English view point on the Anglo-Welsh league

So some of the other forums are having most of this talk in the English section. Here it's been mainly focused on the Welsh perspective. So all you English club rugby fans out here, what do you think of this idea?

For clarification, there have been a few articles floating around that solid offers are on the table for this league, both from the PRL and sponsors/broadcasters. The main suggestion is a 16 team Wanglo league. One Welsh team can get relegated but only one (seen different suggests for how this would work). Also the Regions have supposedly been offered £4M each (a season? One off? Don't know).

So do you think this a good idea? Bad idea? Ok but needs changing?

Below the options of for supporters of English clubs (so As counts even though he's Scottish). Additional options for English folk that don't support any pro club club and for the non-English view. For comments on the Welsh aspect to this please refer to
https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales

My personal view is I'd rather not. But it's going to happen that I would go for ring fencing pro rugby in England and go for a two tier 24 team set up. But I'm talking after the World Cup and with everyone's approval. I'd still prefer to stay as we are.

I agree the RRW should persevere with the R12
The RFU/ PRL should concentrate on creating 26 sustainable professional teams in two leagues. The access and subsequent interest would be a virtuous circle.

A bottom up structure is the way to go.

Are you up for a Wanglo league?

No.



In the current environment it would be bad for Rugby in Wales and bad for Rugby in England.  
It would destabilise Rugby in the Pro12 and also in the Premiership.  

The whole notion seems entirely reactive and not part of any sound sober judgement regarding a prudent path forwards for Rugby.  Not to say it is the wrong thing to do, but not now with things ready to shatter Rugby to the foundations.

And another thing, there is way too much drama.  I can't stand drama.  And it seems almost everyone involved from the WRU, RRW, PRL, RFU, IRB, FFR, LNR, SRU, IRFU, ERC, etc. are all a bunch of whinging drama queens.  Ruddy embarrassing.  All really need to grow up and work it out now.

I hope the regions read this thread and take heed. DO NOT JOIN!

They don't want us and it has no long term viability = suicide.

doctor_grey wrote:

Are you up for a Wanglo league?

No.



In the current environment it would be bad for Rugby in Wales and bad for Rugby in England.  
It would destabilise Rugby in the Pro12 and also in the Premiership.  

The whole notion seems entirely reactive and not part of any sound sober judgement regarding a prudent path forwards for Rugby.  Not to say it is the wrong thing to do, but not now with things ready to shatter Rugby to the foundations.

Absolutely - doesn't appear to be much if any thought going into this. Catalyst has been the majority 'no' to the RCC, then from PRL 'quick how do we fill a vacuum'....and the RRW provide the filler.

Genuinely believe RRW original interest in RCC was to call the WRU's bluff on funding and it failed, and now they have set their stall out they need to chase the income that it would appear only PRL can provide. However the outcome has some pretty bitter consequences:

- the whole current PRL structure and voting types and relegation - other than some pretty weak sticking plasters, fail to see how the circle is squared in the short term, especially when you add in player release too. Two different sets of rules for two sets of competitors? - If nothing else the whole European debacle tells us this ain't good.
- Pro 12 is goosed and impacts international rugby in Ireland, Scotland and Italy. While easy to say 'not our problem', if the 6 nations is devalued then it is everyone's problem.
- when, as i hope we do, we get back to organising a proper inclusive European competition, this adds just one more difficulty around who qualifies and why. Presume WRU will still want and get their places and this comes from new entrants in PRO12. What happens to English places if one or more of RRW finish in the top 6 of AP?

In short the only ones winning here in rugby terms are French! Can only see status quo or a full British and Irish league as true options (but this screws the Italians).

On another forum had about 50% saying no change. 10% expanding with English teams. 20% B&I league. Only 10% for a Wanglo league.

HammerofThunor wrote:On another forum had about 50% saying no change. 10% expanding with English teams. 20% B&I league. Only 10% for a Wanglo league.

10% want a Anglo-Welsh league?  Surprised it is that high.  

It is possible I am old fashioned and out of date, but I am British.  I tend to think in that context.  If anything fails or damages part of my country, then it is felt across the whole country.  If Rugby fails in part of my country, then it will clearly damage Rugby in other parts.   Simple.  Like it or not (and it is clear from a number of posts that some do not) we, in these islands, including Ireland, are all in this together.   Even if those people who believe in devolution are successful in destroying a great and beautiful country, we are still in the same place and inextricably linked.  

We succeed or fail together in all things.  

When Rugby went formally professional there was a significant upheaval.  Grand old clubs like Richmond and London Scottish almost died and still do not have the prominence they once had.   However, I also believe that the structures Rugby put in place when lifting itself out of the amateur era generally did work for that transitory period.  But that was then.  It is entirely realistic to expect those structures would need to evolve as Rugby grows.  And Rugby does need to grow and change, or it goes backwards.  I would put myself loosely in the camp of favouring a true B&I league, although even this needs to be looked at in the larger context of what is best for the growth of Rugby on the macro scale.  But nothing works when the atmosphere is emotive, reactive, combustible, and frankly juvenile.

Well, PRL have created this situation by trusting the French over Europe. Did no one at PRL study European history?


While the nostalgic part of me would like to see more meaningful cross border games than the LV= provides, the realistic part of me says no. Mainly because a 30 game season in an attritional league, which would still feature relegation, will not be good for player welfare.

I have not read of the RPA making any statement on this issue.

As a supporter of a Premiership team, I'm happy with the way thing are at the moment. Despite what others might say, I think we have a fantastic league that is a really good product (I'm disgusted at myself for using that term).

Being mercenary for a second. What are we expecting the Welsh regions to bring to the table in terms of the league? Can we definitely expect them to stop hemorrhaging players to France? The Premiership isn't a financial promised land, it is a cut throat business and there is no guarantee of that the regions would thrive in this atmosphere. We could end up letting terribly weakened Welsh teams into the league who don't have the financial muscle to compete whom we can't relegate!

I wouldn't like to see the Irish, Scots and Italians screwed over, especially as I see no real benefit for AP.

Griff wrote:I hope the regions read this thread and take heed. DO NOT JOIN!

They don't want us and it has no long term viability = suicide.

Really!?

3 people have voted no... and that apparantly is a wrap up of all English fans.

Most of my rugby following friends... and there is a lot of them but they just don't have the time, interest or inclination to come on this forum... think that an Anglo Welsh league or even a British & Irish league is a great idea.

Well no, 5 people voted no (2 don't support a premiership or championship side, I was one). 2 said yes. The other forum I mentioned had about 70 votes and 11% were for Wenglo.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Well, PRL have created this situation by trusting the French over Europe. Did no one at PRL study European history?


While the nostalgic part of me would like to see more meaningful cross border games than the LV= provides, the realistic part of me says no. Mainly because a 30 game season in an attritional league, which would still feature relegation, will not be good for player welfare.

I have not read of the RPA making any statement on this issue.

Must.... resist... urge... to spout national stereotypes.... Aaaaaaaghhh!

Did it.

Never mentioned the war, surrendering, cheese, bicycles or onions at all.

A Wanglo league - I would prefer not to expand the Prem to include the 4 welsh regions.
I believe there was an article from Irvine yesterday as head of the championship clubs that basically said it would be ridiculous for the Prem to exclude the Welsh at the expense of the Championship sides.

All these ideas are being bandied around as there is fear that the H-Cup may not take place. From an English perspective should there be no H-Cup I would prefer the RFU and PRL to come up with an English alternative. One that develops the English game and not necessarily another unions.
I would prefer a return of the Tetley Bitter Cup competition or similar between Championship and Prem sides.
We have seen that the top half of the Championship tables - Bedfords, Bristols, Cornish Pirates, Leeds can be competitive with the Prem sides.
A return of the cup will give greater exposure to the championship players at a higher level and aid in youth development and player scouting.

I fail to see where the benefit is for the English teams in the Wanglo league.

I have had quite a big think about this. I think if there was an Anglo-Welsh league it would be at the detriment of the Championship clubs.

The AP isn't as competitive as it could be at the moment anyway. Poor Worcester and Newcastle seem to fit into that limbo of flitting between the Championship and AP.

We have enough of our problems plus I don't think the Welsh should abandon the Irish,Italians and Scots.

propdavid london I agree. I would also like to see a return of the tetley bitter cup competition. I think we could also include the 4 Welsh regions in that as a compromise.

beshocked - do you think we should dump the LV cup then too.
There wouldn't be much point in running the LV cup and a Domestic cup that includes the welsh.

Maybe what we really just need to do is raise the status of the LV if we want to include the Welsh.

OK - So, in the event of there being no H-Cup -
We could still have the - Premiership (as is), An LV cup with full strength teams, and a ramped up B&I Cup that includes Prem A-sides etc.

Surely that's enough fixtures?

I think if this was going to happen the time to do so was many years ago, possibly before the regions were formed. The then welsh premiership clubs could have been integrated with the top English leagues (maybe reverting to welsh only level below the championship), in the same way as Cardiff and Swansea are in the English football structure. To me that would have made more sense (for the welsh teams) than a celtic league.

But now... I don't see what would be in it for the English teams, unless the lure of 4 welsh teams with uncertain futures somehow makes the league more attractive to sponsors.

On the cup, it wasn't that many years ago that Birmingham/Solihull/Pertemps Bees beat Wasps and I would like to see it come back from a romantic point of view, but realistically, Saracens vs Ealing would just be a massacre and I think the premiership final at Twickenham has now taken the place of the cup final.

That's the beauty of a cup competition though bathman. We've seen the odd game in the FA cup.
Top of Prem vs bottom of Championship is the absolute extreme. Other matchups would be more even.
Sarries vs a Lon Welsh or Rotherham side may be a different kettle of fish.

I agree that if an integrated Wanglo league were to have developed that it should have been done years ago.

I honestly couldn't think of anything worse.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I honestly couldn't think of anything worse.

An English/Welsh/Irish league?   

Yes propdavid london dump the LV cup because it will turn back into the tetley's bitter cup but with the Welsh included.

If the Challenge cup can work in rugby league surely the tetley's bitter cup can be rejuvenated. None of this confusing Pool 3 plays Pool 4 nonsense.

Bathman in London Saracens would in all likelihood play a 3rd string side vs Ealing. You would see the youngsters and squad men.

It would be great because it would give the championship guys a chance to take on the bigger sides.

Worcester vs Saracens got an impressive 9.3k attendance despite Worcester not playing well.

A Tetley Bitter Cup competition would raise interesting issues with those Dual registered players.

You would have to have them set with one primary team for this competition. Then, maybe, if their primary regsistered team is knocked out they can play for their other side. Similar to the European Cup registration their is now.

I guess what we are primarily seeing here is that there isn't a need for the Welsh teams to join in the English Premiership. (From an English perspective).
Most supporters are happy to include the welsh in another cup type or a re-vamped LV format but on the whole the Premiership should remain as it is.

Are there any English Club supporters that would like the Welsh to be included? I would like to hear their opinion.

propdavid_london wrote:I guess what we are primarily seeing here is that there isn't a need for the Welsh teams to join in the English Premiership.  (From an English perspective).  
Most supporters are happy to include the welsh in another cup type or a re-vamped LV format but on the whole the Premiership should remain as it is.  

Are there any English Club supporters that would like the Welsh to be included?  I would like to hear their opinion.

Can't see the benefit in the big picture. For the short term it might be fun. Was always great for the Welsh clubs to come up or for us to go and play in Wales (though we used to get drubbed more often than not). Good matches and great fans.

Yes, there are issues in the Welsh game at the moment. But the Premiership should not be a solution for their business issues, nor do I feel it is right for Rugby in Wales. Before considering something like this, business issues need to be sorted first. For everyone.

Well said Doc.
Sort the business side out first and then we can see where we all are.

Interesting Scrum V video debate on the BBC -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25626215

You would have to have them set with one primary team for this competition. Then, maybe, if their primary regsistered team is knocked out they can play for their other side. Similar to the European Cup registration their is now.

True propdavid london but perhaps we should be moving away from dual registry.

I think Bedford are now suffering because of the dual registry which is in Sarries favour. In the past they would have had the likes of Short whose been loaned to Wasps and Crumpton to Quins. Ransom is another player they would probably want but he's now seen as part of the Sarries senior squad.


Hammerofthunor yes that could work. Perhaps for AP teams say they that they have to play a certain amount of youngsters from the academy too to encourage teams to nurture.

Dual registration is good for premiership clubs, good for the development of English international rugby, but bad for Championship clubs, terrible for a promoted Premiership club (unless it was a temporary relegation al la Newcastle, etc)

Hammer,
Can you please tell me why you think dual registration is bad for the Championship clubs? Not picking on your point at all. On the contrary, it is something I never considered very much, and I value your point of view.

Most Prem sides could probably field a team without the need of their dual registered players.
I suspect that fixing the players to their championship side to play in a Tetley bitter cup would be the ideal situation.
Maintains the strength of the championship sides and the prem teams get to see their dual registered youngsters perform against some more established premiership players and teams.
If they stand out against strong opposition then they might win a full time contract with a prem senior squad etc.

Hammer - agree with your point as it is now. Teams like Esher and Lond Scots are seeing real peaks and troughs in performance as 1 season they have a good squad with dual registrations and at moments notice they can have players pulled out for a prem fixture. Bad for continuity, and means sides struggle to build real momentum.

HammerofThunor wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I honestly couldn't think of anything worse.

An English/Welsh/Irish league?   

Now we're talking!

doctor_grey wrote:Hammer,
Can you please tell me why you think dual registration is bad for the Championship clubs?  Not picking on your point at all.  On the contrary, it is something I never considered very much, and I value your point of view.  

It means that they get access to young good players but they can be called away at a moments notice. So they can't rely on them being there, or if they do they get shafted when they're lost. Previously these players would be on perhaps season long loans or actual contracts (e.g. Twelvetrees). Also when they get promoted they don't have access to these players at all unless they take the contracts on.

Don't get me wrong there are short term benefits and if a premiership side is injury free they can keep them for the whole year. But that's the feeling I've got from championship side supporters.

The Jeff grows from strength to strenght with each passing week, why spoil it with the introduction of four poorly run/supported teams that can't keep hold of their star players.

Thanks for the interest but No thanks.

Don't really understand the options of the survey, but the idea of a Welsh/English league seems stupid, selfish and short-sighted to me. I would quite like to see a British & Irish league of some kind though - to roll the Aviva and Pro12 together. Though exactly how this would be done, I'm not quite sure! As for a European Cup - I just hope there's something that includes everyone!

Hammer, OK.  Thanks.  So a longer term deal, a one year contract or arrangement would be OK?  I can see how the prospect of losing a player at any time can make a good concept into a bad execution.  Every team at every level needs to plan.  Makes sense to me.

The whole fight between the WRU and the regions is because the regions WANT to keep hold of their star players - playing in the Jeff or something similar would give them the money and crowds needed to do so.

Are all Jeff teams making a profit ?

MarcusHalberstram wrote:Don't really understand the options of the survey, but the idea of a Welsh/English league seems stupid, selfish and short-sighted to me.  I would quite like to see a British & Irish league of some kind though - to roll the Aviva and Pro12 together.  Though exactly how this would be done, I'm not quite sure!  As for a European Cup - I just hope there's something that includes everyone!

If you support an English team (Premiership/Championship/other) select the option you want (16 team AW league, other form of AW league, not an AW league). I added options for those not supporting an English team so they do feel left out.

MarcusHalberstram wrote:Don't really understand the options of the survey, but the idea of a Welsh/English league seems stupid, selfish and short-sighted to me.  I would quite like to see a British & Irish league of some kind though - to roll the Aviva and Pro12 together.  Though exactly how this would be done, I'm not quite sure!  As for a European Cup - I just hope there's something that includes everyone!

by everyone do you mean everyone in Europe or do you mean everyone in the 6 Nation group?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I honestly couldn't think of anything worse.

An English/Welsh/Irish league?   

Now we're talking!

No Scots ?

Scot who ?

munkian wrote:The whole fight between the WRU and the regions is because the regions WANT to keep hold of their star players - playing in the Jeff or something similar would give them the money and crowds needed to do so.

Are all Jeff teams making a profit ?

Its not all about Profit, the Product is pretty important too.

The Jeff is doing just fine why risk that to save a poorly thought out experiment like the Welsh Regions.

I've said it many times that the Regions are doomed to fail unless the Welsh public buy into it, yes its grown but the game has grown quicker hence why they are being left behind and are growing more and more desperate with each passing season.

HammerofThunor wrote:

MarcusHalberstram wrote:Don't really understand the options of the survey, but the idea of a Welsh/English league seems stupid, selfish and short-sighted to me.  I would quite like to see a British & Irish league of some kind though - to roll the Aviva and Pro12 together.  Though exactly how this would be done, I'm not quite sure!  As for a European Cup - I just hope there's something that includes everyone!

by everyone do you mean everyone in Europe or do you mean everyone in the 6 Nation group?

Everyone in the 6N for sure, but I'd like at least a two tier structure with wider European rep (Romania, Spain etc.) included - which is basically what we already had in place anyway!

Its a professional sport, of course its all about profit, we can be sentimental all we want but at the end of the day its about filling the coffers.

I wouldn't say the regions alone are desperate - rugby as we all know it is in the balance

It appears pretty obvious to me that the whole Welsh in AP is nothing more than a tactic to get the RCC on the road.

The RRW have stated if they don't get the extra BT money then the only option is to go across the Bridge which has been corroborated by the PRL despite little to suggest it will actually happen . The unbelievable response from the WRU was to create yet more new sides with no players or fans . That bluff has been called and they have backed down to negotiate and assuming they want to provide as little funds as possible the extra BT money fills some of the gap. The HC is dead anyway as the French will probably pull out.

Deals need to be done asap not least as sponsorship and tv deals need to be agreed which the SRU & IRFU must be pushing for.

I fully expect the RRW to be in the successor to the Pro12 and the RCC with the French on board to be the euro comp. That just leaves Sky Murdoch - and they can just take a running jump and perhaps come back in few years with a decent tv deal, although I quite like the BT coverage of both the English and French leagues.

But without a decent Product there will never be any Profit.  

The Jeff is doing great why risk it (change the staus quo) to save four teams from another Union?

You have very different views to Bath's top brass.

What have Bath got to do with this?

I love the Jeff as it is and I don't want to change it to help out 4 teams which aren't even loved in their own Country.

Sorry mate nothing personal but I don't want the Regions and their mud throwing in the Jeff!  

i think it would be great, done in the right way. not as a knee-jerk reaction, or negotiating tactic in the RRW-WRU fight. but done in the right way i think it would improve the economics of the championship and premiership overall, and put club rugby on a sounder footing in both england and wales.

although i am english, i grew up in cardiff and am in theory half welsh so that may explain my apparent minority view.