Send one fighter back

by **88Chris05** Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:28 pm

Afternoon, lads.

Haz's 'Bring One Fighter Back' thread was a hit and generated some nice debate, so let's flip it on its head; what fighter of today (or to give us a little more scope, let's say from the turn of the century onwards) would you send back in time to a particular era, and why?

It doesn't necessarily have to be because you're a fan, either. If you're a harsh critic of Wlad, then maybe you'd want to send him back to the golden era of Heavyweights in the seventies, so that you could see those frailties you've told everyone about ruthlessly exposed, for example.

On the other hand, maybe you think someone of today just has a style that would be more effective and appreciated in a bygone era, or perhaps their weight class is a little thin these days, so you'd want to send them back to a time when it was thriving, to see just how good they actually are?

I wouldn't have one in mind in particular, but as an example; how about sending Ward back to the Super-Middleweight scene of around 1993-1996, with peak versions of Jones, Toney and McClellan around to test him? Roy stated a couple of years back that, if he had to pick a fighter from 160 to 175 across all eras who would give him the very hardest examination possible when at his best, it would have been Ward. Would be interesting to see if Ward could live up to that lofty praise.

Any takers? Ta very much, fellas.

by **superflyweight** Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:38 pm

Throw Duran back into the lightweight mix at the tail end of the '20s and through the '30s. Throws up potential matches against against (an ageing) Benny Leonard, Barney Ross, Canzoneri, McLarnin, Armstrong, Ambers and Angnott.

Lovely stuff. If Duran comes through that lot unscathed you'd be looking at the greatest lightweight of all time and a comfortable place in the top 5 greatest fighters.

by Izzi Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:42 pm

Khan to get splattered, send him back to any era.

RJJ to prove that fancy quick hands against the powerhouses such as Clinton Woods don't do much for you when there weren't PEDs around and the old guys were tough as nails. Sent back to face SRR for a schooling.

Mayweather, would be lynched inside a day the amount he runs his mouth. Pre 1920.

Froch back to face Benn, Jesus wept could you imagine the war? The trenches? The warrior trenches?

Seriously though, Froch vs Benn would be one fight I'd have been frothing at the mouth for.

by Hammersmith harrier Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:46 pm

You have serious issues with Jones don't you Izzi?

I'd send Hopkins back to the 40's to see how he deals with the BMR, Robinson, Charles and Moore.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:51 pm

Throw Mayweather back to light in the 70s to beat Buchanan so he can make no mas a mere footnote in history

by **88Chris05** Tue 11 Feb 2014, 1:57 pm

I think the Lightweight division in the years of the Depression was probably the best boxing has ever seen in such a small time frame, Superfly. You can throw Kid Chocolate and Wes Ramey in to the mix as well, terrifyingly enough.

Duran was just such a supreme specimen and all-round fighter at 135 lb that you'd have to fancy him to come out with a very good combined record against them, for me. Benny (allowing for Newspaper Decisions) went a combined 26-7-1 against an outstanding Lightweight (sometimes a shade higher) crop of Welsh, Tendler, Britton, Kilbane, Dundee, Kansas, Ritchie, White, Mitchell, Bartfield and Moran, without having a losing record to any of them (only Kilbane and Ritchie held him at 1-1) and in most cases the decisions he dropped were when he was in his teens or barely out of them, but the Depression crop were a cut above even that. I think if Duran (or anyone) had managed a ledger like that against the guys you've listed their place as the greatest Lightweight would be unquestionable.

by milkyboy Tue 11 Feb 2014, 2:30 pm

I'd send carl froch back to 1916, so he can test his warrior spirit and trench warfare skills against the Hun.

by milkyboy Tue 11 Feb 2014, 2:46 pm

Actually I'd drop mayweather back to the late 70's. Where assuming you could get him in the ring against them, he could initially fight duran at lightweight, then move up and enjoy a technical master class with benitez, have that tussle with Leonard we were discussing recently, test his defensive wizardry against Tommy's bombs, and maybe have fun pot-shotting the persistent assaults of Aaron Pryor.

We might have a better perception in the all time p4p debates after that lot.

Still like to see froch at the Somme though.

by **88Chris05** Tue 11 Feb 2014, 2:59 pm

Izzi wrote:RJJ to prove that fancy quick hands against the powerhouses such as Clinton Woods don't do much for you when there weren't PEDs around and the old guys were tough as nails. Sent back to face SRR for a schooling.

Nah, you don't want to send Jones back to Middleweight in the fifties. That lot would be too easy for him. Whistle

Can you imagine Jones against La Motta, Graziano, Olson etc? Massacres. Fair enough, Robinson even above his optimum weight and getting a little long in the tooth is going to give him a stern argument, but if you're so desperate to see Jones exposed (and I don't thnk he gets exposed in any era, even if he loses the odd one here or there) then I think there would be harder tests for him.

Regardless of whether you want him to prove how special you think he was by winning, or if you want to see him beaten and prove how overrated you've always said he was, I think there are two standout eras to send Jones back to; first off, you could try the early to mid twenties, to see him first take on Greb at 160 and then graduate up to 175 to challenge Tunney, or you drop him in the early to late seventies to put him against Monzon firstly at Middleweight, and then see him step up against Foster at Light-Heavy. If he stayed there long enough he could even meet a young Spinks.

by Guest Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:13 pm

What about the likes of Naz, Manny, Barrera, Morales and Marquez being sent back to face the likes of Sanchez and Nelson?

by Rowley Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:13 pm

If you really want to see Jones up against it chuck him into the light heavyweight mix of the early 40's. Charles and Moore in something in or around their pomp, Bivins on an absolute tear and other members of the BMR like Marshall providing a tough assignment for anyone. Add into that guys like Bettina or smaller guys like Burley flirting with the division and is a test for absolutely anyone.

Funnily enough that would be my choice. Do rate Jones but cannot quite get the niggling question out of my head whether he did get away with some stuff just due to his speed and a lack of guys capable of exposing some flaws. As I say I genuinely don't know the answer but the guys listed above would sure as hell answer it.

by milkyboy Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:17 pm

DAVE667 wrote:What about the likes of Naz, Manny, Barrera, Morales and Marquez being sent back to face the likes of Sanchez and Nelson?

'Send one fighter back' and Dave wants to hire a mini bus for the time machine.

by milkyboy Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:24 pm

You could send jones back to the early 90's and see how the over-rated ducker would get on against the likes of Hopkins, toney and mccallum.

That would give an idea if he was any good or not.

by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:25 pm

I would send Ricardo Lopez back about 90 years and get him to eat a few hearty meals so he was campaigning at Flyweight. He reigned as a world champ for around 12 years so I would send him back to 1920 and he could fight until the early 1930's.

That way he could match off against an aging Jimmy Wilde and an emerging Pancho Villa. Then he could face Fidel LaBarba, Frankie Genaro and finish off with my own personal hero, Young Perez. If he could cut a swathe through that little lot it would answer a few questions about how good he was.

It is bad enough that he didn't step up in weight and face Arbachakov, Gonzalez, Carbajal and Johnson when they were all around a few pounds of him so beating those old time legends will be enough for me.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:28 pm

Love to see an 85 Camacho v Manny and Jmm.

by Hammersmith harrier Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:28 pm

I've started to come round to the thought that Jones is a bit too quick for Moore, a legend no doubt but i'm never sure how he stacks up head to head. Charles and Burley would have the guile to push Jones to the limit, Charles knocks him out at light heavyweight (just too good for everyone) while Burley outpoints him at Middleweight.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:35 pm

Floyd back to the 70s or earlier, see how he likes fighting several times a year with less ability to duck his biggest challenges!!

by TopHat24/7 Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:39 pm

milkyboy wrote:You could send jones back to the early 90's and see how the over-rated ducker would get on against the likes of Hopkins, toney and mccallum.

That would give an idea if he was any good or not.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:41 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I would send Ricardo Lopez back about 90 years and get him to eat a few hearty meals so he was campaigning at Flyweight. He reigned as a world champ for around 12 years so I would send him back to 1920 and he could fight until the early 1930's.

That way he could match off against an aging Jimmy Wilde and an emerging Pancho Villa. Then he could face Fidel LaBarba, Frankie Genaro and finish off with my own personal hero, Young Perez. If he could cut a swathe through that little lot it would answer a few questions about how good he was.

It is bad enough that he didn't step up in weight and face Arbachakov, Gonzalez, Carbajal and Johnson when they were all around a few pounds of him so beating those old time legends will be enough for me.

Remember your, rather good, thread on him? Remember saying it was a cracking story that deserved a movie (more than most boxing movie story lines do)?

Well someone was listening - was released a couple of months ago in end-2013: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2658428/

by Mind the windows Tino. Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:47 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:I would send Ricardo Lopez back about 90 years and get him to eat a few hearty meals so he was campaigning at Flyweight. He reigned as a world champ for around 12 years so I would send him back to 1920 and he could fight until the early 1930's.

That way he could match off against an aging Jimmy Wilde and an emerging Pancho Villa. Then he could face Fidel LaBarba, Frankie Genaro and finish off with my own personal hero, Young Perez. If he could cut a swathe through that little lot it would answer a few questions about how good he was.

It is bad enough that he didn't step up in weight and face Arbachakov, Gonzalez, Carbajal and Johnson when they were all around a few pounds of him so beating those old time legends will be enough for me.

Remember your, rather good, thread on him? Remember saying it was a cracking story that deserved a movie (more than most boxing movie story lines do)?

Well someone was listening - was released a couple of months ago in end-2013: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2658428/

I remember the thread mate, way back when I used to contribute worthwhile things!

https://www.606v2.com/t27282-real-boxing-heroes-young-perez

Nice find on the film, TopHat. I had absolutely no idea that was around. I am genuinely excited by that.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 11 Feb 2014, 3:50 pm

Sadly it's a French film and I can't find how to get hold of it on DVD/Blu-Ray.

Pity as the 1 review on IMDB suggests it's a cracker.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 11 Feb 2014, 4:04 pm

Emmanuelle In Mexico...

by Izzi Tue 11 Feb 2014, 5:03 pm

milkyboy wrote:You could send jones back to the early 90's and see how the over-rated ducker would get on against the likes of Hopkins, toney and mccallum.

That would give an idea if he was any good or not.

I'm not getting in to it on this thread. I will leave words of green/legit/shot and move on, bite your tongue boy.

How about sending Naz back? Can give him Sanchez, Pedroza, Salvidar, Nelson etc in the early to late 70s?

Would fancy Sanchez to be too good. Far too good. For him.

by CallMeBenji Tue 11 Feb 2014, 5:07 pm

As a domestic one, I'd send Calzaghe back so his career began 5/6 years earlier. We'd then truly know who was the best of the lot in terms of Eubank, Benn, Watson, Collins and Joe.

We might also get to see Calzaghe set foot in a ring with a "peak" RJJ. I'm assuming, however, that by sending a fighter back in time they don't have to be promoted by the same guy. If they were then I can only assume that Frank Warren would still be stiking JC in with the Tocker Pudwill's of this world and avoiding RJJ like the plague....

by milkyboy Tue 11 Feb 2014, 5:34 pm

Izzi wrote:
milkyboy wrote:You could send jones back to the early 90's and see how the over-rated ducker would get on against the likes of Hopkins, toney and mccallum.

That would give an idea if he was any good or not.

I'm not getting in to it on this thread. I will leave words of green/legit/shot and move on, bite your tongue boy.

How about sending Naz back? Can give him Sanchez, Pedroza, Salvidar, Nelson etc in the early to late 70s?

Would fancy Sanchez to be too good. Far too good. For him.

Well done for your admirable restraint. Though I'd suggest green/'over-rated salad dodger'/shot to get Chris' attention next time you (almost) bite your tongue

Whichever, if only I could show such restraint when a Leonard hagler thread crops up.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 11 Feb 2014, 5:35 pm

Hoppo is prime If he wins..Green If he loses

Like Honey against Curry and Nelson against Sanchez

by Guest Tue 11 Feb 2014, 5:40 pm

Izzi wrote:
milkyboy wrote:You could send jones back to the early 90's and see how the over-rated ducker would get on against the likes of Hopkins, toney and mccallum.

That would give an idea if he was any good or not.

I'm not getting in to it on this thread. I will leave words of green/legit/shot and move on, bite your tongue boy.

How about sending Naz back? Can give him Sanchez, Pedroza, Salvidar, Nelson etc in the early to late 70s?

Would fancy Sanchez to be too good. Far too good. For him.

Naz would be an interesting one as he had great power at the weight but that aside he was a decent boxer when he wanted to be & before he began to believe in his own hype & power and just go looking for the ko from the off.

by Guest Tue 11 Feb 2014, 5:44 pm

I'd send Big Pants Lar back just to see if Rocky could actually carry his jock

by milkyboy Tue 11 Feb 2014, 6:36 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hoppo is prime If he wins..Green If he loses

Like Honey against Curry and Nelson against Sanchez

Some truth in that certainly truss, but it's not one-size fits all. Sometimes, you can see that guys are still on a learning curve. Open to debate on hoppo, though I think prime Roy beats him anytime regardless. zoomy was pretty green against Sanchez though for me. You only have to watch him in that fight compared to a few years later... tighter and less hung ho (arguably sometimes too energy conserving). Sanchez may have been the best education he could get.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 11 Feb 2014, 6:45 pm

Ok saying that milky...But my argument is who do these guys fight to get ready for Jones,Curry and Sanchez ??..

So they will never be ready..It's a leap of faith Mate.

by milkyboy Tue 11 Feb 2014, 7:21 pm

I agree to a large extent truss. You listen to Eddie telling you kel brook needs another eliminator and ask yourself what dramatic improvements he's going to make in one fight that he hasn't learnt in the previous 10 years. I Take you're point that sometimes there's mo bridge to prepare you for the step up... Certainly there's nothing in the heavyweight division currently that prepares you for a klit.

I also largely agree with the old premise that if you're good enough you're old enough.

I just wouldn't take it as far as you. Sanchez and nelson were similar ages, one of them had 40 odd fights one of them 12. In my view one was in his prime and one still had some learning to do. The Sanchez fight gave nelson stateside exposure and probably fast-tracked him and helped his career, but by say 1985, he was a more rounded fighter, in my view... And we'd have seen a different kind of fight. Sanchez would have known more about nelson and been able to prepare better too. The result might not have changed ( though I very much doubt he stops him), but a different fight none the less.

by Strongback Tue 11 Feb 2014, 7:29 pm

Surprised it wasn't mention. Send Ali back to get his lip buttoned by Louis.

by Hammersmith harrier Tue 11 Feb 2014, 7:36 pm

You actually think Louis beats Ali then?

by Rodney Tue 11 Feb 2014, 7:51 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You actually think Louis beats Ali then?

Highly possible , why are some posters so dismissive of Louis chances ? Henry Cooper proved if you hit Ali under the right circumstances his going down.

Cheers Rodders

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 11 Feb 2014, 8:00 pm

Conn,Braddock,schmelling,Galento and the fact he's a midget in comparison are enough reasons

by Hammersmith harrier Tue 11 Feb 2014, 8:08 pm

Rodney wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:You actually think Louis beats Ali then?

Highly possible , why are some posters so dismissive of Louis chances ? Henry Cooper proved if you hit Ali under the right circumstances his going down.

Cheers Rodders

Billy Conn blah blah

Ali showed against Frazier though even if you hit him with the perfect left hook he still gets back up, that is the shot he was vulnerable to not Louis' more famed short right hook.

Ali is too quick and too tough for Louis, I don't see what Louis has to offer that Liston, Foreman and Frazier didn't, they all hit just as hard but more importantly were a bit bigger too.

by md_fan Tue 11 Feb 2014, 9:19 pm

Prime Tyson Fury against Prime™ Mike Tyson would be a fun event. Would love to see Ward v Hagler also.

by Strongback Tue 11 Feb 2014, 10:08 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Conn,Braddock,schmelling,Galento and the fact he's a midget in comparison are enough reasons

Earnie Shavers was smaller than Louis. Didn't hurt his punching power.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 11 Feb 2014, 10:09 pm

In fairness to rod Louis offers more heart than Liston and an intimidatory presence second to none..more polished than George..

But he's too small for me..Just like Jack Johnson..

by TopHat24/7 Wed 12 Feb 2014, 9:28 am

Ali, JJ and Louis were all the same height, Ali just a stone heavier in weight - is that that much difference when considering such skilled operators?

It's not like we're talking of a HW-v-SuperHW type difference.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 12 Feb 2014, 9:45 am

Talking about size not weight...Berbick was probably the same weight as Schwarzenegger

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 12 Feb 2014, 9:49 am

Problem for Louis is - he moves like a cow whose thighs have been sewed together. Doesnt help against the finest footwork in the business

by TopHat24/7 Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:08 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Talking about size not weight...Berbick was probably the same weight as Schwarzenegger

Not sure I see your differential.

If they're the same height then surely weight is the main determinant of 'size'. Appreciate there can still be differences like broader shoulders or thicker legs, but my point was that we're not comparing a 5'10 190lb Rocky with a 6'6" 240lb Lewis, we're comparing 3 guys of equal height with one only 10-15lbs heavier.

by Strongback Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:12 am

ShahenshahG wrote:Problem for Louis is - he moves like a cow whose thighs have been sewed together. Doesnt help against the finest footwork in the business

A lot of misunderstanding in that statement.

by TopHat24/7 Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:24 am

Thought Louis used to show good economy of movement, all because he wasn't running around the ring. Always looked like he was 'stalking his prey'.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:31 am

Louis weighed in as a cruiserweight against Conn...which makes one assume that he was a small heavy at best and not a naturally bigger one like Ali..

Spinks weighed 215 for Tyson..Ali 215 for Liston..

One though is a natural...It's why weightjumping over the years is so hard

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:34 am

He does -I know it was an exaggeration but Louis is precise, and measured - slow but sure. Ali is faster and better, slow and steady won't cut it against him. There is nowhere where Louis is better than Ali where it counts except in punch power. Ali is faster of foot, faster of hand, better chin, better reflexes and his style is not susceptible to slow movers with sharp punches.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 12 Feb 2014, 10:39 am

Shah is spot on...Better all round fighter.

by huw Thu 13 Feb 2014, 9:49 am

Tough one, would love to have seen Naz against the guys in the 20's / 30's to see what they made of him.

Also Calzaghe back by six years as stated above would be interesting to watch.

Think I'd have to go for 'Prime' Mike Tyson back to the 70's, having him up against Liston, Foreman, Frazier and if there is anything left Ali.

Would be good to see how he can compare to those guys.

by Strongback Thu 13 Feb 2014, 8:09 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:He does -I know it was an exaggeration but Louis is precise, and measured - slow but sure. Ali is faster and better, slow and steady won't cut it against him. There is nowhere where Louis is better than Ali where it counts except in punch power. Ali is faster of foot, faster of hand, better chin, better reflexes and his style is not susceptible to slow movers with sharp punches.

Louis' defensive skills are vastly superior to Ali's. So are his infighting skills, punch variety and combination punching. There's nothing slow about Louis' hand speed which is the reason he could land triple left hooks.

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