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"Everybody Shut The F*%^ Up!' Brian Moore Adds Some Calm

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Post by yappysnap Mon 17 Nov 2014 - 21:59

First topic message reminder :

Before the remainder of the England Internationals...

Perspective is needed in light of England defeats, not plain criticism of head coach Stuart Lancaster

Perspective is needed in wake of recent defeats, but England cannot overlook sub-standard performances


“If you can hold your head while all around you are losing theirs, you obviously haven’t got a clue what’s going on.” This is how some writers interpreted the words of Stuart Lancaster, the England coach, after his side’s 28-31 defeat against South Africa on Saturday when he said: “I believe in the coaches, I believe in the players and I believe in what we’re doing.”
However, what is needed is a sensible view of what has happened in the five successive defeats endured by England; one without any agenda.
It is noticeable that the strongest advocates of Sir Clive Woodward and then Nick Mallet for the England helm have been the quickest to condemn. It is easy for pundits and writers to say daft things; they are not held to account.
How else could some make open calls for Lancaster to panic after the defeat against South Africa at Twickenham last Saturday?
I have never seen any management guru recommend panic as a useful management tool, added to which, what will his squad think if at the first sign of serious pressure Lancaster completely changes direction?

So, let us have a little perspective and realism. England have lost five matches in succession; four against New Zealand and one against South Africa.
In the past six games against the All Blacks the Springboks have lost five and won one; Australia have lost five and drawn one; England have lost five and won one. The other four major northern hemisphere teams have lost all six. Were there calls in those six countries to panic? No, because it is a dull suggestion.

Having rebalanced the hysteria over the recent England losses it is right to say that the last two were close on the scoreboard but not in terms of the respective teams’ performances. England have been well short of both the Blacks and the Boks and apart from their set-piece they have made no progress from the tour to New Zealand last summer. The centre conundrum, which by the way has existed since 2003, remains, as does an unsettled back three.
Additionally, England’s back row was nowhere near as effective as it should have been when playing behind a front five that has been at least equal to, if not on top of, their counterparts. Nobody in the back row has been on top form, for all their undoubted efforts and courage.
Both half-backs have been below previous form and again behind a pack that has not been on the back foot for the majority of the two games. The lack of direction and creativity has been badly affected by lack of form in the two pivotal units in the team and though Lancaster will want to maintain some continuity he cannot overlook sub standard performance.

The match against Samoa gives the England head coach the chance to play Ben Youngs and George Ford and to start Ben Morgan and James Haskell, without seriously prejudicing their chances of winning the game.
Nobody needs to feel sorry for Lancaster, the England head coach is well paid to take the responsibility, but you have to at least acknowledge that he has not been able to play his intended centre partnership for the autumn series of Manu Tuilagi and Luther Burrell.
Of the latter there seems no point in not having him in the match-day squad for Samoa given he is fit to play for his club this coming Friday. Indeed, a partnership of Burrell and Brad Barritt is the closest incarnation of the intended partnership presently available.
If that looks strong on bulk and short of speed, you have to name the two alternatives who will be more effective and the fact is that nobody can name another pair who are guaranteed to be so.

Previous advocates of ignoring results in favour experimentation and the selection of youth are now, perversely, insisting that winning is the only thing that now matters. If that is so they have to accept, if they are honest, that winning is less likely while playing various combinations of uncapped/newly capped players on the off chance that they will come good.
The reality is that England’s momentum has stalled and it badly needs restoring but the alternatives open to Lancaster are not plentiful without his whole squad being available.

In deciding what to do about it he is not helped by warnings that ‘he has had a wake-up call’ or advice like ‘he needs to circle the waggons’. He will not be helped by wholesale revision of his team when the substitutes are not demonstrably better than those they replace.
The changes outlined above are probably as far as Lancaster can go and if the players are of the quality he believes the message sent out by making them should provoke the required response. If it does not, Lancaster needs a major rethink but not one led by panic.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 11:50

yappysnap wrote:25 different players, bonkers.

I assume teams like Ireland, SA and NZ have maybe had 5 or 6, likewise Wales. Scotland have probably gone through a lot more as have Oz.

Wales have had a fair few in the centre during that time too (J Roberts, J Davies, Sc Williams, O Williams, C Allen, G North have all started there since the last AIs)
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Post by Geordie Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 11:55

Everyone thinks theres panic now....watch us get buttwhooped by Samoa....then you'll see panic.... Laugh

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Post by offload Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 12:02

Barney McGrew did it wrote:So to clarify:

1. England aren't as bad as some say just because we lose to the top 2 sides.
2. England aren't as good as a few say in that we can't justify being favourites for the RWC'15, but at least we're better than Wales.
3. We must not pick any new names to the team prior to RWC'15 - the selections must come from the current pool with tweaks for injury (or very occasionally form) and oppo only.
4. Stewie can no longer be called Mr Conservative as he's tried out more changes in personnel than Eastenders.
5. Matfield should have been penalized long before Hartley's foot was assaulted by the lock's thigh - but a YC was justified for rank stupidity.
6. We're definitely better than Wales.

Sorted.

Exactly Barney - sorted and still deluded. Smile
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Post by SecretFly Tue 18 Nov 2014 - 12:08

"Okay lads, let's not f**king panic, or be led astray by the bastards on social media outlets, like them bollixes on that 606 shytehole!  We know what we have to do.  Australia is here in two weeks and we're going to show the world what we do to a bunch of fancy birds in yellow feathers  - that's right!  We pluck the f**king c***s and eat them!

So we'll have a rest week this week, take things easy.  Relax.  Play some cards.  Watch junk Dattime TV.  Rest up.  Kick back.  Play these West Indian lads that come from the islands that does be in maybe a different part of the world to us that we don't care about......................... and wait for them sneering f**ks, the Aussies, to show up expecting us to roll over"

You're right Geordie - beware the banana skin of the island people. Wink

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Post by jimmyinthewell68 Wed 19 Nov 2014 - 19:23

The media will expect ,no sorry the media will demand England put 40 points on Samoa Saturday and anything else will mean one pressure on poor lancaster

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Post by HammerofThunor Wed 19 Nov 2014 - 19:31

SecretFly wrote:"Okay lads, let's not f**king panic, or be led astray by the bastards on social media outlets, like them bollixes on that 606 shytehole!  We know what we have to do.  Australia is here in two weeks and we're going to show the world what we do to a bunch of fancy birds in yellow feathers  - that's right!  We pluck the f**king c***s and eat them!

So we'll have a rest week this week, take things easy.  Relax.  Play some cards.  Watch junk Dattime TV.  Rest up.  Kick back.  Play these West Indian lads that come from the islands that does be in maybe a different part of the world to us that we don't care about......................... and wait for them sneering f**ks, the Aussies, to show up expecting us to roll over"

You're right Geordie - beware the banana skin of the island people. Wink

I think you spelt canaries wrong. You only used 5 letters

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Post by SecretFly Wed 19 Nov 2014 - 19:33

I was too imbarrassed to ask how to spelle it.

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Post by The Saint Wed 19 Nov 2014 - 19:39

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
yappysnap wrote:25 different players, bonkers.

I assume teams like Ireland, SA and NZ have maybe had 5 or 6, likewise Wales. Scotland have probably gone through a lot more as have Oz.

Wales have had a fair few in the centre during that time too (J Roberts, J Davies, Sc Williams, O Williams, C Allen, G North have all started there since the last AIs)

If Greenwood retired in 2005, then since that year we've had the following in the centre (and this is just off the top of my head):

Gavin Henson
Tom Shanklin
Mark Taylor
Ceri Sweeney
Hal Luscombe
Gavin Evans
Andrew Bishop
Jamie Roberts
Jonathan Davies
Ashley Beck
Owen Williams
George North
Cory Allen

I may have a couple missing from that list, but I bet there's a few names you didn't expect, or would like to forget about...

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 19 Nov 2014 - 20:26

Saint, were Matthew J Watkins and Jamie Robinson during that time too?
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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Nov 2014 - 20:34

Was Luscombe that late thought he was earlier, there are a few there to send a shudder down any Welsh fans spine.
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Post by The Saint Wed 19 Nov 2014 - 20:52

Yes SS you're correct, there's also Gareth Thomas and Sonny Parker. Bedford, Hal was involved in the 2005 AIs and 2006 six nations I think, the others were involved during the Gareth Jenkins era. Looking back it makes grateful for the players we have available in the present era.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Nov 2014 - 21:00

Yeah you're right, I remember him being in the 05 set up now there are def some names that wish weren't on that list Smile
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 19 Nov 2014 - 21:05

Daf James slot in there at some point surely.
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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Nov 2014 - 21:09

Would have thought so, I remember watching Ebbw against Bridgend with him and Alfie as the centre pairing and they ripped us to shreds at will but don't think they ever formed that combo for Wales.
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