.

Faf de Klerk deserves his chance and those that have not seen him play yet are in for a treat. Lambie looked solid since returning from injury and should control the match better than Jantjies, however Jantjies in the second half can excite if he isn't too predictable with his inside pass.

De Allende has not yet hit top form, so from that persepctive a bit of a worry but Mapoe outside of him has had a monster Super xv.

Not happy about Mvovo, never rated him. would prefer Kriel or the Lion (Coetzee) there.

travis is an exciting prospect.

How the F...l Mbonambi is there in place of Marx is a mystery, ...well no it isn't.

Whether Fekile Mbalula will be happywith the make up of the team is anyone's guess.

I was going to ask you Biltong, how much of that selection is down to trying to meet quotas but you seem to have answered that. Is it next year that they want the 50% target met by?

marty2086 wrote:

Biltong wrote:15 Willie le Roux, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Lionel Mapoe, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Lwazi Mvovo, 10 Pat Lambie, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Siya Kolisi, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Trevor Nyakane, 18 Julian Redelinghuys, 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 20 Warren Whiteley, 21 Rudy Paige 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 Jesse Kriel


Lookingat the matchday 23 I think the pack is a solid one, first choice tight five, solid backrow, excited to see Kolisi in a Bok jersey for 80 minutes, well will likely be 60 minutes.

I am not happy about Vermeulen en Louw being selected, they left for money, that is their priority.

But nevertheless a good pack.

Faf de Klerk deserves his chance and those that have not seen him play yet are in for a treat. Lambie looked solid since returning from injury and should control the match better than Jantjies, however Jantjies in the second half can excite if he isn't too predictable with his inside pass.

De Allende has not yet hit top form, so from that persepctive a bit of a worry but Mapoe outside of him has had a monster Super xv.

Not happy about Mvovo, never rated him. would prefer Kriel or the Lion (Coetzee) there.

travis is an exciting prospect.

How the F...l Mbonambi is there in place of Marx is a mystery, ...well no it isn't.

Whether Fekile Mbalula will be happywith the make up of the team is anyone's guess.

I was going to ask you Biltong, how much of that selection is down to trying to meet quotas but you seem to have answered that. Is it next year that they want the 50% target met by?

Marty the 50% is 2019, yeah my personal opinion Marx is unfortunate that quotas will keep him out of the Springbok squad, I suspect we may lose him eventually to an overseas contract.

Mvovo in my view is and never have been an international player.

Its a sad state of affairs, though may be good for some of the NH sides, they can clock u some wins in the SH and get the monkey of their backs

I wonder how quickly they will back track on the quotas hen they start losing

I really don't understand the quota system Biltong, sorry about that. I just always thought that whoever was the best player got the nod. Is the 50% only for rugby or do SA want to introduce this to soccer and cricket as well?

marty2086 wrote:Its a sad state of affairs, though may be good for some of the NH sides, they can clock u some wins in the SH and get the monkey of their backs

I wonder how quickly they will back track on the quotas hen they start losing

You need to understand that this is all political posturing, nothing more. The ANC is running out of excuses for not achieving their goals, so sport is the last sector of SA society left to deflect attention of their misappropriation of funds, and neglect of basic services, human rights, etc.

It is a good thing that there must be transformation, I have no issue with it, I think it is being done incorrectly, but the faster the ANC pushes this issue, the sooner it will be over and then they have no excuses left and will have to become accountable.

Biltong wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Its a sad state of affairs, though may be good for some of the NH sides, they can clock u some wins in the SH and get the monkey of their backs

I wonder how quickly they will back track on the quotas hen they start losing

You need to understand that this is all political posturing, nothing more. The ANC is running out of excuses for not achieving their goals, so sport is the last sector of SA society left to deflect attention of their misappropriation of funds, and neglect of basic services, human rights, etc.

It is a good thing that there must be transformation, I have no issue with it, I think it is being done incorrectly, but the faster the ANC pushes this issue, the sooner it will be over and then they have no excuses left and will have to become accountable.

Unfortunate for those players that miss out in the meantime, also I don't know how confidence boosting it is for players in the squad who may worry they are only there to fill quotas. Not exactly a way to foster team spirit.

You probably fielded this before Biltong, but how do you think Stander will be received on his return? Any perceived difference between his path to international rugby vs Richardt Strauss?

We  have quotas in Ireland as well, at least SA are open about it .

That said pretty happy with the team Schmidt has selected. I think we can give SA a good go tomorrow.

It looks very dynamic with some decent power off the bench with Cronin, Dillane, Ruddock and Gilroy especially able to provide impact.

The injuries have actually strengthened us I feel. A lot of the guys missing, whilst big names, haven't been playing particularly well. Van Der Flier and McCloskey excepted, we probably have most of the best performing Irish players available.

O'Brien, Kearney, Bowe, Fitzgerald, Healy, Zebo and Sexton have big reputations and experience but not convinced any would add much based on recent form.

Marshes wrote:

Biltong wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Its a sad state of affairs, though may be good for some of the NH sides, they can clock u some wins in the SH and get the monkey of their backs

I wonder how quickly they will back track on the quotas hen they start losing

You need to understand that this is all political posturing, nothing more. The ANC is running out of excuses for not achieving their goals, so sport is the last sector of SA society left to deflect attention of their misappropriation of funds, and neglect of basic services, human rights, etc.

It is a good thing that there must be transformation, I have no issue with it, I think it is being done incorrectly, but the faster the ANC pushes this issue, the sooner it will be over and then they have no excuses left and will have to become accountable.

Unfortunate for those players that miss out in the meantime, also I don't know how confidence boosting it is for players in the squad who may worry they are only there to fill quotas. Not exactly a way to foster team spirit.

You probably fielded this before Biltong, but how do you think Stander will be received on his return? Any perceived difference between his path to international rugby vs Richardt Strauss?

I think Stander will be made to feel real welcome

He will likely get n hearty welcome with a tap on the back everytime he gets contact.

The biggest difference between Strauss and Stander is the fact that Stander was much more high profile when he left.

It was conveyed to us (rightly or wrongly) that he turned his back on SA rugby and committed to an international career with Ireland.

Leaves a bit of that "trator" taste in the mouth.

I suspect it depends very much how he reacts when th crowd boos him initially. They forget easily if he doesn't react. The trouble comes when he does.

Biltong wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Biltong wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Its a sad state of affairs, though may be good for some of the NH sides, they can clock u some wins in the SH and get the monkey of their backs

I wonder how quickly they will back track on the quotas hen they start losing

You need to understand that this is all political posturing, nothing more. The ANC is running out of excuses for not achieving their goals, so sport is the last sector of SA society left to deflect attention of their misappropriation of funds, and neglect of basic services, human rights, etc.

It is a good thing that there must be transformation, I have no issue with it, I think it is being done incorrectly, but the faster the ANC pushes this issue, the sooner it will be over and then they have no excuses left and will have to become accountable.

Unfortunate for those players that miss out in the meantime, also I don't know how confidence boosting it is for players in the squad who may worry they are only there to fill quotas. Not exactly a way to foster team spirit.

You probably fielded this before Biltong, but how do you think Stander will be received on his return? Any perceived difference between his path to international rugby vs Richardt Strauss?

I think Stander will be made to feel real welcome

He will likely get n hearty welcome with a tap on the back everytime he gets contact.

The biggest difference between Strauss and Stander is the fact that Stander was much more high profile when he left.

It was conveyed to us (rightly or wrongly) that he turned his back on SA rugby and committed to an international career with Ireland.

Leaves a bit of that "trator" taste in the mouth.

I suspect it depends very much how he reacts when th crowd boos him initially. They forget easily if he doesn't react. The trouble comes when he does.

Ha fair enough, I hope he doesn't respond to the crowd, or the SA pack will be queuing up to get at him! I can imagine a very friendly hello for CJ from Eben et al.

The way it's portrayed in Ireland is he never had a chance at international in SA and was deemed too small to ever be a bok, no surprise the media spins it either way!

I think Eben will literally have him locked on the minute Stander has the ball. The boks actually gave Strauss a tough time when he first played for them... I think Stander will get far worse. The crowd too, lucky its not in the versfeld but Newlands will now see 2 reasons to hate him. Some players will brush it off, some get wound into it?

BB - Think it will be as bad as puke watson's first game at the versfeld after the jersey revelations??? Probably not as...

This is new to me, the etiquette.

How is Stander meant to react? I mean, in order to get an easier ride?

Marshes wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Biltong wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Its a sad state of affairs, though may be good for some of the NH sides, they can clock u some wins in the SH and get the monkey of their backs

I wonder how quickly they will back track on the quotas hen they start losing

You need to understand that this is all political posturing, nothing more. The ANC is running out of excuses for not achieving their goals, so sport is the last sector of SA society left to deflect attention of their misappropriation of funds, and neglect of basic services, human rights, etc.

It is a good thing that there must be transformation, I have no issue with it, I think it is being done incorrectly, but the faster the ANC pushes this issue, the sooner it will be over and then they have no excuses left and will have to become accountable.

Unfortunate for those players that miss out in the meantime, also I don't know how confidence boosting it is for players in the squad who may worry they are only there to fill quotas. Not exactly a way to foster team spirit.

You probably fielded this before Biltong, but how do you think Stander will be received on his return? Any perceived difference between his path to international rugby vs Richardt Strauss?

I think Stander will be made to feel real welcome

He will likely get n hearty welcome with a tap on the back everytime he gets contact.

The biggest difference between Strauss and Stander is the fact that Stander was much more high profile when he left.

It was conveyed to us (rightly or wrongly) that he turned his back on SA rugby and committed to an international career with Ireland.

Leaves a bit of that "trator" taste in the mouth.

I suspect it depends very much how he reacts when th crowd boos him initially. They forget easily if he doesn't react. The trouble comes when he does.

Ha fair enough, I hope he doesn't respond to the crowd, or the SA pack will be queuing up to get at him! I can imagine a very friendly hello for CJ from Eben et al.

The way it's portrayed in Ireland is he never had a chance at international in SA and was deemed too small to ever be a bok, no surprise the media spins it either way!

Not the best excuse when the 2 guys locking down on the SA flank tomorrow are both smaller than him; weight and height wise.

SecretFly wrote:This is new to me, the etiquette.  

How is Stander meant to react?  I mean, in order to get an easier ride?

grin and bear it.. try and gain some respect by not reacting and simply putting a shift in.

fa0019 wrote:I think Eben will literally have him locked on the minute Stander has the ball. The boks actually gave Strauss a tough time when he first played for them... I think Stander will get far worse. The crowd too, lucky its not in the versfeld but Newlands will now see 2 reasons to hate him. Some players will brush it off, some get wound into it?

BB - Think it will be as bad as puke watson's first game at the versfeld after the jersey revelations??? Probably not as...

FA at least Stander never disrespected the jersey.

But regardless of the how, why and because players like Stander in my books will always be traitors, nothing will change that.

From what I have seen from CJ at Munster, he has a very good temperament so I don't expect him to get phased by the crowd.

I also don't think that he will shy away from the contact as he has a point to prove as much as those that consider him a traitor.

fa0019 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:This is new to me, the etiquette.  

How is Stander meant to react?  I mean, in order to get an easier ride?

grin and bear it.. try and gain some respect by not reacting and simply putting a shift in.

Emmm.  Still don't quite get it.  He's a rugby player.  Rugby players, the vast majority of them, always just get on with it.  He's hardly going to be hoisting two fingers at the crowd or sticking out his tongue and taunting them if he scores a try.

First things first, he wouldn't last long in that Irish side if he did - Joe would drop him like a brick.  

Anyway.  That's the story of Stander.  One man - two versions.

Crowd and South African players:  "So you think you can snub us and go play International for someone else, traitor?  We'll let you know how that feels"
Stander: "So I'm not good enough to play for my own Nation.  Well, hopefully I'll prove some people wrong."

Yeah, we seem to have a lot of these traitors these days, every dog with a pound to spare is milking the system.

Nothing we can do about it, our politics and economy encourages it.

Those who benefit from it smiles and claims them as their own, so we (well I) just speak my mind.

Simples

Its a shame POC isn't still around, I would have loved to see his reaction if Etzebeth starts kicking off!

I am Irish born and bred but have lived close to 20 years in Holland and even have Dutch nationality and a Dutch passport.

If I was ever any good at anything that would enable me to represent Holland, I still would not do it as I am Irish. I just don't get how people can do that myself.

I actually found myself being more patriotic for Ireland after leaving the sod.

Throwing the word traitor around is a bit strong! Not like anyone is whiter than white in the regards to picking players born overseas.

Its not like he was Mouritz Botha slugging it out in the boland reserve team. Botha never got abuse and in fact got respect if anything else.

Stander left after his first season after being captain of the baby boks, started all games in SR for the bulls that season and was asked to join a 50 man bok training squad (which he declined). He didn't stick it out, wasn't being ignored and the bulls especially were very disappointed he left.

All we have is his word which is put under serious question given Meyer capped equally sized chaps at flanker inc. the 2 he will face on Saturday. Hell, Meyer capped Brussow at 180cm and almost called up Deon Fourie too... all 175cm of him.

That's what people see at the moment. In the end he made his decision. He could have stuck it out a few more years and seen how it goes but that was his decision in the end. Had that been the case I don't think anyone would have complained.

Traitor, hmm a little harsh perhaps. Mercenary... probably fair. I would say I reckon he was very young at the time, 21. Sure he's old enough but whilst I know he says he doesn't regret it... things we do/say when we're young huh.