Finally the final World Tour Finals Final Thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

You heard it hear first. Popcorn available in the lobby.

[sirfredperry]

"Nadal leads the rivalry 22-16 and this will be their sixth meeting of the season (Nadal leads 3-2) and fourth in the season finale (Nadal leads 2-1 and their previous three meetings came in round robin play in 2007, ’09, ‘10). This will be their 19th meeting in a final (tied 9-9), which ties Nadal-Federer and trails Lendl-McEnroe (20)."

The above is from the ATP official site and shows just what an incredible rivalry this is. There's no reason why they will not meet many more times to come. A 39th meeting must put them high up the list of most meetings since the open era began. Mind you, Martina and Chrissie met, what, 80 times?

[JuliusHMarx]

A fit athlete's peak should be from about 23-30. Fed was 26 at Wimbledon 08. Arguably he played his finest two Fedal matches aged 30 (WTF 11 and IW 12). It is just wrong to try and argue that Fed was past his peak during 08-09.

23 - 30? No way. Certainly not in tennis terms. You only have to look at the history of tennis to come to that realisation. It's like saying Sampras was at his peak when he won his final USO. Peak means being able to play consistently at or near your best, week in, week out. Also to be young enough to fully adapt your game to changing conditions and the challenges presented by younger players. That simply doesn't apply to Fed from end of 2008 onwards.

[HM Murdock]

as Nadal always seemed to have the beating of Fed in him even in Fed's peak.

Slightly harsh. Even if we extend Fed's peak to include 2008, it's 12-6 overall and 3 - 5 (in Fed's favour) off clay.
I am impressed, however, that in your hands even an everyday word like 'always' can be used in hyperbolic fashion.

I've got to agree with Socal on this one.

Even if we limit Fed's peak to the end of 2007, the H2H was 8-6 in Rafa's favour.

That's Federer during his peak years and Rafa aged 21 or younger.

Once we go past 2007, it gets silly. Rafa wins 5 in a row and Roger's next win is not until Madrid 09 (when Rafa had had a 4 hour war with Novak the previous day!).

[Guest]

to be fair - Nadal has always led the H2H, which is what I suspect (but highly doubt) SoCal meant.

I think Lydian explained Nadal developed the Kryptonite shot that Federer, with his single handed backhand, could never overcome - something to do with the laws of physics or maybe chemistry (high bouncing, heavy spun ball to Federer's single handed backhand - resulting in GSM to Nadal in most circumstances).

Cumulative H2H at end of following years (Nadal - Federer)
2013 21-10
2012 18-10
2011 17-09
2010 14-08
2009 13-07
2008 12-06
2007 08-06
2006 06-03
2005 02-01
2004 01-00

[sirfredperry]

It could be pointed out that Fed was good enough to reach finals on Rafa's favourite clay where he invariably lost but Rafa was unable to do the same on some of Fed's favourite surfaces.
By the time Rafa did reach the US Open, Fed, despite having MPs, was unable to join him.
Fifteen of the Rafa-Rog matches have been on clay. It's certainly a little less one-sided on other surfaces.
Really, though, the Rafa/Nole rivalry is not only eclipsing the Fed-Rafa one but is also more of a level playing field in terms of age, fitness, surfaces etc. 22 v 16 at present to Rafa. Wonder what the final score will be.

[JuliusHMarx]

as Nadal always seemed to have the beating of Fed in him even in Fed's peak.

Slightly harsh. Even if we extend Fed's peak to include 2008, it's 12-6 overall and 3 - 5 (in Fed's favour) off clay.
I am impressed, however, that in your hands even an everyday word like 'always' can be used in hyperbolic fashion.

I've got to agree with Socal on this one.

Even if we limit Fed's peak to the end of 2007, the H2H was 8-6 in Rafa's favour.

The figures aren't in doubt and the H2H is clearly in Rafa's favour. But how does 8-6 mean that Rafa 'always' beat Fed?

[Guest]

When I enquired some time ago how Federer should/could have responded to counter Nadals high bouncing heavy spun balls to his backhand - I was told there were only two methods
a) grow another 5 inches
b) develop a double handed backhand.

I think Nadal is a supreme artist of top / side spin (he puts more spin on the ball than anyone else in the game by a fair margin), he also has supreme stamina, movement & mental strength.

Novak is not as good as Nadal in the spin department, but he has more on court intelligence & versatility, I think he has better movement than Nadal (Novak adds bendy body shapes), & he too has supreme stamina & mental strength.

[Henman Bill]

In some ways a fitting finish the season firstly as they were the two best players of the season and secondly as they are both unbeaten in the tournament.

Is Hawkeye around? There are plenty of tickets available on Viagogo for around £100 upper tier and £200 lower tier. I am sure that is a lot less that what Hawkeye was quoting for Federer-Nadal semi, which was interesting.

[JuliusHMarx]

£200 is a lot for a tennis match, isn't it? Even £100 + travelling costs make it very difficult for a family of four to attend.
No surprise it's not sold out at those prices.

Would it have cost less to buy them well in advance?

[HM Murdock]

as Nadal always seemed to have the beating of Fed in him even in Fed's peak.

Slightly harsh. Even if we extend Fed's peak to include 2008, it's 12-6 overall and 3 - 5 (in Fed's favour) off clay.
I am impressed, however, that in your hands even an everyday word like 'always' can be used in hyperbolic fashion.

I've got to agree with Socal on this one.

Even if we limit Fed's peak to the end of 2007, the H2H was 8-6 in Rafa's favour.

The figures aren't in doubt and the H2H is clearly in Rafa's favour. But how does 8-6 mean that Rafa 'always' beat Fed?

At risk of being Percy Pedant, Socal said Rafa always "seemed to have the beating" not "always beat".

Given that 6 of the their first 7 meetings were won by a teenaged Nadal, I'd say he did always seem to have the beating of Fed!

[Born Slippy]

It could be pointed out that Fed was good enough to reach finals on Rafa's favourite clay where he invariably lost but Rafa was unable to do the same on some of Fed's favourite surfaces.
By the time Rafa did reach the US Open, Fed, despite having MPs, was unable to join him.
Fifteen of the Rafa-Rog matches have been on clay. It's certainly a little less one-sided on other surfaces.
Really, though, the Rafa/Nole rivalry is not only eclipsing the Fed-Rafa one but is also more of a level playing field in terms of age, fitness, surfaces etc. 22 v 16 at present to Rafa. Wonder what the final score will be.

Fed has always struggled against Rafa on outdoor hard though. The H2H on that surface is probably similar to clay isn't it? Rafa won their first match on outdoor hard, led by two sets in their second before fatiguing and won pretty much every outdoor hard match since.

[Guest]

I was thinking of taping the match but I only have a four hour tape at my disposal.

[JuliusHMarx]

as Nadal always seemed to have the beating of Fed in him even in Fed's peak.

Slightly harsh. Even if we extend Fed's peak to include 2008, it's 12-6 overall and 3 - 5 (in Fed's favour) off clay.
I am impressed, however, that in your hands even an everyday word like 'always' can be used in hyperbolic fashion.

I've got to agree with Socal on this one.

Even if we limit Fed's peak to the end of 2007, the H2H was 8-6 in Rafa's favour.

The figures aren't in doubt and the H2H is clearly in Rafa's favour. But how does 8-6 mean that Rafa 'always' beat Fed?

At risk of being Percy Pedant, Socal said Rafa always "seemed to have the beating" not "always beat".

Given that 6 of the their first 7 meetings were won by a teenaged Nadal, I'd say he did always seem to have the beating of Fed!

Percy, I guess because they played so often on clay it altered perceptions of what happened on other courts.

[JuliusHMarx]

I was thinking of taping the match but I only have a four hour tape at my disposal.

I'm amazed you have any sort of tape at your disposal. Is it Beta-Max or VHS?

[Born Slippy]

A fit athlete's peak should be from about 23-30. Fed was 26 at Wimbledon 08. Arguably he played his finest two Fedal matches aged 30 (WTF 11 and IW 12). It is just wrong to try and argue that Fed was past his peak during 08-09.

23 - 30? No way. Certainly not in tennis terms. You only have to look at the history of tennis to come to that realisation. It's like saying Sampras was at his peak when he won his final USO. Peak means being able to play consistently at or near your best, week in, week out. Also to be young enough to fully adapt your game to changing conditions and the challenges presented by younger players. That simply doesn't apply to Fed from end of 2008 onwards.

Times change. Fed hasn't had to cope with significant changes (apart from some courts slowing c. 2002 when he was young). He hasn't suffered from illness affecting his recovery time (like Sampras). He did adapt/improve his game to cope with his younger rivals (see 2011-12). Perhaps during 08-09 he either lost a bit of focus or the pressure of going after the record got to him but physically he remained at his peak.

[HM Murdock]

Is Hawkeye around? There are plenty of tickets available on Viagogo for around £100 upper tier and £200 lower tier. I am sure that is a lot less that what Hawkeye was quoting for Federer-Nadal semi, which was interesting.

Hawkeye would also be interested to hear that attendance is down on last year.

Is there a player absent this year who was there last year?

[JuliusHMarx]

It could be pointed out that Fed was good enough to reach finals on Rafa's favourite clay  where he invariably lost but Rafa was unable to do the same on some of Fed's favourite surfaces.
By the time Rafa did reach the US Open, Fed, despite having MPs, was unable to join him.
  Fifteen of the Rafa-Rog matches have been on clay. It's certainly a little less one-sided on other surfaces.
  Really, though, the Rafa/Nole rivalry is not only eclipsing the Fed-Rafa one but is also more of a level playing field in terms of age, fitness, surfaces etc. 22 v 16 at present to Rafa. Wonder what the final score will be.

Fed has always struggled against Rafa on outdoor hard though. The H2H on that surface is probably similar to clay isn't it? Rafa won their first match on outdoor hard, led by two sets in their second before fatiguing and won pretty much every outdoor hard match since.

Yes, Rafa is well known for fatiguing in 5-set matches
Whereas Fed almost withdrawing with illness from the round before their first match is often overlooked.
They didn't play at all on outdoor hard in the 2007 - 2008 period and only twice in the 5 years 2006 - 2010 (Rafa won both).
Overall 6 - 2 Rafa, including 2 this year. I'm sure even you wouldn't consider this year part of Fed's peak

[JuliusHMarx]

A fit athlete's peak should be from about 23-30. Fed was 26 at Wimbledon 08. Arguably he played his finest two Fedal matches aged 30 (WTF 11 and IW 12). It is just wrong to try and argue that Fed was past his peak during 08-09.

23 - 30? No way. Certainly not in tennis terms. You only have to look at the history of tennis to come to that realisation. It's like saying Sampras was at his peak when he won his final USO. Peak means being able to play consistently at or near your best, week in, week out. Also to be young enough to fully adapt your game to changing conditions and the challenges presented by younger players. That simply doesn't apply to Fed from end of 2008 onwards.

Times change. Fed hasn't had to cope with significant changes (apart from some courts slowing c. 2002 when he was young). He hasn't suffered from illness affecting his recovery time (like Sampras). He did adapt/improve his game to cope with his younger rivals (see 2011-12). Perhaps during 08-09 he either lost a bit of focus or the pressure of going after the record got to him but physically he remained at his peak.

You mean apart from mono and his chronic back problem?

[Guest]

I was thinking of taping the match but I only have a four hour tape at my disposal.

I'm amazed you have any sort of tape at your disposal. Is it Beta-Max or VHS?

It's duct tape - I was hoping to do the world a favour.

[JuliusHMarx]

Is Hawkeye around? There are plenty of tickets available on Viagogo for around £100 upper tier and £200 lower tier. I am sure that is a lot less that what Hawkeye was quoting for Federer-Nadal semi, which was interesting.

Hawkeye would also be interested to hear that attendance is down on last year.

Is there a player absent this year who was there last year?

Tsonga?

[JuliusHMarx]

I was thinking of taping the match but I only have a four hour tape at my disposal.

I'm amazed you have any sort of tape at your disposal. Is it Beta-Max or VHS?

It's duct tape - I was hoping to do the world a favour.

Oh, don't give me straight lines like that - I'll end up banning myself!

[sirfredperry]

The above postings covering the Rafa-Rog rivalry also emphasise how much easier it is to analyse the Nole-Rafa match ups, given their ages and the fact that their peaks are pretty much co-inciding.
  Just wonder if Fed will EVER win another match against either of them. Interesting that both, as teenagers, were not wary of Rog in the same way as virtually everybody else was. Murray, too, seemed underawed by the great man.
 Nalby, Hewitt and, yes, Henman, had Rog's measure when Fed was much younger but he made them all pay.

[HM Murdock]

The Federer Djokovic H2H is an interesting one.

Roger went 4-0 up when Novak was still a teenager.

Since then, the gap in the H2H has generally been about 4 matches.

It's nowhere near as streaky as the Djokovic Nadal H2H.

[hawkeye]

Cumulative H2H at end of following years (Nadal - Federer)
2013 21-10
2012 18-10
2011 17-09
2010 14-08
2009 13-07
2008 12-06
2007 08-06
2006 06-03
2005 02-01
2004 01-00

So Matches won per year by Federer against Nadal follow this pattern

0,1,2,3,0,1,1,1,1,0

I would say that a tennis player of 30 is old. Nadal at 27 is being referred to as a veteran. I would agree with that and would also put Djokovic at 26 in the veteran category. Who said something about a tennis players career being made up of "just a handful of summers"? Sad but true...

Nore Staat. You also commented that Federer needed to grow 5 inches to have a better chance against Nadal. But one of the many things I like about this rivalry is that they are both amazingly the same height and weight. It is a fair fight when they play.

About the ticket pricing at the O2.

When I checked yesterday it showed the face value of the tickets. They were a lot cheaper bought in advance but still IMO expensive for one match and a doubles (about £80-£100). The Fed/Rafa semi wasn't just outselling the Djokovic semi but also final tickets. I don't think the schedule is ever good having a final on a Monday though.

Personally I think the whole event is very pricy compared even to Wimbledon. The biggest bargain there is £20 for a grounds pass. This year I saw Errani, Youzney, Almagro then for an extra £5 got a return ticket for court 1 and saw Nadal/Darces  followed by Wawrinka/Hewitt.

[barrystar]

A fit athlete's peak should be from about 23-30. Fed was 26 at Wimbledon 08. Arguably he played his finest two Fedal matches aged 30 (WTF 11 and IW 12). It is just wrong to try and argue that Fed was past his peak during 08-09.

I think you mean the WTF 2010 final when Nadal was the y/e No. 1 but Federer beat him handsomely in 3 sets taking the final set 6-1 and his backhand was a potent weapon rather than the usual defensive stroke that you are waiting to see collapse against the topspin FH onslaught.

Fed's absolute peak was 2007 in my view, he remained a wonderful player after that, but with hindsight he has never reached the heights he did in that year. It's not a question of age or fitness, just how well he played then and his inability to sustain quite those levels subsequently. Narrowing it down, his win at the Australian Open 2007 was the absolute peak in my view. I thought he'd go on like the Australian Open for the rest of the year, but there were those two shakey defeats at IW/Miami at the hands of Canas (who had a point to prove after Federer had indicated that the failed drugs test might not have an innocent explanation) and his weakest showing outside the slams since 2003 - sure he won Wimbledon and the US Open and the WTF and made the obligatory RG final, but Nadal and Djoko had clearly emerged as challengers who did not fear him and in the course of 2008 Murray had started beating him away from slams. From the AO onwards his career has involved an elegant and gutsy management of a slow decline punctuated by periods (some of them quite long) of extraordinarily sublime play. His greatest bastion has always been the slams, his decline outside them was quicker. I'm confident he can have a better 2014 than 2013, but he's not had a year to compare with 2007 since then.

[sirfredperry]

HE - apparently there is a gap between Bercy and the WTF next year so they can revert, I assume, to a Sunday final again as in the first years at 02.
  You can understand why they wanted to give the players as big a close-season as possible, but playing immediately after Paris was pretty crazy.
With an extra week between RG and Wimbledon in 2015 there appears to be some common sense breaking out with the scheduling, and not before time.

[socal1976]

I thought Oz 09 was a better match than Wim 08 - in terms of quality. Arguably Oz 12 was also superior. Those plus Rome 06 are my standout Fedal matches.

Nadal's final v. fed at AO 9 is no way in my mind BS even close to wimby, Federer collapsed in the 5th set mentally. It was not even the match of the tournament if I had to pick I would say the Verdasco v. Nadal semi the second longest match in AO history was far closer. A five setter with a one sided and disappointing 5th set is like great sex with no orgasm at the end. This match would not even be remembered if it was not fed v. Nadal. I can think of dozens five setter better than that one, it was great for 4 sets and anticlimactic in the fifth. And despite my respect for your tennis knowledge I wouldn't even rate AO 2012 at all, I never doubted Nadal would for second. Rome 06 was in my opinion actually the match I would say is the best match they have ever played even above Wimby as fed was super aggressive and charged the net regularly. Again the two best matches in this rivalry were in 06 and 08 for the last five years it has been outside of a couple of fed wins indoors at the WTF, a complete snoozer. More like watching an execution than a tennis match.

[Danny_1982]

  like great sex with no orgasm. Great analogy.

I didn't watch the AO09 final as I was on a stag do. But mrs_1982 did and tells me that it was great but not as good as Wimbledon 08.

I'd sooner watch a replay of that than Fedal today though to be brutally honest. I'm much more excited about tonight's match. Two players at their athletic peak. I expect lots of ridiculous gets and long rallies of conservative aggression.

I hope Novak wins because I slightly prefer his style. I think he will too.

[socal1976]

  like great sex with no orgasm. Great analogy.

I didn't watch the AO09 final as I was on a stag do. But mrs_1982 did and tells me that it was great but not as good as Wimbledon 08.

I'd sooner watch a replay of that than Fedal today though to be brutally honest. I'm much more excited about tonight's match.  Two players at their athletic peak. I expect lots of ridiculous gets and long rallies of conservative aggression.

I hope Novak wins because I slightly prefer his style. I think he will too.

Tipsy v. Ferrer USO 2012 was a way superior match to AO 09 between Fed and Nadal, the only thing that made that match particularly remembered is the names of the combatants. First four sets were great, but seriously the fifth set is the climax and it was a set that was unwatchable.

As for tonight I see it as a slight edge to Novak and a battle of the two best baseliners maybe ever meeting at their peaks this is why I enjoy their rivalry.

[naxroy]

bad schedule once again by atp

what if doubles match goes long?

[laverfan]

Bryans are struggling. This may be over in the next few minutes.

[Guest]

ahead in second tb though. Looks like a late start to Djoko Rafa

[Guest]

Also Julius wheres the popcorn? If theres no popcorn im a gonna trash the place  

[Guest]

match tb to decide the doubles, prolly finish about 8:00pm

[HM Murdock]

A five setter with a one sided and disappointing 5th set is like great sex with no orgasm at the end.

I play Bo3.

And usually lose in straights.

[HM Murdock]

A five setter with a one sided and disappointing 5th set is like great sex with no orgasm at the end.

I play Bo3.

And usually lose in straights.

[Guest]

Im straight sets, then get my partner a taxi home  

[laverfan]

Bryans done and dusted. Forheando/Marrero played a pretty good match. Bryans missed many set points.

[LuvSports!]

Im straight sets, then get my partner a taxi home    

Lucky guy

[HM Murdock]

Nice of the BBC give Novak an extra slam in the stats!

[socal1976]

A five setter with a one sided and disappointing 5th set is like great sex with no orgasm at the end.

I play Bo3.

And usually lose in straights.

LOL! poor Mrs. Murdoch, I am sure you can go the distance Murdoch that she kept you around so you must have at one time at least have had legs for the 5 setter.

[socal1976]

Im straight sets, then get my partner a taxi home    

I would call a cab but I am usually asleep within 3 minutes afterwards.

[LuvSports!]

WHoever wins the first set wins the match imo.

[LuvSports!]

Wow, that defence right there was fantastic, idemo nole!

[socal1976]

Djokovic has won 8 of first ten points and looks to be changing direction beautifully on the backhand up the line an excellent early sign for his success. Make that 9 of 11

[socal1976]

S and V nice Nole

[LuvSports!]

Nadal's length atm is poor.

[socal1976]

He is also making a few too many errors but he is getting pushed around in the rallies and constantly scrambling and hitting on the stretch don't think he has found his timing yet and Nole is up 3-0

[Guest]

Returning has been awesome - tends to negate the serve.

[socal1976]

Edberg in the stands still looks like he can play

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