England v Australia: 3rd Test, Edgbaston

First topic message reminder :

England:
A Lyth, AN Cook*, IR Bell, JE Root, JM Bairstow, BA Stokes, JC Buttler†, MM Ali, SCJ Broad, JM Anderson, ST Finn

Australia:
CJL Rogers, DA Warner, SPD Smith, MJ Clarke*, AC Voges, MR Marsh, PM Nevill†, MG Johnson, MA Starc, JR Hazlewood, NM Lyon

Gooseberry wrote:

KP_fan wrote:commentators on TV and on this forum..already criticizing ali....his exploits with ball in the last two games already forgotten
I made the point he is under scanner every game

346-8 is exploits?

5 for a 130 with the ball and 92 runs with the bat in the game at Cardiff vs the Australians in a high pressure Ashes opener is a "feat"

you've gotta leave him for another 4 to 5 games without any criticism.......and odds are that in the next 5 games he will deliver another "feat"....and if he doesn't then you can gently start the criticism...and gradually build it up if he continues to not deliver

Australia scrapped hard to be fair, on a pitch that looks pretty flat today (no cloud cover, ball didn't seem to be swinging). They had their fair share of luck, with a few play-and-misses/edges not going to hand, and two umpiring decisions that could/would have been overturned had England not been wasteful with their reviews. Still, given the pitch looks better for batting on than at any other time during the match, 121 should be more than gettable.

Interesting that Nevill was dropped once and caught twice down the leg-side (one not given of course), wonder if England will see that as a genuine weakness to exploit? Good work from Buttler BTW, he moves very well to his left - yes I know he dropped one yesterday but still made excellent ground to get there. Still have some doubts about his keeping to the spinners, but to the pacemen he does a really good job.

While it is slightly unfair to criticise Ali too much, he certainly wasn't getting as much out of the track as Lyon did, or indeed anything close to it, and that's a bit of a concern. Overall though, the spinners will probably have minimum input at TB, so wouldn't worry too much.

Real shame about Jimmy obviously, especially given his stellar record there, is he confirmed out?

Don't think everyone is kicking Ali to death exactly. No one is immune from criticism though.
In this innings , for whatever reason , his bowling was underwhelming. We aren't calling for him to be dropped ; just expressing some concern over the advantage conceded to Lyon's Australians in the spin department.

The problem is we don't have test calibre spinners waiting behind him. So we might as well have someone who holds his own with the bat until one emerges

MFC - Anderson definitely out of 4th Test. Does that also mean Australia need 9 wickets to win today?

alfie wrote:Don't think everyone is kicking Ali to death exactly.  No one is immune from criticism though.
In this innings , for whatever reason , his bowling was underwhelming.  We aren't calling for him to be dropped ; just expressing some concern over the advantage conceded to Lyon's  Australians in the spin department.

he has a rope of just ONE test
and if he has two bad tests.......calls for his dropping would start and after 3rd or 4th bad test he will be dropped.
That's what happened to Ballance....certain players has a very small rope

Yea

VTR wrote:MFC - Anderson definitely out of 4th Test. Does that also mean Australia need 9 wickets to win today?

shame. I would have thought you could just about bat with a side-strain, if needed.

He wouldn't be allowed on I don't think. He's been off the field too long

Yes MFC , Jimmy is confirmed as out of Trent Bridge ...which is a huge blow. He loves that ground.
Mind you , last year he did better with the bat there
That was a real featherbed.

Australia rode their luck , played pretty sensibly really. 97/3 for the morning. Better than the middle order...though it was easier with the old ball.
Hope England can finish the job with a minimum of fuss now : would be a good time for Lyth to get some runs...

Yep Jimmy is out.

On Ali Im far from hysterical about dropping him and have defended him countless time from the haters like MSP who had him down to fail before he was picked (against India cough)
...but he really hasnt bowled well this year and is keeping his place on batting. Thats a massive problem for your front line spinner. Hes not econical and even with 4 seamers on decent pitches hes still relied upon for a fair number of overs ...and not delivering.

Cherry pick all the performances you like but as with Stokes (who seems far more immune to the same critique, perhaps beause its easier to hide as 1 of 4 seamers and 1 of 6 batsmen)

Yes Ali is coping a disproportinate level of flack but he is replaceable (alomost like for like) and is failing in his primary role, even his good games with the ball are hardly spectacular.
In all the games since his recall this was the lowest number of runs hes conceded (next is 98).
Just as one 50 at the start of the series didnt shut up the Bell doubters one decent game in Cardiff doesnt prove hes entirely back on song or the best option for England long term. The actual quality of his bowling as well as the results isnt great.
Finn too used to get all manner of stick for his bowling of course...but then he has always bought home the bacon in terms of wickets for England. If Ali were taking 6 fors then we'd forgive a bit of waywardness, but he isnt.
Since coming back hes averaged 30 with the bat and 43 with the ball at 4 an over ... no disatourous (and better than Stokes this year) but still worrying for a guy picked as a bowler and very worrying for the balance of the side. Hes been out perfomed by Lyon in all 3 tests too.
As pointed out his batting is likely to be of greater importance at Trent Bridge and theres no real immediate question over his place, but with Anderson out there will be questionmark over Englands attack. It would be very handy if he and/or Stokes could actually turn up to support Broad Finn and whoever else they pick.

Yes its not Englands only problem but its absurd to say noone can critisize his play on the grounds he had one decent game this year. Lyth gets more stick than he does and he actually scored a century and only gets one chance to impress each innings up against the sharp end of the bowling.

By the end of this series if he still isnt delivering with the ball (which has the be the main driver behind picking your only spinner) then a change must be on the cards for the winter, unless they really do have that little faith in Rashid or a tin of custard.

temporary21 wrote:He wouldn't be allowed on I don't think. He's been off the field too long

As far as I am aware, it doesn't matter how long he has been off if he bats 11. If (please to God don't) it gets that close, I'd expect him to bat. Unless it's been confirmed that he won't by England, the laws don't preclude it I don't think.

KP_fan wrote:

alfie wrote:Don't think everyone is kicking Ali to death exactly.  No one is immune from criticism though.
In this innings , for whatever reason , his bowling was underwhelming.  We aren't calling for him to be dropped ; just expressing some concern over the advantage conceded to Lyon's  Australians in the spin department.

he has a rope of just ONE test
and if he has two bad tests.......calls for his dropping would start and after 3rd or 4th bad test he will be dropped.
That's what happened to Ballance....certain players has a very small rope

Think a few people would prefer a front line spinner like Rashid though especially after the ODis? I'm by no means a cricket expert though!

JDizzle wrote:

temporary21 wrote:He wouldn't be allowed on I don't think. He's been off the field too long

As far as I am aware, it doesn't matter how long he has been off if he bats 11. If (please to God don't) it gets that close, I'd expect him to bat. Unless it's been confirmed that he won't by England, the laws don't preclude it I don't think.

pretty sure it's something like: either the amount of time you've spent off the field, or n°7 and below, whichever comes first.

JDizzle wrote:

temporary21 wrote:He wouldn't be allowed on I don't think. He's been off the field too long

As far as I am aware, it doesn't matter how long he has been off if he bats 11. If (please to God don't) it gets that close, I'd expect him to bat. Unless it's been confirmed that he won't by England, the laws don't preclude it I don't think.

As I understand it its the length of game time youve been off the field is the length of game time you have to wait to come in to bat.

So if England Boycott for long enough and push this into a 4th day then he might be able to come in and block out the draw for another 150 odd overs.

Ah didnt know about the 7 or belwo rule. That does make sense.

Even so its a pretty rum do if he is required at all.

If Jimmy is needed with the bat, its 2-1 Australia!

Never the easy way!!!

Cook clean bowled by Starc. Cracking delivery that. England 11 for 1.

Stupendous ball.

As we were saying Ali should be opening ahead of Cook

Tell you what though Bell seems to have found his balls ( to hit for four I mean). England challenged him by sticking him at 3 and yes maybe the conditions and way Aus are pitching it up suits his game better but he looks far more confident now.
Just shows how much psychology can affect a batsman

Finger nails have already gone, I can't take this...

Send in Buttler next and tell him to hit out.

One hopes Jimmy's batting isn't needed ! But there is nothing to prevent him batting in the legal sense : as has been said , the restrictions only apply to batting in the top six after "resting" from the field for a significant time.

Nasty surprise to see Cook cleaned up like that ...good ball ; but he usually defends his stumps very well. Always get nervous when Chef goes early...

Delicious straight drive from Bell for four and another. Bell's going berserk. England 31 for 1.

Drop lol

Bell dropped at second slip by the skipper.

Bell seems dertemined that I will have to get stuck in traffic leaving the ground

Poor old Clark, lol.

Now make them pay Bell.

Lyth onto 12 and England 47 for 1 as Johnson enters the attack. England need 74 more runs to win.

Delightful atmosphere. Set to be a delightful win, as well!

Duty281 wrote:Delightful atmosphere. Set to be a delightful win, as well!

Better not tell trebellbobaggains that.

Lyth is poor.

Lyth out lbw. England 51 for 2. Cue the clamouring for him to be axed.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lyth out lbw. England 51 for 2. Cue the clambering for him to be axed.

On what basis are you keeping him in though? 6 failures in 6 innings, the Aussies have his number. Give someone else a go, they might do better

VTR wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lyth out lbw. England 51 for 2. Cue the clambering for him to be axed.

On what basis are you keeping him in though? 6 failures in 6 innings, the Aussies have his number. Give someone else a go, they might do better

Who? That's the problem. There aren't many openers knocking down the door at the moment.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

VTR wrote:MFC - Anderson definitely out of 4th Test. Does that also mean Australia need 9 wickets to win today?

shame. I would have thought you could just about bat with a side-strain, if needed.

Oh dear. given engs last 4th innings score.. one less wicket makes it an even bigger mountain to climb.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lyth out lbw. England 51 for 2. Cue the clambering for him to be axed.

well he has failed continuously but then eng don't have any good openers waiting in the wings so what do they do?

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Delightful atmosphere. Set to be a delightful win, as well!

Better not tell trebellbobaggains that.

he didn't say who for, i'm sure he's thinking Aussie.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

VTR wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lyth out lbw. England 51 for 2. Cue the clambering for him to be axed.

On what basis are you keeping him in though? 6 failures in 6 innings, the Aussies have his number. Give someone else a go, they might do better

Who? That's the problem. There aren't many openers knocking down the door at the moment.

Yep - agree potential replacements all seem to have fell out of form at exactly the wrong time! Maybe the selectors have seen someone with potential though, maybe that man is Lyth, will be interested to see what they do

We have this conversation every week.
Go back to compton, work on Lees longer term. Thats the only real option at the minute..but i cant see them rushing into it.

VTR wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lyth out lbw. England 51 for 2. Cue the clambering for him to be axed.

On what basis are you keeping him in though? 6 failures in 6 innings, the Aussies have his number. Give someone else a go, they might do better

He took a couple of good catches. And he did get a hundred against some good NZ bowlers...

But he is pushing his luck with this run of outs. Played some nice shots today - but again wound up with too few runs.
If any opener was knocking the door down , he'd be out. As it is he may get more time - unless they want to take a punt on Hales , perhaps ; with a license to attack ? Maybe are overloaded with attacking bats already...

Dont see how Hales would be any worse. Warner style atop the order, put the bowlers on the back foot

trebellbobaggins wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

VTR wrote:MFC - Anderson definitely out of 4th Test. Does that also mean Australia need 9 wickets to win today?

shame. I would have thought you could just about bat with a side-strain, if needed.

Oh dear. given engs last 4th innings score.. one less wicket makes it an even bigger mountain to climb.

Same size mountain , Trebs Just one less Sherpa

I could see them taking a punt on Hales. TB is his home ground and he is an arrogant ****er so might just have what it takes to step up. It won't be based on any FC form, or even a decent ODI record but you never know.

I know I am hard on Lyth, I would love to see him do well, but I just wonder if mentally he is tough enough for Test cricket. There is no shame in not quite making it at the top level, even if he never plays again he's been in a few winning sides and has a Test century.

trebellbobaggins wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lyth out lbw. England 51 for 2. Cue the clambering for him to be axed.

well he has failed continuously but then eng don't have any good openers waiting in the wings so what do they do?

The problem has been magnified by the top order also flopping. He has struggled but is in only his fifth test and his county cricket stats say he is better than any other option out there. In those five tests he already has a century and a half century but it is the numerous low scores people point to. Compton is an option but lest I remember people they hounded him out because he never scored fast enough. I'd stick with Lyth for now as in this test he has spent longer at the crease and got into double figures in both innings (which in this test Clark and Smith would have killed for).

That's a fair point. If he came into a top order that were performing well, as they were some years back and as Aussie have had, then it would be a lot easier to settle without being caught in a storm every innings you play.

Cooks struggles typify the problems England have had at the top.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lyth out lbw. England 51 for 2. Cue the clambering for him to be axed.

Would it be the worst call? He's played 10 innings, and one century is his only score above 40. Bear in mind that he's played all his tests so far in England, so the conditions at least should be favourable to him.

I think they should stick with him for a while, if they see something in him. However, I don't think he could have such strong complaints were he dropped. Carberry and Compton got axed after a similar number of innings, despite each having a better record, and arguably, harder test careers (Carberry certainly).

Oh, and I tried so hard to resist but the pedant in me has won out - it's "clamouring" (insistent demanding from a group), not "clambering" (awkward climbing). Sorry for that. Even I think I'm a Muppet for that.

What are these County stats that say Lyth is better than other options? He has a lower FC average than Compton or Carberry even

Its a moot point anyway, as selectors look at far more than that