Englands' 50 man Training Squad for RWC

by **LondonTiger** Wed 20 May 2015, 12:01 pm

England Rugby World Cup training squad (50)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

by **LondonTiger** Wed 20 May 2015, 12:02 pm

Stuart Lancaster wrote:We are excited to name this extended squad, which allows us to look at a wide group of players who have been pushing hard for selection in training with us or playing well for their clubs this season.

“It’s great to be able to include Alex Corbisiero, Joe Launchbury, Ben Morgan, Ed Slater and David Wilson. They all missed the Six Nations because of injury and are close to returning to play or have recently begun playing again.

“There are a lot of experienced internationals within the squad with the likes of Chris Ashton and David Strettle, who are in great form for Saracens, coming back.

“It’s also good to have young players like Luke Cowan-Dickie, Elliot Daly, Maro Itoje and Henry Slade in there. They have come through our player development pathway and had great seasons for their clubs.

“Ben Foden, Joe Simpson and Tom Croft have not been included at this stage due to ongoing rehabilitation from injury but will hopefully come into consideration nearer the tournament.

“A number of this 50-man squad, such as Joe Launchbury, Elliot Daly, Danny Cipriani and Marland Yarde will be involved in the England XV side playing the Barbarians on 31 May following the Aviva Premiership semi-finals.

“There will also be opportunities for the likes of Dave Ewers and Christian Wade, who just missed out on the initial selection but could come back in further down the line.”

by lostinwales Wed 20 May 2015, 12:26 pm

Burgess included as a back is a bit ho hum and I am surprised at Strettle* being back in but pretty much as expected.

*Its not that I don't rate him or don't appreciate his work for Saracens I just don't think he offers us anything special at international level any more

by **LondonTiger** Wed 20 May 2015, 12:29 pm

what makes you say Burgess is included as a back?

by lostinwales Wed 20 May 2015, 12:31 pm

LondonTiger wrote:what makes you say Burgess is included as a back?

EPSN scrum etc wrote:Cross-code star Sam Burgess has been named among the backs in Stuart Lancaster's 50-man England World Cup training squad which also sees David Strettle brought back in from the cold.

Just what I read. It might just be the widespread journalistic obsession with replacing Manu with Burgess.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 20 May 2015, 12:34 pm

And something I always do with these, Academy of Origin:

Wasps 6
Leicester 6
Newcastle 4
London Irish 4
Saracens 4
Worcester 4
Harlequins 3
Exeter 3
Bristol 2
Leeds 2
Sale 1
Northampton 1
Gloucester 1

Nine players did not come through the Academy System:

Ashton, Burgess, Eastmond, Myler all from RL.
Barritt from SA, Morgan from Wales.
Burrell, Easter and Strettle played for other English sides before joining one of the 14 with academies.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 20 May 2015, 12:35 pm

RFU statement just names them alphabetically: http://www.englandrugby.com/news/england-announce-rugby-world-cup-training-group/

by Jimpy Wed 20 May 2015, 12:36 pm

I still don't think Ashton will make the WC squad, so why include him?

by lostinwales Wed 20 May 2015, 12:45 pm

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/12918012/stuart-lancaster-excited-competition-places-unveils-england-rwc-training-squad

by thomh Wed 20 May 2015, 1:12 pm

Jimpy wrote:I still don't think Ashton will make the WC squad, so why include him?

He's probably no more than a couple of injuries away from it, and ahead of Wade, so why not? I'm sure there are 10-15 players there who Lancaster doesn't envision picking for the final squad, but you still plan for a crisis.

by yappysnap Wed 20 May 2015, 1:24 pm

Bit surprised Wade isn't in there to start with but otherwise pretty much as expected.

by The Great Aukster Wed 20 May 2015, 1:25 pm

Has Lancaster done an ECB?

Armitage and Abendanon were led into thinking they had a chance and now they neither get a mention in a bloated 50 man squad nor an additional 5 under consideration - so is that the foreign selection issue finally put to bed?

by yappysnap Wed 20 May 2015, 1:26 pm

Oh and no Joe Simpson which is a surprise

by broadlandboy Wed 20 May 2015, 1:30 pm

Does make me scratch my head when those that castigate Manu call for Steffon to be included while under investigation for assault while being too drunk to remember.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 20 May 2015, 1:31 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Has Lancaster done an ECB?

Armitage and Abendanon were led into thinking they had a chance and now they neither get a mention in a bloated 50 man squad nor an additional 5 under consideration - so is that the foreign selection issue finally put to bed?

Congratulations on reaching my tolerance threshold. Some points before I place you on ignore:

1) RW ask that all countries lodge a 50 man extended squad with them.
2) At no point did Lancaster tell them they stood a chance.

Good bye

by **LondonTiger** Wed 20 May 2015, 1:34 pm

yappysnap wrote:Oh and no Joe Simpson which is a surprise

Not really.

1) He is injured and just had surgery so is alongside Croft and Foden as people they will keep in contact with
2) Disckson started ahead of him for Saxons v Wolfhounds

by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 May 2015, 1:39 pm

Roll on the warm ups now!

by thomh Wed 20 May 2015, 1:49 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Has Lancaster done an ECB?

Armitage and Abendanon were led into thinking they had a chance and now they neither get a mention in a bloated 50 man squad nor an additional 5 under consideration - so is that the foreign selection issue finally put to bed?

Pietersen is alleged to have been misled into giving up a lucrative IPL contract in the mistaken belief that it would give him a shot at England selection. That's the complete opposite of Armitage and Abendanon, both of whom have taken up lucrative contracts knowing that it prohibited them from England selection.

Even if Armitage and Abendanon has been led into thinking they were being considered, neither of them has done anything or passed up any opportunity on that basis, so it's irrelevant.

by lostinwales Wed 20 May 2015, 1:50 pm

Ben Foden, Joe Simpson and Tom Croft have not been included at this stage due to ongoing rehabilitation from injury but will hopefully come into consideration nearer the tournament.

There will also be opportunities for the likes of Dave Ewers and Christian Wade who just missed out on the initial selection but could come back in further down the line.

Of the other possibilities that come to mind that were not mentioned at all I can think of Kitchener, Roko, Thomas, and possibly Pennell

by The Great Aukster Wed 20 May 2015, 1:57 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Has Lancaster done an ECB?

Armitage and Abendanon were led into thinking they had a chance and now they neither get a mention in a bloated 50 man squad nor an additional 5 under consideration - so is that the foreign selection issue finally put to bed?

Congratulations on reaching my tolerance threshold. Some points before I place you on ignore:

1) RW ask that all countries lodge a 50 man extended squad with them.
2) At no point did Lancaster tell them they stood a chance.

Good bye

1. Why have France been allowed to name a 36 man squad and keep 14 names secret? Would naming a reduced number not have been a prudent thing to do given the uncertainty over some unfit players? Of course Lancaster may be indirectly telling the media some players aren't in the running.

2. The story had surprising legs given that fairly trusted media had just made it up. It's surprising that Lancaster just didn't quash the rumours at the outset if foreign based players never stood a chance, rather than taking such a detached approach.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11518411/England-likely-to-invoke-exceptional-circumstances-clause-to-pick-Steffon-Armitage-and-Nick-Abendanon.html

by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 May 2015, 2:00 pm

They are in the running if say Foden, brown, Goode, Watson all drop down injured I'd suspect Abendanon would be considered seriously. No surprise not to see them included with so many options is there?

by The Great Aukster Wed 20 May 2015, 2:03 pm

thomh wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Has Lancaster done an ECB?

Armitage and Abendanon were led into thinking they had a chance and now they neither get a mention in a bloated 50 man squad nor an additional 5 under consideration - so is that the foreign selection issue finally put to bed?

Pietersen is alleged to have been misled into giving up a lucrative IPL contract in the mistaken belief that it would give him a shot at England selection. That's the complete opposite of Armitage and Abendanon, both of whom have taken up lucrative contracts knowing that it prohibited them from England selection.

Even if Armitage and Abendanon has been led into thinking they were being considered, neither of them has done anything or passed up any opportunity on that basis, so it's irrelevant.

Thanks for the explanation thomh.

Has the policy of 'no foreign players being selected' ever been pronounced by anyone, or is that just assumed to be the case anyway?

by bluestonevedder Wed 20 May 2015, 2:04 pm

I think the line between fact and opinion in the media is often blurred.

I certainly don't ever remember SL recently saying that they were in with a shout of making the extended squad. The media seemed to hype it up on his behalf.

Anyway, the whole eligibility rule has be discussed no end and quite frankly I think everyone is seriously bored with it. I certainly am.

by HammerofThunor Wed 20 May 2015, 2:08 pm

Never had you down as a WUM (edit: @Great Aukster)

by Barney McGrew did it Wed 20 May 2015, 2:15 pm

Can hardly pick SA now he's dropped Manu. And he's already selected 4 possible FBs.

by Geordie Wed 20 May 2015, 2:27 pm

Don't think theres any surprises there...even the youngsters like Itoje were being discussed to gain experience in the wider group.

Burgess is in as a 6 not a back.

Surprised Ewers and Wade cant even make the bloomin 50 man squad mind.

And wheres Matt Garvey!!!!! furious

by Jimpy Wed 20 May 2015, 2:28 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Can hardly pick SA now he's dropped Manu. And he's already selected 4 possible FBs.

Manu has been unlucky - I mean, it's not like he tried to end another player's career by cynically and deliberately breaking his elbow.

by Tiger/Chief Wed 20 May 2015, 2:29 pm

Anyone really think that Ashton deserves his place less than Yarde or May who have been very average for average teams this year! no wonder Strettle and Ashton are back in

by thomh Wed 20 May 2015, 2:29 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Don't think theres any surprises there...even the youngsters like Itoje were being discussed to gain experience in the wider group.

Burgess is in as a 6 not a back.

Surprised Ewers and Wade cant even make the bloomin 50 man squad mind.

And wheres Matt Garvey!!!!!

Is there a quote on this? All the articles I've seen read like journalists have been briefed off the record that he's still seen by England as a 12.

by Jimpy Wed 20 May 2015, 2:30 pm

Tiger/Chief wrote:Anyone really think that Ashton deserves his place less than Yarde or May who have been very average for average teams this year! no wonder Strettle and Ashton are back in

I'd have had Wade for Ashton.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 May 2015, 2:31 pm

BBC say it's still not been made clear. The talk before was that England considered him a midfielder but he's clearly a 6.

by thomh Wed 20 May 2015, 2:31 pm

Yarde has been very good in the second half of the season, but I agree that the anti-Ashton sentiment is overdone.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 May 2015, 2:38 pm

Just struck me there's no Rokoduguni.

by Geordie Wed 20 May 2015, 2:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just struck me there's no Rokoduguni.

Good point...him and Wade missing...two wingers you might think should be in.

by Jimpy Wed 20 May 2015, 2:47 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Just struck me there's no Rokoduguni.

Good point...him and Wade missing...two wingers you might think should be in.

Roko belongs to the Army. Bath are already squabbling with them over his Bath commitments. England may have been a commitment too far....

Wade definitely.

by cb Wed 20 May 2015, 3:19 pm

I was bit surprised (like others) with Ewers missing out, because none of the other flankers are really strong ball carriers.

Other omissions Simpson (though he has an injury), Henry Thomas, and Rokoduguni has gone from starting against New Zealand to not being in a big squad. Unsure about Strettle and Ashton, neither have featured much for England recently, but are in the squad.

No Wade is disappointing but not surprising (though I still think a mistake).

Pleased with Slater.

by majesticimperialman Wed 20 May 2015, 3:35 pm

I thought Christian Wade would have been in the squad.

Is he injured or simply out of form?

Glad to see Ashton back in the squad, and Dave Strettle as well. Both seem to try scoring machines for their club. Lets hope they can bring their club form in to the national side.

by beshocked Wed 20 May 2015, 4:24 pm

Personally I think the guys unlucky to miss out

Dave Ewers
Jamie George
Christian Wade

Londontiger that really surprises me - only 1 Saints from their academy?

by Fluxy Wed 20 May 2015, 4:37 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
thomh wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Has Lancaster done an ECB?

Armitage and Abendanon were led into thinking they had a chance and now they neither get a mention in a bloated 50 man squad nor an additional 5 under consideration - so is that the foreign selection issue finally put to bed?

Pietersen is alleged to have been misled into giving up a lucrative IPL contract in the mistaken belief that it would give him a shot at England selection. That's the complete opposite of Armitage and Abendanon, both of whom have taken up lucrative contracts knowing that it prohibited them from England selection.

Even if Armitage and Abendanon has been led into thinking they were being considered, neither of them has done anything or passed up any opportunity on that basis, so it's irrelevant.

Thanks for the explanation thomh.

Has the policy of 'no foreign players being selected' ever been pronounced by anyone, or is that just assumed to be the case anyway?

I dislike all of the talk of this 'rule'. I read somewhere quite recently that the 'Special circumstances' clause was only in place of an injury crisis. Despite Armitage and Abendanon's form, talk of selection is pointless unless the players within the squad in their positions all drop down with injuries.

by propdavid_london Wed 20 May 2015, 4:45 pm

I think with Wade its very much the same issues that some had with him when he broke onto the scene. Defensive liability, but prolific try scorer.
That and perhaps a slight drop in form - but hasnt he been injured recently?

Yarde for instance has been pretty dire for Quins, but only now are we starting to see him gell with the team and start producing the goods. He has been included in the squad however, presumably based on previous England performances.

by Exiledinborders Wed 20 May 2015, 4:47 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
The story had surprising legs given that fairly trusted media had just made it up. It's surprising that Lancaster just didn't quash the rumours at the outset if foreign based players never stood a chance, rather than taking such a detached approach.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11518411/England-likely-to-invoke-exceptional-circumstances-clause-to-pick-Steffon-Armitage-and-Nick-Abendanon.html

If you think The Telegraph is a trusted source on Rugby you are deluded. They keep running the same story over and overagain because:

They cannot think of anything else to write
It is good clickbait on the website

It has been clear for months, if not years, that no foreign based players will play for England unless bubonic plague or similar wipes out the squad.

by HammerofThunor Wed 20 May 2015, 5:01 pm

beshocked wrote:Personally I think the guys unlucky to miss out

Dave Ewers
Jamie George
Christian Wade

Londontiger that really surprises me - only 1 Saints from their academy?

Although George has been good, personally I think it's much better for him to get a full preseason with his club and push forward again then be a bit part player at the world cup. It's one of the reasons I prefer guys like Easter to be the fringe players, guys who will potentially only play if there are injuries to the first choice but can in easily. Same goes with Strettle and Ashton.

by B91212 Wed 20 May 2015, 5:09 pm

beshocked wrote:Personally I think the guys unlucky to miss out

Dave Ewers
Jamie George
Christian Wade

Londontiger that really surprises me - only 1 Saints from their academy?

Yeah Northampton's academy scheme was more of a pick up young players from other clubs and refine them kind of thing for the first few years of professionalism (Hartley, Ashton, Myler, Clark) until ironically enough they poached Dusty Hare from the green house cats up the road. Saints first team is showing more academy players coming through into the first team now (Alex Waller, Heywood, Stephenson, Elliott) with more around the first team squad (Collins, Ethan Waller, Williams) but these players are currently not international standard.

I agree with your list of unlucky guys. Seems Ewers has lost out to Burgess and I would have George before Luke Cowan-Dickie as whilst I agree LCD is a talent on the occasions I have seen him his throwing has seemed iffy plus I rate George although I think the hookers in the final squad will be Hartley, Youngs & Webber anyway. Seems the England Management don't trust Wade's defense/kicking/positioning enough to consider him for international rugby.

by beshocked Wed 20 May 2015, 5:15 pm

B91212 actually now you mention it Waller is unfortunate not to be ahead of Corbisiero.

Personally I think Corbisiero has struggled for Saints in recent weeks. I guess Corbisiero is 3rd LH because he's got international experience though form wise I wouldn't have him in.

Seems a bit ironic not to pick Wade when Ashton has such a poor reputation when it comes to defence!

Though saying that I think Ashton deserves his spot, it's Strettle that I think should have been replaced by Wade.

I like Strettle but he is on the wrong side of 30 and I wouldn't say he adds more than Wade.

by thomh Wed 20 May 2015, 5:30 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
2. The story had surprising legs given that fairly trusted media had just made it up. It's surprising that Lancaster just didn't quash the rumours at the outset if foreign based players never stood a chance, rather than taking such a detached approach.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11518411/England-likely-to-invoke-exceptional-circumstances-clause-to-pick-Steffon-Armitage-and-Nick-Abendanon.html

Well even if Lancaster did consider doing it, so what? He's perfectly entitled to change his mind. It's not like he induced Armitage or Abendanon to move clubs by promising to pick them and then reneged on it.

by king_carlos Wed 20 May 2015, 6:22 pm

Beshocked wrote:Personally I think the guys unlucky to miss out

Dave Ewers
Jamie George
Christian Wade

Londontiger that really surprises me - only 1 Saints from their academy?

Agree with that Beshocked. Rokoduguni also as others have pointed out.

Given that our attack gets very lateral at times I'd quite like a winger who could offer a bit of magic down the blindside to keep the defence honest. Hence why I think a player such a Wade or Roko could be very interesting in this side and work better within our gameplan than Ashton or Strettle.

Cowan-Dickie is a prospect but Jamie George offers an all round skill set and execution of basics that would be a real asset in a RWC squad. Hartley and Youngs are guaranteed, whilst Webber has been poor for Bath he has never played poorly for England (many wanted him starting over Hartley not long ago) so he should be 3rd in the squad. If any of those get crocked we will then have Cowan-Dickie in the final squad which he really isn't ready for.

by Gooseberry Wed 20 May 2015, 7:36 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Has Lancaster done an ECB?

Armitage and Abendanon were led into thinking they had a chance and now they neither get a mention in a bloated 50 man squad nor an additional 5 under consideration - so is that the foreign selection issue finally put to bed?

Who led them into thinking that aside form the media and a few of their mates?
certainly Armitage couldnt have been dumb enough to imagine he'd be picked with the criminal charge laying over him, especially in light of Tuiallgi being formally exiled to 2016 for a much less serious assault.

by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 20 May 2015, 7:43 pm

beshocked wrote:B91212 actually now you mention it Waller is unfortunate not to be ahead of Corbisiero.

Personally I think Corbisiero has struggled for Saints in recent weeks. I guess Corbisiero is 3rd LH because he's got international experience though form wise I wouldn't have him in.

Seems a bit ironic not to pick Wade when Ashton has such a poor reputation when it comes to defence!

Though saying that I think Ashton deserves his spot, it's Strettle that I think should have been replaced by Wade.

I like Strettle but he is on the wrong side of 30 and I wouldn't say he adds more than Wade.

Corbs looked very comfortable against Dan Cole on Saturday, Cole struggled even with a stringer back 5 behind him, a good sign for both Corbs and England. Waller is a different sort of player, not destructive as a scrummager, but like another 7 at the breakdown and like most Saints academy products a superb ball handler, he also has the same sort of pace as Tom Youngs.

by yappysnap Wed 20 May 2015, 7:50 pm

propdavid_london wrote:I think with Wade its very much the same issues that some had with him when he broke onto the scene. Defensive liability, but prolific try scorer.
That and perhaps a slight drop in form - but hasnt he been injured recently?

Yarde for instance has been pretty dire for Quins, but only now are we starting to see him gell with the team and start producing the goods. He has been included in the squad however, presumably based on previous England performances.

Yarde is a very lucky boy. I think he's only in there due to previous, and because if nothing else he's a physical player.

by Geordie Wed 20 May 2015, 8:42 pm

Ultimately though...we probably will all agree the actual world cup final squad will have no surprises.

Not a bad thing...though I just have that nagging feeling that ultimately it doesn't have quite enough to go the whole way and win it.

Post World Cup ill be looking for a slight change in set up and a few players who can hopefully come in and offer a little bit more than some of the current players (maybe back row for example) ...whilst some of the new lads (Ford, Watson, Nowell etc) can really progress.

To win a World Cup I genuinely believe you need several world class players and I just don't think at the moment we have many. Though some coming through could become that good...

Just my opinon of course

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