Your pre World Cup squad: England

First topic message reminder :

I think there are normally 50 people in one of these squads but the numbers are quite flexible. But with no international games between now and the squad being named, who makes your wider squad? And what questions will you be looking to answer in the three warm up games?

Front Row
Marler, Vunipola, Corbisiero, Hartley, Youngs, Webber, Cole, Wilson, Brookes.

All 9 men have recent international experience both in terms of hard caps and squad time. There's no one else really in contention and front row isn't an area you traditionally get bolters.

Questions I'd be looking to answer is can Corbisiero force his way back into the starting line up and Hartley or Young's at 2.

Second row
Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Attwood, Slater, Kruis.

Slater is the only controversial pick in there but his first cap is long overdue. Lancaster will pick the other 5 and no one will argue.

Our starting pair are a lock and I think everyone is fairly happy with Parling currently being third in the pecking order. So we need to establish our fourth choice early on. A lot will come down to training, but Lancaster will need to work out who that fourth choice is, and whether the fourth choice will make the plane.

Back Row
Robshaw, Wood, Armitage, Haskell, Kvesic, Vunipola, Morgan, Easter.

Robshaw, Wood, Vunipola and Morgan (if fit) pick themselves in the final squad. Easter covers Morgan (and second row) making him a must in the training squad and an attractive option if Morgan doesn't make the final squad. You don't just throw away 50 caps of experience so Haskell makes the wider squad for me, while Armitage and Kvesic get there on the strength of their club form.

The question for me relvolves around the starting back row. I don't think the balance is right and would look to experiment with Vunipola at 6 and Morgan at 8 and Armitage on the bench for the first match. With our locks both able to play 6, we should be able to facilitate more carriers in the back row. Once we lock in our starting back row we can fill the rest of the squad.

Half backs
Youngs, Care, Dickson, Wigglesworth, Ford, Farrell, Slade, Cipriani.

Only real left field selection here is Slade as a potential utility back. Cipriani is purely in as injury cover as I don't think he's versatile enough to be a third choice fly half and he won't go as one of the two.

I think the question to be answered is who is the second choice 9, can Care or Dickson usurp Wigglesworth? Youngs, Ford and Farrell are probably already booked in.

Centres
Barritt, Burrell, Twelvetrees, Burgess, Eastmond, Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly.

Barritt, Tuilagi and Joseph are already in the final squad, and for me I'd take those 3 only, with Slade, Farrell and Nowell also in the squad covering centre. After those 3, I think there are so many players who are much of a muchness and I think Lancaster would be wise to include them all in his squad to keep his options open. Should there be an injury Lancaster can then try to judge the form of the other players.

The question for me is what two to start with therefore. With 3 games you can try out each of the 3 combos from your 3 first choice centres or you can try two and give Slade a start at 13. But we need to nail our starting centre partnership as a matter of priority.

Back three
Nowell, Watson, May, Ashton, Wade, Brown, Foden, Goode.

Nowell, Watson, May and Brown all go to the World Cup with space for one more. With Nowell and Watson able to cover 15, that could be a winger or a full back. Ashton or Wade could get a hatful against Uruguay and secure a bonus point in that game.

First game I'd try Watson at full back to see whether that is a viable option, and I'd try one of my other wingers in his spot. After that, I think the starting 3 are pretty secure in their spots.

Ford snr is on record of thinking the best position for Burgess is the back row, and he is not alone. The big problem is the specialist skills and the time taken to learn them. It has been easier giving him experience in the centers but 6 or even 8 was always the most likely long term destination.

Brad Thorn seemed to take to the pack role no problem...I appreciate he was a class player.

But maybe Burgess will adapt quickly to the 6 role...or maybe 8. He's a major league carrier and if he can use his arms in tackling then he will be a destructive tackler.

All ifs and buts for the moment to see how he gets on. He may well be back in league in 6 months time.

I notice Sam Tomkins is on his way home due to "homesickness"

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:FES sorry to be blunt but your players aren't as good as you think.

Pot, Kettle, Black.


You have so much prior history of over-rating your own players, and underestimating opposition. You get angry with any who dare to disagree, and even angrier at your teams when they deign to lose to obviously inferior teams.

Londontiger fair enough if that's how you feel.

Personally I feel that I have to champion the Saracens players as far too often they are underrated. I actually think I am more fair than you make out.

I have criticised Saracens players when they have performed badly - e.g. Farrell had an absolutely shocking AIs. I said before and after he should have never been picked.

I give credit where it's due. E.g. I underestimated Connacht but applauded their efforts when they almost beat Saracens. Forget the return leg....

I have praised Nowell for his improved form in the 6 nations this season after criticising him last year.


You are right sometimes I do get angry when some people disagree on certain topics when it's so obvious in my opinion that I am right. I am not right all the time but on certain things I most definitely am.

E.g. of course Ashton is better than Maitland. Of course only if you look at logical things like form, international caps, tries, positive influence on matches. Ashton is hated because of his swallow dive and poor discipline but as a player he's very good indeed.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/matt-dawson-column-chris-ashton-5487136

At least I am not the only Englishman to rate Ashton.

I also do get annoyed when player X quite clearly outplays player Y, some posters think player Y was the better player!

You are right I do get annoyed when my team loses to obviously inferior teams - who doesn't?



Fair enough Bambam. That's your opinion.

I'd have Ashton over Maitland too but to claim that Kruis is ahead of R Gray or that Itoje will surpass a player like J Gray could be pointed as equally contentious?

I certainly feel Johnnie could go on to be absolutely top class and would already be vying for a starting place for the Lions in my mind. Itoje looks good with massive potential of his own but there's still some discussion to be had whether that's in the 2nd row or at 6.

no 7 & 1/2 you are right it's perhaps a bit farfetched to say Itoje will surpass J Gray - I just have a feeling that Itoje is going to be a star for England.

If you look at the trajectory of some ex U20s it's not far fetched to see the England U20s captain of last year make a big impact. Plus of course Itoje was picked for the Saxons and Saracens aren't worried about playing him against the best sides.

I thought Kruis had a better 6 nations than R Gray - contentious perhaps.

If Itoje gets involved in some of the biggest club games in the upcoming weeks and plays well, stays fit too he might even get into the RWC squad.

Itoje is being developed to take a leadership role - captain of the England U20s winning team, captain of the LV cup winning team, potential to be a future captain of Saracens first team and England.

I'd agree with all of that bar Kruis. Scary some of the class in general coming from 2nd row.

It is indeed..

Imagine if Stooke can get over 2nd season syndrome and Dom Barrow can stay injury free.

Who is this Ewells the lock that Driver was talking about?

I notice that Dai Young Is calling for Daly and Simpson to be called up. They have been in form. I guess Dalys spot would depend on how Manu comes through.

As for Simpson would you have his running game or Wigglesworth / Dickson more controlling game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Who is this Ewells the lock that Driver was talking about?

Current England U20 captain at Bath. Think, during Bath's back row crisis, he featured at openside for Bath against Glasgow.

Ah right, thanks.

It's important to remember how good Lawes and Launchbury can be...and their age. They're gonna be around a long time. So anyone coming through is going to have to match them Or better.

Tut tut Geordie you were after replacing Lauchbury not long ago!

I ll admit now after sod all game time there I d take Burgess at 6 to the world cup. There i ve said it feel free to throw this in my face as its horribly premature and a stupid thing to say.

7.5

Yes I did, I'm still of the opinion we could go with a heavyweight in there. But Attwood has failed and Slater been injured. So maybe we don't need a heavyweight...

Launchbury is a class act though. I'll not debate that.

Maybe we can add the power or bulk elsewhere....as you say a Burgess type at 6. But Ewers is surely ahead of him at the moment.

I have no wish to disparage Scotland but if for example Saracens (English) combined (for GF's sake) with Newcastle (English) this would potentially add Brookes, Barrow and Wilson to the pack (backs might not change).  

Such a combined side versus Scotland would be an interesting contest.  Saracens (English) on their own would be weaker because there are one or two weak spots in the fifteen.

A combined pack of: - Vunipola, George, Brookes, Barrow, Kruis, Wilson, Otoje and Vunipola would not be too bad.

Another example a combined Saracens and Bath side would have current internationals in all positions except for the back row but even here Garvey, Fearns, Itoje and Fraser would be possible options.

Jamie George, who was one of my "bolters" for the squad, had a poor weekend.

LondonTiger wrote:Jamie George, who was one of my "bolters" for the squad, had a poor weekend.

Londontiger I thought he won his head to head with Tom Youngs..... Think we both know who had the worse weekend.....

Saracens had the better weekend, by far.

however it was despite of Jamie George who was poor at the lineout and struggled in the scrums, apart from when Youngs was binned. So please explain how he did better.

He is allowed one poor match, and I still want him in the RWC training squad.

Youngs stupidity is the only thing, did cost you the match though. Bar that Youngs was better.

Londontiger it wasn't his best game with the set piece but the thing about the Saracens guys is they focus more on their all round game than their set piece. Jamie George carried well and made plenty of tackles. Sure his lineout could have been better but more responsibility should fall on the captain, Hargreaves.

A good scrummaging frontrow can prove decisive but sometimes it's the all rounders who can rule the day.

When you have the carrying and defensive workrate of guys like George and Mako it can offset struggles at scrum time. Tigers have one of the best scrummaging frontrows in the league.

Leicester's scrum had the upper hand at times sure but it did not prove decisive - compare that to the dominant Exeter scrum vs Saints.

Oh and he did better than Tom Youngs because he didn't give away a stupid and pointless YC that cost his team dearly.

Talking of England Number 12...

Where have all the calls for Ollie Devoto gone? We all keep hearing Slade now...but Devoto played very well against us. Now I appreciate that doesn't really mean much...but he's a lad who is a 12, unlike Slade who has never played there.

Is Devoto worth a look in the Pre World cup get together?

Sorry but the things he did around the park do not make up for a bad day at the basics, especially as he barely carried the ball. Good tackle stats round the finge I admit.

True the crucial moment was Youngs dumb penalty, but that moment of madness has no impact on how George performed. He has chances over the next few weeks to make Lancaster sit up and notice. He will have impressed against Racing, but he will have lost all of that after this weekend imo. Which is a shame as he shoudl be looked at.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Talking of England Number 12...

Where have all the calls for Ollie Devoto gone? We all keep hearing Slade now...but Devoto played very well against us. Now I appreciate that doesn't really mean much...but he's a lad who is a 12, unlike Slade who has never played there.

Is Devoto worth a look in the Pre World cup get together?

Devoto needs to nail down his club spot before being considered. As soon as Eastmond is fit, Devoto will be out of the side again.

Possibly yes.

Londontiger true but it's not been a good weekend for the main hookers fighting for a space.

Slade looked good at 10 for Exeter but sadly for those calling for him at 12, it's hard to see him being utilised there.

It's a shame that Bath are utilising Burgess at 6 so late because the battle for the 6 shirt in my opinion is wide open.

How did Burgess go at 6?

BamBam wrote:How did Burgess go at 6?

Pretty good. Naive in parts, but some good stuff. When replaced he was joint highest tackler and had made most turnovers. He had carried better than he does at 12 - however he had dropped some balls when significant line breaks were possible. Looked uncomfortable at the scrum and a touch confused at the lineout.

And he was playing against us!!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:And he was playing against us!!!

Not all of us deem you unworthy GF, just B does

Thought Nowell had a good game in the centres for Chiefs against Saints yesterday.

Excellent pass at speed to the winger and looked very busy as usual (some good breakdown work too).

With regard to Devoto he did have a good game and he has been mentioned before.  Post World Cup there are few young players on the verve of the England side: -

Slade, Devoto, Itoje, Ewers and Auterac has improved tremendously this season (though great competition at loose head).  This not meant to be an exhaustive list as I am sure there are several others.  Interesting question is whether any of these get into the World Cup squad?

Ewers in particular this weekend was excellent. Yes the front 5 were doing a great job but in the tackle he constantly smashed people back and made some good carries. Considering he was opposite Tom Wood there was only one winner.

Hopefully he gets a chance with England at some point and uses his considerable bulk and power. Nice offloads too.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:And he was playing against us!!!

Not all of us deem you unworthy GF, just B does

but to be fair our current form isn't great. I think we've forgotten that tackling is part of rugby...

little_badger wrote:Ewers in particular this weekend was excellent. Yes the front 5 were doing a great job but in the tackle he constantly smashed people back and made some good carries. Considering he was opposite Tom Wood there was only one winner.

Hopefully he gets a chance with England at some point and uses his considerable bulk and power. Nice offloads too.

Yeah, people calling for Burgess need to remember if we are looking for a powerhouse 6 then Ewers should be first in line. He should have been trialled over the AI's and 6n.

He's also excellent at 8. And could probably do an emergency shift at 4/5 if really pressed upon due to injuries in a WC squad rather than Easter.

I wonder if it is too late to persuade Francis to consider England?

The World Cup Squad will need three tight heads, though at the moment the pecking order would be Cole, Wilson and Brookes if all were fit.

Admittedly based on only the 55 minutes or so against us where he was schooled in the scrum and anonymous in the loose, I would have several more THs ahead of Francis, Thomas, Sinkler, Harrison and Balmain amongst them.

Guess i will have to try and watch him against Saints tonight.

Francis is very raw but very powerful. He was giving Waller & Corbs all sorts of issues yesterday.

Do we need Francis?

Surely those 3, plus Sinkler, Scott Wilson, Balmain etc all coming through is enough...

Plus even the likes of Henry Thomas has been around the squad a while.

Cap him to stop the Welsh getting him??

I doubt he'd turn his back on Wales after training with them.

Watching him progress this season I think he'd be a better option than Sinkler, Wilson, Balmain, Brookes etc. He's a very detructive scrummager which is not such a common thing these days, he took Waller and Corbisiero to the cleaners on Sunday.

Perhaps it was just the difference between Ayerza/Youngs and Corbs(Waller)/Hartley but as I said above Francis was poor against us, struggled to do anything other than go down or back against us. This left him so tired he was walking from scrum to ruck.

LondonTiger wrote:Perhaps it was just the difference between Ayerza/Youngs and Corbs(Waller)/Hartley but as I said above Francis was poor against us, struggled to do anything other than go down or back against us. This left him so tired he was walking from scrum to ruck.

The lad is over 21st - if he trimmed down a bit it would make a big difference - whoever he ends up playing for.

Yea he didn't look very...conditioned, did he? Good to see in this age of stream lined props with 6 packs!

I did have a little laugh when he started to run tripped and got cramp!

Has he been training with Ollie Tomashckyk our TH...?

Sgt Pooly really? So he would pick Wales even though he plays for an English club who have helped developed him into the player he is - oh and almost all his family are English?

Seems a bit ungrateful to Exeter to be honest!

Perhaps his power partly comes from his weight? If he trimmed down he might lose some destructive power in the scrum?

yappysnap wrote:Yea he didn't look very...conditioned, did he? Good to see in this age of stream lined props with 6 packs!

I played 9 and our club captain was a prop of the old school - he walked from one set piece the next. He once dropped me because I took a quick tap and go. He made me pay a forfeit in the bar too!

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly really? So he would pick Wales even though he plays for an English club who have helped developed him into the player he is - oh and almost all his family are English?

Seems a bit ungrateful to Exeter to be honest!

Perhaps his power partly comes from his weight? If he trimmed down he might lose some destructive power in the scrum?

I imagine he holds some loyalty to the Welsh set-up after being invited to train with them, he said in an recent interview "it felt right" whatever that means.

He's improved 100% through the season, he has a lot of raw potential and is a much better scrummager than Brookes imo.

I think the bigger question is why were Saints so terrible! I am starting to question their rotation policy, some of their big names never seem to get a rest.

Is it because they don't have the academy lads to come through and plug a gap now and then? The fact that Itoje is getting so much game time for Sarries is brilliant and terrifying in equal measure.

Saints have a small squad as they need to turn a profit every year. Last year they hung on to win. Both the semi- and the final were close. This year a number of players look shot. Other key players such as Ben foden have been out most of the season. The replacements are not that caliber. This weekend off could possibly make or break their season.

Myler and Dickson have both lost a lot of form too which doesn't help Saints.

yappysnap wrote:Myler and Dickson have both lost a lot of form too which doesn't help Saints.

That is true, but it starts up front. Waller, Corbs, Ma'afu and Denman have all been pretty average in 2015.