Regional Rugby Wales - FAQs

Questions and answers about the war;

http://www.welshregions.com/?page_id=500

They're obviously biased but it puts their points across I suppose.

HammerofThunor wrote:They're obviously biased but it puts their points across I suppose.

But it would be interesting the see the WRU answer those exact questions, no? That would enable a direct comparison of the public positions of both sides.

They have obviously been very selective in the parts of the PWC report that they have put up on that website. I don't see any of the parts that criticize the regions for inept financial management.

I understand the regions have just asked the WRU for £9m instead of the £6m they get as part of the PA. Why would you give financially inept people a 50% rise in payments? So they can go out and sign some more cheap Romanian props or Canadian wingers. Don't think so. Regions are dead. Long live the new real regions.

Its pretty much what one would expect them to say.

They have had years of buying in expensive players and getting nowhere.

Time for a radical change

Sometimes when you're in the thick of it all the obvious solutions seem beyond everyone's grasp.

The current club run, benefactor backed system is at odds with the needs of "Team Wales." You get a sense of that in the RRW FAQ:

"The Regions are completely committed to providing players for the national team, which is evidenced by the fact that the Welsh national coaches benefit from having greater access to players outside of the recognised international window than almost any others in the Northern hemisphere.
However, it can’t be that the Regions have to bear all that cost themselves, particularly at a time when the amazing success of the Welsh national team in recent years has led to a dramatic increase in the market value of our top players.
The market value of an International player can double, treble or even more in a three-year period. As soon as a player is selected to play for Wales, their visibility in the global “shop window” increases dramatically, as does the amount that clubs outside Wales with far greater revenues from TV deals are prepared to pay.
At the current funding levels, and when you factor in both the time that these players are unavailable to the Regions and the cost of employing replacements for when they are away, employing leading Welsh internationals is becoming increasingly uneconomical. The WRU have called on the Regions to run their businesses more professionally, yet have criticised them when it comes to the business decision of spending money on players that they haven’t got or for letting Welsh internationals leave."

You read on and this comes up:

"Premiership Rugby Ltd (PRL), which represents the English clubs, negotiate their own television and media deals and with RFU payments and TV can afford to contract high-level squad players that play during the international window – as can Irish and Scottish teams who are owned by Unions and pay ALL player and coaching costs."

For me that's where the big problem is. The union want control so that Team Wales benefits. RRW want control so that they benefit. I believe the structure is totally wrong. WRU and RRW are pulling in opposite directions, almost by definition. That's why I believe the WRU are planning to kill off the existing regions by hook or by crook. One thing I am certain of is that we can't afford a long drawn out battle over this. We need a lasting, workable resolution to this situation ASAP. IMHO that means a celtic regional model ala SANZAR. The only stable version of that I can see working is Union run regions. My reason - Team Wales is the great cash cow and will always be the primary driver in securing the future of welsh rugby and so it has to be our priority. I don't believe the current arrangement will in future serve Wales best - not by design, but by the lack of design.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:For me that's where the big problem is. The union want control so that Team Wales benefits. RRW want control so that they benefit. I believe the structure is totally wrong. WRU and RRW are pulling in opposite directions, almost by definition. That's why I believe the WRU are planning to kill off the existing regions by hook or by crook. One thing I am certain of is that we can't afford a long drawn out battle over this. We need a lasting, workable resolution to this situation ASAP. IMHO that means a celtic regional model ala SANZAR. The only stable version of that I can see working is Union run regions. My reason - Team Wales is the great cash cow and will always be the primary driver in securing the future of welsh rugby and so it has to be our priority. I don't believe the current arrangement will in future serve Wales best - not by design, but by the lack of design.

When I look at this, I see Regions which were set up by the WRU with independent ownership and the WRU acts surprised when the independent ownership acts independently. If indeed the WRU directly or indirectly kills off the Regions, I would be very concerned about the on-going credibility of the WRU. How could any future business partner ever fully trust the WRU? I wouldn't. They seem to me to be all about the WRU (as opposed to Welsh Rugby) and nothing else.

doctor_grey wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:For me that's where the big problem is. The union want control so that Team Wales benefits. RRW want control so that they benefit. I believe the structure is totally wrong. WRU and RRW are pulling in opposite directions, almost by definition. That's why I believe the WRU are planning to kill off the existing regions by hook or by crook. One thing I am certain of is that we can't afford a long drawn out battle over this. We need a lasting, workable resolution to this situation ASAP. IMHO that means a celtic regional model ala SANZAR. The only stable version of that I can see working is Union run regions. My reason - Team Wales is the great cash cow and will always be the primary driver in securing the future of welsh rugby and so it has to be our priority. I don't believe the current arrangement will in future serve Wales best - not by design, but by the lack of design.

When I look at this, I see Regions which were set up by the WRU with independent ownership and the WRU acts surprised when the independent ownership acts independently.  If indeed the WRU directly or indirectly kills off the Regions, I would be very concerned about the on-going credibility of the WRU.  How could any future business partner ever fully trust the WRU?  I wouldn't.  They seem to me to be all about the WRU (as opposed to Welsh Rugby) and nothing else.  

I have complete sympathy with your point of view. In other words, it's a complete horlicks. The WRU are forcing the issue and are not acting openly with regards to their intent. All true. I'm not sure if it is as black and white as it being all about the WRU. I'm actually pretty convinced they think they're doing the right thing. I'm trying to look at it pragmatically. The whole saga is extremely damaging to Welsh rugby. I think the WRU have the upper hand. I think the sooner it's resolved the better so I am keen for all parties to very quickly open their eyes to the most likely outcome here and get on with sorting out what precisely is going to be the structure of Welsh rugby for the foreseeable future.

I agree that both sides have culpability in the current situation.  And the end result will be to damage Welsh Rugby, which is bad.  I believe there has to be a better way forwards. And I don't believe the Regions joining the Premiership is the right thing to do.

I was concerned about the future if the WRU go ahead as they are strongly rumoured to do.  Almost no one will work with them.

doctor_grey wrote:I agree that both sides have culpability in the current situation.  And the end result will be to damage Welsh Rugby, which is bad.  I believe there has to be a better way forwards.  And I don't believe the Regions joining the Premiership is the right thing to do.    

I was concerned about the future if the WRU go ahead as they are strongly rumoured to do.  Almost no one will work with them.

Absolutely and I stumbled across the following today regarding the player release row (Gat's 13 day rule) that erupted in 2008 and was settled in the high court. I remember being narked about it at the time as Cardiff had a fine team at last with a good chance of winning a trophy. Interestingly, after the WRU won the battle, Gatland stepped in and proposed a compromise which satisfied the regions as it allowed the players time to prepare for the EDF. The result was that Cardiff and the Os reached the semis and the former won the competition.

"WRU's High Court player-row win (24 October 2008)
The Welsh Rugby Union has won a High Court battle with Wales' four regions over the player-release row.
Wales coach Warren Gatland wanted the players in training from Monday ahead of the Saturday 8 November Test against South Africa, but the regions rebelled.
The WRU said: "Judge Havelock Allan QC recognised the Test match is the most important factor, not the politics."
Regions boss David Moffett said: "This causes a serious deterioration in relations between us and the WRU."
The row erupted on Scrum V earlier this month when Gatland revealed the regions had turned down his request for players to be released while the they were involved in EDF Energy Cup commitments.
The rumpus has rumbled on ever since with each side taking increasingly-entrenched stands, culminating in Friday's legal action......"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7687755.stm

"WRU accused of showing contempt (17 October 2008)
The Welsh regions have accused the WRU of "displaying contempt" for them in turning down a compromise deal over player release for the autumn Tests.
The Welsh Rugby Union wanted more than five days to prepare for the South Africa test but their proposal has sparked a public war of words.
"It has become apparent that reaching agreement on extended player release is unlikely," read a regions' statement.
The WRU responded: "The statement is inaccurate and misleading."
Ospreys chiefs Roger Blyth and Mike Cuddy, Scarlets chief executive Stuart Gallagher, Dragons boss Gethin Jenkins and Blues chief exec Bob Norster have signed a statement which accuses the governing body of "offering then reneging" on agreements......"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7674876.stm

To add, I honestly believe that the WRU and RRW will never see eye to eye with the current personnel involved as there's so much water under the bridge now that they couldn't even agree on the colour of Poopie. Change has to happen in some shape or form.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I agree that both sides have culpability in the current situation.  And the end result will be to damage Welsh Rugby, which is bad.  I believe there has to be a better way forwards.  And I don't believe the Regions joining the Premiership is the right thing to do.    

I was concerned about the future if the WRU go ahead as they are strongly rumoured to do.  Almost no one will work with them.

Absolutely and I stumbled across the following today regarding the player release row (Gat's 13 day rule) that erupted in 2008 and was settled in the high court. I remember being narked about it at the time as Cardiff had a fine team at last with a good chance of winning a trophy. Interestingly, after the WRU won the battle, Gatland stepped in and proposed a compromise which satisfied the regions as it allowed the players time to prepare for the EDF. The result was that Cardiff and the Os reached the semis and the former won the competition.  

"WRU's High Court player-row win (24 October 2008)
The Welsh Rugby Union has won a High Court battle with Wales' four regions over the player-release row.
Wales coach Warren Gatland wanted the players in training from Monday ahead of the Saturday 8 November Test against South Africa, but the regions rebelled.
The WRU said: "Judge Havelock Allan QC recognised the Test match is the most important factor, not the politics."
Regions boss David Moffett said: "This causes a serious deterioration in relations between us and the WRU."
The row erupted on Scrum V earlier this month when Gatland revealed the regions had turned down his request for players to be released while the they were involved in EDF Energy Cup commitments.
The rumpus has rumbled on ever since with each side taking increasingly-entrenched stands, culminating in Friday's legal action......"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7687755.stm

"WRU accused of showing contempt (17 October 2008)
The Welsh regions have accused the WRU of "displaying contempt" for them in turning down a compromise deal over player release for the autumn Tests.
The Welsh Rugby Union wanted more than five days to prepare for the South Africa test but their proposal has sparked a public war of words.
"It has become apparent that reaching agreement on extended player release is unlikely," read a regions' statement.
The WRU responded: "The statement is inaccurate and misleading."
Ospreys chiefs Roger Blyth and Mike Cuddy, Scarlets chief executive Stuart Gallagher, Dragons boss Gethin Jenkins and Blues chief exec Bob Norster have signed a statement which accuses the governing body of "offering then reneging" on agreements......"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7674876.stm

To add, I honestly believe that the WRU and RRW will never see eye to eye with the current personnel involved as there's so much water under the bridge now that they couldn't even agree on the colour of Poopie. Change has to happen in some shape or form.

Absolutely. What that change will look like is anyone's guess. I just hope to Grud it's something sensible and long lasting. As a fan I'm totally sick of this crap.

doctor_grey wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:For me that's where the big problem is. The union want control so that Team Wales benefits. RRW want control so that they benefit. I believe the structure is totally wrong. WRU and RRW are pulling in opposite directions, almost by definition. That's why I believe the WRU are planning to kill off the existing regions by hook or by crook. One thing I am certain of is that we can't afford a long drawn out battle over this. We need a lasting, workable resolution to this situation ASAP. IMHO that means a celtic regional model ala SANZAR. The only stable version of that I can see working is Union run regions. My reason - Team Wales is the great cash cow and will always be the primary driver in securing the future of welsh rugby and so it has to be our priority. I don't believe the current arrangement will in future serve Wales best - not by design, but by the lack of design.

When I look at this, I see Regions which were set up by the WRU with independent ownership and the WRU acts surprised when the independent ownership acts independently.  If indeed the WRU directly or indirectly kills off the Regions, I would be very concerned about the on-going credibility of the WRU.  How could any future business partner ever fully trust the WRU?  I wouldn't.  They seem to me to be all about the WRU (as opposed to Welsh Rugby) and nothing else.  

No doubt about it and the BBC articles I just posted prove it. Roger didn't give a monkeys about the regions competing in the EDF back in 2008.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
Absolutely. What that change will look like is anyone's guess. I just hope to Grud it's something sensible and long lasting. As a fan I'm totally sick of this crap.

Roger out and Gallacher out for a kick off.
Roger because all he cares about is himself, team wales and paying off the MS quicker than it should be.
Gallacher because he's Gallacher.

doctornickolas wrote:They have obviously been very selective in the parts of the PWC report that they have put up on that website. I don't see any of the parts that criticize the regions for inept financial management.

I understand the regions have just asked the WRU for £9m instead of the £6m they get as part of the PA. Why would you give financially inept people a 50% rise in payments? So they can go out and sign some more cheap Romanian props or Canadian wingers. Don't think so. Regions are dead. Long live the new real regions.

Aye the regions need shooting for signing the PA in the first place, all those years ago. What were they thinking?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:They have obviously been very selective in the parts of the PWC report that they have put up on that website. I don't see any of the parts that criticize the regions for inept financial management.

I understand the regions have just asked the WRU for £9m instead of the £6m they get as part of the PA. Why would you give financially inept people a 50% rise in payments? So they can go out and sign some more cheap Romanian props or Canadian wingers. Don't think so. Regions are dead. Long live the new real regions.

Aye the regions need shooting for signing the PA in the first place, all those years ago. What were they thinking?

Perhaps they were thinking everyone was acting in good faith?

doctor_grey wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:They have obviously been very selective in the parts of the PWC report that they have put up on that website. I don't see any of the parts that criticize the regions for inept financial management.

I understand the regions have just asked the WRU for £9m instead of the £6m they get as part of the PA. Why would you give financially inept people a 50% rise in payments? So they can go out and sign some more cheap Romanian props or Canadian wingers. Don't think so. Regions are dead. Long live the new real regions.

Aye the regions need shooting for signing the PA in the first place, all those years ago. What were they thinking?

Perhaps they were thinking everyone was acting in good faith?  

Lol;

"Ospreys chiefs Roger Blyth and Mike Cuddy, Scarlets chief executive Stuart Gallagher, Dragons boss Gethin Jenkins and Blues chief exec Bob Norster have signed a statement which accuses the governing body of "offering then reneging" on agreements...."

Everyone is watching football in Wales now so who cares about any of the small rugby clubs?

The infamous Participation Agreement;
http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/8688.php

Cardiff Dave wrote:The infamous Participation Agreement;
http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/8688.php

  I didn't notice the date on that at first!

  [quote="Toast"]Everyone is watching football in Wales now so who cares about any of the small rugby clubs?[/quote]  

Deadline day is here.

I'm almost going to be surprised if anything happens, I'm half expecting Roger Lewis to take his mask off and be Jeremy Beadle...

Anyway, happy new year to you all.   

ps. dont even get me started on football, being a sports fan in cardiff is hard work all round right now.

Can anyone tell me is the money the wru gives the regions taken out of what the yearly turn over is or is it included. Like last year or maybe the year before the wru ad a turn over of £60, 000, 000 if that's the case couldn't they afford to give the regions more

Turnover is not profit WB.

Oh my bad I mixed them up cheers though but I do believe there should be more money on the table

Their protestations about an unknown future ring a bit hollow; everyone in Europe is in the same boat and the only reason there is doubt over the Pro12 is because of this.

I understand theres doubt but the dotted line has to bw signed today or tomorrow for the welsh clubs and wru agreement

Comfort wrote:Deadline day is here.

I'm almost going to be surprised if anything happens, I'm half expecting Roger Lewis to take his mask off and be Jeremy Beadle...

Say what you like about Roger Lewis, but do not speak ill of the dead!  

Notch wrote:Their protestations about an unknown future ring a bit hollow; everyone in Europe is in the same boat and the only reason there is doubt over the Pro12 is because of this.

Don't compalin if the Heinaken Cup dies, and the Welsh and Italians leave, you'll only have to beat Glasgow and Edindburgh to have the 4 most successful teams in Europe!   

welshboii15 wrote:I understand theres doubt but the dotted line has to bw signed today or tomorrow for the welsh clubs and wru agreement

Well the dotted line hasn't been signed, the WRU still cannot be seen and RRW still have that amusing silly walk.
So we are where we were yesterday basically, but it's tremendously exciting stuff nonetheless.
A meeting on the cards methinks to talk about the stuff that needed talking about 2-ish year ago.

Plenty of time, so nowt to worry about;
"The regions stated: "A solution must be reached by the end of January 2014."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25562387