English teams often seem to include a player whos played down under

Just thinking about Paterson and His NZ background playing NZ. So here's a question to see who's knowledgeable. Sorry if the question is long winded. Might surprise you.

None of them... they've all had an ingredient.

There's a bonus if you can name the players (I think there are 8 in this time period).

I can think of Johnson, Dean Ryan, Hape, Haskell, Tom Wood, Henry Paul, Flutey, Vainikolo and Waldrom. Dylan Hartley moved to England too young to play any significant rugby in NZ.

What level are we talking here? Tom Palmer spent more than a year there after A levels.

Is this a poll or a quiz

sickofwendy wrote:Is this a poll or a quiz

It's a two week holiday to the Maldives with £5000 spending money! Keep thinking!

 
I am

Ok, a terrible post. Not my best effort.

The answer is 1998, by my calculations. I was somewhat surprised.
The players are:
Tom Wood (North Otago)
Dylan Hartley (Rotorua Boys High School)
James Haskell (Highlanders)
Shontayne Hape (NZ secondary schools)
Tom Palmer (NZ secondary schools)
Riki Flutey (NZ Maori)
Mark Van Ginsbergen (Chiefs)
Simon Shaw (Dunedin Club Rugby)
Martin Johnson (NZ under 21's)

Looks like 9. I wonder if Matt Symons will have what it takes after a year or two with the chiefs.

I wonder when the last time a player with South African rugby experience.

bit disingenuous this post. we dont recruit kiwis. never have. never will. but some smart young players decide that NZ is the best place to learn their rugby trade and move there at 18/19, and i say fair play to them.

martin johnston was recruited by a kiwi to go play for kings county when he was 19. he was and is 100% english and the only reason he played AB colts was he hadnt played rugby in England!

simon shaw went there age 17/18 to see if he could make it playing rugby against the best.

haskell, same.

tom wood, same.

wonder what the story would be for NZ teams and pacific island born players....

quinsforever wrote:bit disingenuous this post. we dont recruit kiwis. never have. never will. but some smart young players decide that NZ is the best place to learn their rugby trade and move there at 18/19, and i say fair play to them.

martin johnston was recruited by a kiwi to go play for kings county when he was 19. he was and is 100% english and the only reason he played AB colts was he hadnt played rugby in England!

simon shaw went there age 17/18 to see if he could make it playing rugby against the best.

haskell, same.

tom wood, same.

wonder what the story would be for NZ teams and pacific island born players....

It's not disingenuous. I'm not suggesting you're recruiting kiwis. I'm just interested that theirs a connection. I'm surprised that it goes so far). I'd say there are several types of players.
1. Kiwi's playing in England who've qualified through residency (Hape and Van Ginsbergen)
2. Players from NZ with English heritage (Hartley and Flutey)
3. Players who spent a year or two in NZ at a young age to further their rugby education (Johnston, Shaw, Palmer and Wood)
4. Players on a professional contact (Haskell)

Fair enough about pacific islanders. Note the test is played in the Islands, not born their or a family connection (that's why Vunipola's not mentioned), playing their home side. It probably goes back at least a similar time. Probably aren't as many players as most people think. (i.e. most PI players in AB's born or raised in NZ and we don't play the Island nations anywhere near as often as I'd like).

Actually I just checked. NZ played samoa 5 times. last time was 2008 (Samoa deserve more games). That side had two players born in Samoa. Both Miliana and Toeava started primary school in NZ. I'd say that answers it, unless 3 and 4 year olds running around on a paddock counts.  There weren't any Samoan born AB's in the game prior to this in 2001. A better one would probably be Samoans with NZ rugby background playing for Samoa. Just checked there's NZ born and bred players representing Samoa in every match.

We played South Africa in 2004 with:

England: J Robinson (capt); M Cueto, H Paul, M Tindall, J Lewsey; C Hodgson, A Gomarsall; G Rowntree, S Thompson, J White, D Grewcock, S Borthwick, J Worsley, L Moody, M Corry.
Replacements: A Titterell, A Sheridan, B Kay, A Hazell, H Ellis, W Greenwood, B Cohen.

Don't think any of these played in South Africa. Guys tend to go to New Zealand more...you know, cuz you're so awesome and that.

HammerofThunor wrote:We played South Africa in 2004 with:

England: J Robinson (capt); M Cueto, H Paul, M Tindall, J Lewsey; C Hodgson, A Gomarsall; G Rowntree, S Thompson, J White, D Grewcock, S Borthwick, J Worsley, L Moody, M Corry.
Replacements: A Titterell, A Sheridan, B Kay, A Hazell, H Ellis, W Greenwood, B Cohen.

Don't think any of these played in South Africa. Guys tend to go to New Zealand more...you know, cuz you're so awesome and that.

Ha, ha. I doubt we're that good. I suspect there's a more mundane reason. It might be that it's harder to get players into SA clubs, or NZ club rugby gives them a point of difference in a skill set. I suspect it's just a quirk of history.

I'd be interested to know how many AB's have played in the England. I'm pretty certain Ben Smith played for a club in Bristol.

Saw this on the weekend

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/10156552/Tom-Wood-has-debt-to-pay-to-his-Kiwi-mentors

I honestly don't know why more of the NH don't come here for a season or two at the beginning of their career. If its accepted that we generally produce amongst the best rugby players then why not get amongst them at an early stage- particularly at our grass roots levels, as that's where the heart of our rugby is.

We probably do have several more and what we are seeing in this list is just those that reached test level.

But kiwis love having overseas players at their clubs and as Tom says they do get looked after. Plus its an opportunity to travel, meet people and above all really test yourself in an environment that probably loves the game more than they do themselves.

blackcanelion wrote:I'm pretty certain Ben Smith played for a club in Bristol.

http://www.espn.co.uk/newzealand/rugby/story/205751.html

blackcanelion wrote:Ok, a terrible post. Not my best effort.

The answer is 1998, by my calculations. I was somewhat surprised.
The players are:
Tom Wood (North Otago)
Dylan Hartley (Rotorua Boys High School)
James Haskell (Highlanders)
Shontayne Hape (NZ secondary schools)
Tom Palmer (NZ secondary schools)
Riki Flutey (NZ Maori)
Mark Van Ginsbergen (Chiefs)
Simon Shaw (Dunedin Club Rugby)
Martin Johnson (NZ under 21's)

You've missed some of the names I mentioned above. Dean Ryan (Bay of Plenty) played for England in 1998, so I'm afraid your answer is wrong.

In the amateur era, Australia was more popular as a destination for a rugby player with itchy feet. New Zealand may have had the rugby nous but  there were better working opportunities in Australia. Now that the game is professional, a player might well choose to go for the biggest challenge to improve career prospects. There's not much of a window, though, now that players are getting caps and premiership contracts earlier.

When John Gallagher went to NZ, they had to pull out the stops to keep him. He had already accepted a deferred job offer with the Met Police in London. NZ conjured up an offer with their local force despite the fact it was highly irregular to do so for a twenty year old with no previous policing experience. His club boss, Don Bond, pulled a few strings. He knew which ones to pull to get a visa - he became Director of NZ Immigration a few years later.

a better poll would be when did NZ last field a side that didn't contain at least one player that could have played for Samoa/Fiji/Tonga/The Cook Islands/Guava/Pitcairn

Or maybe a poll like, how many ABs qualify to play for England through ancestry but chose not to because they are NZ'ers?

blackcanelion wrote:Ha, ha. I doubt we're that good. I suspect there's a more mundane reason. It might be that it's harder to get players into SA clubs, or NZ club rugby gives them a point of difference in a skill set. I suspect it's just a quirk of history.

I'd be interested to know how many AB's have played in the England. I'm pretty certain Ben Smith played for a club in Bristol.

I might have said it in a arsy way but the New Zealand setup is has to be considered one of the best in the world. Small population, consistently the, or one of the, best teams in the world.

ebop wrote:Or maybe a poll like, how many ABs qualify to play for England through ancestry but chose not to because they are NZ'ers?

no, my one is more fun

No, your one is the same

Ebop, you are aware that Scratch is Welsh, right? Just because you responded to him with a comment about England.

Scratch, so you want to know how many All Blacks have a grandparent from the Islands? Surely it would be more interesting to look at how many All Blacks grew up in the Islands.

Rugby Fan wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:Ok, a terrible post. Not my best effort.

The answer is 1998, by my calculations. I was somewhat surprised.
The players are:
Tom Wood (North Otago)
Dylan Hartley (Rotorua Boys High School)
James Haskell (Highlanders)
Shontayne Hape (NZ secondary schools)
Tom Palmer (NZ secondary schools)
Riki Flutey (NZ Maori)
Mark Van Ginsbergen (Chiefs)
Simon Shaw (Dunedin Club Rugby)
Martin Johnson (NZ under 21's)

You've missed some of the names I mentioned above. Dean Ryan (Bay of Plenty) played for England in 1998, so I'm afraid your answer is wrong.

In the amateur era, Australia was more popular as a destination for a rugby player with itchy feet. New Zealand may have had the rugby nous but  there were better working opportunities in Australia. Now that the game is professional, a player might well choose to go for the biggest challenge to improve career prospects. There's not much of a window, though, now that players are getting caps and premiership contracts earlier.

When John Gallagher went to NZ, they had to pull out the stops to keep him. He had already accepted a deferred job offer with the Met Police in London. NZ conjured up an offer with their local force despite the fact it was highly irregular to do so for a twenty year old with no previous policing experience. His club boss, Don Bond, pulled a few strings. He knew which ones to pull to get a visa - he became Director of NZ Immigration a few years later.

You could be right.

Here's my take on the ones that you listed and I missed:
Dean Ryan. Don't think he played a test against NZ. Pretty sure he only played 4 matches (Canada, Argentina (2) and Scotland). Don't think he was in the match day squads for the tests in 1998.
Henry Paul. Same as above. 6 Tests (Australia, Canada, France, Italy, Scotland and South Africa)
Lesley Vainikolo. Same as above. Played 6 nations 2008.
Thomas Waldrom. Same as above. Played South Africa, Italy, Ireland and Australia.

I suspect your right about Aussie in the Amateur era. Apart from those thieving buggers at Ories bringing in overseas talent to to try and beat genuine teams like Poneke. British players at provincial level are pretty few historically. Kipper was great AB. Glad to have seen him. I wonder if he'd ever made the English side if he'd stayed in the UK. I think he doubts it.

Frederick Jackson is probably the most influential import. He was on the Anglo-Welsh tour of NZ in 1908, but was banned by the RFU because he'd apparently accepted money to play games for Swansea and Swinton. He emigrated to NZ, who he represented at league, selected for the East coast, fathered an All Black prop and was grandfather of a notable Maori activist.  

NZ, SA and Australia players have been representing Home unions since the 19th century. I think the most ironic is the great Scottish backline of the twenties that included both an All Black and Wallaby captain (In the good old days plenty of southerners read at British universities and thereby qualified for a home union).

blackcanelion wrote:...Don't think he played a test against NZ....

Sorry, didn't see your NZ qualifier.