Aviva Premiership Round 11

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Table:

Fri 26th Dec 14

15:00 LONDON IRISH  v   LONDON WELSH Madejski Stadium
Winless London Welsh travel to Reading to face a misfiring London Irish in this thames Valley derby. Despite their woes and speculation surrounding Brian Smith's future and Declan Kidney's possible arrival, if any opponents can provide a timely boost it is the boys from Oxford. Surely a comfortable win for the home team and relegation all but secured for this season's whipping boys.


Sat 27th Dec 14

14:00 BATH RUGBY  v   EXETER CHIEFS Recreation Ground BT Sport
Massively important game for both teams. Bath fans will already be thinking about the play-offs, and a win against the team just one spot below them will go a long way to securing a home tie. Lose and the doubts will set in, especially as a number of players will be unavailable during the 6Ns, win and they will move two wins clear of their opponents. Exeter will have been disappointed to lose on the road to Sale and could be desperate for a win - hard to see but they do like confounding people.


14:00 SALE SHARKS  v   LEICESTER TIGERS AJ Bell Stadium
Sale moved back into the top 6 last week with the win over Exeter. However i still stand by last weeks comments that if you wish to make the play-offs then you have to be looking to win in Salford. This round only ends the first half of the season, yet I believe if Leicester lose they will be unable to make the top 4. Top 6 and next seasons ECC will be looking a distant dream too with a defeat. Sale meanwhile will be full of belief and with Cipriani pulling the strings should be favourites against a tigers team that look toothless in attack. Leicester's only real hope lies in their set piece and maybe some more Penalty tries.


15:00 NEWCASTLE FALCONS  v   SARACENS Kingston Park
I still get nightmares about the dreadful game (3?) years ago. Saracen's caterpillar, Stringers box kicks and the most turgid game I have ever seen. Falcons are better than that now, while Sarries will hope their demolition of LW will have blown all cobwebs away. Sarries should be too strong, but who knows.


16:30 HARLEQUINS  v   NORTHAMPTON SAINTS Twickenham Stadium BT Sport
The big game. Quins still undefeated in these? You do feel that the home side have little say in the result. If Saints play well they will win, no mater what Quins do. Saints do have off-days though and Quins will be looking to capitalise on any mistakes.


Sun 28th Dec 14
14:30 GLOUCESTER RUGBY  v   WASPS Kingsholm BT Sport
Two teams that liek to run with the ball. Two packs that are improving. Wasps have the stronger back row unit and that could be crucial.

I wouldn't want Gopperth back

Ah I rate him very highly Sgt. But not as a kicking 12.

Harris looks to be really coming on.

We're disappointed to lose by two points to Sarries. That's a MASSIVE improvement on last season.

A few quality additions...a kicking 10 maybe a LH...and things will move nicely.

At least all teams know now that we're not an easy trip to the North East anymore.

Yeah ditto Sgt.

Welly Gopperth would have scored that penalty...but for the rest of his game I wouldn't want him.

Ill stick with Catterick and Clegg over him coming back.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I wouldn't want Gopperth back

 It was a joke TBh, his kicking is great but Newcastle wouldn't be playing like that with him there.

Welly...you know the rumour mill this time of year...so may be true or utter bo&^ocks...but there are rumours abound that Berrick Barnes is on his way.

Not sure if that would be a good signing or not...

Interesting game Quins v Saints.

Ma'afu yellow;d for high tackle.

And its getting a bit tasty.

What is it with saints a discipline in big games?

 Barnes would be a good pick up but not 100% sold on if his body can satnd up to the AP.

Yeah that's a fair point about Barnes. Im not convinced on that signing.

Yeah they do give away yellows.

Not sure any other team in the AP could be winning this match. 30% possession, 13 carries and still 13-8 up. Wouldn't bet against them winning it again this year.

Edit: 8-20 now. 10 unanswered points from Saints while a man down. Surely they are eventually going to get their hands on the ball, could end up being a thrashing.

Interesting hearing Heally and Dalaglio talk about Samu Manoa.

When they signed him he was an unknown raw player.

Can they do it with some of the other ex NFL trialists the guys who are huge, fast etc. Can they learn the game (or can saints coaching staff train them)Manoa who has been in the game longer?

Danny Care doing nothing for his England aspirations

Well, wasn't expecting 5 points. Not complaining though.

nathan wrote:Well, wasn't expecting 5 points. Not complaining though.

Did Sale just tail off after getting that big, early second-half lead, or were Tigers more potent as the game went on?

Not sure as I didn't see the game. Presume it was a bit of both

We should have won that game, well taken of your limited chances, Saints

If we play like that the next few weeks we will win those matches though, especially with Marler improving the scrum, some back up (and our first choice) at 10 to help with the kicking game and Robshaw who inherently improves the entire team

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Danny Care doing nothing for his England aspirations

Pooly, based on all your comments on this match on the other thread too, did you actually watch it?!

Haha...I wouldn't comment if I didn't watch it mate. I thought Care was off his game, he kicked badly and threw some bad passes that allowed Saints to break. I didn't think he played well at all.

To be fair he barely kicked at all

When he did it was poor imo, he needs to work on it to get ahead of Youngs. He looks like he's trying too hard.

Or England could implement a game that doesn't over rely on kick in away possession? Like, say, how we played when we looked good in the 6N? Play to our players' strengths, which even for Youngs is running the ball

You need a strong kicking game at Int level, as all the top sides do (esp NZ). It's nothing to do with kicking away possession, it's about playing in the right areas at the right time.

With a 9 who has a poor kicking game you put yourself under pressure. For all of Smith's sniping abilities his box kicking is on the button and takes pressure off the team and his 10. Care is a great running threat but you need the full package these days.

Gloucester 23-30 Wasps. Our first away league win.

Glaws were very good in the 2nd half but couldn't cross the line. 5 tries in the first half and none in the second. But that was an anxious 2nd half for us Waspies.

looks like yet ANOTHER set of coaches have found Hook out at 10. its happened at EVERY club he's been to. played at 15 mostly for Perpignan. anyone know if it was in his contract he plays in HIS favoured position at 10 ? as the commentator said, you play in a position that the club dictates. DAYGLO says hooks not the answer at 10, Glaws need game management that Hook doesn't provide.

Haven't seen the game but Hook was listed at 10, both on the Aviva Premiership and BBC website. Did he get shifted after a substitution ?

He got shifted to 15 at HT. Burns came on and Gloucester played better with him at 10.

Well we're slowly closing the gap.

Glos - 21pts
L.Irish - 16pts
Newcastle - 15pts
L.Welsh - 1pt

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He got shifted to 15 at HT. Burns came on and Gloucester played better with him at 10.

Cheers Pooly I agree with Gavstar, Hook's just not a #10

Hook got shifted to 15, according to the commentator Hook is working on issues in his game , such us running laterally.......whats new I say, never rated the guy. The Welsh management have used the same statement about the lateral runs, it's a guy who has 70 plus caps and NOW he's being told whats wrong with his game !!!!!!!! reminds me of the emperor clothes story. I'm amazed he's fooled for so long.

I believe Hook signed for Glaws on the basis that he would play 10. To be fair, I thought he put some good passes in today.

Hound of Harrow wrote:I believe Hook signed for Glaws on the basis that he would play 10. To be fair, I thought he put some good passes in today.

He's always been good at that - normally straight to the opposition How you doing mo chara ?

Gloucester really did look less than the sum of their parts. In the best case, the coaching team gets a good pre-season in next year and they become a different proposition entirely. Then again, they could just all stay on the wrong page.

Need a proper experience 10 and imo a solid 10 rather than a anything else.

 With B.Burns being the understudy.

  9)  Laidlaw
10)  A Solid 10
11) May
12) TT
13) Trinder
14) Sharples
15) Hook

 Would have a good look.

 Look at Goode for Wasps he doesn't attack himself to much yet he gets Varndell and Wade involved a lot and set them up very well.

Got to say well done to Saints. They showed their class with so little possession but making every chance count.

Really pleased with that Quins performance though, looks like we're slowly on an upwards curve now, if we can just get a functioning set piece and get Nev back then we'll be far better.

Disappointed with Wards throwing and the props at scrum time though.

I have to agree with others it is time to move Hook to either 13 or 15. We were noticeably better when Burns came on and what was most telling was that 36 was truly woeful in the 1st half as he was getting the ball in no space and panicing yet in the 2nd half he was far better as he had more time as Burns was taking the ball to the line.

Our progress has stalled in recent weeks and our lack of strength in depth is also showing. I'm fully convinced we have the right coaching set up but perhaps its time to jettison a few of the perennial underperformers.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting hearing Heally and Dalaglio talk about Samu Manoa.

When they signed him he was an unknown raw player.

Can they do it with some of the other ex NFL trialists the guys who are huge, fast etc. Can they learn the game (or can saints coaching staff train them)Manoa who has been in the game longer?

The Torygraph had an article about him wanting to pay his debt back to Saints, apparently he is the runt of the litter, his two brothers are even bigger:

“I have heard it before from all my coaches — Dusty, Jim — they ask me, ‘Do you have any brothers?’ ” Manoa said. “All my brothers are bigger than me, but my mum won’t let them play rugby. Maybe she thinks it is too dangerous.”

Not too dangerous for them, but for the opposition. The link is below.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/premiership/11314122/Harlequins-v-Northampton-Samu-Manoa-wants-to-repay-debt-to-Saints-before-heading-to-France.html

Wasn't it Bob Casey that took over the Eagles and asked for a list of all the college footballers that could do 100m in under 10.5 sec and weighed in at over 110kg, there were about 20,000 of them. God help rugby if they do start to take it seriously.

Some of those monsters have very transferable skills as well. Catching balls coming over the shoulder and above the head are second nature, the whole physical aspect as well. They'd probably do more damage in League actually as they currently fall down at the scrum, breakdown and at half back. Those areas of the game where the rugby brain comes into play most.

The sport is growing over there and sooner or later they're going to unearth some real talent. Incidentally Tigers have just picked up a 6 foot 8 twenty stone 23 year old American international lock...

Saints following Tigers to the US it seems.

 Wonder how are scouting setup and coaches will look at American rugby whilst we are over their for the preseason game.

Our scouting set up is already out there. They were doing coaching courses across the pond a couple of years back.

I believe we are also looking to get into America, some top athletes out there who could do very well in our game.

There's some real untapped potential and there's also Eric Fry.......cheers America.

That's back to the prop, seven, half back issue I mentioned above Sgt. Still an American prop developing in the AP has got to be good for the Eagles.

He is absolutley bloody useless Sam but I see your point.

HongKongCherry wrote:I have to agree with others it is time to move Hook to either 13 or 15. We were noticeably better when Burns came on and what was most telling was that 36 was truly woeful in the 1st half as he was getting the ball in no space and panicing yet in the 2nd half he was far better as he had more time as Burns was taking the ball to the line.

Our progress has stalled in recent weeks and our lack of strength in depth is also showing. I'm fully convinced we have the right coaching set up but perhaps its time to jettison a few of the perennial underperformers.

Who do you think are the perennial underperformers?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He is absolutley bloody useless Sam but I see your point.

You must have the most negative view on players on this site!

Bathite the underperformers lie mostly in our 2nd choices meaning we have little strength in depth. Murphy, Thomas, Paufisi and Knight offer little competition at prop. Knight in particular was heralded as the next great English tighthead a few years ago, but he is far from premiership standard. Dawiduik at hooker has not improved in years and offers little. Hudson at lock is a complete waste of space! He's great in the lineout but pretty useless elsewhere. The main starter not performing is Kalamafoni; his first season was outstanding but he rarely makes it over the gain line, yet is used as our main option. I don't think we should get rid of him yet, but he does need a spell on the sidelines. Morgan has thankfully started performing for us this year, but he has played rarely due to call ups and injury. In the backs 36 needs a kick up the backside and Trinder has been injures all season but when he does play he looks great, but invariably has failed to pass the ball. Meakes and Purdy are willing but are both academy players and their Iack of quality does show at times.

Some of those players can and should be better, but the new coaching set up hasn't got the best out of them. I had hoped by Christmas we'd be in full swing but that clearly isn't the case. There is now talk that we need to let them bring in their own players and have a fill preseason, but that simply isn't good enough. The players let down Nigel Davies and a good number are doing the same again this year.

I'm full of Christmas cheer!

Just rubbish ones Nath. Fry is an awful scrummager, he folds almost instantly. The primary job of front row forward is to scrummage imo.

I think Dallaglio is improving as a pundit. He's even managed to cut back his Wasps bias.

I thought his summary of the table is pretty fair.

Saracens are very lucky to be 3rd - the table hugely flatters them due to the 3 narrow wins over Wasps,LI and Newcastle.

Plus there's really not much in it from 3rd to 7th with just a 4 point gap.

I think a loss against Newcastle would have actually been a blessing in disguise - a poor win papers over the notable cracks.

Bath and Northampton continue to be the outstanding sides though Wasps also have been effective in their rebuilding stage.

Dayglo is more Sky than BT in his commentating style for me. Too many generalisations and not enough specifics and detailed analysis.

He also dislikes the Tigers still, good to see the rivalry is still there