Scotland vs New Zealand- back at Murrayfield after 109 years of trying- will it end in less than 24 hours?

The Original All Blacks (also known simply as "The Originals") were the first New Zealand national rugby union team to tour outside Australasia. They toured the British Isles, France and the United States of America during 1905–1906. Their opening game was against Devon on 16 September 1905 whom they defeated 55–4. Such was the surprise that some newspapers in Britain printed that Devon had scored 55 points and not the All Blacks. They went on to defeat every English side that they faced, including a 16–3 victory over English county champions Durham, and a 32–0 victory over Blackheath. They defeated Scotland, Ireland and England with the closest of the three matches their 12–7 victory over Scotland.

At the time of the Tour, rugby in Scotland was a game of the upper classes, and the Scottish Rugby Union (SRU) was very conservative. Their officials believed the game should remain strictly amateur, and that rugby was for the players, not the spectators. The Scottish were uncomfortable with the public interest in the All Blacks, and did not make them feel very welcome. They interpreted a letter sent to them stating that the All Blacks did not want to be entertained after their match quite literally, and the All Blacks were not invited to the after-match dinner organised by the Scottish Union. As well as this, the SRU refused to grant international caps for the game.

The game was a financial success for the NZRFU. The NZRFU had asked for a £500 financial guarantee from the SRU for the game, but because of their poor finances, the SRU offered instead to give the entire gate (minus expenses). Due to a big attendance, the NZRFU received a fee of over £1700 for the game. Although the SRU were very happy with this (they offered the same terms to the Springboks when they toured in 1906), there were also concerns about the three shillings a day each All Black received whilst on tour. After they found that the Rugby Football Union had approved the payments, a Calcutta Cup match was cancelled.

The game was played on 18 November on an icy pitch (straw had not been spread over the pitch the night before), which nearly caused the game to be cancelled. The All Blacks kicked off, and had the best of the first ten minutes. Scotland eventually got a scrum near the All Blacks goal-line, and after winning the scrum, passed to Ernest Simson, who dropped a goal to put Scotland ahead 4–0. It was the first time the All Blacks had been behind on tour. The All Blacks replied with a try under the posts, which was unconverted. A second try was then scored, by Smith; again it went unconverted. Scotland then scored an unconverted try, to lead at half time 7–6. With less than ten minutes to go the score remained 7–6 and it looked like the All Blacks might lose their first match on tour. However, with four minutes to go the All Blacks had a scrum on halfway; the resulting movement finished with George Smith crossing for a try. Bill Cunningham then scored a try with seconds remaining, and the All Blacks were victorious 12–7.

Since then the sides have met another 28 times with the All Blacks winning 27 out of 29 overall, Scotland drawing twice in 1964 (0-0) and 1983 (24-24), at an average of 30 to 11, 4 tries to one.

Unfortunately for Scotland they didn’t get to play the ‘Invincibles’ of 1924 due to perceived money issues and it both robbed Scotland a potential win over the AB’s at a time where they had one of their better periods in the sport, and it also cost the AB’s a potential grand slam, something they had to wait until 1978 for.

Over the years there have been some key moments- Colin Meads being sent from the field at Murrayfield in 1964 being one.

The reason I write this article is because since that first meeting on November 18, 1905- almost 109 years to the day at exactly the same ground, with the selection of this All Black side Scotland probably have their best chance for some time to finally topple the men in black.

Scottish rugby has been a bit lean in terms of results in recent years and with last week’s very convincing win over an Argentina side that has beaten Australia this year and has regularly pushed the other Rugby Championship sides close several times. And under the coaching of NZ’s Vern Cotter, this could to some extent turn the lean run around if the Scots manage to get up for this one.

I for one am happy for the reasons Hansen has given for this selection and fully expect his side to live up to every aspect of that that is All Black rugby, and will be offering full congratulations to Scotland should they win, knowing that it will make at least one or two Scottish supporters happy and that would be great, so for me, I can’t really lose regardless of the result.

Good luck All Blacks…Good luck Scotland!!

Scotland vs. All Blacks at Murrayfield, Edinburgh. Kickoff: 17:30 local, 04:30 NZT
Full teams:
Scotland: 15 Stuart Hogg, 14 Sean Maitland, 13 Mark Bennett, 12 Alex Dunbar, 11 Tommy Seymour, 10 Finn Russell, 9 Greig Laidlaw (c), 8 Adam Ashe, 7 Blair Cowan, 6 Rob Harley, 5 Jonny Gray, 4 Richie Gray, 3 Euan Murray, 2 Ross Ford, 1 Alasdair Dickinson.
Bench: 16 Fraser Brown, 17 Gordon Reid, 18 Geoff Cross, 19 Tim Swinson, 20 Johnnie Beattie, 21 Chris Cusiter, 22 Duncan Weir, 23 Sean Lamont.

All Blacks: 15 Ben Smith, 14 Colin Slade, 13 Malakai Fekitoa, 12 Ryan Crotty, 11 Charles Piutau, 10 Dan Carter, 9 TJ Perenara, 8 Victor Vito, 7 Sam Cane, 6 Richie McCaw (c), 5 Dominic Bird, 4 Jeremy Thrush, 3 Charlie Faumuina, 2 James Parsons, 1 Joe Moody
Bench: 16 Dane Coles, 17 Wyatt Crockett, 18 Ben Franks, 19 Luke Romano, 20 Liam Messam, 21 Augustine Pulu, 22 Sonny Bill Williams, 23 Julian Savea

Done with the help of these links:
http://rugbywrapup.com/2014/11/blacks-vs-scotland-preview
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Original_All_Blacks

*Just reading up on that game 18 Nov 1905 at Inverleith, Scotland were leading that game with 7-6 with four minutes to go, then the ABs went on to score two tries.

One of the AB try scorers was a guy by the name of Glasgow.

A New Zealander by the name of Fell, who had already played for 7 times for Scotland, was selected to play for Scotland, but he declined the selection as he refused to play against his own country, he was replaced by Louis Greig who later went on to play tennis at Wimbledon.

It was all go in those days.

*Info from "Men in Black"

aucklandlaurie wrote:
*Just reading up on that game 18 Nov 1905 at Inverleith, Scotland were leading that game with 7-6 with four minutes to go, then the ABs went on to score two tries.

One of the AB try scorers was a guy by the name of Glasgow.

A New Zealander by the name of Fell, who had already played for 7 times for Scotland, was selected to play for Scotland, but he declined the selection as he refused to play against his own country, he was replaced by Louis Greig who later went on to play tennis at Wimbledon.

It was all go in those days.

*Info from "Men in Black"

I kinda have a lot of respect for that sentiment.  I think it's noble.  

So I'm always conflicted when players who were born in one Nation meet their own Nation - we have a few of those now in Ireland camp and I honour them for representing me.  It can produce dubious emotions but largely when I see the passion in these players to stand shoulder to shoulder with their mates and meet their own Nation on the field (Strauss an example) I feel humbled and have that strong urge to make him feel welcome, wanted and appreciated.  And they are as individuals.
But I never lose that unease that a player would choose a different Nation to his own.  And if a player requested not to play his own Nation, I'd understand that emotion even now and fully support the idea that he should be afforded that grace to step back from such games without risking his presence in the team generally.

Yes, its got a moral ethic about it. the trouble is New Zealanders are the biggest of these rugby sluts, they will play or coach for anyone against anyone.

The price of fame and talent, laurie

When you can walk the walk, you have a price tag on your ass that many people are willing to pay for

Taylorman,
Nice article, balanced, well written and enlightening. Thank you.
I'm looking forward to tomorrows game immensely. I hope it's a game that we canal enjoy regardless of which side of he planet we are from and which side of the off-side line we enter the fray from.....
Good luck to your boys. As I've said before it will be the dawn of something special for both sides. I'm guessing that you may have to get up early to see the match? I hope you have the time and space to enjoy it and we all have something to celebrate as a result of it.

Anglobraveheart wrote:Taylorman,
Nice article, balanced, well written and enlightening. Thank you.
I'm looking forward to tomorrows game immensely. I hope it's a game that we canal enjoy regardless of which side of he planet we are from and which side of the off-side line we enter the fray from.....
Good luck to your boys. As I've said before it will be the dawn of something special for both sides. I'm guessing that you may have to get up early to see the match? I hope you have the time and space to enjoy it and we all have something to celebrate as a result of it.

Thanks Braveheart. Yes it says 4.30am NZ time yet my Sky recording starts at 6am but regardless its the usual early one. All our overseas matches bar Oz are early morning. If we're honest a match against Scotland is usually about how many points we are going to win by but that's certainly not the feeling we have here, and the possibility of a loss makes this all the more interesting.

Our guys know the record is at stake and the challenge is simply to find out how deep we bat at this level, supposedly putting all these players in he position of 'what if we have to go to our bench in a semi final?' scenario. Obviously we aren't going to have to change the entire side but having so many on at once perhaps simulates what'll be required if any of them are suddenly called up.

For Scotland Vern Cotters influence concerns me. the guy knows NZ rugby through and through and will have an idea how to approach this side- targeting the inexperience and potential stage fright of several, while trying to keep the McCaws and carters under wraps. He will have been as surprised as everyone, so will earn his buks if he pulls it off. Should be great.

This weeks a good one being at 6:00am, at least its nearly daylight.

That is still a very good All Black team, although I doubt whether the result will go Scotland's way it would be great to see them push the men in black hard.

The saddest part of that article was that Scotland refused to play 1924-5 "Invincibles"
which they had a chance of the Classic Grand Slam denied them.Scotland were the
best team of the period and may have beaten the AB`s.

Gonna lock this thread to prevent discussions over 2 threads - will refer you to the original one

https://www.606v2.com/t56359-scotland-v-new-zealand-november-15th