England Fly-Half Six Nations

Danny Cipriani

Cipriani is playing extremely well at the moment. His defence has improved immeasurably. His game management, tactical kicking and ability to exploit the gap and create space for others, is at times, a wonder to watch. He's in form and playing with confidence. Many spectators including Clive Woodward and Ian Mcgeechan are calling for Lancaster to make space for him in the England team. He certainly possesses the x-factor. Question marks will always surround his attitude, but he's been working with Steve Black (Wilkinson's mentor) for the past six months, and I think this has helped him keep on the straight and narrow. Getting hit by a bus may have helped him reevaluate his lifestyle as well!

Owen Farrell

The incumbent. His attitude and character cannot be questioned, his goalkicking is accurate and nerveless, whilst his positivity is infectious. However, his ability to manage the game, exploit space for his outside backs and test the defence himself are still not up to international standard for a fly half. He has huge potential, but can this be realised before the world cup finals? It is admirable the way in which he deals with pressure for such a young man, but maybe a positional switch to 12, with a creative 10 inside him and a more powerful strike runner at 13 (Tuilagi/Burrell) would help his development.

Toby Flood

Questions marks currently surround Floods future. Toulon are interested and seem to be his most likely destination, as the replacement for Wilkinson. However, it is important to remember, Flood is currently England's most experienced players with 60 caps, and at 28 he is arguably in his prime. Unlike Farrell, he has the ability to get the backline moving and works well with players such as Chris Ashton, Manu Tuilagi and Ben Foden. He also has an eye for the gap, a strong kicking game and a good attitude. I have a feeling that if he makes a decision to move abroad, England will not consider him for the six nations.

Freddie Burns

Last year was like a dream for young Fred. He won his first cap in the monumental win against the mighty all blacks, he then went on to win a couple of caps in the tour to Argentina (whilst Farrell was with the Lions and Flood was given time off). However, in more recent times, Fred hasn't been given much of a chance. Overlooked in the autumn for Farrell and Flood, he had to make do with a place in the training squad. His current form has been of a low standard, this may be due to the decision he has to make about where he will play next season. Leicester remain interested, but Burns yearns to play in the blue, black and white of Bath, although the romans are currently settled at fly half with Ford and Heathcote. Burns is very much an attack minded 10, who relies on his instincts and strong kicking game. Although it is important to note, he is small of stature and his weak defence can be exploited by the better sides.

George Ford

His potential has been, and still is, absolutely huge. His tactical kicking, kicking from hand and goal kicking are all strong aspects of his game. His passing ability is great, whilst he is surprisingly fast with an eye for the gap. His defence has improved over the course of the season, but he still needs to work hard on bulking up and his physicality, if he wants to make the transition from great club player, to a full fledged international. I think the 2015 world cup may come a little too soon for Ford, but he's certainly going to be in the mix if his form continues to be of these standards.

I would like to see Burns given a go.

We now know what Farrell can and can't do, he is a safe option but doesn't give us much go forward apart from his kicking, we need to know what Burns can do at this level in the 6 nations.

Never been a fan of Floods, and Cips whilst improving I can't see SL giving him a go unless he is faced with a long injury list.
Too soon for Ford although he wouldn't let anyone down but he is down the pecking order.

Farrels name is inked in to the teamsheet. It would have to be something drastic for him to lose that spot.

I take it most of the people voting for Cipriani aren't sale fans. I am not knocking him, but I think he needs to put in consistently strong performances for a while before he should be considered for England and there are still the defensive weaknesses. We (Sale ) have been very up and down over the last couple of years, so it is difficult to really appraise his performance - you wouldn't say he has cemented the no 10 shirt yet.

Taking note of the word "Should" in the question then I don't think any of the options has the right to say they should be the fly-half, none of them are anywhere near complete players. Farrell is at best functional and the man in possession, and will be the fly-half, but I am not convinced that he has the all round skills. Burns looks to have the best all round skill set - people questioned his defensive tackling but he impressed me with his determination in the Argentina tests in the summer and his kicking was good. But he seems to have dropped off so far this season, behind a generally poor Gloucester pack and suffering from a lack of confidence.

People have been praising Cipriani all season, but they must be watching different games from me, because although he is undoubtedly better than he has been for many a year, he's not producing anything that looks internationally notable or above the other candidates.

I've long been a Burns fan and would have liked him to have had more opportunites before now, but he really doesn't look in any sort of form at the moment, irrespective of Gloucester's pack issues.

Probably the best performances I've seen from this group of players this season have been Ford's, but along with many would question whether he needs the full season at his new club before sending him into the 6N cauldron. I think I'd still at least get him training with the EPS on current form though.

Farrell to start.

Please don't play either Burns or Ford against teams like Wales, France and Scotland with the big number 12's running at them. They aren't ready yet.

Cipriani is a joke and if I was English wouldn't want him anywhere near my team, he seems a bit toxic and more about the love of the fame than the rugby. Like Henson, full of himself and was given to much by the media.

It's clear the only person going forward at 10 now is Owen Farrell with Toby as a pretty good cover. I always thought Charlie Hodgeson should have been given more of a shot.
I hear all this who should be 10 and it's made out that it a real hard choice because there as so many options. Truth is you haven't, just like we don't. I think Flood is your best option but Farrell is seen as the way forward by your coaching team which is fair enough.
I want us to consistently stick with Biggar now for the next few season, I feel he is the way forward. Owen farrell has proven he can cut it at the international level and he is possibly the way forward for you until Ford or Burns come of age.

No doubt come the Six Nations Farrell will still be your number 1 number 10. I like Flood more but that might be because Farrell seem like a bit of a   

Can burn's dad coach?

Stick Burns in with Cips on the bench, get Brown to do their tackling for them, should be interesting anyway.

Brown looked horribly out of form in that HC match I watched on the weekend. Terrible knock on bombed a try and he seemed to have great trouble reading his defensive lines.

Brown had a relatively poor game, true

I know based on previous posts that your a big Cipriani fan robshaw4england but where exactly do you get 'His defence has improved immeasurably' from? From what I've seen this year he seems to have matured a little as a 10 and his game management and decision making have been better but I've seen no evidence yet that his defense is anything but poor and not club standard let alone anywhere near international standard.

For me it depends on how England want to play. If they continue with the current structured almost RL back play style then it may as well be Farrell for his defense and kicking ability. If they are going to try and play a more unstructured fluid style like the top international teams backs play (eg NZ & Aus) then I would like to see Burns given a try. Can't see that happening anytime soon though.

Starting 10 for England is Farrell. After him,??? toss of a coin really.

Have not seen how Burns is playing this year, so cannot comment on his selection.

Flood on the other hand seemed to pick up a a injury at the week end. Will he be fit enough come the 6ns?

Cipriani????? Will he really do enough to get in front of Ford? Dont know is the answer, but might do him good to be around the England set up though.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Brown looked horribly out of form in that HC match I watched on the weekend. Terrible knock on bombed a try and he seemed to have great trouble reading his defensive lines.

1 game and that's horribly out of form??

yappysnap wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Brown looked horribly out of form in that HC match I watched on the weekend. Terrible knock on bombed a try and he seemed to have great trouble reading his defensive lines.

1 game and that's horribly out of form??

It's a slow rugby week and there's lite to be controversial about...

Too true.

Couldn't you just try to not be controversial?

GE is an attention seeker, probably bottle fed, needs constant reinforcement to maintain a healthy ego.

Sorry that was an auto-correct failure, should've said "little" rather than "lite" and "conversational" rather than "controversial"

Alot depends on who plays at 12 and 13 i think.

If its Twelvetreees or Eastmond theres creativity...that means the big focus of creativitiy isnt only on Farrell.

If its Barritt or Burrell (though he has a bit more to his game) i think either Farrell needs to play flatter etc or we need something else at ten.

However having Barritt or Burrell at 12 makes up for any short comings in potential defences of Ford, Burns,....or the returning messiah Cipriani...

Burns has really struggled this year, I think it is largely down to indecision regarding his future - he looked in a bad way after the Tigers loss.

He should've been given more of a chance last Autumn as the form 10 but wasn't even named in the original EPS! Now he's out of form and less likely to play, so I'd have to go for Farrell.

EnglishReign wrote:Burns has really struggled this year, I think it is largely down to indecision regarding his future - he looked in a bad way after the Tigers loss.

He should've been given more of a chance last Autumn as the form 10 but wasn't even named in the original EPS! Now he's out of form and less likely to play, so I'd have to go for Farrell.

Perhaps playing behind one of the worst packs in the league has had an effect on him?   

Scrumpy wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:Burns has really struggled this year, I think it is largely down to indecision regarding his future - he looked in a bad way after the Tigers loss.

He should've been given more of a chance last Autumn as the form 10 but wasn't even named in the original EPS! Now he's out of form and less likely to play, so I'd have to go for Farrell.

Perhaps playing behind one of the worst packs in the league has had an effect on him?   

At least we've got an excuse   

Unless Farrell is injured, he will be the starting 10 for the 6N. SL refuses to drop Ashton despite his lack of tackling, passing and positional awareness, so he is hardly likely to drop the FH who has playing pretty well.

I don't think any of the other youngster options are there.

Burns has been poor and that can't all be attributed to the Gloucester weak front 5.

Ford has been good for Bath but I don't think he is ready for international rugby, he kicks too much out of hand, off the tee he is unreliable and seeing as he went a whole game without passing to the 12 (Eastmond), he is hardly the man to get the English backline going.

Cipriani... Just no. A decent game in the Amlin against a championship level side doesn't mean he is ready for international rugby. A perfect Spencer/Carter hybrid he is not.

All seem to have their supporters in the media, without doing much to suggest they could do a better job than Farrell. You could argue that Myler has been the best English FH this season, but I don't think he is seen as an international player.

Myler arguably has the easiest ride of any 10 in the league and still doesn't look the best fly half out there most weekend.

Agree with all of your other points Bathman. Only thing I'd add is that Farrell and Cips have both shown the ability to up their games for Int duty no matter how they're playing for their clubs. I'd stick with Farrell for the moment and just get some more support for him in the backs.

yappysnap Cipriani has had one really good game for England - vs Ireland. That's all. Though saying that he's put in the graft at club level. Still only 26 so deserves another shot at the 10 shirt.

bathman in london let's be fair. Lancaster would have picked Wade and Yarde if they weren't injured. Ashton is the joint top try scorer in the HC so it's not all bad.

In regards to Cipriani, it's not just one Amlin match. He's been good in quite a few matches.

I think you are being harsh on Ford actually. I think like Farrell he is instructed to play in a restrictive way due to the gameplan. Both fly halves are encouraged to kick the ball more than we would like because the emphasis is on territory. Bath have won a lot of matches with this formula even if not that exciting to watch. If he's poor from the tee... well that's a more serious problem.

Farrell Jr has his flaws but he's generally a decent place kicker - probably the best of all the contenders. For all the criticism he gets he at least looks like he is relatively comfortable at international level. Even when he had a poor first half vs Australia he pulled himself together to score a decisive try. Against the ABs, the best team in the world, twice he has kicked very well.

I can understand why he's not everyone's cup of tea but someone needs to step up and challenge him.

I think we all over hype Farrell's flaws. He is a very competent all round player. And while he isn't lightning quick there was definitely a lot more inventiveness and attack from him in the AI's. I think we'll see even more in the 6N's against weaker sides then Oz and NZ.

As said if he just has a couple of other players to share the load around him then he'll be fine.

Remember Wilko had Dawson, Catt/Greenwood and Tindall around him.

Agree with that yappysnap. I think people have unrealistically high expectations of a no 10.

In my opinion he's probably still the 2nd best fly half in the NH currently playing international rugby after Sexton - controversial I know.

When you read this thread you get the feeling our fly half predicament is not as bad as the likes of France,Wales,Italy,Scotland and even Ireland (if Sexton is injured).

I agree Farrell is inked in as a starting ten for the moment. He keeps the scoreboard ticking over, tackles well and is competent kicking out of hand. However, he hasn't managed to spark his backline yet. What I'd still like to see him do is stand that much flatter - standing deep really kills an attack before it's even started, which means in turn that if we had a gifted centre (I wish!) that we would struggle to get much out of him.

What I'd still like to see him do is stand that much flatter

He doesnt stand that deep for Saracens...so why is he standing so deep for England? Maybe he's being told to...

yappysnap wrote:

Remember Wilko had Dawson, Catt/Greenwood and Tindall around him.

He also had a running game when he was younger and effective.
He also stood out as a tackler in an age when almost every other half back in the game was a revolving door.
Now most fly halves can tackle fairly solidly (yes even Cipriani on occasion!)

Picking Farrell seriously limits what England can do. For Lancaster/Smith thats been OK and fitted the way they want their 9/10/12 to function so far. But if they want to unleash the backs more they need to find a more dynamic presence in that area.
No different to Johnson when he kept going back to post injuries Wilko (or Goode) every time the flashy stuff went wrong. It served England to a point, but attracted endless criticism at the same time.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Remember Wilko had Dawson, Catt/Greenwood and Tindall around him.

He also had a running game when he was younger and effective.
He also stood out as a tackler in an age when almost every other half back in the game was a revolving door.
Now most fly halves can tackle fairly solidly (yes even Cipriani on occasion!)

Picking Farrell seriously limits what England can do. For Lancaster/Smith thats been OK and fitted the way they want their 9/10/12 to function so far. But if they want to unleash the backs more they need to find a more dynamic presence in that area.
No different to Johnson when he kept going back to post injuries Wilko (or Goode) every time the flashy stuff went wrong. It served England to a point, but attracted endless criticism at the same time.

Oh Peter dont spoil the myth that all Johnny could do was kick....

As for the criticsim...im not remotely bothered what people say IF we are effective and efficient. Ie we dont have to set the fireworks off...as long as our backs use the ball to get to the try line consistantly...

I went Flood, he's still the best all round option in England.

Going forward it's a mixed bag with Farrell seeming the most likely option.

I've not been overly impressed with Ford, Cips has looked great in patches but is a ticking bomb waiting to explode into awfulness.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

Remember Wilko had Dawson, Catt/Greenwood and Tindall around him.

He also had a running game when he was younger and effective.
He also stood out as a tackler in an age when almost every other half back in the game was a revolving door.
Now most fly halves can tackle fairly solidly (yes even Cipriani on occasion!)

Picking Farrell seriously limits what England can do. For Lancaster/Smith thats been OK and fitted the way they want their 9/10/12 to function so far. But if they want to unleash the backs more they need to find a more dynamic presence in that area.
No different to Johnson when he kept going back to post injuries Wilko (or Goode) every time the flashy stuff went wrong. It served England to a point, but attracted endless criticism at the same time.

It's all that practise tackling buses that has helped.  

My problems with Flood are :

His health. The guy is a crock.
His long term commitment to England and the Toulon issue.
Hes not so good he has to be picked.

Farrel remains no.1 currently for me and if we had/pick better and more creative backs and importantly play with a more offensive attitude then we might see Farrell play in a manner we would appreciate more. No other candidate deserves to start ahead of him.

No.2 fly half would be Flood but if he is going to France then he must be immediately ditched and either Burns or Cipriani picked. Both offer something different and can kick goals. Depends on individual form and if pressed right now I would go for Burns, but Cips is playing well and if he delivers a few more good games then he will be a valid option. Ford looks great but I would leave him with Bath and the Saxons for now.

On burns vs cips as number 3 .... Ones been dropped by his club, the other was watched last night by Lancaster setting up attacking play to get a lead then controlling the game to defend it.

I'd lay small monies on him coming into the squad.

As far as the 6N goes I think we know the natural order of things. With Flood looking likely to commit to Toulouse he has to drop from the EPS. In all likelihood I don't think we'll see another FH come in to replace him.

The starting 10 will be Farrell without question followed by some cameo appearances by Burns. Burns has looked flaky this season he seems low on confidence as does the whole Glaws team. It's not just the pack's fault however, against Edinburgh he often took the wrong option and failed to manage the game well, not helped by Knoyle incidentally.

Nonetheless he's in the EPS and has performed well on the Argie tour and the bench is his spot I believe. Cipriani might get a Saxons call but so far as third choice goes I can't see Lancs going for anyone other than Myler. Not my choice by a long stretch but he fits the dependable, competent mould Lancs is looking for.

Ford would be my third choice. I don't understand the idea that Ford is a kicking FH that's eye wash. Indeed his place kicking is patchy at times which lets him down. His kicking from hand is truly excellent, his vision is good and his passing game whilst attacking the line himself is superb. The delays on some of his passes are really something. He was preferred to Farrell at U20 for exactly that reason. Given another season he could be the starting FH if he nails the consistency of his place kicking.