Pro12 value - the facts

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

So smart price rather than chosen by you.

Does the CEO of the PRW think those figures are a shock?

Did the CEO of the PRW expect Pro12 to read £40M or £45M?

Seems reasonable enough to me. Smaller populations veiwing. Less commercial value. quite honestly i am suprised its that close. I take it the Gazillins promised from the nbt deal didn't appear for ther ap either then as well as the euro cup?

PRW are a bunch of complete idiots who will kill welsh rugby. Still bleating on abourt wanting to join the english leage and play semi pro in the 3rd division?

I know I shouldn't bite but I can't resist.
So just because income is lower, that means an operating model is unsustainable. Do running costs not have a bearing in matters? What about gate receipts? - the Irish sides in particular probably better the attendances of several of the Aviva clubs. Sponsorship helps getting the electricity switched on. Are we supposed to turn a blind eye to financial backing from the national bodies that comes from internationals?
No idea what the point of your OP is.
Can I respectfully suggest that, instead of spouting guff on these boards, you might want to get some sort of qualification in economics or accountancy before you start talking about something that you clearly know nothing about

Pro 12 is doing just fine. A good product, rising attendences, more than competative in europe. shame the money grabbing clowns ruined the euro cup.

TJ wrote:Pro 12 is doing just fine.  A good product, rising attendences, more than competative in europe.  shame the money grabbing clowns ruined the euro cup.

Down our way it isn't though.

That not the pro 12s issue - its the clowns in the PRW with their constant sniping and stupidity. If Ireland and Sscotland can make it work just fine why not Wales - IMO its because ireland and scotland have union control so decisions are made strategically and sensibly

The Irish are doing fine. Ulster and Munster just signed a couple of All Blacks.

Idsolated facts rarely make convincing arguments.

Clearly it's difficult to compete with teams that bring in 4 or 5 times as much cash as you from one income stream, but with incomplete data about other income streams you're not going to be giving a clear picture of anything. Bit like when certain figures in English club rugby argue against the salary cap on the basis that they are competing against Irish provinces with no salary cap, so they're clearly being unfairly hobbled by the PRL; except they leave out the figures you cite (knowing that any excess can be invested in coaching, marketing, infrastructure, academies and so on) and they decline to mention what the uncapped provinces can afford to pay.

You should devote your energies towards finding out the player wage budget, the overall operating budget and the debt held by teams across the PRL, Top14 and Pro12. Those are the comparisons that might begin to tell us whose teams are realistically going to be able to stay competitive and whose aren't.

Also, the celtic teams is such a poor umbrella term- the situations of the Irish, Welsh and Scottish teams in terms of finances are all very different and they all have different relationships with their Unions in terms of funding. Most of the arguments about the Pro12 on this site are informed by one simple fact; that the Irish teams and the Welsh teams are in very different situations and one group is very much able to remain sustainable within the Pro12 in the short term whereas the other may very well not be. So unless you have a good reason to lump the Irish and the Welsh into the same category, don't. The difference between the two groups is probably as great as the difference between the English and French.

Down your way, Dave, you have your distinct issues that have little or nothing to do with Pro12 (the old tales of Club V Regions V WRU)  A three way fight to the death that has really nothing to do with Pro12.

That's the blunt fact that needs to be put out there.  And the truth is also that if each of the four Regions joined up with the English in some sort of Anglo-Welsh League, like some of the Welsh contributors seemed to wish for most, that solution would still be no solution to the distinct issues down your way.

Why are we meant to believe that age old issues between Clubs and Regions and the Welsh Union would be solved by some PRL BTVision money?  Chunky seems to be of the opinion that everything would fall into place with an easeful Ahhhhhhh!  I can't see the logic of thinking so.  It would only further complicate the relationships and add only more friction.

Once again, meaningless waffle from the usual source. You're a trier chunkles I'll give you that and we all know god loves a trier especially the special ones

Where is Chunky? He is getting a bit of a hard time here. He must be away collecting the Nobel Prize for Economics

TJ wrote:That not the pro 12s issue - its the clowns in the PRW with their constant sniping and stupidity.  If Ireland and Sscotland can make it work just fine why not Wales - IMO its because ireland and scotland have union control so decisions are made strategically and sensibly

Yep. So I guess we're better suited to the way England do it. PRW are getting their act together I reckon. Seems they are anyway.

InjuredYetAgain wrote:Where is Chunky? He is getting a bit of a hard time here.  He must be away collecting the Nobel Prize for Economics

Chunky drops his golden eggs about the place and watches from the bushes to see what the wildlife do with them. Be warned! - Gold paint folks!
I'm afraid I tried to pawn one of them off and was arrested.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TJ wrote:That not the pro 12s issue - its the clowns in the PRW with their constant sniping and stupidity.  If Ireland and Sscotland can make it work just fine why not Wales - IMO its because ireland and scotland have union control so decisions are made strategically and sensibly

Yep. So I guess we're better suited to the way England do it. PRW are getting their act together I reckon. Seems they are anyway.

So it IS another drift towards the English League approaching again?  

With the muttering anew from Hore and CEO of PRW, it seems the phoney peace in Wales has come to an end?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TJ wrote:That not the pro 12s issue - its the clowns in the PRW with their constant sniping and stupidity.  If Ireland and Sscotland can make it work just fine why not Wales - IMO its because ireland and scotland have union control so decisions are made strategically and sensibly

Yep. So I guess we're better suited to the way England do it. PRW are getting their act together I reckon. Seems they are anyway.

I'm not convinced the way England do it is working, Dave. If reports are accurate, most of the clubs are in debt, some heavily in debt, and the clubs heavily in debt want the salary cap abolished so they can rack up an even greater debt! Against the wishes of the clubs not so heavily in debt, or not in debt at all

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TJ wrote:That not the pro 12s issue - its the clowns in the PRW with their constant sniping and stupidity.  If Ireland and Sscotland can make it work just fine why not Wales - IMO its because ireland and scotland have union control so decisions are made strategically and sensibly

Yep. So I guess we're better suited to the way England do it. PRW are getting their act together I reckon. Seems they are anyway.

Dunno why you think the english way of deficit financing and sugar dadies paying the bills works. clubs will go bust at some point and it increases the divide between the rich and poor. Ho0pe they do get thir stuff together. Me - I'd get rids of them - the PRW are idiots who are ruining welsh rugby with their constant bleating and finger pointing at anyone but themselves

SecretFly wrote:''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
So it IS another drift towards the English League approaching again?  
'''''''''''''''''''

Utter stupidity if it is - the welsh teams would ernd up playing semi pro way down the leagues. they are not going to get into the top flight as that would mean 4 ap clubs dropping down. Its the pro 12 or a welsh league of 8 teams - thats the only answer. Personally longer term I think the pro 12 could go to two divisions - that would give room for 8 welsh teams

SecretFly wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TJ wrote:That not the pro 12s issue - its the clowns in the PRW with their constant sniping and stupidity.  If Ireland and Sscotland can make it work just fine why not Wales - IMO its because ireland and scotland have union control so decisions are made strategically and sensibly

Yep. So I guess we're better suited to the way England do it. PRW are getting their act together I reckon. Seems they are anyway.

So it IS another drift towards the English League approaching again?  

With the muttering anew from Hore and CEO of PRW, it seems the phoney peace in Wales has come to an end?

Nowt phoney about it. Looks all very real to me.

The 'Peace' looks real???

Really?

TJ wrote:

SecretFly wrote:''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
So it IS another drift towards the English League approaching again?  
'''''''''''''''''''

Utter stupidity if it is - the welsh teams would ernd up playing semi pro way down the leagues.  they are not going to get into the top flight as that would mean 4 ap clubs dropping down.  Its the pro 12 or a welsh league of 8 teams - thats the only answer.  Personally longer term I think the pro 12 could go to two divisions - that would give room for 8 welsh teams

I think a pro 12 div 2 would be good. For wales it would allow you to go back to the old names, scotland 2 more teams, dunno if ireland would want any more places and then a georgian and a romanian team.

TJ wrote:I think a pro 12 div 2 would be good.  For wales it would allow you to go back to the old names, scotland 2 more teams, dunno if ireland would want any more places and then a georgian and a romanian team.  

We'd of course want the top four places in each division as would be our right of course, given our big 'eads and things and stuff.

SecretFly wrote:The 'Peace' looks real???

Really?

Very real. The mischief makers got the boot.

:-)

Cardiff Dave wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The 'Peace' looks real???

Really?

Very real. The mischief makers got the boot.

apart from the PRW

Cardiff Dave wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The 'Peace' looks real???

Really?

Very real. The mischief makers got the boot.

Seems the 'peaceful' lads are stoking up the chat again though.  After all, these threads have cropped up again.  "We ain't rightly happy no more again!!! " warnings RISE from the ashes.  Oh I might get to see this one at an IMAX - it's much better qualitee pics.

TJ wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TJ wrote:That not the pro 12s issue - its the clowns in the PRW with their constant sniping and stupidity.  If Ireland and Sscotland can make it work just fine why not Wales - IMO its because ireland and scotland have union control so decisions are made strategically and sensibly

Yep. So I guess we're better suited to the way England do it. PRW are getting their act together I reckon. Seems they are anyway.

Dunno why you think the english way of deficit financing and sugar dadies paying the bills works.  clubs will go bust at some point and it increases the divide between the rich and poor.  Ho0pe they do get thir stuff together.  Me - I'd get rids of them - the PRW are idiots who are ruining welsh rugby with their constant bleating and finger pointing at anyone but themselves

I know you have your usual agenda but not all clubs in the ap have sugar daddies or run deficit financing...

No indeed they do not. However the fact that some do reinforces the divide between the have and the have nots and concentrates talent at the top. It does not make gfor a good league long term - it will end up like the football premiership where the same few teams are at the top and the rest are second rank. I prefer a league where spending power is equalised as much as possible. Once the wage cap goes as it surely will then this is what will happen. Its a real shame. In ten years you will have a much poorer product. Sure your top teams will do very well in europe but the league will no longer be competative adn smaller teams will have no chance of doing well.

It seems Bath are pleased to announce that they only lost 3m quid this year (down from 3.8m last year).

Bath have good attendances, are doing well and they are still losing money even with a all that tv money from BT.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem =  £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

I think the figures for the Pro12 are a bit skewed here, surley between the 4 nations in the Pro12 the tele money is more than 11.5m, I know SKY are paying a hefty chunk, also the BBC pay for a lot as well, then you get the Irish and Italian channels, unless they all purchase the right to air the games from one outright bidder, which I do not think happens. I will have to check this out, because not so long ago, Roger the dodger said at an Ospreys game that having the games on the tele was the same as getting 10,000 fans through the gates at each home game money wise, and that was before SKY were invovled.

After the hatchet job the Welsh regions and their fans did on the Pro12, its surprising that the tv rights are worth 11.5 pence. Of course the ridiculed Roger using his influence with the BBC as well to get a good deal. They could do better of course. They have to learn the hard way that if you rubbish the league you are playing in, people will not want to watch it on tv.

TJ wrote:Seems reasonable enough to me.  Smaller populations veiwing.  Less commercial value.  quite honestly i am suprised its that close.  

Egg
Sactly

That is the league in a nutshell. - Almost unsellable in terms of European domestic rugby. Yet people still think it's great to be in. Heads in the sand I'm afraid.

It is falling behind at such a rate of knots and will result in death to celtic rugby. We are so far off the French and English already that it may be too late to ever get back. The pro12 is killing celtic rugby.

F**k 'Celtic ' rugby.

No such thing as 'Celtic Rugby'.

There is Scottish rugby, Welsh rugby, English rugby, Irish rugby, Italian rugby and French rugby.

The English don't consider themselves a version of 'British' rugby.  The French wouldn't see themselves as Continental rugby.  There is no such thing as Celtic rugby.

The problem with Pro12 is Welsh rugby - infighting, backbiting, constant media snivelling, excuse making, excuse finding, self-stabbing, posturing, threatening, joking (Mr Dying to be back in Wales that I've missed ever so much Moffett) - gone in a flash again incidently when his weird media campaign hit the dirt.

Pro12 should now demand Regions get their house in order and stop bringing the Product into disrepute with the constant moaning and bickering about not-enough-money.   Their constant drone endangers sponsorship and broadcasting fees.  (The very goal of some of the moaners     We ain't dumb)

If the Regions want out.... call WRU's bluff again and refuse to play next season.  'Celtic' rugby has no issues - it doesn't exist.  Welsh rugby is the issue.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

TJ wrote:Seems reasonable enough to me.  Smaller populations veiwing.  Less commercial value.  quite honestly i am suprised its that close.  

Egg
Sactly

That is the league in a nutshell. - Almost unsellable in terms of European domestic rugby. Yet people still think it's great to be in. Heads in the sand I'm afraid.

It is falling behind at such a rate of knots and will result in death to celtic rugby. We are so far off the French and English already that it may be too late to ever get back. The pro12 is killing celtic rugby.

That platform Hore was talking about, on which the 4 Regions stand, is burning and it's the few Regions fans online that are fueling those flames.

With the likes of RRW, ably supported by their online warriors, I'm not at all surprised Welsh rugby is lagging behind.

It isn't Pro12 that's killing WELSH rugby. It's a combination of things, including the few self-destructive idiots who call themselves rugby fans. Not only are they pulling down the value of Pro12, they are also damaging the clubs they claim they support.

SecretFly wrote:

Pro12 should now demand Regions get their house in order and stop bringing the Product into disrepute with the constant moaning and bickering about not-enough-money.   Their constant drone endangers sponsorship and broadcasting fees.  (The very goal of some of the moaners     We ain't dumb)

If the Regions want out.... call WRU's bluff again and refuse to play next season.  'Celtic' rugby has no issues - it doesn't exist.  Welsh rugby is the issue.

Can you give an example of these?

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

TJ wrote:Seems reasonable enough to me.  Smaller populations veiwing.  Less commercial value.  quite honestly i am suprised its that close.  

Egg
Sactly

That is the league in a nutshell. - Almost unsellable in terms of European domestic rugby. Yet people still think it's great to be in. Heads in the sand I'm afraid.

It is falling behind at such a rate of knots and will result in death to celtic rugby. We are so far off the French and English already that it may be too late to ever get back. The pro12 is killing celtic rugby.

That platform Hore was talking about, on which the 4 Regions stand, is burning and it's the few Regions fans online that are fueling those flames.

With the likes of RRW, ably supported by their online warriors, I'm not at all surprised Welsh rugby is lagging behind.

It isn't Pro12 that's killing WELSH rugby. It's a combination of things, including the few self-destructive idiots who call themselves rugby fans. Not only are they pulling down the value of Pro12, they are also damaging the clubs they claim they support.

Wait, you think it's only Welsh rugby that is lagging behind?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

TJ wrote:Seems reasonable enough to me.  Smaller populations veiwing.  Less commercial value.  quite honestly i am suprised its that close.  

Egg
Sactly

That is the league in a nutshell. - Almost unsellable in terms of European domestic rugby. Yet people still think it's great to be in. Heads in the sand I'm afraid.

It is falling behind at such a rate of knots and will result in death to celtic rugby. We are so far off the French and English already that it may be too late to ever get back. The pro12 is killing celtic rugby.

That platform Hore was talking about, on which the 4 Regions stand, is burning and it's the few Regions fans online that are fueling those flames.

With the likes of RRW, ably supported by their online warriors, I'm not at all surprised Welsh rugby is lagging behind.

It isn't Pro12 that's killing WELSH rugby. It's a combination of things, including the few self-destructive idiots who call themselves rugby fans. Not only are they pulling down the value of Pro12, they are also damaging the clubs they claim they support.

Wait, you think it's only Welsh rugby that is lagging behind?

Italian Rugby has never made headway to lag behind. Scottish rugby appears to be moving forward, Irish rugby is moving forward. Yep, I would say Welsh rugby is falling behind the rest of us.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

TJ wrote:Seems reasonable enough to me.  Smaller populations veiwing.  Less commercial value.  quite honestly i am suprised its that close.  

Egg
Sactly

That is the league in a nutshell. - Almost unsellable in terms of European domestic rugby. Yet people still think it's great to be in. Heads in the sand I'm afraid.

It is falling behind at such a rate of knots and will result in death to celtic rugby. We are so far off the French and English already that it may be too late to ever get back. The pro12 is killing celtic rugby.

That platform Hore was talking about, on which the 4 Regions stand, is burning and it's the few Regions fans online that are fueling those flames.

With the likes of RRW, ably supported by their online warriors, I'm not at all surprised Welsh rugby is lagging behind.

It isn't Pro12 that's killing WELSH rugby. It's a combination of things, including the few self-destructive idiots who call themselves rugby fans. Not only are they pulling down the value of Pro12, they are also damaging the clubs they claim they support.

Wait, you think it's only Welsh rugby that is lagging behind?

Italian Rugby has never made headway to lag behind. Scottish rugby appears to be moving forward, Irish rugby is moving forward. Yep, I would say Welsh rugby is falling behind the rest of us.

Do you think Scottish rugby, Irish rugby and Italian rugby is falling behind English and/or French rugby?

I think the pro 12 is doing just fine.

What sets it apart from the Top14 is how the leagues are set up. The pro12 and to an extend the Aviva seem to be set up as a mechanism of improving the associated  national teams.

The top14 on the other hand seems to be set up to improve the clubs. The decline of the French national team is symptomatic of this.

Since the bulk of the last ERC champions have come from Ireland and France over the last few years it surprises me that Chunky is attacking the Pro12 when his concerns should perhaps be closer to home. The Aviva seems to not be improving the English clubs ERC championship credentials despite changing the ERC rules to suit them mid season.

As for the Pro12 from an Edinburgh point of view there are no "easy" games IMO in the league. Anyone can beat anyone on the day.

As an entertainment factor just watch the Glasgow vs Leinster game from 2 weeks ago and tell me that the pro12 is a bad league.

Come on folks, chunky's a very special person. Don't engage him in his meaningless, whinging debates any more. I feel for him, I really do

Falling behind England? No, not yet. If the likes of Wray get their way they will destroy NH rugby, but as things stand, no. The AP and the Pro12, are behind the T14, and there is no real solution to the problem, unless the T14 implodes, which I hope it eventually will.

Pete330v2 wrote:Come on folks, chunky's a very special person. Don't engage him in his meaningless, whinging debates any more. I feel for him, I really do

So why comment on the thread?

Munchkin wrote:Falling behind England? No, not yet. If PRL get their way they will destroy NH rugby, but as things stand, no. The AP and the Pro12, are behind the T14, and there is no real solution to the problem, unless the T14 implodes, which I hope it eventually will.

Scottish and Irish domestic rugby not falling behind England? Fair do's, you're in for a shock in the next few years. I'll have fun revisiting these threads.

I don't necessarily agree that there is no such thing as celtic rugby. That is partly why the constant Welsh infighting is so infuriating to the rest of us.

There certainly needs to be a 'celtic rugby' if the Pro12 is to remain long term.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Do you think Scottish rugby, Irish rugby and Italian rugby is falling behind English and/or French rugby?

One English side out of six making it to ERCC semi-final?  One Irish side making it out of three?  You tell me Chunky?

It's been a topsy turvy year for all sides in Pro12 because of the change in climate (brought about by orders from RIVAL LEAGUES! )  It's been topsy turvy for sure.  But in a confused and unsettled year, the Pro12 is still holding its own.  So you tell me how good the English are in comparison to the rest of us.  And don't even begin to talk about the 'French' - who have outbought everything because they've been allowed to - because their 'advantages' were never brought to the table by a PRL who only every wanted to talk about Pro12 'advantages'

And you want to join the devious PRL in a cosy club where everyone gets what they want????  Will you grow up Chunky.

But I say again.  The Regions feel suffocated by the Pro12 then they should refuse to play next season.  The ball is their court.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Falling behind England? No, not yet. If PRL get their way they will destroy NH rugby, but as things stand, no. The AP and the Pro12, are behind the T14, and there is no real solution to the problem, unless the T14 implodes, which I hope it eventually will.

Scottish and Irish domestic rugby not falling behind England? Fair do's, you're in for a shock in the next few years. I'll have fun revisiting these threads.

To be fair Bath and Glasgow met in the ERC and both won their home games. Also Edinburgh just overturned LI in the Challenge cup.

I'm interested to see by what evidence you can conclude that English club rugby is currently better than Scottish club rugby.

SecretFly wrote:

One English side out of six making it to ERCC semi-final?  One Irish side making it out of three?  You tell me Chunky?

It's been a topsy turvy year for all sides in Pro12 because of the change in climate (brought about by orders from RIVAL LEAGUES! )  It's been topsy turvy for sure.  But in a confused and unsettled year, the Pro12 is still holding its own.  So you tell me how good the English are in comparison to the rest of us.  And don't even begin to talk about the 'French' - who have outbought everything because they've been allowed to - because their 'advantages' were never brought to the table by a PRL who only every wanted to talk about Pro12 'advantages'

And you want to join the devious PRL in a cosy club where everyone gets what they want????  Will you grow up Chunky.

I don't think there's any need for insults.

The proof is in the opening post. This league is commercially unviable due to it's nature and is putting all teams that play in it at a massive disadvantage.

But I say again.  The Regions feel suffocated by the Pro12 then they should refuse to play next season.  The ball is their court.

Again, what is your evidence for this?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

I'm interested to see by what evidence you can conclude that English club rugby is currently better than Scottish club rugby.

Seriously? You think the combined average strength, power, financial situation, academy prospects and value of Glasgow and Edinburgh are on a par with Leicester, Saints, Bath, Saracens, Sale, Gloucester, L iIrish, Exeter, Newcastle, Wasps etc?

Really?