Ireland lack creativity, speed, depth and Power

Andy Howells in the Western Mail

SCHMIDT A MASTER OF MASKING OVER IRISH DEFICIENCIES
The success of Ireland’s provinces in Europe over the years has baffled many shrewd observers in Wales, because on paper our regions were just as good playing wise.

Suddenly, though, Joe Schmidt has for the Irish national team winning, the men in green having providing back-to-back Six Nations titles.

They have a master organiser in Schmidt and somehow his guile has managed to pull the wool over the eyes of the opposition, for Ireland lack creativity, speed, depth and power.

Joe Schmidt
But they are brimming with confidence, know how to get a lead and protect it with their one-up rugby.

Make them chase a game and it could be a different story.,.. as Wales proved in winning in Dublin ahead of the tournament.



As a Wales fan with an Irish father I find this a very strange bit of reporting - creativity is not what it was when Leinster were in their prime under Joe but depth and power?

I'm hoping Ireland are building we've yet to see the full test side at full tilt - probably Sunday will be the first time this tournament - I hope Wales get the bonus point against Fiji tonight just hope this reporting is not typical of what most people in Wales believe - do Ireland really lack the tools to go further?

Not in the slightest. I think most people in Wales have a hell of a lot of respect and admiration for this Ireland side, it's coaches and their provinces, all four are now very good teams.

Andy Howell is an odd fruit. He reminds me of the reported character from the TV series "Dads Army" many years ago.

He has his own mind and view on the game, probably watching a different sport, and loves to be as sensationalistic as possible. His dream job would be working for the sun, but he is not a good enough reporter...

maestegmafia wrote:Andy Howell is an odd fruit. He reminds me of the reported character from the TV series "Dads Army" many years ago.

Spot on! I wish I'd seen that earlier.

no I truly think Ireland has, and probably for the first time in RWC history, all that is needed to go further. Hope to be wrong tough

Ireland look a good side but I'm not convinced they've got all these extra gears and talk of Schmidt putting on the handbrake is hopeful guesswork really. I think what you see is what you get. A difficult side to beat and in the NH pack (with Wales, England and France) chasing the Rugby Championship sides.

Ireland have a pretty easy pool but I think a quarter-final of death awaits them. You really wouldn't want to face NZ or Argentina in the quarter-finals.

Having said that, Howells is a bit of a twit though

actually I think they are a very complete team and I can't see many weak points in their game

aqualung wrote:actually I think they are a very complete team and I can't see many weak points in their game

They are one or two injuries away from being seriously being weekend. If they lost Sexton or Kearney I do not think they would be half the team they could be. If they had the injuries like we have (Wales) then I doubt they would get out of their group. But saying that, we seem to be coping at the moment, so perhaps they could, but I would not have though it.

Well as an Ireland fan I would say there is some truth here - I don't think we have the pace, power or strike runners of some of the other top sides, or the skill levels of NZ.

I also think that the game plan is a bit more risk free that at Leinster and that this down to resources and tighter defenses in internationals versus club rugby - less time training as a group to get the slick timing.

However I think we do have the ability to vary the game plan and have a lot of power plays we haven't seen yet - there has been a big evolution from the warm-ups and 6N to what we are seeing now in terms of attacking play, albeit against weaker opposition.

I do think we'll tighten up a bit against France and assuming we get to the knock out stages but also think we will take it one game at a time and vary things based on where Schmidt perceives the opposition have weakness.

Ireland puzzle even us Irish fans.  So I guess it's not all that surprising that an observing Welsh man would be scratching his perplexed head a little.

Though I'd disagree completely with the theory that Welsh Regional sides over the years have been just as good as their Irish Provincial colleagues.  When Munster were strong in the big, physical attritional rugby department, few sides in Europe nevermind Pro12 could live with them.  And when Leinster were flying, they were the prettiest yet most lethal side in Europe too.
So I can't see where Howell is coming from on that particular point.

The International side.  Before Schmidt came in, Ireland were 9th in the World and the players had quite obviously downed tools to a degree to get rid of a coach or coaches they no longer wanted (especially given that the WC was approaching)  The players were talking with their performances - "we want a new coach to take us to the WC"

So when Schmidt came in, what happened?  Well, Ireland immediately made New Zealand sweat for a victory and went on to win the Six Nations.  They also scored most tries in that first 6N year under Schmidt.  So in a sense, it could be argued that he began International as he left off in Provincial.

But then the WC had to be thought about.  And of course, Joe is now famous for thinking.  So that's what he's been thinking about ever since.

Ireland went ahead and just about won another 6N at the beginning of this year.  This time they scored a miserly 8 tries (on par with Italy) and played some defensive obsessed rugby that was constantly derided as 'boring' and non-rugby.

But look at the stats now as this WC competition gets under way.  Ireland's stats in many departments are up there with NZ. Australia and South Africa's.  Yes, they've had two easy sides to start with (though Canada looked far from easy when threatening to undo Italy).  
The more visually noteworthy (and noted!) sides like Argentina, Scotland, Wales (two home games) and England (home WC), even France, aren't in that zone yet despite the supposed high jinx more attractive, creative rugby.
And a 'shrewd observer' might see that the Ireland team are back stretching themselves to score tries and not simply strangling the opposition with defence.  So this WC-Ireland is already looking more like the 2014 version than the 2015 version.  Is that chance or is that pre-planned?  

But still the overview seems to be that when compared to the rest of the contenders (NZ, AUS, WALES, ARG, ENGLAND, SA, FRANCE), Ireland look positively pedestrian and limited (as Howell's comments prove).  So what are 'shrewd observers' looking at?

The wheels of course could come off at any time.  But right now, Ireland don't look like they're trying and yet have amassed some handsome stats.  Others are entertaining the crowds with offloads, shimmies, 'creative' counter-attacks and explosive aggression in the tight and yet are still struggling in the stats.

stevetynant wrote:Andy Howells in the Western Mail  

SCHMIDT A MASTER OF MASKING OVER IRISH DEFICIENCIES
The success of Ireland’s provinces in Europe over the years has baffled many shrewd observers in Wales, because on paper our regions were just as good playing wise.

Suddenly, though, Joe Schmidt has for the Irish national team winning, the men in green having providing back-to-back Six Nations titles.

They have a master organiser in Schmidt and somehow his guile has managed to pull the wool over the eyes of the opposition, for Ireland lack creativity, speed, depth and power.

Joe Schmidt
But they are brimming with confidence, know how to get a lead and protect it with their one-up rugby.

Make them chase a game and it could be a different story.,.. as Wales proved in winning in Dublin ahead of the tournament.



As a Wales fan with an Irish father I find this a very strange bit of reporting - creativity is not what it was when Leinster were in their prime under Joe but depth and power?

I'm hoping Ireland are building we've yet to see the full test side at full tilt - probably Sunday will be the first time this tournament - I hope Wales get the bonus point against Fiji tonight just hope this reporting is not typical of what most people in Wales believe - do Ireland really lack the tools to go further?

Surely he's talking about England....

Ireland   England lack creativity, speed, depth dynamism and Power

SecretFly wrote:Ireland puzzle even us Irish fans.  So I guess it's not all that surprising that an observing Welsh man would be scratching his perplexed head a little.

Though I'd disagree completely with the theory that Welsh Regional sides over the years have been just as good as their Irish Provincial colleagues.  When Munster were strong in the big, physical attritional rugby department, few sides in Europe nevermind Pro12 could live with them.  And when Leinster were flying, they were the prettiest yet most lethal side in Europe too.
So I can't see where Howell is coming from on that particular point.

The International side.  Before Schmidt came in, Ireland were 9th in the World and the players had quite obviously downed tools to a degree to get rid of a coach or coaches they no longer wanted (especially given that the WC was approaching)  The players were talking with their performances - "we want a new coach to take us to the WC"

So when Schmidt came in, what happened?  Well, Ireland immediately made New Zealand sweat for a victory and went on to win the Six Nations.  They also scored most tries in that first 6N year under Schmidt.  So in a sense, it could be argued that he began International as he left off in Provincial.

But then the WC had to be thought about.  And of course, Joe is now famous for thinking.  So that's what he's been thinking about ever since.

Ireland went ahead and just about won another 6N at the beginning of this year.  This time they scored a miserly 8 tries (on par with Italy) and played some defensive obsessed rugby that was constantly derided as 'boring' and non-rugby.

But look at the stats now as this WC competition gets under way.  Ireland's stats in many departments are up there with NZ. Australia and South Africa's.  Yes, they've had two easy sides to start with (though Canada looked far from easy when threatening to undo Italy).  
The more visually noteworthy (and noted!) sides like Argentina, Scotland, Wales (two home games) and England (home WC), even France, aren't in that zone yet despite the supposed high jinx more attractive, creative rugby.
And a 'shrewd observer' might see that the Ireland team are back stretching themselves to score tries and not simply strangling the opposition with defence.  So this WC-Ireland is already looking more like the 2014 version than the 2015 version.  Is that chance or is that pre-planned?  

But still the overview seems to be that when compared to the rest of the contenders (NZ, AUS, WALES, ARG, ENGLAND, SA, FRANCE), Ireland look positively pedestrian and limited (as Howell's comments prove).  So what are 'shrewd observers' looking at?

The wheels of course could come off at any time.  But right now, Ireland don't look like they're trying and yet have amassed some handsome stats.  Others are entertaining the crowds with offloads, shimmies, 'creative' counter-attacks and explosive aggression in the tight and yet are still struggling in the stats.

usual Love sacks coming from those who DID NOT win the silverware. I was in Rome this year and I can assure you few years ago Ireland wouldn't have won that one. Thay kept on playing phace after phase, with patience, eroding defence and forcing our discipline since we imploded in 14 men. Few years ago Ireland would have started to throw senseless kicks in the air. For me it's a matter of mental strenghtness and self-belief, talent has Always been there

love Sacks?

Surely a sign of a good coach is that he can mask deficiencies? Presumably that's the point of training?!

The quarter final will be an interesting game for them, Argentina have been playing well I think and of course they would have to beat France to avoid NZ. There are some really good games (as a neutral) coming up there.

if Ireland wanna win the whole thing will have to cope with NZ sooner or later.

Argentina looking really strong and definitely not to be look passed as real contenders. I think they are stronger than France and as likely to reach the final as any of the sides in this side of the draw.

rodders wrote:Argentina looking really strong and definitely not to be look passed as real contenders. I think they are stronger than France and as likely to reach the final as any of the sides in this side of the draw.

definitely agree

aqualung wrote:

rodders wrote:Argentina looking really strong and definitely not to be look passed as real contenders. I think they are stronger than France and as likely to reach the final as any of the sides in this side of the draw.

definitely agree

Yup agreed- with the exception of Australia irrespective of how Ireland do against France they are going to have to play one of the form sides in the competition so far whichever it is. As for Joe's Ireland I think its his strength to use the tools he has available where the team is the important thing not the individual. Every side has their key players that make a difference but Ireland's strength is their growing depth through the regions and competition for places - sorry but how Andy Howells has a job sometimes mystifies me.

Lacking Creativity: Correct. Ireland could do with a BOD type of flair player. Having said that there are some creative players in the squad like Sexton, Zebo and Madigan but overall its an area of weakness.

Lacking Speed: Don't agree. To give an example Dave Kearney is sometimes criticised about his lack of speed but he is very fast over short distances, changing direction, footwork etc so in those instances he is faster than most.

Lacking Power: Maybe in the backline, maybe but certainly not up front.

Depth: In one or two areas theres a depth problem but what team can't say that? Trimble, Martin Moore, Ruddock, Olding, O'Donnell, Mike Sherry, Conan, Kilcoyne, McCloskey are some of the players who are not in the squad for various reasons.


Areas to improve for Ireland is creativity and depth at tighthead, hooker, outhalf and scrum half.

I think they are talented enough.

They need to have the mentality to run at the front and beat whoever is put in their way as the stakes rise.

creativity - Sexton and Murray
speed - Zebo and Earls
depth - This is Ireland's deepest ever squad
power - Henderson, SOB, Healy etc.

Not sure I agree. Ireland doesnt have a perfect team/squad but it is up there with the best at the moment.

boomeranga wrote:I think they are talented enough.

They need to have the mentality to run at the front and beat whoever is put in their way as the stakes rise.

Is there any merit in the article - yes. The head scratching part is that despite the shortcomings in the Ireland side they still have won back to back 6N, so that is an indictment of the rest of the 6N.

Ireland have never beaten the ABs nor progressed beyond the quarter finals. To do so will require a mentality hitherto unseen, so they don't know whether they have it and neither does anyone else. Ireland have been close before but the hard facts suggest it would be a major achievement to reach the semi-final, and if they do that will probably exhaust all their meagre reserves of creativity, speed, depth and power.

Fairly happy some folks feel the need to write such articles to be honest. Means we're worth talking about !

I'd like to address the perceived lack of Irish skill. Some journalists (and Gatty) like to talk about how Ireland sit back and play zero rugby. It appears as though they consider what Ireland do particularly well (exit strategy, retention phase play) as meritless, and not worthy to be labelled as "rugby". The notion is baloney. Ireland are probably the best team at the aerial game in the competition. That takes a hell of a lot of skill - Sexton is a very skilful kicker, as is Murray. The Kearneys and Bowe (not to mention Zebo, Henshaw, Payne and even Madigan) are fantastic in the air, a skill that can't really be learned. You either have it or you don't. It plays towards the natural strengths of our squad.

To some, if you don't play like NZ, you're not skilful. Thats a terrible trap to fall into - try and play like NZ against NZ and they are going to whoop you. There's more than 1 way to play the game folks. Variety shouldn't be knocked.

LordDowlais wrote:

aqualung wrote:actually I think they are a very complete team and I can't see many weak points in their game

They are one or two injuries away from being seriously being weekend. If they lost Sexton or Kearney I do not think they would be half the team they could be. If they had the injuries like we have (Wales) then I doubt they would get out of their group. But saying that, we seem to be coping at the moment, so perhaps they could, but I would not have though it.

I think they're just one or two DAYS from being seriously on the weekend, not injuries!

LordDowlais wrote:

aqualung wrote:actually I think they are a very complete team and I can't see many weak points in their game

They are one or two injuries away from being seriously being weekend. If they lost Sexton or Kearney I do not think they would be half the team they could be. If they had the injuries like we have (Wales) then I doubt they would get out of their group. But saying that, we seem to be coping at the moment, so perhaps they could, but I would not have though it.

Well, we certainly wouldn't want to go being seriously being weekend.

Howell hints at one or two points that have been raised and discussed in Ireland before. Unfortunately he's such an Irish-phobic clickbait peddler that it's hard to take anything he writes seriously. I'd pay him about as much attention as I would Neil Francis.

We've scored 13 tries in two games, albeit against weaker opposition (though Canada are my new second favourite team with their high-tempo attacking play). Putting away weaker teams is something we used to struggle with and we've seen shown a lot more than one out runners protecting a lead. Like yourself Steve I'm hoping there's even more to come

LordDowlais wrote:

aqualung wrote:actually I think they are a very complete team and I can't see many weak points in their game

They are one or two injuries away from being seriously being weekend. If they lost Sexton or Kearney I do not think they would be half the team they could be. If they had the injuries like we have (Wales) then I doubt they would get out of their group. But saying that, we seem to be coping at the moment, so perhaps they could, but I would not have though it.

Well, they haven't had Rob Kearney for their last pool match or this weekend's pool match against Italy. So you think they will not be half the team they could be as a result.

They haven't had Henshaw and Payne - first selection pairing - for 3 or 4 matches - and they don't have Payne against Italy.

If they had the injuries that Wales have had - full-back, scrum-half, centre, and a wing - you doubt they would get out their group?

What rugby world cup have you been watching?

The LD, CN parallel universe world cup

maestegmafia wrote:Not in the slightest. I think most people in Wales have a hell of a lot of respect and admiration for this Ireland side, it's coaches and their provinces, all four are now very good teams.

Andy Howell is an odd fruit. He reminds me of the reported character from the TV series "Dads Army" many years ago.

He has his own mind and view on the game, probably watching a different sport, and loves to be as sensationalistic as possible. His dream job would be working for the sun, but he is not a good enough reporter...

^ THIS

The reason Wales and Ireland have closed the gap on England since the 1990's is because we pooled our resources and butt heads all the time.  Ireland have brilliant depth and some fantastic players, Wales Vs Ireland is a 50/50 game and having us play each other pre-world cup was a brilliant deal for both teams.  Oh and their total píss heads also which makes for a great party when were both playing each other for a Grand Slam
We luvs the Irish really.

Edit: oh all Irish refs should be burnt and eaten by cannibals...

maestegmafia wrote:Andy Howell is an odd fruit. He reminds me of the reported character from the TV series "Dads Army" many years ago.

He has his own mind and view on the game, probably watching a different sport, and loves to be as sensationalistic as possible. His dream job would be working for the sun, but he is not a good enough reporter...

Yeah, I was going to respond to this in some depth but I'm aware of his style and it's hardly worth wasting time over. We do have deficiencies in the players we have available and our coaching staff have done a brilliant job of masking them. What coaching is, is getting the best possible results with the players you have so the more you point out what we lack the more you credit them. Especially in areas like the centre where we were so reliant on D'Arcy and BOD, the transition has been better than even our wildest dreams could have predicted before Schmidt took over. The next big deal is replacing O'Connell but I back them to manage that as well. But if Henderson replaces him, it addresses another big deficiency we've had which is ball carrying and physicality.

What GOOD coach doesnt play to his teams strengths and try and hide his teams weaknesses?

To say the Irish lack depth is insane after what they did to us in Cardiff.