Why can't we have proper journalism

I've been off work this week and stuck at home. I've read the papers kindly provided by Hughie in the pub daily. I am impressed with the quality of journalism in the papers he provides, until I turn to Wales on line



I'll give an example:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-columnists/2011/04/11/david-young-s-credentials-to-become-next-wales-coach-91466-28495538/

What a steaming pile of horse Poopie.

The cynic in me thinks that the Cardiff Blues are sick of Dai and are getting their pet rag to talk him up.

Any thoughts?

(Hobo don't tweet this )

As I said Andy Bowell is the worst of the lot. I gather the Western Fail used to have a gleaming reputation, but now it's nothing more than gutter press.

What do you mean by proper journalism? Not a trick question just what are you looking to see and what exactly if the Welsh journalist approach.

Stag - I think in Welsh papers it wouldn't hurt to have an actually balanced, intelligent view on whatever subject matter it is they are writing about. Too often I get half way through an article and have to stop as it is just a pile of complete and utter Poopie. I stoped reading the Western Fail years ago for that reason.

My own take is that while the standard is off the boil I think people may have made up their minds about the papers already.

If Western Mail got a new exciting rugby journalist in the morning I guarantee there would be people dismissing what they write on the grounds that it is the "Western Fail".

I really cringe when I read some stuff that Hugh Farrelly comes out with in the Irish Independent. Or that George Hook tends to produce. Rugby journalism is always about opinion and I think in Wales which is a very parochial rugby country opinions are a dangerous thing.

As far as I'm concerned in a proper paper you have articles and you have columns. A column is a place for provoking thought, editorialising and if you want pursuing an agenda. Articles are reports of news and therefore need to be accurate, balanced and well written. Every paper has it's editorial line and agenda and these can be hinted at in articles, but they should not compromise the accuracy or balance of an article. The Western Mail constantly editorialise and pursue not so hidden agendas in their articles and as to accuracy and prose, well, well, well. The Irish Independent, Scotsman, Belfast Telegraph and Guardian in Hughie's daily round up are shining beacons comparatively.

Columnists are expressing their own personal opinions not reporting on current affairs as such. There's a difference. In the high court last year a celebrity tried to sue a newspaper because they said a columnist had insulted them in their article. The case was unsuccessful because the newspaper was not considered responsibile for the opinions of a columnist's musings. The point I'm making is that one columnist doesn't necessarily reflect the standard of journalism in one place.

Also, different newspapers will come from different persepctives which will affect the articles written. For example if you compare articles in The Independent to The Daily Telegraph - they're very different, even the sports sections.

That's my point Cari. The Western Mail don't have columnists, it's all written as articles in the corporate voice. Stag moans about columnists in the Indo, but he can take them or leave them and still be informed by the articles. I also object to the influence over the WRU, but that's another thread entirely.

Glas I don't moan about it. I enjoy that side of it. Its often banging head against brick wall but they are good reads.

Glas a du wrote:That's my point Cari. The Western Mail don't have columnists, it's all written as articles in the corporate voice. Stag moans about columnists in the Indo, but he can take them or leave them and still be informed by the articles. I also object to the influence over the WRU, but that's another thread entirely.

I see what you mean now.

I do wonder where their rugby pundits come from. One thing they are good at is making a story out of nothing. Like someone can make some brief, throwaway comment at a press conference and the TWM will have it as headline news on their backpage the following day. They repeat a lot of stories as well.

I'm not sure that rugby has any journalists that are not columnists expressing personal opinion - that's the nature of the subject. The Western Mail is particularly poor though the whole paper being a low end rag. Better to modify your expectations than expect any quality improvement !

Thats my point Offload. Many newspapers will put announcements about tournaments/teams to print but a journalist will always give opinion. Even if its just a squad announcement he will say what he thinks and why.

Staggy - they don't on the BBC. When they do squad announcements they just say who's in who's out, a couple of quotes from a press conference and a bit about the fixtures.

Cari wrote:Staggy - they don't on the BBC. When they do squad announcements they just say who's in who's out, a couple of quotes from a press conference and a bit about the fixtures.

Thats not journalism. Thats something an untrained 12 year old could put together.

red_stag wrote:

Cari wrote:Staggy - they don't on the BBC. When they do squad announcements they just say who's in who's out, a couple of quotes from a press conference and a bit about the fixtures.

Thats not journalism. Thats something an untrained 12 year old could put together.

Yeah but they are employed as journalists aren't they?

I'd rather read a one sided view than no view at all.

News doesn't sell - stories sell. I'm in the information business and none of my clients (high end professionals) want news, what they want and will pay for is insight. Doesn't matter if it's controversial opinion, it just needs to come from someone that has some respect and credibility.

It's the same with rugby and I agree with Stag - a one sided view is better than no view. Read the Mail for what it is and don't let your blood pressure suffer.

My main complaint about the Western Mail is how badly its journalists write. I have to assume that the sports editor either doesn't notice how badly written their articles are or he just doesn't bother checking their work.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:My main complaint about the Western Mail is how badly its journalists write. I have to assume that the sports editor either doesn't notice how badly written their articles are or he just doesn't bother checking their work.

I picked up a discarded copy of the Sun on the Tube once. The grammer was so bad even page 3 wasn't that tempting ...

Kiwireddevil wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:My main complaint about the Western Mail is how badly its journalists write. I have to assume that the sports editor either doesn't notice how badly written their articles are or he just doesn't bother checking their work.

I picked up a discarded copy of the Sun on the Tube once. The grammer was so bad even page 3 wasn't that tempting ...

Kiwi

They do come up with some classic headlines though. Like this:

http://www.mcgarvey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/caledonian.jpg

Kiwireddevil wrote:................... The grammer was so bad even page 3 wasn't that tempting ...

Colons not prominent enough for your tastes?

I think the problem here in wales is both the size and make up of the country.
Two papers can call themselves the national paper of Wales, the western Mail and the daily Post.
One is prepared and printed in Cardiff, the other is from Liverpool and consequently neither actually fits the bill .
The (journo's phrase here) "so-called" national dailies are merely English papers that sometimes have a Welsh-ish edition, but generally it means that all things Welsh do tend to get overlooked whether it be sport or politics.
This in turn, leads rags like the WM to become very parochial leading the reader to think that the paper is actually a CARDIFF paper.
Across the board though standards have dropped, and I do still buy the WM basically a hangover from the days of john Billot and JBG Thomas.

I hate that the Western Mail declares itself 'the national newspaper of Wales' and they way its journalists seem to think they speak for the nation. I'd hate for people coming to Cardiff for an international match to think that the Western Mail's claim is genuine.

Kiwireddevil wrote:I picked up a discarded copy of the Sun on the Tube once. The grammer was so bad even page 3 wasn't that tempting ...

The irony

I understand why The Western Mail gets a lot of criticism but I think overall the paper can be hit or miss. Take for example these 2 articles the first one is by Delme Parfitt who's an awful rugby writer as this article shows.

Someone tell me the errors with this article about the Blues ?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/cardiff-blues/2011/04/06/dai-banks-on-young-guns-to-fire-blues-91466-28467464/

Yet this article about the Welsh Regions failure in the Heineken Cup written by Andy Howell who I do like (because like him or not he always speaks his mind) is a good article. It's hard to disagree with much in his write up about our regions dismal performance in Europe.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/05/23/analysis-leinster-s-heineken-cup-triumph-highlights-wales-euro-failure-91466-28741961/

In my experience, Andy Howell's articles are the most badly written. I don't mean the content of his articles necessarily, but his use of English.

What I dislike about Andy Bowell is how he still bangs on about the Paul Turner business. With that, he always mentions the incident and refers to himself in the third person similar to this "Turner launched a public rant at a Media Wales reporter following Dragons’ Heineken Cup loss to Glasgow"

He loves that incident, Rev, and he goes on about it because is makes him feel big. He probably refers to himself as a Media Wales reporter because people might sympathise until they find out it's him!